(Now online!) Interviewing Mike Mangini in a few days, give me your questions!

[adamack]

To OP: Thanks so much for taking the time to do this interview!

About to read it now.

I have a minor request though. Could you possibly edit your original post and put the link to the interview in it? It took me awhile to find the link in this thread, as I had to go back and search for it. For those who haven't read it yet, it'd make it easy for them if it was in your first post.

Thanks in advance, excited to read this!

[nikatapi]

To OP: Thanks so much for taking the time to do this interview!

About to read it now.

I have a minor request though. Could you possibly edit your original post and put the link to the interview in it? It took me awhile to find the link in this thread, as I had to go back and search for it. For those who haven't read it yet, it'd make it easy for them if it was in your first post.

Thanks in advance, excited to read this!

I did that edit, thanks for your suggestion, i hope you enjoy reading this.

[TAC]

Nice job, Nick. Great questions. I have never once heard the humming in OTBOA brought up before. I've actually never heard the hum myself.

[Dave_Manchester]

Excellent interview, these things are always so much better and more interesting when an informed fan does them. Thanks for taking the time to type all that up.

[rumborak]

Excellent interview, these things are always so much better and more interesting when an informed fan does them.

This, totally. The reason I don't read most interviews is because the questions are so generic that you could plant a different artist into the scene, and you'd still get the same answers. It's like this.

[sneakyblueberry]

Great interview, good work Nikos!

[nikatapi]

Thank you for the kind words, i really appreciate it coming from you, and i wanted to be an interview that would interest us all, we are DT nerds after all, and personally i don't like to see the same old questions answered everytime. I think Mike understood that and this is why we went into such detail in his answers.

[mikeyd23]

I'll echo everyone else by saying thanks, this really was an interesting read!

I find his thoughts on getting good clear isolation between his "ride" components on the kit and his toms really interesting. Maybe the guys should consider spending a little more time getting drum sounds next time around in the studio as MM suggests. At this point DT are in the studio so long writing and recording, in the grand scheme of things spending four or five days getting the drum sound right instead of one or two days isn't really that big a deal. And MM seems to think it'll help...

[Rodni Demental]

It seems like he was saying he's not entirely responsible for the final drum sound in the most polite way possible, but if it were up to him he'd take a very long time to tweak and alter every detail until he's satisfied. 

Although when he talks about 80 track drum layers it really puts it in perspective what a crazy job it'd be to manage all that stuff.

Anyway, fantastic insightful interview. Thanks nikatapi and of course thank you Mike. 

[rumborak]

@mikeyd: The other option would be to decrease the size of the drum kit. I mean, his current kit is so jampacked, you hit a tom, and five other items will resonate because they are so close by.

Overall actually, what I took away from that interview is that there is a "sound war" going on in DT. Because JR's patches have enormous low end, and reverb, and overdrive, and JP's guitar is supposed to sound like rich chocolate cake, and MM's drums span the whole frequency and intensity spectrum, I think they find themselves recording stuff, and then try to squeeze into the available sonic space. And one way or the other, someone has to give.

[erwinrafael]

I like how he said he adjusted his playing with the cymbals when he found that his snare sound is not allowing him to do usual snare stuff like ghost notes. Looks like he is still very open to learning even at his level and age.

[TheGreatPretender]

I like how he said he adjusted his playing with the cymbals when he found that his snare sound is not allowing him to do usual snare stuff like ghost notes. Looks like he is still very open to learning even at his level and age.

Not unlike Neil Peart.

[MoraWintersoul]

Excellent interview, really enjoyed it

[devieira73]

@mikeyd: The other option would be to decrease the size of the drum kit. I mean, his current kit is so jampacked, you hit a tom, and five other items will resonate because they are so close by.

I don't know, still it seems that something is going wrong with the DT album's production nowadays... Mike Portnoy's kit was also very jampacked since FII and always sounded big and very clear since then.

[Kotowboy]

It seems like he was saying he's not entirely responsible for the final drum sound in the most polite way possible, but if it were up to him he'd take a very long time to tweak and alter every detail until he's satisfied. 

Although when he talks about 80 track drum layers it really puts it in perspective what a crazy job it'd be to manage all that stuff.

Anyway, fantastic insightful interview. Thanks nikatapi and of course thank you Mike. 

I imagine they'd group sections of the kit i.e. toms snare bass cymbals and then slave them all to a L & R fader.

With digital recording you can do virtual tracks and all sorts of groupings so it's not as hard as it would be on analog and tape.

[mikeyd23]

@mikeyd: The other option would be to decrease the size of the drum kit. I mean, his current kit is so jampacked, you hit a tom, and five other items will resonate because they are so close by.

Yep, that's definitely the other option! MM seems pretty keen on keeping the big kit so I don't know how realistic that option is.

I don't know, still it seems that something is going wrong with the DT album's production nowadays... Mike Portnoy's kit was also very jampacked since FII and always sounded big and very clear since then.

