Author Topic: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results  (Read 12974 times)

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Offline Tony From Long Island

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2016, 07:03:33 AM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2016, 07:09:02 AM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?

Nope, just The Astonishing.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2016, 08:05:31 AM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?

Are there people staying away?  I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2016, 10:14:36 AM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?

Are there people staying away?  I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.
Only if by "staying away" you mean "Some people that normally try to catch DT aren't doing so on this tour because of what they are playing, but that is freeing up some seats for some other people who still want to see DT". 

They aren't suffering as far as audience numbers or seats sold, that's for sure.
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Offline Mosh

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2016, 10:19:28 AM »
Denver was pretty close to sold out. I was actually pretty surprised because there was also no bitching that they were playing the entire new album.
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2016, 12:20:12 PM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?

Are there people staying away?  I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.

First time they are under 3k in montreal since the ADTOE tour
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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2016, 01:11:27 PM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?

Are there people staying away?  I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.

First time they are under 3k in montreal since the ADTOE tour

One data point does not show a trend.  I'm not saying you are wrong, from this thread, i just don't see enough data to say any conclusions was more my point I was getting at.  I'm curious if we could actually graph the attendance over multiple tours for a few cities to see trends.    From what you are saying, it sounds like the ADTOE and DT12 tours were better attended than TA or anything before ADTOE which is interesting in and of itself too.

Offline jsbru

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2016, 12:50:16 PM »
Chicago seemed sold out...I couldn't see any empty seats.  Maybe there were some still left in the far corners of the upper balcony.  It was a really good show.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2016, 07:20:04 AM »
Yeah the show in Greensburg was just as well attended for TA tour as it was for the DT12 tour at the same venue a couple years ago.

Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2016, 07:51:11 PM »
I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing.     I am one of those people.       Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing?     I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991.  They did a few other songs before and after it.     Is DT doing the same?

Are there people staying away?  I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.

First time they are under 3k in montreal since the ADTOE tour

One data point does not show a trend.  I'm not saying you are wrong, from this thread, i just don't see enough data to say any conclusions was more my point I was getting at.  I'm curious if we could actually graph the attendance over multiple tours for a few cities to see trends.    From what you are saying, it sounds like the ADTOE and DT12 tours were better attended than TA or anything before ADTOE which is interesting in and of itself too.

Got the numbers for Montréal

ADTOE 2850
DT 12.  3086
TA.       2687

So it's a little less but not that much.


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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2016, 05:40:20 AM »
Interesting though, are those all at the same venue and time of the week.  Those might be important too, a 13% drop in attendance is still a decent drop, but maybe weekend/weekday and/or venue(if there was a change) could impact the numbers slightly.

Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2016, 12:28:57 PM »
Tour ADTOE Friday, venue:  Place des arts, capacity 3100

        DT12 Friday, venue:  Bell center Theater, capacity 3900

        TA    Friday, venue:    same

So they played all last 3 tours on Friday nights which is a good night for concerts I think.

I was at Place des arts and remember that the place looked almost sold out.
For DT 12, I remember thinking that it looked like there was more people because the place is bigger. 

Honestly, from what I have heard, TA is not as much appreciated here.  It explains why the crowd was not as big.  Still, for some people, it's a great album. And more popular towards the female fans.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2016, 01:13:09 PM »
Tour ADTOE Friday, venue:  Place des arts, capacity 3100

        DT12 Friday, venue:  Bell center Theater, capacity 3900

        TA    Friday, venue:    same

So they played all last 3 tours on Friday nights which is a good night for concerts I think.

I was at Place des arts and remember that the place looked almost sold out.
For DT 12, I remember thinking that it looked like there was more people because the place is bigger. 

Honestly, from what I have heard, TA is not as much appreciated here.  It explains why the crowd was not as big.  Still, for some people, it's a great album. And more popular towards the female fans.

Yea, that actually supports the idea that people were not as interested in seeing it live.  Thanks for getting the info, I think it's cool to see this even if it does disappoint.  I totally understand it though, TA was awesome live, but the presentation and the album itself is not for everyone.

Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2016, 01:36:16 PM »
Yea, that actually supports the idea that people were not as interested in seeing it live. 

