What is it about Labrie's voice that some people complain about?

[npiazza91]

I have heard not only from these boards, but from showing DT to people I know, that some of them just can't stand Labrie's voice.   I asked a few people for reasons and they say it's when he draws out his singing notes, he sounds annoying.  Some examples are "Take Away My Paaaaaaiiiiiiiin!", "Voices reapeaaaaaaaaaaattttting meeeeeeee!", and pretty much the whole chorus of ITNOG.  People don't seem to like the way his voice sounds when he draws out his notes.  I personally think that's the best part of his voice to be honest.  He's an amazing singer.

From my experience, the people I show DT to, either love it or hate it.  In your experience, when you showed DT to people you know, what were the main complaints of the people that didn't like it?  Is it always his voice, or have you heard other complaints?  Also, so this thread doesn't feel so negative, feel free to share what they DID like about it.  Literally everyone I showed DT to admitted that they were talented, or "talented as f-" (quote from my friend), even the ones that didn't like it.

[rumborak]

He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly

[XB0BX]

People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.

[Ħ]

People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.

Literally everything you say is false.

[adamack]

He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly

The hair metal thing is true...it makes me so mad. Reason being: SO many people love Iron Maiden. I never hear anyone complain about Bruce's voice. People always praise them. Why, then, do people have to go and hate on James for sounding this way? His voice is no more consistently high-pitched than Bruce Dickinson. How did Iron Maiden end up being so well-received, if so many people don't like this kind of singing?

To the original poster: I, too, had countless friends say that they love DT's instrumentation, but can't get past James's voice.

I can actually understand where they are coming from if they're referring to their earlier works. I don't personally agree with them of course, but I see how it wouldn't be everyone's thing.

However, I think James's voice has gotten much more "tolerable" to a casual listener in their post-Awake years. The older stuff just had more of a hint of the hair-metal, operatic thing going on.

[rumborak]

I think Bruce Dickinson is exempt because they did this stuff a long time before hair metal existed. He's also not really high-pitched, just very "classical". Also, Dickinson never looked hair metal either, whereas James had this happen.

[Dublagent66]

His breathy, almost feminine sounding moments are what I dislike the most.  However, I still think he's a great singer.  I can understand why some people may not like his singing but saying that he can't sing couldn't be further from the truth.

An ex girlfriend of mine said once, "Who told this guy he could sing?"  I laughed and said, "No one told him anything because he already knows he can sing." 

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm still trying to get my buddy into DT. He's a bit of a metal head, so naturally, he loves the shredding and all that. The one time he actually commented on LaBrie, he said, "Man, I'm telling you, this vocalist. His voice is softer than Geddy Lee..."
Which it's really not, but with that alone, he didn't need to finish his thought, I got the gist that he didn't dig it. I'm not giving up though.

My whole issue with the whole Hair Metal comparison is that first of all, I've never considered Iron Maiden Hair Metal. They're not. I just wanted to get that out of the way before we move on.

Second, most of the Hair Metal bands out there, they didn't really take care of themselves too well. So it's funny, when you listen to guys like Don Dokken or Joey Tempest, they can't hit those high notes anymore, and for a lot of them, their whole timbre became much deeper due to drinking and smoking in their hay day, or just improper technique or whatnot. So as high vocals went out of fashion, it was almost like they unwittingly adapted. Not that Dokken or Europe are topping the charts or anything, hell, most people probably don't know that Europe has put out some really good songs in the past few years, they just want to hear The Final Countdown.
But anyway, the point is that not a lot of those Hair Metal guys actually retained their timbre or pitch (or relevance). And even Geddy Lee sounds a lot deeper now than he did back in his "Fly By Night" days. I guess people just aren't used to higher vocals when it comes to a more modern sound like DT's. Screw the haters though. Most of them really don't know what they're talking about. I mean, it's a matter of personal taste to say one doesn't like JLB's voice, but it's a different matter entirely to say "he can't sing", which is... Well, it's just plain untrue.

An ex girlfriend of mine said once, "Who told this guy he could sing?"  I laughed and said, "No one told him anything because he already knows he can sing." 

Is that why she's your EX-girlfriend? Although honestly, that's such a pompous thing to say, I have a feeling I'd be even more hostile.

"He doesn't need your permission to sing, bitch. Let's see you try and sing these songs!" 

[Mosh]

He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly

The hair metal thing is true...it makes me so mad. Reason being: SO many people love Iron Maiden. I never hear anyone complain about Bruce's voice. People always praise them. Why, then, do people have to go and hate on James for sounding this way? His voice is no more consistently high-pitched than Bruce Dickinson. How did Iron Maiden end up being so well-received, if so many people don't like this kind of singing?

Bruce Dickinson and JLB are nothing alike. The only comparison is that they have an operatic style. Everything else is completely different.

[Anguyen92]

The 1st song I ever heard of DT where JLB's singing actually fit well with the music was Solitary Shell.  That's pretty much my 1st impression of him as a singer.  And then I heard the Impermanent Resonance album and I thought, man, if he was not in DT, this is totally the music that fits well with his voice, and some people do not really like that style that IR was going for. 

