Author Topic: What are the chorus in these DT songs?  (Read 5328 times)

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Offline ToT-147

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What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« on: November 27, 2014, 07:47:03 PM »
Since DT has a lot of songs which are not precisely typical, at least judging by their unpredictability in the structures of the vocal lines, I always had some doubts in more than a few songs, in which I couldn't find that so important part of any song.. Then I realized that there's actually several DT songs that don't have even a chorus, or have many.. Either way, here's a couple of lists I made, regarding those issues:

Songs that don't have a chorus, because they're short ballads or very short songs:

-Wait for Sleep
-Regression
-Through My Words
-Vacant

Songs with parts:

Songs without a specific chorus, or with too many:

-The Killing Hand (there's not one I can notice)
-The Glass Prison ("Crawling to my glass prison..." / "Help Me - Save Me - Heal Me")
-Octavarium (Medicate Me's / Full Circles')
-The Best of Times ("I'll always remember..." / "These were the best of times...")
-In the Presence of Enemies - pt 3-6 ("Angels fall - Dark Master" / "I judge as my eyes see...")

There's one chorus, in spite of being long songs and with parts:

-A Change of Seasons (Innocence)
-Trial of Tears (It's Raining)
-Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence ("Even though she seems so high...")
[Anyway, this case is special, because all the other parts (except TTtSTA) have chorus..]
-Illumination Theory (Live, Die, Kill)

BUT, what about THESE songs?:

-Only a Matter of Time
-Surrounded
-Metropolis pt 1
-Space-Dye-Vest
-The Great Debate
-Endless Sacrifice
-Panic Attack

Which is the chorus on each one?.. And I ask this because I think the answer it's entirely subjective..
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 07:52:51 PM »
How can a song have "too many" choruses? :lol All of those songs in that list have clear choruses that you've pointed out yourself (not sure about TKH, cbf to check).

The choruses in Panic Attack and Endless Sacrifice are clear as day.
Panic Attack - Why do I feel so numb.......
Endless Sacrifice - Try to say stay alive.............
The Great Debate - Turn to the light.........
Metropolis doesn't have a chorus.
Don't think Surrounded has one.
Don't care enough about OAMOT or SDV to check.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 07:58:23 PM »
Wow, I never really noticed that OAMOT doesn't have a chorus. But yeah, in spite of a couple of lines repeating here and there, I wouldn't say it has an actual chorus.

Surrounded is the same as OAMOT, there are some lines that repeat, but really, structurally speaking they don't serve the same purpose as a chorus would.

Metropolis pt 1 is more like The Killing Hand. No chorus either, if you ask me.

Space-Dye-Vest... Err...  Hmm... No chorus either I guess.

The Great Debate - "Turn to the light" I would say is Chorus 1, and "Are you justified" is Chorus 2.

Endless Sacrifice - Has sort of a Chorus A, Chrous AB, Chorus B structure, so A would be. The whole "Try to stay alive until I hear your voice" is the chorus A for that one, I'd say. And I guess "Moments Wasted, Isolated" would be Chorus B for this one.

Panic Attack -  Same as above. Chorus A is "Why do I feel so numb" and Chorus B would be "Helpless Hysteria"

That's how I see them.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 09:37:42 PM »
How can a song have "too many" choruses? :lol All of those songs in that list have clear choruses that you've pointed out yourself

So, which one is the chorus in those songs: The Glass Prison, Octavarium, The Best of Times and In the Presence of Enemies - pt 3-6 ??..

I didn't pointed out one in particularly, but several.. "How can a song have "too many" choruses?": being a DT song...  ;)

The Great Debate - "Turn to the light" I would say is Chorus 1, and "Are you justified" is Chorus 2.

Endless Sacrifice - Has sort of a Chorus A, Chrous AB, Chorus B structure, so A would be. The whole "Try to stay alive until I hear your voice" is the chorus A for that one, I'd say. And I guess "Moments Wasted, Isolated" would be Chorus B for this one.

Panic Attack -  Same as above. Chorus A is "Why do I feel so numb" and Chorus B would be "Helpless Hysteria"

That's how I see them.

Yeah, that's exactly why I considered right for these three songs to be in that list.. There's not plainly ONE chorus you can notice of... In TGD, it's also "Human kind has reached a turning point..." that could be easily called a 'chorus', or at least one of the couple that this song has..