No, not really.  I mean, that MAY have been the case, but that data alone doesn't prove it at all.  For starters, that isn't really that big of a dropoff.  And second of all, we have no idea WHY there was a dropoff.  There could be any number of explanations.  For example (and these are completely hypothetical):
-Maybe if you look at the last 5 albums, there is a general down trend, with the DT12 tour being an anomaly.  Or maybe the numbers have been fairly consistent and bounced around in the range between the ADTOE and Astonishing tours with DT12 being the anomaly.  (and maybe more people came to the DT12 shows because they heard it was a special tour, with the Awake and SFAM anniversary sets or the playing of SDV)
-Maybe people were put off by the slightly higher ticket prices this time around rather than the show itself.
-Maybe people that got to experience DT in this venue last time didn't like the venue and didn't come back for that reason.
-Maybe, as Red Barchetta posted in his review of the DT12 tour, the audience just didn't seem to get into it on that tour, and so when this tour rolled around, some people just weren't as into seeing the band again no matter what they would have been playing.  Quote:
You're right about the crowd.  Maybe DT should have played a bit more of old songs.  By itself, the crowd was not showing much excitement. 
-Maybe people didn't like the sound during the DT12 show.  As some said in the reviews in that thread, it was uncomfortably loud and distorted, at least in some parts of the theater.
-Maybe the tour just wasn't promoted as well this time around and not as many people knew about it.

Again, we just don't have enough info to draw any conclusions from the data, especially date from a single city that doesn't really show much of a dropoff at all and doesn't give a longer historical perspective for how the band has done in that city.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2016, 01:47:28 PM »
I'd love to see more data.  I'm kind of curious now as to why DT12 had a higher turn out if the historical data showed a downward trend and if there is a downward trend, then TA might actually fall in line with that, but I still believe 13% less people is a sign of not wanting to see the show and the example reasons why are still valid and it may not directly have to do with TA (ticket prices, venue choice).

Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2016, 01:53:47 PM »
Maybe and maybe not.  We just don't know.  "I still believe" isn't proof.  There are way too many variables to draw any conclusions.
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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2016, 02:02:52 PM »
Promotion could be part of it. At least here in Denver, there was a pretty heavy (for DT standards) promotional cycle for their show here on the DT12 tour and pretty much nothing this time around. I would've had no idea they were playing here if I wasn't a DT fan. That said, they still did well here so who knows.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2016, 02:08:42 PM »
Maybe and maybe not.  We just don't know.  "I still believe" isn't proof.  There are way too many variables to draw any conclusions.

Of course it is not proof.  Never said it was, just the data "supports the idea" which it definitely does because there was a drop off, but it is not conclusive because you are right, there are too many variables.  But more data from previous tours (to see the larger trend) and more cities could make this more conclusive.  I just find it all interesting, not trying to shit on DT or TA.  I love both and definitely wish the numbers grew (and maybe they did).

Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2016, 08:14:20 PM »
Yea, that actually supports the idea that people were not as interested in seeing it live. 

No, not really.  I mean, that MAY have been the case, but that data alone doesn't prove it at all.  For starters, that isn't really that big of a dropoff.  And second of all, we have no idea WHY there was a dropoff.  There could be any number of explanations.  For example (and these are completely hypothetical):
-Maybe if you look at the last 5 albums, there is a general down trend, with the DT12 tour being an anomaly.  Or maybe the numbers have been fairly consistent and bounced around in the range between the ADTOE and Astonishing tours with DT12 being the anomaly.  (and maybe more people came to the DT12 shows because they heard it was a special tour, with the Awake and SFAM anniversary sets or the playing of SDV)
-Maybe people were put off by the slightly higher ticket prices this time around rather than the show itself.
-Maybe people that got to experience DT in this venue last time didn't like the venue and didn't come back for that reason.
-Maybe, as Red Barchetta posted in his review of the DT12 tour, the audience just didn't seem to get into it on that tour, and so when this tour rolled around, some people just weren't as into seeing the band again no matter what they would have been playing.  Quote:
You're right about the crowd.  Maybe DT should have played a bit more of old songs.  By itself, the crowd was not showing much excitement. 
-Maybe people didn't like the sound during the DT12 show.  As some said in the reviews in that thread, it was uncomfortably loud and distorted, at least in some parts of the theater.
-Maybe the tour just wasn't promoted as well this time around and not as many people knew about it.

