What is it about Labrie's voice that some people complain about?

[King Postwhore]

Agree with Skeever 100% on Plant.

[TheGreatPretender]

Funny. I don't agree with that at all. James may have better range than Plant, but they're not even in the same league in my opinion. Plant is a legend. Only on Awake does James sing with any "edge" at all. Plant's voice always had a passionate bluesy edge, at least during Plant's prime. Not only does plant hit all the notes with a great rock timbre, but does other things like ad lib, which James has never really done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3ABDzdLls

I guess we just define edge differently. I'd say that whatever best qualities that Plant had back in those days, are the things that JLB has always had plenty of. The whole ad-libbing, and that Axl Rose type Rock'n'Roll bombast I never really liked in general.
But I mean, if that's what defines a good Rock'n'Roll singer, then yeah, I understand what you're saying. I guess Freddie Mercury did that too. But this is going back to that whole conversation of differentiating vocalists from front men, and singing from stage presence. Ad-Libbing is a very Front Man thing to do, it's screaming out to the crowd to get the excitement level up.
I mean, it's the same as saying that John Petrucci is not one of guitar greats because he doesn't windmill, or spin his hair when he plays. DT was always more about precision, than about show boating.

Same with Dickinson. Dickinson may not have had the range of pre-accident James, but Dickinson brought energy and punk rock edge to Iron Maiden. Sometimes he didn't hit all the notes even on the records, but the way he screamed and ad-libbed and improvised is something that James has never really dabbled in.

Sure, if you like that sort of thing.

[Skeever]

BTW, I'm not trying to say that James isn't great, or good. He's just different. He's the guy you want if you want to hear someone go into the studio, layer his voice beautifully, sing with all these different sounding voices and phrasings, and really be creative and technical as a singer. The thing is, that only really can be done with a genre like progressive metal, and isn't as appealing to the rock world in general. From what I remember, James attributes wanting to join DT to exactly that: the freedom being in the band would give him to really branch out with his voice, not just be another dime-a-dozen wailer.

Again, not saying he isn't great. He just doesn't belong in the same Pantheon as Plant and Dickinson. He belongs in a different pantheon. A more exclusive one, that doesn't appeal to everyone. Should make sense. We're talking about DT.

[commanderbob]

My wife is the finest singer I have ever heard in person, and one of the best I've ever heard.  She would be in to DT, but hate's JLB's voice.  I think it goes perfectly with the instrumentation myself, so it's kind of a bummer we can't enjoy it together.  Interestingly enough, she has found the last 2 albums at least passable, and actually loves Breaking All Illusions.

[TheGreatPretender]

Again, not saying he isn't great. He just doesn't belong in the same Pantheon as Plant and Dickinson. He belongs in a different pantheon. A more exclusive one, that doesn't appeal to everyone. Should make sense. We're talking about DT.

Sure, but when it comes to actual singing, whatever pantheon Plant and Dickinson are in, I don't think it's anything that great. When it comes to just hearing what they're singing, on an album. Not that what they do is bad, but like I said, the ad-libbing, screaming out parts instead of singing them properly, I don't think it's a huge detriment, but I can't fathom saying, "I think Bruce Dickinson is better because he screams out some parts instead of singing the proper note." That's not WHY people like him. It's what he brings to the show, the stage presence, the energy, the intensity, that's what's really great about him.

But even with guys like Brian Johnson for example, honestly, I can't stand listening to him. I don't like his singing voice at all. That being said, there is a great amount of technique and craftsmanship that goes into what he does, and I fully recognize and understand that. It may not be my cup of tea, but I can at least appreciate and respect it. And that's something that JLB is lacking from a lot of people. I'm not saying they have to like him, I just wish they understood just how much technique and craftsmanship goes into his singing, and just how skillfull of a singer he actually is.

[Skeever]

Okay, but just because you devalue the things guys like Plant were known for, doesn't mean that those things don't count.

[TheGreatPretender]

Okay, but just because you devalue the things guys like Plant were known for, doesn't mean that those things don't count.