And then there's Endless Sacrifice.. Those two are clearly the "choruses" of the song.. But, OTOH, both has the same riff underneath.. So... it's complicated.. Besides, the first one is not repeated at the end.. Same with Panic Attack, though the chorus A and B on this one has different notes..
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 09:50:22 PM »
How can a song have "too many" choruses? :lol All of those songs in that list have clear choruses that you've pointed out yourself

So, which one is the chorus in those songs: The Glass Prison, Octavarium, The Best of Times and In the Presence of Enemies - pt 3-6 ??..


You've pretty much pointed them all out. A song can have more than one chorus, without one being "the" chorus. I actually really like that about DT's longer songs, that they don't follow the standard structures. Some choruses are more clear than others, while others are a bit more ambiguous given the weird structures, but I think a lot if not most of these are fairly straightforward.

Although your second example from ITPOE (I judge as my eyes see), I'm not sure is a chorus. Maybe it is considered a chorus. Never considered it one personally. The "angels fall" is the main chorus.
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Offline JiM-Xtreme

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2014, 11:55:03 PM »
I always thought of the first vocal melody you hear in OAMOT as the chorus. "A suited man smiled and said "It's just a matter of time...""

As for Surrounded, it's the bit that ends with "Let the light surround you..." if you notice, that melody and chord sequence actually recurs in the soft intro and outro as well, making it a strong recurring theme.

Metropolis, you could argue has a couple of different ones, but I think the closest one is the section that goes "There's no more freedom..." and later "The city's cold blood teaches us to survive..."

To be honest, I don't think Space Dye Vest is meant to have a chorus, so to try and pick a section out of that song and give it that label would feel wrong.

The Great Debate. I believe this is intended to have two "choruses" to represent the two sides of the debate - "Are you justified?" and "Turn to the light..."

Endless Sacrifice - as Blob said, it's clear as day. This song has a pretty conventional structure by DT's standards, so I don't see any mystery about this one at all.

Panic Attack - I agree with TGP on this one, there's an A Chorus and a B Chorus.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2014, 02:33:50 AM »


Sycsa is perhaps the most brilliant and insightful man I have ever encountered.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2014, 06:19:15 AM »
Metropolis, you could argue has a couple of different ones, but I think the closest one is the section that goes "There's no more freedom..." and later "The city's cold blood teaches us to survive..."

I wouldn't consider those to be even close to choruses.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2014, 10:02:54 AM »
Metropolis has no choruses.

I don't understand the problem here.  One of the qualities of progressive rock is unusual song structures.  Maybe some songs don't have choruses.  Maybe some have multiple passages that could be construed as choruses.  No big deal.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 04:05:17 PM »
If we agree about the similarities of Outcry with Metropolis pt 1, following the idea that both have the same structure, then these parts...

[Before the fade out] "There's no more freedom..." and later [Before the instrumental section] "The city's cold blood teaches us to survive..."

... corresponds to these ones:

[Before the fade out]

"The rebel in us all - Someday gets tired of being pushed around
But freedom has a price - The cost is buried in the ground"

[Before the instrumental section]

"The streets are bathed in blood, time to step down and time to walk away
You'll never rule me now, though you may stand upon my grave"

According to the argument of "copy of structure" piece by piece, with which in fact I agree, then the chorus of Metropolis would be this one:

"As a child, I thought I could live without pain without sorrow
As a man I've found it's all caught up with me I'm asleep yet I'm so afraid"

and then, with different lyrics but within the same notes:

"There must be the third and last dance, this one will last forever
Metropolis watches and thoughtfully smiles she's taken you to your home"

Those are the fragments in the place that the chorus of Outcry is ("Rise up, be counted...")... Anyway, neither do I think Metropolis has a chorus..

Yet, about Surrounded, yes, this might be correct:

As for Surrounded, it's the bit that ends with "Let the light surround you..." if you notice, that melody and chord sequence actually recurs in the soft intro and outro as well, making it a strong recurring theme.

I never thought of it as a chorus, but, at least, it could have been intended that way...
For me, however, it's the whole paragraph.. So, this could be the chorus of Surrounded:

"And walking to the window
he throws the shutters out against the wall
And from an ivory tower hears her call
"Let light surround you""

and then, slightly different:

"He stands before the window
His shadow slowly fading from the wall
And from an ivory tower hears her call
"Let the light surround you""

Lastly, about OaMoT...

I always thought of the first vocal melody you hear in OAMOT as the chorus. "A suited man smiled and said "It's just a matter of time...""

