Author Topic: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!  (Read 6833 times)

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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2014, 05:10:45 PM »
I mostly consider metal songs to come from metal bands which were classed as metal even back then (I'm not into calling Blue Cheer or In A Gadda Da Vidda metal if you catch my drift), and Queen really wasn't a metal band. But yeah, that song, in terms of structure and heaviness it's shoulder to shoulder with most of what Black Sabbath was doing at the time.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2014, 05:20:38 PM »
For what it's worth, i will definitely concede that it's a lot easier to become a legend in your field when the field is nascent. But, Steve Vai, Tom Morello, Slash, Eddie Van Halen and others would disagree.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2014, 05:43:53 PM »
Queen did not delve into metal. Half of Queen's songs are synth-oriented. Most of Queen's songs in the 1970s are piano-driven. Brian May did not play fast.

TGP, I am not convincing you to like Brian May over JP. I have had enough experience in this forum that you never change your mind on anythying. What I would like to suggest, though, is for you to not comment on things you do not know much about because you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Based on your representations of Queen and Brian May's music in this thread, my impression is that you have not even heard 75% of Queen's output. Do not speak as if you can authoritatively comment on Brian May's playing if you are just basing it on two Greatest hits albums.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2014, 06:03:57 PM »
Again, something I never said.  You're really reaching now, since you keep trying put words in my mouth.  Enjoy your chops and leave the good stuff to those of us who can appreciate uniqueness and character. :biggrin:

No offence or anything, but no one needs to put words in your mouth to interpret an implication, which is mostly what I see happening. Your comments might imply something, then you deny that you said that version of the interpretation. I'm not saying that happened every time, but it did sound like you made an implication about JP, at least by comparison with the way you worded that statement.

On a separate topic, it's also worth pointing out that JP is slowly "winding down" in terms of skill. Many of his chromatic runs are done "let's make it to the end on time" vs the solid reproduction of the album material back in the day.
Again, this is all said in comparison to Brian May. I think it's pretty safe to judge JP's impact on the world of guitar playing at this point, since he's slowly winding down. And when you compare the corpus of both players by the time they wound down, Brian clearly was way ahead.

And to put it really succinctly, Brian May is a legend. John Petrucci, as good as he is, is not.

Jumping the gun a bit? What could possibly make you determine that JP is 'winding down'? I'm not suggesting this will be the case, but I wouldn't assume so much as they're nearly done. For all we know DT hasn't hit their prime and are only half way through their careers. Besides, what does that even mean, winding down? Chances are an experienced guitarist is more likely to be able to integrate more of the styles they've played over the years to demonstrate even more versatility.

To be fair, the 60's and 70's were the ideal time to claim legend status. Since the 90's and onwards, the rock music market had become so fragmented (this is a good thing) that there are simply no more legends of the instrument/vocal, everything has been done and invented before. Coming from someone who's favorite guitarist is Brian May, I think technical skill is way underrated nowadays because appreciating it gives you the reputation of the anti-musical nerd who jerks off to Yngwie Malmsteen, while the truth is way simpler - higher technical skill gives you more leeway and allows you to compose and play out anything you could possibly imagine. When combined with excellent songwriting, it gives you magnificent pieces of work such as... well, Images and Words? :)

For what it's worth, I don't think you could claim Brian May or David Gilmore are less technically skilled than JP? There is no god-given talent to make a prodigy play like David Gilmore plays, there is no way you can just pick up a guitar and translate emotion into sound. A lot of cold calculation and nerding off with the guitar must be done before you're capable of writing music history like the guitarists of the 70's did. A lot of the stuff they did then was cutting edge.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you've said here but I'll also use your comment as an outlet to make a few points.  :lol

So if something is cutting edge, it's going to be more renown and memorable. So, what happens when someone emulates one of these 'legendary' styles in a similar way but also somehow objectively; improves upon it technically (perhaps by having more variation, less repetition). The new creation inspired by the legendary creation could have all the criteria that could make it debatably superior to the original. But it was written today and doesn't get as much recognition. It won't have as much of an impact, and due to the paradoxical nature of it's composition requiring the aforementioned influence, can never have a comparable impact because it's not cutting edge. So what determines that someone gets legendary status? That they pioneered, or founded a certain style? That's one way for sure, but how does one become a legend today? My living up to the preconceived status of these former legends? My trying to emulate them as closely as possible until they get recognition? Or do they have to come up with something completely unique and obscure so they can be regognised as innovative instead of being traditionally contemporary.