Again, we just don't have enough info to draw any conclusions from the data, especially date from a single city that doesn't really show much of a dropoff at all and doesn't give a longer historical perspective for how the band has done in that city.

The sound at DT12 was loud but good. DT12 and TA were both played in a bigger venue. The building is huge and most of the seats on the higher levels are covered. They play in a 21000 people place but only with 4000 seats available in front and around the stage. The level of crowd response during the live act of TA was low but I have read that a lot during this tour in other places. Still, a 3000 crowd in a huge place can't sound like the top of the building will blow up.

When they play Place des arts in 2011, it's a perfect place. 2900 tickets were sold out of the maximum 3100 venue capacity. The sound was better and the scream from the crowd was clear and well heard.
Maybe they moved to a bigger place expecting selling more.

A 13% less sales is not that much but they would not like it on a whole tour. I have tried to find their numbers for the records sales since their beginning but it seems impossible to know. For those who have followed the band since their beginning or so, which it's not my case, I'm sure that at one point they have reached a peak in popularity. Maybe they are at their best popularity time. I don't know but it is still possible even with a controversial album for many like TA.

But if we could have the sales of the last 3 MP albums and the 3 MM ones, it would be very interesting.

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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2016, 05:48:34 AM »
One thing I was thinking about is just the downward trend in general of concerts and album sales.  The industry (from what I understand and maybe I can be proven wrong) has been on a decline for awhile.  I'm curious as to why the DT12 tour cycle was so much more successful than previous tours.  Was it the setlist with the anniversary songs?  Was it the fact they went back to an evening with format?  Was DT12 just a really popular album? 

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2016, 06:01:59 AM »
Comparing record sales isn't going to tell you much about DT, it's going to tell you more about the record industry. Besides the mega-pop stars, record sales are continually declining industry-wide.

Offline Tony From Long Island

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2016, 08:25:52 AM »
Either way, the numbers are still very good for a band that has been around as long as DT.    I just feel that there are a significant amount   (yes, that is subjective . . . could be 15 people per show, could be 1,500 . . . ) who don't want to see The Astonishing, especially in its entirety with nothing else being played.

I'll wait for the next tour.  With the amount of material and albums DT has, for this to be THE FIRST ONE I don't like, is pretty remarkable.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2016, 08:28:21 AM »
Comparing record sales isn't going to tell you much about DT, it's going to tell you more about the record industry. Besides the mega-pop stars, record sales are continually declining industry-wide.
Yup, very true.  And DT's curve seems to be slower than the industry as a whole, at least on the metal side of things.  So comparatively speaking, they are doing well I guess.  There just isn't a whole lot of money to be made on album sales anymore unless a band is HUGE. 
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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2016, 08:29:30 AM »
Either way, the numbers are still very good for a band that has been around as long as DT.    I just feel that there are a significant amount   (yes, that is subjective . . . could be 15 people per show, could be 1,500 . . . ) who don't want to see The Astonishing, especially in its entirety with nothing else being played.

I am 100% positive that is the case.  But Red Barchetta likes to pretend he can prove that folks are staying away in droves because they hate the album, when that is far from the case.
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2016, 09:02:01 AM »
Either way, the numbers are still very good for a band that has been around as long as DT.    I just feel that there are a significant amount   (yes, that is subjective . . . could be 15 people per show, could be 1,500 . . . ) who don't want to see The Astonishing, especially in its entirety with nothing else being played.

I am 100% positive that is the case.  But Red Barchetta likes to pretend he can prove that folks are staying away in droves because they hate the album, when that is far from the case.

????  I think that some people are less interested by TA and then don't go to the show.  Could be 15 or 1500, yes I agree with that.  Hating or not liking it, who cares, the album is not worth to go to the show for some people.  Could be 15 or 1500 per show.
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Offline Anguyen92

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2016, 10:37:07 AM »
All right, from this week's boxscore.

Dream Theater   Fox Theater   Oakland, Calif.   May 8, 2016   $114,746   1,732 / 1,859   1 / 0   $85, $49.50   Another Planet Entertainment

Dream Theater   State Theatre   Minneapolis, Minn.   May 1, 2016   $86,056   1,658 / 2,080   1 / 0   $70.50, $30.50   Emporium Presents

Nothing to brag about  in terms of selling out the shows, but these still look well-attended enough (I think around 80% or more of the capacity is at least ok).