Two thoughts come to mind: (1) MP was one of the producers so he maintained the drum sound throughout the entire process, from setup to tracking to recording to mixing to mastering. He ensured the drums sat in a place in the final mix in which the details of his playing could be heard. This is pretty much human nature, wanting to make sure his contributions were clearly heard. You can see the same thing with JP now, the guitars are louder than usual because that's the human tendency.

(2) MP's kit was set up very different from MM's. So it's not always about the amount of channels the kit takes up but more about how those mics are positioned in the room in relation to one another. MP's set up was a little more traditional than MM's for the most part. He basically had two pretty widely used drum kit configurations put together, so engineers could probably tackle that project with a little more ease than MM's kit. Just my thoughts...

[rumborak]

On “Dream Theater”, I learned a lot about the feel with the time changes because my snare sound was completely different for me, I didn’t come up with it, and I evolved and changed because of that, here’s what I did: That really different sound made me put ghost notes off of the snare and on to ride cymbals and hi-hats, so essentially because of that change that was suggested to me, and because I was able to adapt to someone else’s ideas, I grew. I want to be clear about that, if I’m too stubborn with things that I want, the way I want them, how do you grow? But if something new comes along and I think “wow, this is really not what I want” but I’ll do it because people have a vision for something, I know that they trust me, that I’m a good guy, then let’s do it together, let’s work together and we’ll follow it.

This is a weird part in the interview. I mean, it's great that he's such a team player, but the phrases "I didn't come up with the snare sound" and "wow, this is really not what I want, but I'll do it for the greater good" made me scratch my head. Who imposed this sound on him? And, I'm not a drummer, but isn't being robbed of the ability of playing ghost notes usually a no-go for drummers?

[TheGreatPretender]

Can someone explain to me the whole ghost note thing. I know what they are, but I'm not sure I understand what their purpose is in drumming, nor do I understand how or why he'd be robbed of the ghost notes on his snare. Can someone explain this to me, please?

[rumborak]

Well, I'm assuming you know that ghost notes are very unaccented hits (usually the snare). Their purpose is that they infusee a given beat with dynamics and groove.
MM got "robbed" of them because the compression/gating on the snare sound caused them either to be completely cut out (gated) or the same volume as the main hits (compression).

I'm assuming the "vision" MM speaks of was coming from JP. So, when they set up the studio for the writing sessions, they must have approximated the drum sound enough that MM noticed ghost notes don't work, so he adjusted his playing to try to play some of it on the ride cbals. Not the same thing though really.

EDIT: Check out Gavin Harrison:
https://youtu.be/tLLx4zKyKwk

Listen only to the snare, the stuff he does between the main hits. Those are ghost notes.

[TheGreatPretender]

Okay, I see. I'm still not sure I understand why there was absolutely no way of getting around that, like by compressing some parts and not others, or by recording the ghost notes on a separate track and leaving them uncompressed, or something. But hey, what do I know?

[Sycsa]

And I'm scratching my head because there are plenty of ghost notes on DT12 played on the snare, listen to the pre-chorus of Behind the Veil for instance (2:57). Even MP managed to get some ghost notes on the triggered I&W snare (LtL).

[KevShmev]

  (1) MP was one of the producers so he maintained the drum sound throughout the entire process, from setup to tracking to recording to mixing to mastering. He ensured the drums sat in a place in the final mix in which the details of his playing could be heard. This is pretty much human nature, wanting to make sure his contributions were clearly heard. You can see the same thing with JP now, the guitars are louder than usual because that's the human tendency.

 

This is all probably true, and it's why Dream Theater should not produce their own stuff.  A producer's job is to get the best out of the entire band, not to make sure his parts stand out the most or whatever, especially at the expense of the others.

[TheGreatPretender]

  (1) MP was one of the producers so he maintained the drum sound throughout the entire process, from setup to tracking to recording to mixing to mastering. He ensured the drums sat in a place in the final mix in which the details of his playing could be heard. This is pretty much human nature, wanting to make sure his contributions were clearly heard. You can see the same thing with JP now, the guitars are louder than usual because that's the human tendency.

 

This is all probably true, and it's why Dream Theater should not produce their own stuff.  A producer's job is to get the best out of the entire band, not to make sure his parts stand out the most or whatever, especially at the expense of the others.

I also never understood why the engineer doesn't do this.

[erwinrafael]

On “Dream Theater”, I learned a lot about the feel with the time changes because my snare sound was completely different for me, I didn’t come up with it, and I evolved and changed because of that, here’s what I did: That really different sound made me put ghost notes off of the snare and on to ride cymbals and hi-hats, so essentially because of that change that was suggested to me, and because I was able to adapt to someone else’s ideas, I grew. I want to be clear about that, if I’m too stubborn with things that I want, the way I want them, how do you grow? But if something new comes along and I think “wow, this is really not what I want” but I’ll do it because people have a vision for something, I know that they trust me, that I’m a good guy, then let’s do it together, let’s work together and we’ll follow it.

This is a weird part in the interview. I mean, it's great that he's such a team player, but the phrases "I didn't come up with the snare sound" and "wow, this is really not what I want, but I'll do it for the greater good" made me scratch my head. Who imposed this sound on him? And, I'm not a drummer, but isn't being robbed of the ability of playing ghost notes usually a no-go for drummers?