I guess my point is, it's always gonna be subjective so unless we can come up with some kind of guitar player versatility test with various excersises to assess the players, based on: ability (skill/style), creative potential and improvisational ability, understanding of musical structures and patterns (theory), performance ability/technique (by sight, ear or memory). And no matter what test there is, it'd still be as useless as any other "objective analayse" because of subjective interpretation and the inability to accurately measure abstract attributes. This is just my point of view as a music teacher, I would never bother making these comparisons with any sort of certainty. And for what it's worth, I prefer JPs style because I appreciate less predictable musical patterns favoured by prog in general (not that May doesn't have some of these qualities). But I can't determine who is a better player because there's a point that a musician reaches where the measurement of their skill transcends the simple conception of what generally makes a good player. Obviously a learner is still developing their identity, which can take years. But clearly May and Petrucci are not beginners, they have developed and cemented their styles over many years, and have a firm grip on how to play their instrument in a variety of ways. They could probably both express whatever comes into their head on their instrument which will result in different appeal of different material due to different influences. Not one of us can assume the other can't play a certain style, because they probably could if they wanted to. I think Queen's body of work is kind of beyond what Dream Theater has achieved popularity wise, but hardly any of that recognition is because of the guitar player. It's in spite of him for sure, but I think you'll find most people that casually appreciate Queen don't even know who Brian May is. So I wouldn't use Queen's popularity to determine the skill of the guitarist and then relatively compare that to the success of another band to measure skill.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 11:51:42 PM by Rodni Demental »

Offline rumborak

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2014, 06:26:06 PM »
Jumping the gun a bit? What could possibly make you determine that JP is 'winding down'? I'm not suggesting this will be the case, but I wouldn't assume so much as they're nearly done. For all we know DT hasn't hit their prime and are only half way through their careers.

Err, yeah. Its of course your choice to believe so, but I think most people see DT in the last third of their career.

Regarding JP, I say it from the viewpoint of being a guitarist myself. JP's playing just doesn't have the fluidity and ease it used to have. I rewatched the old videos a while ago, and those were the grand days of JP's playing. He's holding up impressively well these days, but in terms of his overall impact, I think we've seen all there is.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2014, 06:34:26 PM »
I follow you, there was something about the young JP that seemed innovative and full of potential, just watching old stuff like Live in Tokyo gives this impression. But I still don't believe that being in the last third of your career (or however you want to separate the timespan) correlates to the guitarist winding down. It's an understandable concept that a player might just chill and ride the wave a bit more casually towards the 'end', but I don't necessarily believe this 'winding down' factor should imply any kind of expectation and I couldn't say that about JP yet. Can you?

Offline rumborak

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2014, 06:46:44 PM »
I'm all saying this in the thread's argument of "greater life work", which I think most people voting in that poll are considering. While I agree that JP won't put down his guitar anytime soon, do you really expect JP to start an important new chapter that would make people revise their assessment of him? He has not changed his playing style since ToT, and that's 11 years ago.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 06:53:16 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2014, 12:03:38 AM »
He's gotten comfortable with his style since ToT probably. I still reckon that he's remained quite versatile, always experimenting with his tones and technique, each album still has a unique difference in sound to some varying degrees. At the very least, I believe JP is still quite capable of surprising us, and I couldn't confidently believe that about too many players. Although I don't quite know what more we're expecting him to do, he's already achieved more than many musicians could hope for. If anything we're more likely to see more original/experimental material from a solo album than in DT. Anyway, I suppose it's an honor in and of itself just for JP to go up against Brian May as far as recognition goes.  :biggrin:

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2014, 02:48:39 AM »
For what it's worth, i will definitely concede that it's a lot easier to become a legend in your field when the field is nascent. But, Steve Vai, Tom Morello, Slash, Eddie Van Halen and others would disagree.
They still played in this unfragmented chunk of rock music that's appealing to everyone (and Van Halen had some techniques left to pioneer), and most of them made their name at the tail end of the 80's, beginning of the 90's. Except Morello, but I've heard more people who consider Petrucci a rock legend than Morello.