I like the style of his voice though.  I don't know what they are complaining about.

[lucky7]

I love the voice JLB has now, he sounds perfect. I can't be the only one who thinks he is getting better each album?!

There have been times I thought he didn't sound too great, but he did overcome a lot from his food poisoning outbreak years ago. 

Sometimes his talking at concerts is a little corny, but we are there to hear him sing and the band perform. 

I remember hearing he was from a band that did a lot of Journey covers, and the Journey cover and the other covers on A Change Of Seasons sound great.

Personal opinion is just that, and DT have 25+ years of changes for people to like, love or hate, and JLB seems like an easy target to pick on.

[Enalya]

Haha, this is recognizable. I'm actually offended every time when someone doesn't like JLB's voice - I start defending him XD
It's most of the time the reason people don't like DT in my area as well, which disappoints me. Because you miss so much of their brilliant music only because of that.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

I think the high tenor and femininity things are not so problematic for mainstream listeners; nowadays the lion's share of pop singers are tenors who use their voice in a very effeminate way. So I think many people have grown used to that through exposure. However, most pop singers do use a pure falsetto when they sing very high (think Matthew Bellamy) while Labrie uses a more mixed voice which may sound unfamiliar to mainstream folks.

Labrie's inconsistency with regard to pitch is I think a more likely factor. While he has improved quite a bit, in the past there were regularly concerts which were just really not good, and even nowadays he's often ever so slightly off pitch. Less musically inclined people may not be able to tell this explicitly, but they can tell that there's something off.

What could also turn people off is the way he shapes his vowels. To maintain that mixed voice when he goes a bit higher he has to modify his vowels (quite extremely sometimes). Combine this with the fact that sometimes he has to strain to reach high notes and a wide vibrato I can see why people would dislike his sound. Especially non-musicians who don't recognise the difficulty of what he's doing may simply think he's an unskilled singer (which I don't agree with, for clarity).

[Skeever]

He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly

Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge

[npiazza91]

Well, one of my friends doesn't like Dickonson's voice either.  He LOVES Paschendale though.  It's one of his favorite songs.  So he can listen to Maiden, but not DT.  It's funny because I agree that Dicksonson's voice sounds funny when he tries to go really high in the newer albums.

As for Labrie, he literally gives me chills sometimes.  His performance in Hollow Years is amazing, same with the 'beautiful agony" section of ANTR, and pretty much anything on Awake.

[TheGreatPretender]

Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge

I think we discussed this in the other thread, lol, but again, it really depends on how you define rock'n'roll edge.. Metal edge, maybe. But I keep going back to comparing JLB to Robert Plant, and for all the praises that Plant gets, through his career, JLB has had more power and more grit, accompanying that amazing range. Way more "edge" than Robert Plant did in Zeppelin's glory days, and people hail Zeppelin as one of the best Rock'n'Roll bands ever.

[Stadler]

Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge

I think we discussed this in the other thread, lol, but again, it really depends on how you define rock'n'roll edge.. Metal edge, maybe. But I keep going back to comparing JLB to Robert Plant, and for all the praises that Plant gets, through his career, JLB has had more power and more grit, accompanying that amazing range. Way more "edge" than Robert Plant did in Zeppelin's glory days, and people hail Zeppelin as one of the best Rock'n'Roll bands ever.

Let's not get crazy; I TOTALLY get why Plant doesn't want to do a long-term Zep reunion.  He's like Toby Keith: "Not as good as I once was, but once, I'm as good as I ever was".   Some of the bootlegs from the 71-73 era, are just INCENDIARY.   And he has had moments since:  I saw Page/Plant in Nassau Coliseum, and during... I think it was Calling To You, they stretched it out a little and did the interpolation thing.   At one point it was very moody, and he was sort of mumbling "Break on Through" by the Doors, and the lights were low, and he did a little of the verse of "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield, then back to the chorus of BOT...  then the lights went bright white, Plant's at the front of the stage in that classic pose, and at the top of his lungs he screamed "STOP, HEY... What's that sound?" and it was ELECTRIC.   Power, tone, range, it was everything you would expect from the so-called ROCK GOD.

As for LaBrie, he is my favorite part of the DT sound and what separates DT from the pack for me (along with MP, of course).  The ONLY thing that really bothers me about LaBrie is live when he puts on the exaggerated Rock and Roll voice... you know, pronouncing Detroit as "DEE-troit".   Or the lame rock and roll expressions... you know, "we gonna rock and roll to-NIGH-EEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAATTTTT! YeaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"   Shut up.    I think the comparisons with Dickinson are not fair (BD is in my view the greatest metal frontman of all time) because the material is different, and their voices suit the material.   I'm not sure I want to hear Bruce singing "I know it's easier... to walk away, than look it in the eye".   Or "To Live Forever". 

