Poll

Their most recent album to date: Which of these songs wins YOUR vote?

Along for the Ride
Behind the Veil
The Bigger Picture
The Enemy Inside
Enigma Machine
False Awakening Suite
Illumination Theory
The Looking Glass
Surrender to Reason

Author Topic: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-  (Read 7128 times)

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Offline chaossystem

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The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« on: November 24, 2014, 02:44:40 PM »
Again, I think I know which track wins here.

But this time I would probably predict that my first choice will come in second, or at least third.

Happy voting!
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 02:48:35 PM »
Illumination Theory, easy.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 03:20:01 PM »
Behind The Veil by Lightyears.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 04:05:10 PM »
Illumination Theory, easy.

This. There are some great songs on here, though (like the run of TBP/BTV/STR), but IT takes the cake.

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Offline krands85

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 04:45:54 PM »
Illumination Theory, easy.
Yep. Head and shoulders above the rest for me.
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Online wolfking

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 05:00:18 PM »
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 05:04:31 PM »
Illumination Theory, first time I actually voted for the epic. I do also have a soft spot for Along for the Ride and The Bigger Picture. The  whole album is nicely consistent though so makes sense to pick IT as it stands out a bit more above the rest.

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 06:14:58 PM »
Illumination Theory. Such a fantastic epic. The best DT song in years. Behind the Veil is also a great contender. Strong album overall.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 06:19:07 PM »
I went for IT as well, but only because it offers 20 minutes of music. Pound for pound, this whole album is filled with awesomeness.
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 06:23:28 PM »
I went with Surrender to Reason. IMO, Illumination Theory is the worst of the five DT epics and is extremely overrated. Surrender to Reason on the other hand is an amazing song that's only real flaw is that it isn't long enough. This album isn't one of my favorites but STR is a standout track on an otherwise bland album.
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Offline Nearmyth

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 07:49:21 PM »
Illumination Theory, closely followed by Surrender To Reason. STR is insanely good songwriting but IT does more for me musically. The Bigger Picture would probably come 3rd.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 08:02:07 PM »
I actually went with FAS. It's the only song that I still think about and love, and it wins by process of elimination.
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.
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Offline CharlesPL

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 08:07:18 PM »
Illumination Theory

Offline Randaran

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 08:22:44 PM »
Behind The Veil by Lightyears.

This. BtV was a top 5 DT song when I compiled my list a few months back.
Only a prog fan would try to measure how much they enjoy a song by an equation. :lol
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 08:29:34 PM »
I actually went with FAS. It's the only song that I still think about and love, and it wins by process of elimination.
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.

That's exactly my issue with IT. It feels like they forced themselves to write an epic to make up for the shorter songs. Certain parts sound like they were just added to make the song longer and the song doesn't flow well. Not helping is that it will forever be compared to ACoS, SDoIT, and 8VM (it matches up a little more closely with ItPoE). Compared to the rest of the epics and even TCoT, it falls flat. It's still a good song, but I don't feel the sense of satisfsction I get from listening to the other epics and TCoT. IT just couldn't live up to it's potential.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2014, 08:37:55 PM »
I actually went with FAS. It's the only song that I still think about and love, and it wins by process of elimination.
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.

That's exactly my issue with IT. It feels like they forced themselves to write an epic to make up for the shorter songs. Certain parts sound like they were just added to make the song longer and the song doesn't flow well. Not helping is that it will forever be compared to ACoS, SDoIT, and 8VM (it matches up a little more closely with ItPoE). Compared to the rest of the epics and even TCoT, it falls flat. It's still a good song, but I don't feel the sense of satisfsction I get from listening to the other epics and TCoT. IT just couldn't live up to it's potential.

Eh. I'm sure they wrote an epic because they wanted to write another epic. Assuming that they had some kind of ulterior motive for it is really just asinine. They seemed plenty confident in this album on release, so I don't see why they thought that the shorter songs were so weak they figured that an epic would make up for that.

Even as great as IT is, I don't really think it "makes up" for the shorter songs, because the other tracks are really fine enough on their own. There's a few in there that I'd consider a future DT classic (namely BTV and TBP).

Regarding IT itself, I never and probably will never subscribe to the idea that its not flowing well is a detriment to its overall quality. ACOS has plenty of abrupt transitions yet never gets flogged for that. Hell, the same could be said for SDOIT. I agree, it's matched up against epics like ACOS and 8V, so naturally it'd have a lot to live up to, but I think it easily beats SDOIT at the very least, which isn't nearly as consistent overall. It's the most gratifying song I've heard DT put out in a long time.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2014, 08:50:17 PM »
Eh. I'm sure they wrote an epic because they wanted to write another epic. Assuming that they had some kind of ulterior motive for it is really just asinine. They seemed plenty confident in this album on release, so I don't see why they thought that the shorter songs were so weak they figured that an epic would make up for that.