So what determines that someone gets legendary status? That they pioneered, or founded a certain style? That's one way for sure, but how does one become a legend today? My living up to the preconceived status of these former legends? My trying to emulate them as closely as possible until they get recognition? Or do they have to come up with something completely unique and obscure so they can be regognised as innovative instead of being traditionally contemporary.
Tbh I think that we as a civilization are not really ready to admit legendary status to anything or anyone that's relatively contemporary and fresh. Only when 20+ years pass and the style isn't played by anyone anymore/the band has broken up/the person in question has died (we were pretty fast to declare Kurt Cobain and Jeff Buckley legends), then we're talkin'. But not a lot before that.

I have a lot of my late dad's issues of the famous Yugoslavian rock magazine Jukebox (from '75 and onwards), and basically they were all about the 60's, Cream this and Cream that, why did the Beatles fall apart, what is the future of rock'n'roll (most people thought it was winding down) when prog, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Queen were happening right in front of their noses. In the era there were some fans and journalists that were discerning and wanted to make new legends and recognize them, and that was usually what happened, but a lot of people who were fawning over Queen when Freddie died were the same people who thought of them as a "meh" band even after A Night At The Opera. Not that they are a representative sample of that, but my mom and dad thought Queen actually couldn't really play and that they used studio magic for everything until I showed them a DVD when I was like 13 or something.

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2014, 05:42:40 PM »
Again, something I never said.  You're really reaching now, since you keep trying put words in my mouth.  Enjoy your chops and leave the good stuff to those of us who can appreciate uniqueness and character. :biggrin:

No offence or anything, but no one needs to put words in your mouth to interpret an implication, which is mostly what I see happening. Your comments might imply something, then you deny that you said that version of the interpretation. I'm not saying that happened every time, but it did sound like you made an implication about JP, at least by comparison with the way you worded that statement.

Well, I can't help it if someone wrongly assumes I meant something, when things I have actually said in this thread indicate otherwise. :)

Offline Jaq

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2014, 03:10:24 PM »
Queen did not delve into metal. Half of Queen's songs are synth-oriented. Most of Queen's songs in the 1970s are piano-driven. Brian May did not play fast.

TGP, I am not convincing you to like Brian May over JP. I have had enough experience in this forum that you never change your mind on anythying. What I would like to suggest, though, is for you to not comment on things you do not know much about because you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Based on your representations of Queen and Brian May's music in this thread, my impression is that you have not even heard 75% of Queen's output. Do not speak as if you can authoritatively comment on Brian May's playing if you are just basing it on two Greatest hits albums.

Not sure how someone who keeps saying Brian May didn't play fast or half of Queen's output was synth based is able to authoritatively speak on Brian May's playing myself, actually. If anyone sounds like they're basing Queen on Greatest Hits Albums here it's you.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2014, 07:23:36 PM »
Agreed, Jaq.  Saying half of Queen's material is synth-based makes no sense, considering the first seven albums have ZERO synths, and while they used synths quite a bit in the 80s, there are still plenty of songs that had zero or little synth, and even many that did used them for color, not to base a song around them. 

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2014, 08:28:06 PM »
Queen did not delve into metal. Half of Queen's songs are synth-oriented. Most of Queen's songs in the 1970s are piano-driven. Brian May did not play fast.

TGP, I am not convincing you to like Brian May over JP. I have had enough experience in this forum that you never change your mind on anythying. What I would like to suggest, though, is for you to not comment on things you do not know much about because you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Based on your representations of Queen and Brian May's music in this thread, my impression is that you have not even heard 75% of Queen's output. Do not speak as if you can authoritatively comment on Brian May's playing if you are just basing it on two Greatest hits albums.


Not sure how someone who keeps saying Brian May didn't play fast or half of Queen's output was synth based is able to authoritatively speak on Brian May's playing myself, actually. If anyone sounds like they're basing Queen on Greatest Hits Albums here it's you.

I was sarcastically repeating TGP's statements! I am the one who is saying that Queeen's  songs are not synth oriented, that they delved into metal, and that Brian May played fast, contrary to what TGP was saying. Should I have used the sarcasm font?