I think JP and Chycki are the ones who have a vision of the overall sound of the album (you can hear the different sound also with the bass which is very lud but trebly). MM adjusted and played in accordance with this overall vision.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think JP and Chycki are the ones who have a vision of the overall sound of the album (you can hear the different sound also with the bass which is very lud but trebly). MM adjusted and played in accordance with this overall vision.

I have to admit though, I dug that bass.

[Ravenfoul]

I think JP and Chycki are the ones who have a vision of the overall sound of the album (you can hear the different sound also with the bass which is very lud but trebly). MM adjusted and played in accordance with this overall vision.

I have to admit though, I dug that bass.

Bass sounded 10/10 for me on DT12.

[TheGreatPretender]

Of course, now I absolutely can't get that "I'm all about dat bass" song out of my head. Dammit!

[Madman Shepherd]

A producer for a band is a lot like a director for a movie.  They have most of the say in what the final product is.  Sure there is some label (i.e. studio) involvement in a lot of bands (films) but if there is not then the producer (director) has complete control. 

[TheGreatPretender]

A producer for a band is a lot like a director for a movie.  They have most of the say in what the final product is.  Sure there is some label (i.e. studio) involvement in a lot of bands (films) but if there is not then the producer (director) has complete control.

The funny thing about this analogy is that in the case of non-pop acts, usually, the writers and the "cast" (band members) are the same people. And in the case of a lot of them, Dream Theater included, they've always been adamant that what they wrote, their vision is what the final product was. With I&W, based on every single demo that I've heard, aside from Oliver's Twist, that pretty much didn't change at all, aside from a couple of riffs that got extended, or little things here and there, but overall, listening to demos for those old songs, even the Charlie Dominici version of Metropolis, it largely stayed in tact, so in spite of all the crap that Prater got, at least he didn't try to change the actual compositions or dumb down what they wrote.

It's with FII that you can hear the REAL difference between the demos and the final product, especially in cases like Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, Burning My Soul, etc.

But overall, with DT's past producers, I'd say as far as comparing them to "film directors", they've pretty much followed the original "script and the storyboards" very closely. So I guess in their particular case, they'd be pretty useless if they didn't take care of how things sound and the tone of things.

But if we're going to be making film comparisons, then the engineer would be like the Director Of Photography, and they'd be the ones making sure that things look good and taking care of the technical aspects of the camera work, the focus, etc.
So in the case of engineers, they make sure that the final vision is what the producer wants. But I don't see why they can't say, "Listen, this is not going to sound good. Listen to what's happening to the ghost notes," etc.

[Madman Shepherd]

Don't have anything to add other than your post was spot on. 

[Skeever]

A producer for a band is a lot like a director for a movie.  They have most of the say in what the final product is.  Sure there is some label (i.e. studio) involvement in a lot of bands (films) but if there is not then the producer (director) has complete control.

The funny thing about this analogy is that in the case of non-pop acts, usually, the writers and the "cast" (band members) are the same people. And in the case of a lot of them, Dream Theater included, they've always been adamant that what they wrote, their vision is what the final product was. With I&W, based on every single demo that I've heard, aside from Oliver's Twist, that pretty much didn't change at all, aside from a couple of riffs that got extended, or little things here and there, but overall, listening to demos for those old songs, even the Charlie Dominici version of Metropolis, it largely stayed in tact, so in spite of all the crap that Prater got, at least he didn't try to change the actual compositions or dumb down what they wrote.

It's with FII that you can hear the REAL difference between the demos and the final product, especially in cases like Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, Burning My Soul, etc.

But overall, with DT's past producers, I'd say as far as comparing them to "film directors", they've pretty much followed the original "script and the storyboards" very closely. So I guess in their particular case, they'd be pretty useless if they didn't take care of how things sound and the tone of things.

But if we're going to be making film comparisons, then the engineer would be like the Director Of Photography, and they'd be the ones making sure that things look good and taking care of the technical aspects of the camera work, the focus, etc.
So in the case of engineers, they make sure that the final vision is what the producer wants. But I don't see why they can't say, "Listen, this is not going to sound good. Listen to what's happening to the ghost notes," etc.

I don't agree at all. I listen to DT12, and on every song there's a frill or two that I think, "man, if only someone would have suggested they take their feet off the gas there".

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't agree at all. I listen to DT12, and on every song there's a frill or two that I think, "man, if only someone would have suggested they take their feet off the gas there".

But, that sounds like you ARE agreeing.

[hefdaddy42]

If I couldn't ghost note on the snare, I would never make it through a performance.  That's what gives you the groove.

[erwinrafael]

If I couldn't ghost note on the snare, I would never make it through a performance.  That's what gives you the groove.

maybe that's the reason why MM does that Left and Right hi-hat playing in the first stanza of IT and in the instrumental of TLG, doing ghost-note like hits with the cymbals. He did not do that much in ADTOE (for example, he used a lot of ghost notes in the snare in the slow guitar solo in BAI).

[Onno]

Great interview; thanks OP! Also, I didn't know about the ToT jam. It sounds really good!