Even as great as IT is, I don't really think it "makes up" for the shorter songs, because the other tracks are really fine enough on their own. There's a few in there that I'd consider a future DT classic (namely BTV and TBP).

Regarding IT itself, I never and probably will never subscribe to the idea that its not flowing well is a detriment to its overall quality. ACOS has plenty of abrupt transitions yet never gets flogged for that. Hell, the same could be said for SDOIT. I agree, it's matched up against epics like ACOS and 8V, so naturally it'd have a lot to live up to, but I think it easily beats SDOIT at the very least, which isn't nearly as consistent overall. It's the most gratifying song I've heard DT put out in a long time.

I actually rank ACOS very low exactly because it feels like a lot of unrelated sections tacked together with abrupt transitions. It doesn't feel like a unified whole to me.
SDOIT has a few sudden transitions, but overall it's still miles better than IT imo (and ACOS), because the whole thing feels purposeful and musical, and not flashy and prog for the sake of it, which is how I feel about IT. I think of it as DT's melodic epic.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 08:57:43 PM by BlobVanDam »
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Offline YtseJamittaja

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 12:03:51 AM »
I would say The Enemy Inside. It's the best aged song for me.
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Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 12:16:01 AM »
Looking Glass

Offline Zydar

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 12:30:58 AM »
Illumination Theory. The BTFW video sealed the deal. Surrender To Reason is a close 2nd.
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Offline nikatapi

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 12:55:56 AM »
The Looking Glass. It's a Rush tribute for sure, but i like the vibe, the solo section with the drums and bass, and Mangini's drumming is mindblowing and i believe the best representation of his playing. I really like this song.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 01:02:14 AM »
Illumination Theory. The BTFW video sealed the deal. Surrender To Reason is a close 2nd.

Yep, the BtFW version of IT is one of the best live performances I have heard of any song on record. Normally, I would go out of my way to explain to others that IT is not disjointed and actually is very purposeful and has a very cohesive narrrative, but since the same persons keep on slamming the song, there's no point. Their mind is made up. It's like trying to explain a poem to a student but the student refuses to acknowledge that there is an interpretation to the poem that makes sense. :p

Offline efx

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 01:25:19 AM »
The Looking Glass for me although Illumination Theory is a close second and I think it's their best "epic" since ACOS.

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 01:46:22 AM »
TBP and BTV were my initial favorites, but TLG has climbed up and is my favorite now. If only the rest of the album was as good as these three and AFTR...

Offline Randaran

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 04:42:52 AM »
I actually rank ACOS very low exactly because it feels like a lot of unrelated sections tacked together with abrupt transitions. It doesn't feel like a unified whole to me.

SDOIT has a few sudden transitions, but overall it's still miles better than IT imo (and ACOS), because the whole thing feels purposeful and musical, and not flashy and prog for the sake of it, which is how I feel about IT. I think of it as DT's melodic epic.

Really? The only jarring transition in ACOS is Seize the Day->The Darkest of Winters, and that one makes sense when considering the subject matter of that part.

I would rank many sections of Six Degrees fairly high, though the piece as a whole is rather low. Though I do agree that it flows fairly well.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2014, 06:04:12 AM »
Illumination Theory for sure.

Offline Destiny Of Chaos

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2014, 08:14:07 PM »

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2014, 12:49:04 PM »
Illumination Theory. The BTFW video sealed the deal. Surrender To Reason is a close 2nd.

Yep, the BtFW version of IT is one of the best live performances I have heard of any song on record. Normally, I would go out of my way to explain to others that IT is not disjointed and actually is very purposeful and has a very cohesive narrrative, but since the same persons keep on slamming the song, there's no point. Their mind is made up. It's like trying to explain a poem to a student but the student refuses to acknowledge that there is an interpretation to the poem that makes sense. :p

You pretty much already have gone out of your way.  No one is arguing whether the narrative is cohesive or not, or that it doesn't have a purpose.  I's a very nice story and I'm sure that's why a lot of people like it.  Personally, I couldn't give two shits about poetry.  As I've said many times before, I'm a fan of music.  The message in the lyrics is an extremely distant 2nd because words can be interpreted too many different ways.

Music is more universal.  You either like it or you don't.  When I say IT is disjointed, I'm talking about the music and the way it's arranged and executed.  No matter how purposeful or cohesive the message is, I still won't like the song.  If your interpretation of the song makes sense, then fine.  That doesn't mean someone else's interpretation doesn't make sense.  Seems to me that your mind is made up that differing opinions are inferior to yours.  Hence your comment about trying to explain something to a student.

