Author Topic: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists  (Read 3362 times)

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Offline Calvin6s

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Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« on: January 07, 2015, 07:13:01 AM »
a
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 12:59:06 AM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online Chino

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2015, 07:22:51 AM »
I'm having a hard time finding the graphic stuff (I'm also at work). The most I've seen so far is a cop laying on the ground after being shot. It's a pretty shitty situation. However, these people were poking the beast. I'm not saying that makes this event any less tragic, but there's definitely a risk factor in the type of entertainment they create.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 08:00:16 AM by Chino »

Online Chino

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2015, 08:00:03 AM »
I don't get what you're asking.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2015, 09:28:12 AM »
Quote from: Q
If the Continuum has told you once, they have told you a thousand times: DON'T PROVOKE THE BORG!!!

Pretty much how I feel about things like this. I certainly support anybody's right to ridicule whoever they wish, but sometimes it's just not worth the hassle. Mohammed is certainly ripe for satire, just like God, Buddha and Colonel Sanders. Just be mindful of the inevitable consequences, and ideally make sure it's worth it.

At the same time, Westerners shouldn't overreact to these things. Kill crazy rampages happen and something like this falls nicely into my "shit happens" bucket. The fact that they're singularly motivated Moslems doesn't really make much difference, AFAIC. When you react to them acting out so much differently than any other murderous shithead then you're acting counterproductively.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2015, 09:39:32 AM »
I'm having a hard time finding the graphic stuff (I'm also at work). The most I've seen so far is a cop laying on the ground after being shot. It's a pretty shitty situation. However, these people were poking the beast. I'm not saying that makes this event any less tragic, but there's definitely a risk factor in the type of entertainment they create.

But didn't I get lambasted in a different thread for making the case that SOME PEOPLE take this stuff seriously?   Obviously, in a different context, and (hopefully) obviously I'm not a jihadist terrorist, but comes a point when you can't throw your hands in the air and make a oopsy face and say "But I'm a COMEDIAN!"   

Of course it goes without saying that in a perfect world no one - serious or comedic - should die for their words. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2015, 09:45:05 AM »
The fact that they're singularly motivated Moslems doesn't really make much difference, AFAIC. When you react to them acting out so much differently than any other murderous shithead then you're acting counterproductively.

Of course it makes a difference.  When somebody loses it and goes on a rampage, the same tragedy happens BUT it stops with the arrest or death of that person.  This is an organized movement.
That's a good observation but I don't think it matters since there will always be angry, homicidal dicks in the world. You kill Charles Whitman and you stop his rampage, just like when the GIGN deal with these assholes. Afterward, you do your best to prepare for the eventual James Huberty, just like you do for whoever the next guys to don the green headbands.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2015, 10:18:58 AM »
On a somewhat disconnected note, I'm not very happy that we are about to hand over about 170+ Abrams tanks to Iraq, amongst other way too recent gen military equipment.

Maybe we should just put the shipping label as:  To: ISIS (c/o Iraqi *military*)
I certainly see your concern there, and it's a legitimate one. Iraq doesn't seem capable of hanging onto their hardware at the moment. One thing I'd be curious about is which variant they'd be getting. The M1A1 platform seems to have been in a constant state of evolution.

However, I suppose the threat is mostly to Syria in this case, and we should actually get some good intel out of it. I read a report about the reactive armor being penetrated by RPG's in Iraq, and that's something we would certainly want more info on. The fact is that aside from wiping out a hundred or so outdated T-72s in GWI the Abrams has never really been battle tested, and given our newfound love affair with standoff attacks it's unlikely we'll need to. Besides which, our capability to turn around and blow them up, should the need arise, is pretty rock solid. I figure we've got far too many of them anyway, the Iraqis will pay for them, we'll learn how they fared, and if Bashir doesn't blow them up we will.
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Online Chino

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2015, 10:39:43 AM »
On a somewhat disconnected note, I'm not very happy that we are about to hand over about 170+ Abrams tanks to Iraq, amongst other way too recent gen military equipment.