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2016, 10:41:01 AM »
Nice, seeing DT in Minny is cheap!

Offline goo-goo

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2016, 11:57:01 AM »
I wonder what Dream Theater's fee is....
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Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2016, 12:21:00 PM »
Generally, it depends on the venue.  The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly. 
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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2016, 01:06:04 PM »
Generally, it depends on the venue.  The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.

I thought DT's fees was guaranteed, like 30k per show, and not depending on the venue...I can see the rent of the venue how it would vary from place to place, but not DT's fee.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2016, 01:08:57 PM »
I'm guessing the size of the market comes into play. For instance, I'd guess DT's fee is higher in New York city than it is in Greensburg (the show I went to on this tour).

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2016, 01:34:01 PM »
Generally, it depends on the venue.  The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.

I thought DT's fees was guaranteed, like 30k per show, and not depending on the venue...I can see the rent of the venue how it would vary from place to place, but not DT's fee.

Where are you getting that info?  The way it usually works is that the band does negotiate for a "guarantee," which means they get paid their full fee regardless of how many tickets actually sell.  But that does not mean the guarantees are the same at every venue they play in.  They may have, for example, $30k to play at the Fox Theater in Oakland, and $27k to play in Minneapolis, and $33k to play in NYC.  (numbers are completely made up for purposes of illustration only)
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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2016, 01:59:55 PM »
I would love an inside look on the business of a band.  I'm not really a business guy so maybe it's just my love for the music that makes it so interesting to me, but my curiosities spike when we talk about the numbers from a concert and how that translates to profits (or loss) for the band members. 

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Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2016, 02:19:47 PM »
I would love an inside look on the business of a band.  I'm not really a business guy so maybe it's just my love for the music that makes it so interesting to me, but my curiosities spike when we talk about the numbers from a concert and how that translates to profits (or loss) for the band members. 

It's interesting stuff.  From the outside, without giving it much thought, it is easy to think along the lines of, "Well, if they sell X tickets for a show, and the tickets cost Y, the total is Z, so let's assume the band gets 50% (or whatever number), and the rest just gets split between all the other people who get paid."  But that isn't really how it works at all.  The model is more like this:

-Band management negotiates with local promoters for their guarantees for particular venues.  The promoter then negotiates directly with the venue, local radio stations, vendors, etc. 
-Contract is ultimately agreed to that entitles "the Band" (not the band members, but rather the band's corporate entity) to a certain guaranteed amount for playing the show (and there can sometimes be contingencies that cause the guarantee to fluctuate).  The contract will also specific how much others get paid (the venue, outside security, the promotion company, local advertisers, ticket sales company, etc.). 
-The Band (i.e. the corporate entity) gets paid their guarantee (which is a MUCH smaller amount than you might think) and then has to pay a bunch of other people:  their management staff, their crew, the lighting and production company, whoever is moving all the stuff, hospitality (hotels, food, and transportation for everyone), their own security (if applicable), etc.  Their are a LOT of people who need to get paid.
-Whatever money is left is held by the Band (the entity again), and the band members usually get a fixed, predetermined salary at regular intervals, and then probably pay out "bonuses" at the end of the tax year so the entity doesn't get taxed on money it is holding, and the band members themselves have to pay for their own health insurance and all that stuff that normal people get from their jobs. 

There are variations, and there are lots of other steps and details that are left out, but that is pretty close to how it typically works.
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Offline goo-goo

  • Posts: 1549
Re: DT's Billboard Boxscore Results
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2016, 02:23:40 PM »
Generally, it depends on the venue.  The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.

I thought DT's fees was guaranteed, like 30k per show, and not depending on the venue...I can see the rent of the venue how it would vary from place to place, but not DT's fee.

Where are you getting that info?  The way it usually works is that the band does negotiate for a "guarantee," which means they get paid their full fee regardless of how many tickets actually sell.  But that does not mean the guarantees are the same at every venue they play in.  They may have, for example, $30k to play at the Fox Theater in Oakland, and $27k to play in Minneapolis, and $33k to play in NYC.  (numbers are completely made up for purposes of illustration only)

My number was also for illustration purposes only as well. Should have mentioned that...but what you describe makes sense. I guess the band entity accepts or rejects the promoters' offers first (for the guarantee) and then everything else is negotiated afterwards.
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