Just because someone has a different opinion, doesn't mean they can't understand yours.  ;)
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2014, 01:18:55 PM »
I just don't understand how anyone can call IT disjointed, but not Metropolis or ACOS. I mean, maybe IT does have somewhat of a disjointed structure but so do the other songs and if anything, I'd say that only serves to their favor. It's what makes these kinds of songs adventurous and interesting. It's as true for Metropolis and ACOS as it is for IT, or TMOLS, or UAGM, or A Nightmare to Remember, or TCOT, or The Killing Hand.
Heck, if people can listen to SDOIT and consider the entire thing "one song", then I don't see the problem with IT.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2014, 01:27:41 PM »
I just don't understand how anyone can call IT disjointed, but not Metropolis or ACOS. . . . Heck, if people can listen to SDOIT and consider the entire thing "one song", then I don't see the problem with IT.

Because IT grinds to a complete stop and completely changes musical genres/styles TWICE.  Not that that is a "bad" thing.  But it makes for a structure that many would definitely consider disjointed--even those like myself who are long-time fans of the band and are used to the types of "turn-on-a-dime" transitions in songs like Metropolis or ACOS.  What they did in IT is something new and different.  And whether people like it or not, it definitely qualifies as "disjointed" for a lot of people.

And I have no idea how SDOIT even fits this discussion.  Despite the musical differences between the separate movements, the transitions between the different movements are actually logical and flow pretty well.
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Offline TAC

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2014, 01:47:42 PM »
Because IT grinds to a complete stop and completely changes musical genres/styles TWICE.   

Plus both TCOT and ITPOE do the same thing. It's a redundant move. To me, the orchestral section is so out of place and completely ruins the song.

Now some people have had the same issue with TCOT, which I have always understood, though for me, it seems to work well.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2014, 01:56:36 PM »
You know, if I actually felt like it was too disjointed, what I would do is take the track, chop it up into what I would consider cohesive pieces, and listen to them as separate songs. With IT it would be so incredibly easy to separate the orchestral section from the first half, or the second half, or heck, get rid of it all together if desired, that I don't see why it's so hard to enjoy those other parts for all their amazing moments just because you don't like one part of the song.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2014, 02:09:52 PM »
I don't think anyone said they couldn't enjoy those other parts, so I am not sure what you are addressing.

I know for me, for example, I like all the separate parts.  But the song still feels too disjointed, and I don't feel it works well.  I get why each part is there, and how it functions as part of the whole, and I think it was a pretty ingenious bit of songwriting...but it still doesn't completely work for me.  I don't dislike it.  But that disjointedness takes it down a notch to where it is probably a middle-of-the-pack song for me instead of one of my favorites, despite having some of my favorite moments on the entire album.  But music effects us all differently.  Nothing wrong with that.  I think the song is, by definition, "disjointed."  But that doesn't necessarily make it "bad."
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Offline adamack

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2014, 02:14:12 PM »
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.

This, exactly. The orchestral section is still powerful enough to move me to tears, but this song has not stood up well for me.

How I wish that the orchestral section was used in an epic more along the lines of an Octavarium. Something that feels more like a journey than IT. Songs like Octavarium just have an overall charm and feel that I do not get from IT at all, and the orchestral section would work so well in a song with such charm.

As for my favorite song on DT12, I have to go with Surrender To Reason. It used to be BTV, but STR has held up better for me. Not far behind after those would be TEI and TBP.

AFTR is a solid song, and would land right in the middle of my favorites on this album.

The rest of the album is far below-average for DT, in my opinion.

EM and FAS are my 2 least favorite DT instrumentals, and are probably in my top 20 least favorite DT songs. TLG would also be a top 20 least favorite DT song.

Overall, I like this album far less now than I did when it came out. As a general album, it is really good. But as a DT album, it's average to me.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2014, 03:09:39 PM »
I don't think anyone said they couldn't enjoy those other parts, so I am not sure what you are addressing.

I don't even know.

Either way, to me, the parts and how good they are is far more important than how well they transition from one to the other. I mean, I can listen to IT as two separate pieces of music, and enjoy them immensely. It just so happens that they're stuck together, so when I do enjoy them, I enjoy them consecutively. But heck, that's also what I do with The Mirror and Lie, and O1928+Strange Deja-Vu, and a few others. It's the moments that are important to me, and there isn't a bad one in IT.

Whereas taking something like ACOS, no matter how well the parts fit together (which isn't even THAT well), if some parts of it aren't that great, then that's what's going to bring it down for me, not the transitions.
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