Maybe we should just put the shipping label as:  To: ISIS (c/o Iraqi *military*)
I certainly see your concern there, and it's a legitimate one. Iraq doesn't seem capable of hanging onto their hardware at the moment. One thing I'd be curious about is which variant they'd be getting. The M1A1 platform seems to have been in a constant state of evolution.



I'm assuming they are the M1-Abrams. I read a while back that there's something like 2500 (never used) just chilling in the Nevada desert.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2015, 10:56:09 AM »
On a somewhat disconnected note, I'm not very happy that we are about to hand over about 170+ Abrams tanks to Iraq, amongst other way too recent gen military equipment.

Maybe we should just put the shipping label as:  To: ISIS (c/o Iraqi *military*)
I certainly see your concern there, and it's a legitimate one. Iraq doesn't seem capable of hanging onto their hardware at the moment. One thing I'd be curious about is which variant they'd be getting. The M1A1 platform seems to have been in a constant state of evolution.



I'm assuming they are the M1-Abrams. I read a while back that there's something like 2500 (never used) just chilling in the Nevada desert.
It appears they're currently in possession of M1A1-M variants, which seem to be standard M1A1s but without the depleted uranium layer in the Chobham armor. I haven't heard anything about them buying more.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2015, 11:32:49 AM »

I'm assuming they are the M1-Abrams. I read a while back that there's something like 2500 (never used) just chilling in the Nevada desert.
It appears they're currently in possession of M1A1-M variants, which seem to be standard M1A1s but without the depleted uranium layer in the Chobham armor. I haven't heard anything about them buying more.

Any validity in the assumption that by giving our at-least-second generation hardware, we are dealing with the devil we know more than the devil we don't know?  This is a poor analogy but isn't this sort of like the hacker designing the security system for a corporation because they know the enemy? 

You guys seem to know more about the technology than I do, but this seems plausible to me.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2015, 12:21:20 PM »
"To find out who rules you, find out who you aren't allowed to criticise"


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2015, 01:57:38 PM »
But history shows that Islam is the target that hits back.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2015, 02:38:43 PM »
But history shows that Islam is the target that hits back.

Then why do we pretend that Islam isn't anything special?
In terms of religious groups they are something slightly special. While Christians will certainly blow shit up if they're distorted enough in their ideology, it's hardly commonplace (in this century, at least). Moslems do seem to be more predisposed to that sort of thing (in this century, at least). They're not anything unique insofar as people willing to blow shit up if you anger them in some way, though. The world's full of people willing to take out others who've wronged the in some way.

Furthermore, I think there's also an element that Islam is something of a catchall justification. Bin Laden didn't turn maniacal because "he hates our freedom" or some other halfwitted catchphrase. It was our occupation of Saudi Arabia that pissed him off. Then he dialed up the whole "infidels must die!" thing to rally your supporters. I wouldn't blame Islam for Moslems blowing up Israel, Syria or Iraq, for example. The issue with the Chechens isn't religious, either. They all share some commonalities, though, including tactics which make them appear the same.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2015, 04:57:56 PM »
Isn't it just a bit patronizing and...*ahem* the height of liberal handwringing to not believe the perpetrators? Look, the only reason I believe the attackers were motivated by Islam is that's the exact reason they cite. Projecting other motivations on to them is a failure in imagination...

Or so it seems to me.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2015, 05:51:37 PM »
Isn't it just a bit patronizing and...*ahem* the height of liberal handwringing to not believe the perpetrators?
Perhaps it is. Also, I'd take them at their word if they said "Allah said to blow up your tool-shed so we did!" I just don't think that necessarily conflicts with being convinced by others to act in such a way, who might by differently motivated. There's a big difference between Allahu Akbar!, pray to the East and don't eat pork, and crashing a damned 757 into a crowded building because their lifestyle isn't to your liking. Sure seems like there's plenty of room for manipulation in between. Also, haven't soldiers been lied to for ages and ages about the reason they're fighting? It's not like a little manipulation to the foot soldiers is unheard of, or even unusual.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2015, 05:57:04 PM »
Here's the real answer.  It doesn't matter what would have happened.  The way they interpret their religion is to spread a Caliphate to Spain.  And that's just to get back to the height of their glory.  There are no plans to stop there.  Why would they draw that conclusion?  Because Mohammed, the prophet, wasn't your every day prophet.  He was first a military leader that started the push in the first place.