Well, the same thing goes for LaBrie. Except most people will sing high praises about Plant, whereas LaBrie is just plain underrated.

[Skeever]

I don't think you're getting it. People are saying how LaBrie doesn't match up to Plant, and you're responding "of course he does!", and then as people go into WHY James doesn't match up to Plant, you are saying "well, those things don't matter because I don't like them". That is what I'm perceiving anyway. Of course LaBrie is going to be "underrated", because what he does isn't something that has mass appeal. I have been a DT fan for over a decade and fans have ALWAYS understood the band overall just do not have the type of appeal that is going to make them a breakaway commercial success. Why bother with apologetics? The band are who they are. They appeal to the audience they appeal to. No need to get upset because you feel other people don't rate the band or the singer as highly as you think they should. Just acknowledge you like something that has more limited, exclusive appeal, sit back and enjoy.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't think you're getting it. People are saying how LaBrie doesn't match up to Plant, and you're responding "of course he does!", and then as people go into WHY James doesn't match up to Plant, you are saying "well, those things don't matter because I don't like them". That is what I'm perceiving anyway.

But, LaBrie has plenty of qualities that Plant couldn't ever match either. Listen to Live at the Marquee, and I'm sorry, but LaBrie's performance on it absolutely destroys anything Plant has ever done. Both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, but nothing about one or the other makes them definitively a better artist. Everything is a matter of taste. I mean, someone could easily say that Kurt Cobain or Alice Cooper is better than either of them because they could list a thousand qualities that they prefer that Neither LaBrie nor Plant have.

No, the reason this whole argument came up is because you said you think Plant has more 'edginess' than LaBrie, and I think we're talking about completely different things. When I say LaBrie has much more edginess and grit to his style than Plant did, I was talking about something completely different than ad-libbing, or rock'n'roll appeal that you mentioned.

[Skeever]

I'm not talking about "definitively better", I'm talking about mass appeal.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not talking about "definitively better", I'm talking about mass appeal.

Well, I don't hold mass appeal at much value.

[Skeever]

I don't know how to respond to that, TGP. The thread is all about mass appeal.  I have been a DT fan for a good bit of time, and let me tell you,as a DT fan, you should know that DT and JLB have limited appeal, and always have, but that's kind of what makes us special as a fandom - the way we as a group recognized the value of this band. If you're really going to get that bent out of shape when the typical music listener posts why they don't like JLB or DT, you are going to find yourself being a very defensive DT fan.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not getting bent out of shape at all. I just don't understand why mass appeal is a factor in a discussion about how good of a singer JLB is. Yes, this thread is about various reasons why people don't like JLB. And yes, I'm not an idiot, I know he doesn't have the mass appeal of, say, Robert Plant or someone like that. But that's my whole point: he deserves better.

[npiazza91]

I tend to like the more "unique" vocalists that not many people I know seems to like.  Smashing Pumpkins, Rush, Megadeth.  On the other hand, I hate the vocals in bands like Avenged Sevenfold and such.  I think Five Finger Death Punch is the only modern mainstream metal band that I actually find the vocals to be pretty much perfect with the songs.  I just wish they were slightly more thrash, a little less mainstream metal.

[Rodni Demental]

People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.

The majority of DT fans have bad taste in music then.

lol probably. 

Anyway. I find this discussion intriguing. I don't have too much to say I have many opinions on some of these vocalists. 

At the start of my DT experience I never had a problem with James' mid range, it was the high stuff that I struggled with. The kinda stuff he doesn't do very often anymore. So it was I&W, Awake, some of FII and he was sometimes going for those really high moments in SFAM and SDOIT which I was not a fan of. But luckily the rest of the band kept me intrigued and eventually I grew to appreciate James voice after seeing some live stuff and becoming familiar with their discography. Funnily enough, I now find those sections where he goes for it really impressive and a highlight vocal moment. It's bizarre, because I can hardly pinpoint why I didn't like it before other than it being unfamiliar perhaps compared to the vocals I was used to.