... I guess you thought that was the chorus because in those lines it's said the name of the song... but, is not always like that with DT.. Either way I think that's another story, maybe for another topic...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 04:12:53 PM by ToT-147 »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 08:12:11 PM »
If we agree about the similarities of Outcry with Metropolis pt 1.....

Which we don't. Square peg, round hole.
There is no chorus in Metropolis. Shouldn't a chorus by definition have at least some repeated lines?
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2014, 08:58:20 PM »
If we agree about the similarities of Outcry with Metropolis pt 1.....

Which we don't. Square peg, round hole.
There is no chorus in Metropolis. Shouldn't a chorus by definition have at least some repeated lines?

Too many definitions of a chorus (mostly stuff like referring to a choir, or Greek drama  :lol ), but the one specifically pertaining to song structure that I could find is this: a part of a song that recurs at intervals, usually following each verse; refrain.

Wikipedia also defines it as such: "The chorus contains the main idea, or big picture, of what is being expressed lyrically and musically. It is repeated throughout the song, and the melody and lyric rarely vary."
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2014, 09:07:50 PM »
If we agree about the similarities of Outcry with Metropolis pt 1.....

Which we don't. Square peg, round hole.
There is no chorus in Metropolis. Shouldn't a chorus by definition have at least some repeated lines?

First: which YOU don't.. (FTFY)
Second: Square peg, round hole?.. Not in this case.. It's something very well known and proven already..
Third: I quote myself..
Anyway, neither do I think Metropolis has a chorus..

So, I agree with you about that..
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2014, 05:03:59 AM »
One thing to dispel the "similarity" between Metropolis and Outcry is, in fact, the presence of a chorus in Outcry.  No such animal in Metropolis.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2014, 09:40:30 AM »
One thing to dispel the "similarity" between Metropolis and Outcry is, in fact, the presence of a chorus in Outcry.  No such animal in Metropolis.

But of course, those who want so desperately for them to have the exact same structure, will keep hammering in the idea that the choruses of Outcry are parallel to certain parts of Metropolis anyway.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 03:31:50 PM »
Whatever.
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Offline RaiseTheKnife

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2014, 05:07:53 PM »
One thing to dispel the "similarity" between Metropolis and Outcry is, in fact, the presence of a chorus in Outcry.  No such animal in Metropolis.

Um, not really.  Yes, Outcry has a definitive refrain where Metropolis might not, but that doesn't discount the other structural similarities.   90% of the structure is similar and obvious to me.

For instance, for the refrain argument, just listen to
"There's No freedom" verse and the
"The rebel in us all" pre-chorus

Musically very different, but the "feel" is familiar - the "dragging" measure where the chord changes are delayed.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2014, 05:10:04 PM »
One thing to dispel the "similarity" between Metropolis and Outcry is, in fact, the presence of a chorus in Outcry.  No such animal in Metropolis.

But of course, those who want so desperately for them to have the exact same structure, will keep hammering in the idea that the choruses of Outcry are parallel to certain parts of Metropolis anyway.

Well of course they will, especially when the Outcry chorus parallels with a recurring melodic phrase in Metropolis, I can't really define with certainty one way or another whether Metropolis has a Chorus, but if it does have one by varying definitions then it'd be the melodic phrasing behind "As a child, I thought..." which correlates with "There must be the third and last dance" which is also the final sort of climax of the song.


If we agree about the similarities of Outcry with Metropolis pt 1.....

Which we don't. Square peg, round hole.
There is no chorus in Metropolis. Shouldn't a chorus by definition have at least some repeated lines?

Not necessarily, there are examples within the DT discog of variation in chorus'. Eg. Voices, A Rite of Passage, Endless Sacrifice, Innocence Faded.  All feature altered chorus' to varying degrees either with slight melody variation and/or completely different lyrics. I'm not even saying we can absolutely determine what the Chorus is in Metropolis or whether it has one or not but there is a featured recurring motif that funnily enough is also what the Home chorus stems from. Coincidence that the chorus of that song is influenced by this particular melody too? Maybe. Thing is, remember that the circle can sometimes fit inside the square even if the square can't fit the circle. :P

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2014, 07:44:09 PM »
Not necessarily, there are examples within the DT discog of variation in chorus'. Eg. Voices, A Rite of Passage, Endless Sacrifice, Innocence Faded.  All feature altered chorus' to varying degrees either with slight melody variation and/or completely different lyrics. I'm not even saying we can absolutely determine what the Chorus is in Metropolis or whether it has one or not but there is a featured recurring motif that funnily enough is also what the Home chorus stems from. Coincidence that the chorus of that song is influenced by this particular melody too? Maybe. Thing is, remember that the circle can sometimes fit inside the square even if the square can't fit the circle. :P