Have you also read the Osama captured letters that laughs at the fact that *we* weak infidels buy into the "but Osama was wronged" message?  It talks specifically about pushing the Islamaphobia divisions.
I know not of these letters, but I'll go with it for a bit. Doesn't it seem like "pushing the Islamophobic divisions" is more of a anti-West policy than a pro-Islam one? Moreover, do you think the guys who acted in Paris this morning were acting to push those divisions or acting because they were pissed off about something? You might well be correct that was his primary motivation, I'm not sure we lowly citizens will ever know for sure, but that quite clearly suggests my first point that non all of these guys are acting for the same purpose, and some are probably not even sure of what they're fighting for outside of some "great Satan" dogma.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 11:39:36 AM »
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

An interesting read. Both encouraging and terrifying at the same time.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2015, 05:04:17 PM »
So it seems sizable percentages of them want man's law to comport with God's law, even though most of them can't agree on what God's law actually is.  Scary stuff.

And Calvin is correct. Those are some glaring omissions.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2015, 07:04:47 PM »
Maher on Jimmy Kimmel last night

Maher says liberals are confused when it comes to Muslim terrorists.

He's right.  I see so many people now who identify themselves as liberal trashing christianity on a regular basis, but the minute anyone says a bad word about Islam, it's suddenly a very bad thing, which makes zero sense.  Muslims, in general, are very much against homosexuality and equal rights for women, which goes against the modern day liberal playbook, so yeah, like Maher said, it makes no sense. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2015, 07:38:28 PM »
Here's a little Holiday greeting I've been wanting to send to the violent jihadists. I just didn't know how to phrase it until now. My name is Tony Stark and I'm not afraid of you. I know you're cowards, so I decided... that you just died, pal. I'm gonna come get the body. There's no politics here, it's just good old-fashioned revenge. There's no Pentagon. It's just you and me. And on the off-chance you're a man, here's my home address: 10880 Malibu Point, 90265. I'll leave the door unlocked.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2015, 08:24:13 PM »


Judging by the covers (since I don't live in France and don't get the magazine), the attacked magazine seems a bit crude and lives mainly to attack religion.  That stuff is a bit mean spirited in my perspective, but it should be allowed to exist and it definitely should be allowed to publish without fear of violence.

Right, but just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is always wise to do so.  If you poke a bear in the eye with a stick, sometimes they will fight back.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2015, 09:07:42 PM »
Honestly, I think it is simply the liberal need to be contrarian.  To draw false equivalencies to Christianity thinking it is scoring points against Republicans.
There is no "the liberal need to be contrarian." There is a need to be such that exists in lots and lots of human beings, regardless of ideological concerns. Look no further than either of the GOPs in Congress right now to see the conservative equivalents. In fact, I'd say that the need to be contrarian is probably a defining characteristic of American partisan politics of any beliefs. Same goes for the non-political. Some, like me, just like to debate.

As for Mahr, I haven't seen liberals being afraid to point fingers at Moslems; only Fox claiming that it's happening constantly. However, I probably wouldn't know that it were happening anyway and I'm quite happy to concede that it is the case. With that said, I probably do qualify as a liberal around here and I'm not one to refer to Moslem terrorists (or any of the other bullshit expressions we've invented for murderous Moslems nowadays), so I'll chime in. I think Moslems are silly and misguided. Exactly as I feel about Christians, Jews, Hindi, atheists and if you introduce me to a Wicken, probably them too. A whole group of silly people comprised of lots of nice ones, lots of assholes and a small handful of murderous ones. Point being that I've got no problem at all criticizing any of them for what they do. I'll add that the guys from yesterday are very definitely Moslem dickheads.