I also struggled with Bruce Dickinson, hated the "wailing". Now I think he's a vocal powerhouse and a very impressive singer.

I love Geddy Lee and always have, but I think when I got into Rush, I knew what I was getting myself into so Geddy didn't throw me off too much.  I actually prefer his modern voice though, he's not screeching at the top of his lungs as often. Clearly channeling some Robert Plant styles but I mean, their s/t and Fly by Night (and even a few after that) just aren't as accessible as the 90s/00s stuff if you asked me. And that's probably the opposite of what a hardcore Rush fan would say. But I only got into them around Clockwork Angels (which I also think is one of the best albums).

I like voices having an 'edge' to them too. And I think JLB has plenty of this, more so than he's given credit for in here I believe. I point to the first verse of Behind the Veil as a great example of this which reflects the more modern version of this style, as opposed or related to the gritty Awake style harshness that's well known and easily recognised.

I'd also argue his low range can even be not too bad, but he doesn't use it very often. See A Rite of Passage verse 1.

For what it's worth in judging different vocal styles, I really DON'T like old school Axel Rose. At least when he's 'whining' like he always did back in the day. (See Welcome to the Jungle, Paradise City, Knockin' on Heavens door). And yet, Chinese Democracy he's using a low range voice that I'd never heard before! And a more aggressive harsher style to his mid and high range. Vastly improved his vocal technique. Too bad that album was a bit of a commercial mess but I enjoyed some of it.

I tell you a singer I can never accept though, and that's the ACDC singer, couldn't even tell you his name because I don't know and just don't care and never will.  Harsh reality, I can respect what he's going for and appreciate it's place in Rock n Roll, but personally, I can't stand it. And I'm only complaining about the vocalist here, don't get me started on the guitarist and drummer. 

Ozzy. This guy is all over the place, but I've never had a problem with his style for some reason. It's certainly unique and memorable, there's something there that appeals with his tone. I don't think anyone tries to claim that he's an expert or the best singer or anything though. Maybe that's why he's so accepted, because his vocals aren't put on a pedestal. It's more about the music and the songs in general.

M Shadows. Well... I actually really like harsh vocals that are also melodic. And this guy has a powerful voice for sure. But he gets a bit whiny sometimes. Come to think of it, even the guitars in this band are whining, and those backup vocalists my god they can whine. A bunch of whiners, but that's probably starting to get beside the point. Nah they're alright though, they've had a few pretty cool songs. Wasn't too much of a fan of the new album though. Nightmare was definitely better.

Russell Allen is probably a perfect example of the type of harsh/melodic vocalist that I appreciate the style of. But we're talking Symphony X here, not that other unspeakable project.

[Stadler]

But, LaBrie has plenty of qualities that Plant couldn't ever match either. Listen to Live at the Marquee, and I'm sorry, but LaBrie's performance on it absolutely destroys anything Plant has ever done. Both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, but nothing about one or the other makes them definitively a better artist. Everything is a matter of taste. I mean, someone could easily say that Kurt Cobain or Alice Cooper is better than either of them because they could list a thousand qualities that they prefer that Neither LaBrie nor Plant have.

No, the reason this whole argument came up is because you said you think Plant has more 'edginess' than LaBrie, and I think we're talking about completely different things. When I say LaBrie has much more edginess and grit to his style than Plant did, I was talking about something completely different than ad-libbing, or rock'n'roll appeal that you mentioned.

Well, I agree with your support of LaBrie, but with deep, and sincere, respect, there are better arguments.  You can't really say "I've never heard Plant live" then say "LaBrie's performance destroys anything Plant has ever done".   Look, I like DT more than Zeppelin, and I always thought Plant was the weak link in Zeppelin (still do to an extent) and Plant is not in my top ten singers of all time, but there is no denying that there was a reason Zeppelin was (and in some quarters still is) one of the biggest bands in the history of rock and roll.  Watch the DVD of the Danish show.  Listen to "How The West Was Won".  Hell, even on the much-maligned Song Remains the Same, "No Quarter" is jaw-dropping. 