It's extremely common to have variations on a chorus, but the common thread is that they all still have repeated lines (the name of the song usually being included in that recurring lyric, but that's obviously not a rule), which is the definition of a chorus by any definition I've seen.
Having entirely different lyrics for a section that repeats structurally/melodically negates it being a chorus imo, as verses usually fit that definition too.
Also, I just looked back, and it seems the two vocal sections in Metropolis that you've noted correspond to choruses aren't the same notes or melodies anyway, unless you got the sections confused.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2014, 02:58:46 AM »
Okay, I concede it really is a stretch to identify those parts with my ambiguous as best, description of a chorus. I get what you mean about the melodies being a bit different, the thing is they form around a similar scale, after the first few bars you can kind of see this with the melody on the lines: Without so-row / Last forever. And those sections use the same chord progression (until the key change in the finale). I guess I'm just saying if anything was to be identified as something reminiscent of a chorus or recurring theme it'd be those parts.

I will say from a writers point of view, the instrumental structure of the music will be a lot more understood because they know how they pieced it together, certain parts will have change and variation on established motifs and the fact that it doesn't seem like this song repeats very often is certainly a testament to the composer's creative boundaries not being confined to a predictable pattern. I would contend that the patterns are still there though. I'll take a listen to the instrumental version at some point and see if these parts are similar enough to give any credibility to my assumption.  :lol

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2014, 09:43:36 AM »
The point is, just because people want so badly for Metropolis and Outcry to have the exact same structure, doesn't mean they should be forcing a "chorus" format onto Metropolis. It doesn't have a chorus. It's as simple as that.
Yes, the two parts mentioned to bear some similarity in style and scale, but aside from the fact that they're still not the same, don't repeat lyrics or even follow the same lyrical pattern, rhythmic pattern or rhyming scheme, the other criteria of a chorus is, "The chorus contains the main idea, or big picture, of what is being expressed lyrically and musically." And there's not one single line in Metropolis that captures.

In fact, the whole structure of the song proves that there's no chorus. As nonsensical as the lyrics are, there is a theme going on throughout. The lyrics are divided into 3 main sections, all of which end with talking about the three dances. "Death is the first dance eternal, there's no more freedom, the both of you will be confined to this mind."
Then, "Deceit is the second without end, the city's cold blood teaches us to survive, just keep my heart in your eyes and we'll stay alive, the third arrives," and the final of course is, "The third one is love, love is the dance of eternity."

I would say those sections are what decides where one verse ends and the next one begins, so the song itself I'd say has three verses. But since there's nothing in between those verses (aside from a massive instrumental section), certainly no lyric that wraps up the main idea of the song in a nutshell. Every part of the lyrics simply continues the story of the song, getting to the next point, and the next point, until the very end. It's simply lacking any lyrics that even serve the purpose of a chorus. There just isn't one, and it's perfectly okay. In fact, it's one of the aspects of Metropolis that makes it incredibly unique, and it's one of the things that I appreciate the most about it.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2014, 09:16:29 PM »
Let me ask about your thoughts, in the same vein, on these three other songs:

-Hollow Years
-Honor Thy Father
-A Nightmare to Remember

To specify, I always thought that Hollow Years has an "ambiguos" chorus.. I mean, in the old version is clear that the lines in between "Walk me across the water" and "And maybe you'll understand" makes this verse not part of the chorus, but a bridge among the verses and the actual chorus.. But, in the 'official' version that's no so clear, at least to me... The first few times I always ended up thinking that the chorus started in "Carry me to the shoreline", until always came in like a second chorus, which is probably the only and real one: "Once the stone".... This might be, yet, a very personal perspective on the song.. Not the same case in the next two..

Honor Thy Father.. Is it this one: "On and on and on and on...", is it this one: "How can you ever sleep a wink at night...", or neither of them?... If latter is the case, then this song has no chorus, which is a possible way to see it.. The sound and essence on both doesn't seem like a chorus.. But, again, this is very subjective I think (precisely :smiley:)
[Beside this, I've recently found the verse "Expecting everyone to bow and kiss your feet..." very similar to "I... want to stay alive...", chorus from TCoT... Just saying.. it's a nice part btw, along with "I tried your four bill therapy..."]