What I won't do is affix a generic "Muslim Terrorist" label to them. For one thing it's rather vague. Al Qaeda terrorists would be more appropriate (to the extent that they're even terrorists at all--a different debate altogether). At least al Qaeda has a particular goal (of some sort, at least) rather than simple mass murder. Second, it's unnecessary. I'm content just calling them terrorists (see previous qualifier), much like I'm content calling someone a murderer, buggerer, arsonist or frotteur. Don't see the need to call someone a gay murderer, white buggerer, Christian arsonist or Scotch frotteur.  Third, it's counterproductive for two reasons. A, it alienates all of the other members of that class, be they gay, white, Christian, Scottish or Moslem. That never helps your cause. B, because it reinforces ill-will towards that class, deserved or otherwise.

And in all honestly, it's that last one that really bugs me. Riling up the masses by singling out a target class is generally something bad people do to stupid people and I don't like to play the game. This country seems to operate now on making sure everybody is scared shitless of "the other guy," whether that's a Moslem, predator, communist or buggerer. Fighting to insure that every Moslem mass murderer gets a scary label is just another example, and "Muslim terrorist" is simply that label nowadays. It serves no other purpose.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2015, 07:24:06 AM »
Some Muslim Scholars (and you  can't believe how much it hurts me to put those two words together) have weighed in. I don't think this gets reported enough in the west. This should be a lead in story on Fox

http://onislam.net/english/shariah/special-coverage/481653-paris-attack-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-cartoon.html

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2015, 08:09:54 AM »
Some Muslim Scholars (and you  can't believe how much it hurts me to put those two words together) have weighed in. I don't think this gets reported enough in the west. This should be a lead in story on Fox

http://onislam.net/english/shariah/special-coverage/481653-paris-attack-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-cartoon.html
It should be a lead story everywhere.  From my understanding of the faith and the Koran, this is the appropriate response to such things, and to the stupid cartoons in the first place.

And of course there are scholars of Islam, just as there are scholars of Christianity, of Judaism, of Roman history, of archaeology, of literature, etc.  Basically, the scholars are the ones who are the most well-read, and the ones who write and develop thought and study.  In any field.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2015, 09:14:29 AM »
Some Muslim Scholars (and you  can't believe how much it hurts me to put those two words together) have weighed in.

I'm one and I'm sorry to hurt you man!
I haven't been commenting in this side of the forums often since basically posting here requires time and follow up.
However I felt like weighing in - some Ibuprofen for Podaar guys- about this terrorist attack in Paris, rather about the media response to it, cause I don't need to say that the act itself is fuckin disgusting and shameful, it goes without saying. The media and the herds response to it reminded me of the great activism and protests we lived through in 2011 with the solidarity hash tags and the impact of killing 77 people, mostly teenagers through out the world.. I might be remembering wrong though and it wasn't like that, or maybe it didn't matter as much cause it was an isolated incident while Muslims terrorist attacks are interconnected and we're all driven by the same idea without logic or reason. /greenfont
Today it feels like people think I'm supposed to be apologizing, like my fuckin nephews did this. I feel as connected to this as much as I'd feel guilty if another hardcore Dream Theater fan shot down and killed all the members of Limp Bizkit on their tour bus.
Also I see people on facebook today about how the security guy the fucktards killed on the their way into the paper's building was Muslim, I understand what the purpose of pointing that out means but I find it utterly humiliating to go around doing so.
Why I'm not Charlie is the title of this article I didn't write but is pretty much aligned with my thoughts.