I think we're really comparing apples and oranges, and disparaging the orange to do it.   I'm a LaBrie fan boy (as a singer; I don't care for him as a person) and he is the reason I am a DT fan to this day.  I think his versatility is unmatched (I think I might have already said in this thread, what other singer as credibly covered a list of singers including Gillan, Osbourne, Dio, Mercury, John, Plant, Gilmour, Waters, Dickinson, Hetfield, Bono, Walsh, Perry... I'm sure there's more, but at least three of those guys ARE on my top 10 list).  But in the grand scheme of things, he has gaps.   Comparing Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, Ruth wins hands down, but that doesn't make Jeter a bad player, you know? 

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I agree with your support of LaBrie, but with deep, and sincere, respect, there are better arguments.  You can't really say "I've never heard Plant live" then say "LaBrie's performance destroys anything Plant has ever done". 

Okay, that's fair. What I meant was, the vocals on DT's albums, especially I&W and Awake, destroy the vocals on any Led Zeppelin album. In my opinion, of course.

I think we're really comparing apples and oranges, and disparaging the orange to do it.   I'm a LaBrie fan boy (as a singer; I don't care for him as a person) and he is the reason I am a DT fan to this day.  I think his versatility is unmatched (I think I might have already said in this thread, what other singer as credibly covered a list of singers including Gillan, Osbourne, Dio, Mercury, John, Plant, Gilmour, Waters, Dickinson, Hetfield, Bono, Walsh, Perry... I'm sure there's more, but at least three of those guys ARE on my top 10 list).  But in the grand scheme of things, he has gaps.   Comparing Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, Ruth wins hands down, but that doesn't make Jeter a bad player, you know? 

You're right, and I'm sorry I had to resort to disparaging the "oragnes." All I'm trying to get across is I think LaBrie deserves the same kind of credit and respect as all those other highly acclaimed and respected vocalists. He has gaps, of course, but who doesn't? People can revere Dickinson or Ronnie James Dio as rock gods, and that's fine, I agree, but they're not perfect. They can't do everything. And they don't have to, but that doesn't stop people from revering them. But then it's like, "Well, JLB doesn't belong among them because he has flaws." But then those guys have flaws but look at what they can do right but look at what JLB does right but he has flaws but those guys do too and it's just a neverending cycle, and that's what gets kind of frustrating.
Again, I hate to discredit Plant, because I do recognize him for all he was capable of. But that "was" is another factor too.
Here's what it comes down to for me, back in JLB's hay day, the quality and power with which he could hit that F#... I have never heard anyone do it, and make it seem as effortless as JLB did. Not only that, but how many vocalists out there have had to suffer a throat injury, still come back and do 3 hour long shows, (and yes, I know JLB was in a fairly bad shape for a while, but on his good days, he still had that range), and then recover to the point of being able to hit those F#s again in their 50s? Most vocalists never have to suffer any kind of a serious throat injury, luckily for them, and they still end up losing their range by the time they're in their 40s. This doesn't discredit Plant in any way, nor does it diminish his legacy at all. But we can't take for granted how much JLB has accomplished, how far he's come and the kind of hell he persevered through in the long run, and how much he still rocks to this day. That's huge. He's not just "good for someone who recovered from an injury", or "good for someone his age", his vocals have always been impressive, no matter who you compare him to. I just think he deserves that recognition, and he really doesn't receive it outside of hardcore DT fans.

Sorry for another dissertation, lol.

[7enderbender]

Love what he does in general. He clearly had performances that are mostly stellar (most everything on Score, definitely on his solo albums!) but he can be a bit off at times. Sometimes it's maybe the choice of notes and rhythm patterns, often some odd pronunciation thing (and I doubt it's a Canadian thing). The contrast between his work in DT (at times) and his solo work might be an indicator that it has to do with the writing process in which he still seems to be not much involved.

What makes me cringe at times are the announcements and little things between songs. Ouch. Include some body language and he seems somewhat insecure. Which, again, may not be his fault but the role that he's been handled.