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2014, 09:24:44 PM »
I don't know what makes some of you guys the authority on Queen, but you're clearly nitpicking details in an attempt to completely disregard some otherwise valid points. They didn't delve into metal, they just played in a style that would practically become a staple for metal. But Stone Cold Crazy wasn't metal at the time, it can be said in retrospect that it's a type of metal, but they didn't set out to play metal or deliberately have a go at 'delving into some metal', they simply demonstrated a type of expression of their own style and unintentionally pioneered a genre to various extents, similar to what the Beetles did with Helter Skelter for example.

Half the stuff that popularised the band in the latter part of their career is full of synths and is all over the greatest hits album(s). Synth also being a predominant feature that a majority of casual Queen fans stereotypically associate with Queen (studio effects and synth). And when it's not synth, it's piano. So I wouldn't necessarily take a statement regarding 'half of Queen's songs being synth', or that 'half of the songs in the first part of their career were piano based instead', too literally. I think the point was more a generalisation to the effect that; if it's not a guitar tune, it's a piano centered tune. You don't have to divide it in half for that to be a fair statement. And that point was related to the composition of the music not always being dependent on the guitarist and therefore not a very relevant comparison when comparing bands and guitar players. Especially if one is a primary composer, and one is only sometimes filling that role. Finally, I appreciate the wider range of Queen's music, but I know people that are much bigger fans of Queen than myself, and they still only listen to the greatest hits albums and only know the hits, fact is Queen is mostly associated with those songs. Of course, this is DTF so I'm not surprised that you're nitpicking. And that I'm bothering to nitpick your nitpick. :P

Whatever, I just thought some people are missing the point of the original discussion.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2014, 12:01:51 AM »
The context of the discussion actually is that there was a claim that JP is better than Brian May because JP supposedly is more versatile than May. I engaged in the discussion because it is an interesting claim, and I have listened to full discographies of Queen and DT. But apparently, the one making the claim has not listened to enough Queen while having listened to the whole DT discography. How can the versatility of May be judged contrasted to JP if only a handful of songs have been listened to? I mean, if you would discuss versatility of somebody's guitar playing, at least listen to his body of work substantially.

i was actually expecting a healthy discussion, until these questionable generalizations about Queen's music was put forward.

Offline puppyonacid

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2014, 02:56:37 AM »
The trouble with the comparison between Queen and DT could be be underpinned by the fanbase.

DT has a fanbase where the majority of the listeners know or are getting to know the back catalogue as a whole. This is because DT don't really have hits that you can hang your hat on. Basically, no one track or album (as is testified here by frequent debates) stands out high above the rest.

Quee non the other hand have a majority fanbase of casual listeners. Essentially, everybody has an opinion on Queen. The problem is that, the majority opinion is wrong (that can happen). Queen were often called Glam rock in the 70's. That was pigeon holing as most of their output was more prog in that they went anywhere and everywhere they could. They did evolve into a much straighter outfit into the 80's but they did still experiment. The fanbase generally views them as a pop band. Yet, metal heads, rock fans and Queen geeks (which I am) know that Queen were always so much more than anything anyone could pin on them. They really were a band where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.

Anybody saying that Queen were just this or just that and basing that on their greatest hits is just as absurd as doing the same with DT based on songs like I walk beside you or Another Day. That's just one facet of DT just as Queens hits were generally only representative of one facet of Queens style. Fact is, Queen rarely is ever had any real discernible style which probably has given their music the longevity it has.

Remember, this is the same band that played heavy rock/metal (Stone Cold Crazy), thrash punk (Sheer Heart Attack), funk (another one bites the dust), dixie land jazz (good company), ragtime (bring back that leroy brown), prog rock (prohets song), Baroque (procession), pop (a kind of magic) and so on. Even that is a very small selection.

None of it seems out of place looked on as a whole, but it's so difficult to name any other group of musician that did all of that as convincingly as Queen did. Could DT do it? Yes of course they could. But it would be ridiculous to hear DT do a Charleston parody on the next album. Somehow, Queen managed to slip in and out of these genres with natural ease. That's the difference. It all just seemed to work.

Dismissing Queen as a pop rock band is a bit short sighted and means you're missing out on one of the great back catalogues. I wouldn't really want anyone dismissing DT as just a prog metal band for the same reason.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2014, 09:48:04 AM »
Remember, this is the same band that played heavy rock/metal (Stone Cold Crazy), thrash punk (Sheer Heart Attack), funk (another one bites the dust), dixie land jazz (good company), ragtime (bring back that leroy brown), prog rock (prohets song), Baroque (procession), pop (a kind of magic) and so on. Even that is a very small selection.