Quote
"I am offended when those already oppressed in a society are deliberately insulted. I donít want to participate. This crime in Paris does not suspend my political or ethical judgment, or persuade me that scatologically smearing a marginal minorityís identity and beliefs is a reasonable thing to do. Yet this means rejecting the only authorized reaction to the atrocity. Oddly, this peer pressure seems to gear up exclusively where Islamís involved. When a racist bombed a chapter of a US civil rights organization this week, the media didnít insist I give to the NAACP in solidarity. When a rabid Islamophobic rightist killed 77 Norwegians in 2011, most of them at a political partyís youth camp, I didnít notice many ‪#‎IAmNorway‬ hashtags, or impassioned calls to join the Norwegian Labor Party. But Islam is there for us, it unites us against Islam. Only cowards or traitors turn down membership in the Charlie club."
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2015, 09:53:42 AM »
Sounds like the original two are dead from a shoot out.  Unfortunately, two more popped up in a kosher market and have hostages.
I thought it was only one in the market? I know that he's connected to the two who are now dead, and he had dual AK's.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2015, 10:09:46 AM »
I've seen conflicting reports on the hostages, but apparently France24, and BBC have reports that all hostages are alive.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2015, 10:58:59 AM »
Maher on Jimmy Kimmel last night

Maher says liberals are confused when it comes to Muslim terrorists.

He's right.  I see so many people now who identify themselves as liberal trashing christianity on a regular basis, but the minute anyone says a bad word about Islam, it's suddenly a very bad thing, which makes zero sense.  Muslims, in general, are very much against homosexuality and equal rights for women, which goes against the modern day liberal playbook, so yeah, like Maher said, it makes no sense.

But that's not a phenomenon that is exclusive to Islam.  The various minority factions of the Democrat party (not necessarily the party itself) don't always have a phenomenal record of being consistent with each other.   One might assume - might - that each faction would be sympathetic to the other factions who are presumably looking for the same goals, and would be more understanding to the plights of others, but such is not always the case.  Sometimes it's not always about the greater good or the fundamental right, sometimes it just boils down to the personal. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2015, 11:12:23 AM »
He's right.  I see so many people now who identify themselves as liberal trashing christianity on a regular basis, but the minute anyone says a bad word about Islam, it's suddenly a very bad thing, which makes zero sense.  Muslims, in general, are very much against homosexuality and equal rights for women, which goes against the modern day liberal playbook, so yeah, like Maher said, it makes no sense.

Honestly, I think it is simply the liberal need to be contrarian.  To draw false equivalencies to Christianity thinking it is scoring points against Republicans.

A point I've been making for years; the population of the United States is about 80% christian (small "c", as in believes in Christ as some form of holy figure).  Yet all we hear about on the news are the less than 15% of the pop. who are Christian (large "C", as in "thou shall be smiteth doth thou challenge the word of the Lord").  And there is sometimes great advantage (even if the advantage is a false one) in drawing connections like that.

Offline Podaar

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2015, 12:42:39 PM »
And of course there are scholars of Islam, just as there are scholars of Christianity, of Judaism, of Roman history, of archaeology, of literature, etc.  Basically, the scholars are the ones who are the most well-read, and the ones who write and develop thought and study.  In any field.

I'm sure there are scholars of Sidhe (pronounced Shee) but I don't believe any of them promote belief in fairies. It's one thing to be a scholar of Roman and Greek gods, it's a completely different thing to be a scholar who makes truth claims based on Roman or Greek mythology. In your list above, some of these things are not like the others.

I'm one and I'm sorry to hurt you man!

I'm just a random poster on the internet. I wouldn't worry too much!  :)  Do whatever makes you happy, man.

Oh, and for what it's worth, my Facebook picture was the Norwegian flag for 6 months after the atrocity there! I am Norway.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2015, 12:46:28 PM »
Some Muslim Scholars (and you  can't believe how much it hurts me to put those two words together) have weighed in.

I'm one and I'm sorry to hurt you man!
I haven't been commenting in this side of the forums often since basically posting here requires time and follow up.
However I felt like weighing in - some Ibuprofen for Podaar guys- about this terrorist attack in Paris, rather about the media response to it, cause I don't need to say that the act itself is fuckin disgusting and shameful, it goes without saying. The media and the herds response to it reminded me of the great activism and protests we lived through in 2011 with the solidarity hash tags and the impact of killing 77 people, mostly teenagers through out the world.. I might be remembering wrong though and it wasn't like that, or maybe it didn't matter as much cause it was an isolated incident while Muslims terrorist attacks are interconnected and we're all driven by the same idea without logic or reason. /greenfont
Today it feels like people think I'm supposed to be apologizing, like my fuckin nephews did this. I feel as connected to this as much as I'd feel guilty if another hardcore Dream Theater fan shot down and killed all the members of Limp Bizkit on their tour bus.
Also I see people on facebook today about how the security guy the fucktards killed on the their way into the paper's building was Muslim, I understand what the purpose of pointing that out means but I find it utterly humiliating to go around doing so.
Why I'm not Charlie is the title of this article I didn't write but is pretty much aligned with my thoughts.