To clarify: I wouldn't want to see anyone else be the DT voice at this point. I only wish he would always come across as relaxed as on his last two solo records. Excellent stuff there.

[Zook]

LaBrie's voice was so far from what I was used to, so it took a while to warm up to, but the only issue I have nowadays is his live shrill voice. It can be cringe worthy at times. In studio he sounds awesome.

[TheGreatPretender]

LaBrie's voice was so far from what I was used to, so it took a while to warm up to, but the only issue I have nowadays is his live shrill voice. It can be cringe worthy at times. In studio he sounds awesome.

What are you referring to, specifically?

[Zook]

LaBrie's voice was so far from what I was used to, so it took a while to warm up to, but the only issue I have nowadays is his live shrill voice. It can be cringe worthy at times. In studio he sounds awesome.

What are you referring to, specifically?

Maybe I didn't use the correct term, but he's very nasally live, and when he goes for high notes, it does not sound pleasant to my ears. Other times he sounds great though, so it isn't a constant thing, fortunately.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm still not quite sure what you're referring to. I guess I don't have that problem. When you said Shrill, first thing that came to mind was the way he screamed "Time" in "Waiting for time to dissappear" in the Happy Holidays release of UAGM. And yeah, I didn't like that very much. Especially when he did it every single TIIIIIIME!

[Zook]

I'm still not quite sure what you're referring to. I guess I don't have that problem. When you said Shrill, first thing that came to mind was the way he screamed "Time" in "Waiting for time to dissappear" in the Happy Holidays release of UAGM. And yeah, I didn't like that very much. Especially when he did it every single TIIIIIIME!

That's a very good example. Stuff like that, yeah. But then he also enunciates words in a purposely goofy manner, and that isn't appealing either.

[Skeever]

For a great example of shrillness, check out Live at Budokan or Chaos in Motion.

[rumborak]

They definitely trimmed a lot of unappealing banter out of BTFW. When you listen to the bootleg, it's that "effeminate" intonation he uses that makes it rather unpleasant to listen to.

[TheGreatPretender]

For a great example of shrillness, check out Live at Budokan or Chaos in Motion.

See, again you say this word, and it means something completely different to me though. We really need to stop using words like "Shrill" and "Edgy" because they aren't very clearly defined when it comes to music.

[Skeever]

Shrill, i.e., high pitched, loud, and thin. Pop in Budokan "In the Name of God", wait for the chorus. You'll see what I'm talking about. Also a lot of nasal tones there.

Edit: I just did the above, and all I can say is wow. I always thought Live at Budokan's vocals were very shrill and hard to listen to due to James' poor timbre. But the vocal performance actually sounds very good compared to the last three DVDs.

[TheGreatPretender]

Shrill, i.e., high pitched, loud, and thin. Pop in Budokan "In the Name of God", wait for the chorus. You'll see what I'm talking about. Also a lot of nasal tones there.

Edit: I just did the above, and all I can say is wow. I always thought Live at Budokan's vocals were very shrill and hard to listen to due to James' poor timbre. But the vocal performance actually sounds very good compared to the last three DVDs.

I understand what shrill means, it's just for me, it would take a hell of a lot more than that to consider someone's voice shrill. Old school Geddy Lee, maybe, but even that's not unpleasant.

[erwinrafael]

I like JLB's voice especially when he does the Awake style, not the I&W one. That said, my personal favorite rock/metal vocals, for some reason, is peak form Chris Cornell, Sunshower days.

[hefdaddy42]

But then he also enunciates words in a purposely goofy manner, and that isn't appealing either.

It's not purposely goofy.  He's just Canadian.

[Sycsa]

They definitely trimmed a lot of unappealing banter out of BTFW. When you listen to the bootleg, it's that "effeminate" intonation he uses that makes it rather unpleasant to listen to.

Where can I listen to BTFW bootlegs BTW. Can't find them on YouTube and I'm really curious how JLB pulled off IT for instance.

[Stadler]

Well, I agree with your support of LaBrie, but with deep, and sincere, respect, there are better arguments.  You can't really say "I've never heard Plant live" then say "LaBrie's performance destroys anything Plant has ever done". 