And with ANtR I think it's more like a song structure problem... Because, while at first I thought without a doubt that "Life was so simple then..." was the only chorus, then I remembered the 'Beautiful Agony' part... So, let's see: this song it's not split into parts, not denominatively speaking, since are obvious the big changes and transitions on it.. They could easily have divided the song in three or more sections, like ItPoE, 8V or Trial of Tears.. The thing is they didn't, and decided to repeat the chorus one more time (otherwise I guess it wouldn't be a chorus).. Anyway, "Life was so simple then..." it's repeated two times, but with different lines the second time.. Well, on the other side we got "Hopelessly drifting...", also repeated two times, BUT with the same lyrics in both ocassions.. So, there would not be more logic in this last one to be the chorus of the song, instead of the other?..

For those who didn't read anything I wrote up here: Does these three song have a chorus? Which one/ones?..
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 09:28:05 PM by ToT-147 »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 09:23:47 PM »
In Hollow Years, the "carry me to the shoreline...." bit is a pre-chorus (which as you say act like a bridge between verse and chorus without being part of the chorus itself), and "Once the stone...." is the chorus.

I'd have to check Honor Thy Father structurally to make up my mind on that one. I've actually never given that one much thought, even though I love the song.

For ANTR, I'd call them both choruses (actually, I'd say the "hopelessly drifting" lines are the pre-chorus, with the chorus itself starting on "in peaceful sedation"). I don't think there's any rule that repeating more lines makes it more prominent of a chorus, and I don't see any structural problem in that regard having multiple choruses. Choruses often repeat certain lines, while changing up others.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2014, 09:33:52 PM »
If we go by the characterization of chorus as including repeating lines (not just melodies), Disappear also appears not to have any chorus.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2014, 10:11:28 PM »
For ANTR, I'd call them both choruses (actually, I'd say the "hopelessly drifting" lines are the pre-chorus, with the chorus itself starting on "in peaceful sedation"). I don't think there's any rule that repeating more lines makes it more prominent of a chorus, and I don't see any structural problem in that regard having multiple choruses.

Yeah, I guess it's more like you said in brackets..

About the "structural problem" I was just referring the fact that it's a song in which, due its disposition, the chorus is not as common as any other would be, even in a long song, like Beyond this Life, or ItNoG.. I mean specifically to this 'choruses map' throughout the song: chorus A, chorus B, chorus B, chorus A.. I think in that ANtR is unique.. Only this song has such structure that can make this symmetric but strange sequence happen..

In other words, it's as if Beautiful Agony, and with it its chorus obviously, were in brackets in the middle of the song.. ;D

If we go by the characterization of chorus as including repeating lines (not just melodies), Disappear also appears not to have any chorus.

At least I'd don't go by that definition..
I understand this as the chorus of Disappear:

A day like today
My whole world has been changed
Nothing you say
Will help ease my pain

Days disappear
And my world keeps changing
I feel you here
And it keeps me sane
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2014, 10:26:28 PM »
There are some repeated words in there, and there is a symmetry to the lines of the two sections even where they differ. It might be intended as a chorus, although not a traditional one.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2014, 11:42:33 PM »
If we go by the characterization of chorus as including repeating lines (not just melodies), Disappear also appears not to have any chorus.

At least I'd don't go by that definition..
I understand this as the chorus of Disappear:

A day like today
My whole world has been changed
Nothing you say
Will help ease my pain

Days disappear
And my world keeps changing
I feel you here
And it keeps me sane

Yeah, I can see the structural similarities there. My problem with those being the choruses is that they do not have that "climax" effect, which I believe is one of the main functions of a chorus. It's absent in the last third of the song, which is the highlight.

Offline RaiseTheKnife

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2014, 12:41:50 AM »
^^^  Also, syllable-wise, they are identical.  It probably would be considered a "refrain" by most songwriters.  ^^^^

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2014, 06:54:38 AM »
Yeah, I don't think that is a chorus at all.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2014, 08:31:24 AM »
I do think that if the melodic pattern is the same, it can be considered a chorus, even if it's not identical.

For example, the little variations in Honor Thy Father, between "so ignorant" "oblivious" and "so fucking blind". In spite of that line changing and getting more intense every time, I'd still say that's very much a chorus. And "On and On and on and on it goes" is the beginning of the chorus.