Quote
"I am offended when those already oppressed in a society are deliberately insulted. I donít want to participate. This crime in Paris does not suspend my political or ethical judgment, or persuade me that scatologically smearing a marginal minorityís identity and beliefs is a reasonable thing to do. Yet this means rejecting the only authorized reaction to the atrocity. Oddly, this peer pressure seems to gear up exclusively where Islamís involved. When a racist bombed a chapter of a US civil rights organization this week, the media didnít insist I give to the NAACP in solidarity. When a rabid Islamophobic rightist killed 77 Norwegians in 2011, most of them at a political partyís youth camp, I didnít notice many ‪#‎IAmNorway‬ hashtags, or impassioned calls to join the Norwegian Labor Party. But Islam is there for us, it unites us against Islam. Only cowards or traitors turn down membership in the Charlie club."

Some of this isn't entirely true.

"It goes without saying."   No, it doesn't when the saying itself is an overt act of rebellion.   I don't have to say "it is bad to hang a black man to a tree" because there is no established interpretation of a mainstream religious text that says it is.  That DOES go without saying because the only counter to that is the bigoted beliefs of what has come to be a relatively small minority.   Contrast that with established sects of the religion that call on death to unbelievers and who act on that premise explicitly, then it DOES require saying.   It DOES require those that share most of the same beliefs - and more importantly, share in the same rituals and societal construct - to say "well, we agree he's the prophet, we agree that our beliefs are more than just "religion" but rather govern how we live our live, but we as people have to draw the line at actually KILLING those that don't believe exactly as we do and with the same fervor.".

"I didn't notice many #IAmNorway hashtags".  I don't know where you are from, but that is - sometimes for better, though sometimes for worse - a big part of the equation here in the States.   We have religious extremism here in the States, though not on this level, but it is important that when, for example, Westboro Baptist Church decides to picket funerals, that other Baptist Churches take the time and make the effort to say "that is not part of OUR worship".    I agree we here take things too far sometimes (thus blurring the line between "tolerance" and "acceptance" to the point of erasure and therefore meaninglessness except as a bumper sticker slogan) but as a first step it is a powerful tool, and one that within reason, fuels the changing of hearts and minds. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2015, 01:11:20 PM »
"It goes without saying."   No, it doesn't when the saying itself is an overt act of rebellion.   I don't have to say "it is bad to hang a black man to a tree" because there is no established interpretation of a mainstream religious text that says it is.  That DOES go without saying because the only counter to that is the bigoted beliefs of what has come to be a relatively small minority.   Contrast that with established sects of the religion that call on death to unbelievers and who act on that premise explicitly, then it DOES require saying.   It DOES require those that share most of the same beliefs - and more importantly, share in the same rituals and societal construct - to say "well, we agree he's the prophet, we agree that our beliefs are more than just "religion" but rather govern how we live our live, but we as people have to draw the line at actually KILLING those that don't believe exactly as we do and with the same fervor.".
What percentage of believers is the threshhold for it being accepted mainstream belief? My only issue here is that you seem to be making your point based strictly on class size. There aren't enough people who actually think lynching is acceptable for it to matter, but there are enough who believe slaughtering infidels is okey-dokey that all of them need to publicly denounce it. Moreover, it seems to me that calling their actions fucking disgusting and shameful (the saying in question) is hardly an overt act of rebellion except in small, sect driven Moslem communities.