Okay, that's fair. What I meant was, the vocals on DT's albums, especially I&W and Awake, destroy the vocals on any Led Zeppelin album. In my opinion, of course.

I think we're really comparing apples and oranges, and disparaging the orange to do it.   I'm a LaBrie fan boy (as a singer; I don't care for him as a person) and he is the reason I am a DT fan to this day.  I think his versatility is unmatched (I think I might have already said in this thread, what other singer as credibly covered a list of singers including Gillan, Osbourne, Dio, Mercury, John, Plant, Gilmour, Waters, Dickinson, Hetfield, Bono, Walsh, Perry... I'm sure there's more, but at least three of those guys ARE on my top 10 list).  But in the grand scheme of things, he has gaps.   Comparing Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, Ruth wins hands down, but that doesn't make Jeter a bad player, you know? 

You're right, and I'm sorry I had to resort to disparaging the "oragnes." All I'm trying to get across is I think LaBrie deserves the same kind of credit and respect as all those other highly acclaimed and respected vocalists. He has gaps, of course, but who doesn't? People can revere Dickinson or Ronnie James Dio as rock gods, and that's fine, I agree, but they're not perfect. They can't do everything. And they don't have to, but that doesn't stop people from revering them. But then it's like, "Well, JLB doesn't belong among them because he has flaws." But then those guys have flaws but look at what they can do right but look at what JLB does right but he has flaws but those guys do too and it's just a neverending cycle, and that's what gets kind of frustrating.
Again, I hate to discredit Plant, because I do recognize him for all he was capable of. But that "was" is another factor too.
Here's what it comes down to for me, back in JLB's hay day, the quality and power with which he could hit that F#... I have never heard anyone do it, and make it seem as effortless as JLB did. Not only that, but how many vocalists out there have had to suffer a throat injury, still come back and do 3 hour long shows, (and yes, I know JLB was in a fairly bad shape for a while, but on his good days, he still had that range), and then recover to the point of being able to hit those F#s again in their 50s? Most vocalists never have to suffer any kind of a serious throat injury, luckily for them, and they still end up losing their range by the time they're in their 40s. This doesn't discredit Plant in any way, nor does it diminish his legacy at all. But we can't take for granted how much JLB has accomplished, how far he's come and the kind of hell he persevered through in the long run, and how much he still rocks to this day. That's huge. He's not just "good for someone who recovered from an injury", or "good for someone his age", his vocals have always been impressive, no matter who you compare him to. I just think he deserves that recognition, and he really doesn't receive it outside of hardcore DT fans.

Sorry for another dissertation, lol.

For what it's worth, I'm with you 1000% on all of that.    I've said before, when I heard "Pull Me Under" for the first time upon release (which is when I got into the band) I thought "Wow, listen to that double bass drum (though I didn't really like it at the time) and listen to that guy SING!"  And when I got the album, I thought, "Wow, listen to that guy SING!".    And I still think that way.

[Mister Gold]

Oh boy, this thread...

I'm not nearly as big of a fan of DT as most folks here are, and a large part of that comes down to LaBrie. He's clearly gifted, no arguments there, but I find his voice to be rather harsh on the ears at times and at other times, too weak for the material he's singing over. It's like one-third of his performances actually suit the band. It's not his fault, considering the food poisoning accident, because his performance on Awake is nothing short of incredible from start-to-finish.

But I do rank a ton of other singers over him because of it. Bruce Dickinson or Ronnie James Dio may not sing as high as JLB, but they don't need to. They sound full, rich and powerful with practically everything they do sing. I saw Iron Maiden live last year and I'm not exaggerating when I say that Bruce's performance that night was spine-tingling.

[TheGreatPretender]

But then he also enunciates words in a purposely goofy manner, and that isn't appealing either.

It's not purposely goofy.  He's just Canadian.

Hey now buddy! Come on guy! You clearly don't know what you're talkin' aboat.

[rumborak]

Aboot. They say aboot, not aboat.