Heck, even in songs like Home, I would personally say that even though it's different every time, each one of these is a chorus, or at least a refrain that serves the purpose of a chorus:

Quote
The city, it calls to me, decadent scenes from my memory,
Sorrow, eternity, my demons are coming to drown me,
Help, I'm falling, I'm crawling, I can't keep away from its clutch,
Can't have it, this habit, it's calling me back to my home,

Her ecstasy, means so much to me, even deceiving my own blood,
Victoria watches and thoughtfully smiles, she's taking me to my home,
Help, he's my bother, but I love her, I can't keep away from her touch,
Deception, dishonor, it's calling me back to my home,


Her story, it holds the key, unlocking dreams from my memory,
Solving this mystery is everything that is a part of me,
Help, regression, obsession, I can't keep away from its clutch,
Leave no doubt, to find out, it's calling me back to my home.

But in the case of Disappear, those lines really don't serve the purpose of a chorus. At least in my opinion, they have a recurring melodic pattern, but it just continues the thoughts from the verses, instead of reflecting on it, the way Home does, or the way a normal chorus would kind of reflect on the subject matter of the verses.

In Hollow Years, the "carry me to the shoreline...." bit is a pre-chorus (which as you say act like a bridge between verse and chorus without being part of the chorus itself), and "Once the stone...." is the chorus.

It's definitely a pre-chorus, but it may as well be a chorus. I think the whole point of a pre-chorus is that it's not always there. Like, for example in Home, I would say the part that goes, "Home, home, it's what I long for, back home where I belong" or "My home where she belongs" is the pre-chorus. After which, the chorus, as I laid out above, follows.
However, the very last time, after the instrumental section, the pre-chorus "home, home, it's what I long for" part doesn't happen, so that chorus occurs without the pre-chorus.

Whereas in Hollow Years, the pre-chorus happens each and every single time before the chorus, so it may as well be considered a part of it. But yes, technically it is a pre-chorus.

But I think either way, when it comes to repeating melodic patterns, variation on lyrics, and things like that, it can be somewhat subjective about whether it's a chorus, a refrain, or just a specific recurring verse structure like in Only A Matter of Time.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2014, 08:49:00 AM »
Hollow Years is a case where I judge it by the change in feel from verse>pre>chorus rather than solely by structure alone. Whether or not it's structurally necessary to label it as a pre-chorus, I don't know, but I think that song is straightforward enough to label it as such without any worry.

I agree on Home. Despite the quite different lyrics, it's the same melody every time, and most importantly, it ends with "it's calling me back to my home". When in doubt, the part that gives the song its title is very likely your chorus. :tup Ok, the bit you could call the pre-chorus also repeats "home", but that's not too unusual either.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2014, 09:10:56 AM »
See, that's where the Pre-Chorus label becomes important, as I see it. Because while normally the part that does repeat the title would be considered the chorus, and the "Home, home, it's what I long for" is definitely the beginning of the chorus section, it always preceeds the main chorus, and never occurs on its own, so, I guess it CAN be considered Chorus A, where the other part is Chorus B, but really, because it never occurs on its own, and the way it ends feels inconclusive, like there's supposed to be something that follows it, that's why I consider it a pre-chorus.
I mean, can you imagine how anticlimactic it would be if the very last lyrics of the song were, "Home, home, it's what I long for,
my home, where she belongs," and then boom, it goes into that crazy little keyboard solo and concludes. It just leaves you hanging, lol.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2014, 09:14:14 AM »
I agree. It's one of those situations that I think is easier to label intuitively rather than try to analyze the structure too hard.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2014, 09:34:42 AM »
I'm really not sure how to classify the "This world is spinning around me," parts of PMU. There's 3 of them, they all have some variation in the lyrics, and they almost come off as pre-choruses, except that the first one doesn't actually preceed a chorus, and even the latter two have a brief instrumental section separating them from the choruses. Would they be considered "Chorus A" whereas "Pull me under I'm not afraid," be Chorus B? I'm honestly not sure.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: What are the chorus in these DT songs?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2014, 09:42:37 AM »
I'm really not sure how to classify the "This world is spinning around me," parts of PMU. There's 3 of them, they all have some variation in the lyrics, and they almost come off as pre-choruses, except that the first one doesn't actually preceed a chorus, and even the latter two have a brief instrumental section separating them from the choruses. Would they be considered "Chorus A" whereas "Pull me under I'm not afraid," be Chorus B? I'm honestly not sure.

It's common to tease with a pre-chorus the first time without a chorus, then get the payoff of a chorus later. A pre-chorus doesn't always have to precede the chorus. I don't think the instrumental break is too big to negate that possibility either, it's like a post-pre-chorus pre-chorus instrumental break. :lol
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