Quote
"I didn't notice many #IAmNorway hashtags".  I don't know where you are from, but that is - sometimes for better, though sometimes for worse - a big part of the equation here in the States.   We have religious extremism here in the States, though not on this level, but it is important that when, for example, Westboro Baptist Church decides to picket funerals, that other Baptist Churches take the time and make the effort to say "that is not part of OUR worship".    I agree we here take things too far sometimes (thus blurring the line between "tolerance" and "acceptance" to the point of erasure and therefore meaninglessness except as a bumper sticker slogan) but as a first step it is a powerful tool, and one that within reason, fuels the changing of hearts and minds. 
Also a valid point that I don't disagree with. At the same time, doesn't there come a point when hashtags and bumperstickers move beyond solidarity and into alienation? Like I said in last night's ramble, a big part of my issue here is that the labels and slogans become counterproductive. The more you convince the masses that Islam is the problem the more you slide the scale over to the side of extremism.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2015, 02:34:05 PM »
And of course there are scholars of Islam, just as there are scholars of Christianity, of Judaism, of Roman history, of archaeology, of literature, etc.  Basically, the scholars are the ones who are the most well-read, and the ones who write and develop thought and study.  In any field.

I'm sure there are scholars of Sidhe (pronounced Shee) but I don't believe any of them promote belief in fairies. It's one thing to be a scholar of Roman and Greek gods, it's a completely different thing to be a scholar who makes truth claims based on Roman or Greek mythology. In your list above, some of these things are not like the others.
Scholarship has nothing to do with belief.  Some religious scholars are believers, and some aren't.  The word refers to academics and study; any field has scholars. 
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2015, 05:06:11 PM »
It was the black dude that was killed at the market.  Don't know what happened to the woman?

CNN stepped on their own political correctness by reporting him as "the African-American", and the other news desk dude saying "uhm .. not American ... African ... descent".

Was anybody Caucasian-American?

That always gets me.  I was born in America and I am American with Lebanese and Irish descent.

I've always been of the belief that religion isn't bad but people who twist these writing to their own cause are the dangerous ones. 
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Paris satirical newspaper attacked by Islamic jihadists
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2015, 06:18:04 PM »
"It goes without saying."   No, it doesn't when the saying itself is an overt act of rebellion.   I don't have to say "it is bad to hang a black man to a tree" because there is no established interpretation of a mainstream religious text that says it is.  That DOES go without saying because the only counter to that is the bigoted beliefs of what has come to be a relatively small minority.   Contrast that with established sects of the religion that call on death to unbelievers and who act on that premise explicitly, then it DOES require saying.

I was never taught "death to unbelievers" anywhere and I grew up as a Muslim in a religious family in a Muslim country, I have never seen anything that says that except written in arguments on the internet. I have never personally met someone who would seriously kill for the sake of religion. The furthest I've seen in religious text is something along the lines of to "fight unbelievers if they fight you and try to take over your land or turn you on your religion". I dunno if it's at all relevant but the words for "fight" and "kill" are spelled the same in Arabic but pronounced differently.
The reason I think it goes without saying is that why would someone live in a Western society and have Western friends if an indivisible part of their entity says to randomly kill them cause they don't believe what I believe? Just why would I go through the trouble of surrounding myself with my enemies at all times? And if I'm to kill the unbelievers then how do I pick who to kill? do I go for a GTA style rampage? These extremists and their interruption of Islam is so insanely dumb and illogical but it's hard for me to believe civilized people would wait for normal everyday Muslims to go "I'm not a maniacal murderer" every time this happens.
Barto drives through the point better.
 
We have religious extremism here in the States, though not on this level, but it is important that when, for example, Westboro Baptist Church decides to picket funerals, that other Baptist Churches take the time and make the effort to say "that is not part of OUR worship".    I agree we here take things too far sometimes (thus blurring the line between "tolerance" and "acceptance" to the point of erasure and therefore meaninglessness except as a bumper sticker slogan) but as a first step it is a powerful tool, and one that within reason, fuels the changing of hearts and minds.

Cannot disagree there.
I think the worst of your religious extremism is behind you in history IMO so it doesn't matter anymore, no matter how bad it got when existed, my bright luck is that I have to live through mine.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.