None of it seems out of place looked on as a whole, but it's so difficult to name any other group of musician that did all of that as convincingly as Queen did. Could DT do it? Yes of course they could. But it would be ridiculous to hear DT do a Charleston parody on the next album. Somehow, Queen managed to slip in and out of these genres with natural ease. That's the difference. It all just seemed to work.

That's the amazing part about Queen, yeah. Maybe it's because they started doing it right from the get-go.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2014, 03:59:43 PM »
i was actually expecting a healthy discussion, until these questionable generalizations about Queen's music was put forward.

Oh it's still interesting, doesn't mean it's a healthy discussion though. :P In all fairness, these generalisations about Queen are relevant and also valid from different perspectives. An opinion can't be wrong, it's just a point of view. Now it can be an incomplete point of view, but it can still develop an impression and come to it's own conclusions. Which is what my point was regarding the Queen fanbase (which I'm also generalising), that most of them don't even know who Brian May is (I asked a few people yesterday at work after seeing the discussion in this thread and I wasn't surprised that people that are into Queen, still don't know who he is). They've got a very different fanbase (but also similarly diverse) that's more about experiencing the music than picking it apart for analysis. I don't know how fair this assumption would be, but most DT fans I know also know the names of all the band members and seem more aware of those details. Don't know what that's supposed to say about that particular scenario but there you go.  :lol

Offline rumborak

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2014, 05:31:02 PM »
It seems you are using the term "into Queen" very loosely here. Almost by definition, not knowing the guitarist of a band puts an upper limit to how much that person is "into" the band.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2014, 05:41:26 PM »
I am inclined to agree because that's a fair statement, but I think you overestimate the casual listener's interest in those sort of details. Perhaps a dedicated fan would surely know, but I'm not using it all too loosely because I'm talking about friends who are really "into" the band, they would even say Queen is one of their favourite bands, but they'd be lumped in with a lot of other bands whom they also don't know the lineup. It's just the bands and the music those bands play that's of any interest. I think it's another level of fandom when you start digging deeper like we do, but I wouldn't say by definition that they have to know these details even if they're very much into the band, ya know?

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2014, 06:52:42 PM »
Then the casual listener should not really judge Brian May as less versatile than JP, would you say? Hehehe

Anyway, to get back into topic, how indeed would you compare JP to May as a guitarist? What aspects of guitar musicianship do you think favor one player over the other?

In my own assessment, JP is better in shredding. They are just about equal in composing riffs, they just have different genres. I find May a better soloist, knowing how to elicit more emotion on a fewer notes. I also find May more imaginative, which I think made him find a signature sound while also managing to cross musical styles with ease.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2014, 10:19:02 PM »
Then the casual listener should not really judge Brian May as less versatile than JP, would you say? Hehehe

Correct. But in the same regard it also means the band's popularity is irrelevant as well if we were to consider it in the equation.

Anyway, as far as considering aspects of guitar musicianship. It's a bit hard for me to determine because I'm actually a pianist and only play a bit of guitar. But I would say (and mentioned something to similar effect earlier) there's a point where the whole comparison is pointless because both players have practically transcended the boundaries of what can measure a great player. They're both legends if you ask me and after that, it comes down to matters of taste because what is left to measure when they both have enough skill to play the same content if they wanted to, just in their own style.  I'm a JP fanboy and he's one of my all time favourite guitarists so that speaks for itself. But Brian May is still a phenomenal guitarist and constantly impresses me. He can certainly surprise me with his solos, and some of the effects and harmonies are really unique to his style and just sound divine. I still feel JP tends to integrate more styles into his playing at once, but such is the nature of progressive music. BM has still demonstrated huge variety in his playing too, but more on an individual song basis stylistically.  :biggrin:

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2014, 03:07:56 AM »
Well said. So maybe it's time to put this discussion to rest?  :rollin

Anyway, time for some sexy Queen + Adam Lambert shit. :p

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Show your love for JP in another useless poll!
« Reply #93 on: December 12, 2014, 10:13:47 AM »
I just looked at the setlist of the current tour with Adam Lambert. You know, I probably wouldn't mind seeing the Queen, but the ticket prices, combined with the really generic setlist, just doesn't make it worth it.
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