[TheGreatPretender]

Let's not get crazy; I TOTALLY get why Plant doesn't want to do a long-term Zep reunion.  He's like Toby Keith: "Not as good as I once was, but once, I'm as good as I ever was".   Some of the bootlegs from the 71-73 era, are just INCENDIARY.   And he has had moments since:  I saw Page/Plant in Nassau Coliseum, and during... I think it was Calling To You, they stretched it out a little and did the interpolation thing.   At one point it was very moody, and he was sort of mumbling "Break on Through" by the Doors, and the lights were low, and he did a little of the verse of "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield, then back to the chorus of BOT...  then the lights went bright white, Plant's at the front of the stage in that classic pose, and at the top of his lungs he screamed "STOP, HEY... What's that sound?" and it was ELECTRIC.   Power, tone, range, it was everything you would expect from the so-called ROCK GOD.

Well, I wouldn't know from live shows, as I've never actually seen or heard Zeppelin live, but from their albums, honestly, aside from the actual range, and those high notes, I wouldn't call his singing anything too amazing. It's not like, say, Freddie Mercury, where all you have to do is hear him on an album and it's pretty easy to understand why people loved him. Interestingly enough, it were the Queen live shows that didn't really show off his voice too much. His stage presence, hell yeah, but his voice? Always better to listen to on a studio recording, IMO.

As for LaBrie, he is my favorite part of the DT sound and what separates DT from the pack for me (along with MP, of course).  The ONLY thing that really bothers me about LaBrie is live when he puts on the exaggerated Rock and Roll voice... you know, pronouncing Detroit as "DEE-troit".   Or the lame rock and roll expressions... you know, "we gonna rock and roll to-NIGH-EEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAATTTTT! YeaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"   Shut up.    I think the comparisons with Dickinson are not fair (BD is in my view the greatest metal frontman of all time) because the material is different, and their voices suit the material.   I'm not sure I want to hear Bruce singing "I know it's easier... to walk away, than look it in the eye".   Or "To Live Forever".

Well, Dream Theater's diversity is another issue. I mean, I've known people, non-rock fans, who immediately fell in love with songs like I Walk Beside You and Hollow Years. But you put on The Glass Prison for them, and it would do absolutely nothing for them.
So with DT's huge musical diversity, yes, if Bruce Dickinson was to sing DT songs, he'd sound great on some, and not so much on others. I mean, to counterpoint what you said, imagine Bruce Dickinson singing "Listen when the prophet speaks to you. Killing in the name of God." I think it would sound pretty amazing.
In that respect though, when you consider songs like ITNOG and Surrounded, JLB is one of the most versatile and well-rounded vocalists out there. Not a lot of people could do justice to every "color" of the Dream Theater spectrum.

[rumborak]

TGP, but now you're just defining the goalpost of "DT singing" to suit exactly to James' singing. It's not that JP and JR just write random shit and then say to James "here you go, sing it now", and only James with his vast glorious range is able to sing it. They write the melodies to suit his strengths (high-pitched), and stay away from his weaknesses (low-pitched). If Dickinson was their singer they would write melodies to suit his strengths.
DT's music by no means *demands* the singing style they employ with James.

[TheGreatPretender]

TGP, but now you're just defining the goalpost of "DT singing" to suit exactly to James' singing. It's not that JP and JR just write random shit and then say to James "here you go, sing it now", and only James with his vast glorious range is able to sing it. They write the melodies to suit his strengths (high-pitched), and stay away from his weaknesses (low-pitched). If Dickinson was their singer they would write melodies to suit his strengths.
DT's music by no means *demands* the singing style they employ with James.

Well, sure, but I mean, if you want to rewrite the vocal melodies for Surrounded or The Answer Lies Within to suit Bruce Dickinson, I guess it's possible, but they would be very, very different songs, evoking a different mood and different kind of energy. You can do that with anything. One could rewrite the vocal melodies for Master of Puppets to suit Backstreet Boys, but it would be a very different song then, even if the instrumental portion of it remained exactly the same.

[rumborak]

I would posit that in most cases, an equally as good song would come out if the melody was written to suit a different singer. Within bounds of course, but Dickinson clearly has the vocal diversity to make for very interesting vocal lines. And, he would get the edginess and low-end across better than James.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I don't know about everyone else comparing the two, but I never meant to say that JLB is the best at every style of singing he does. I think he's incredibly versatile, and one of the most versatile singers out there. Maybe as versatile as Dickinson, but in a different set of areas.
Anyway, what I'm saying is, yes, Dickinson has more edge to his voice, but does that mean that JLB doesn't have any at all? Or that he doesn't have enough for his genre? I wouldn't say so. I mean, unless the amount of 'edge' that Bruce Dickinson has is the absolute minimum requirement for some people. But by my tastes, I think JLB has more than enough grit and edge to his voice, even in the lower end, such as on songs like Lost Not Forgotten.

[rumborak]

Well, this thread is about how people complain about James. At this point in the discussion it's rather clear that James has clear weaknesses in areas, and if one thinks they are a requirement for the genre he sings in, you won't like his singing.
And yes, I think quite a few people would put Bruce's amount of grit as the minimum for the metal genre.

[TheGreatPretender]

Everyone has weakness in areas though. Again, let's go back to the subject of DT's versatility. DT is about more than just Metal. They have strong roots in the Prog Rock genre, and if you listen to bands like Rush, Kansas, Journey, etc, LaBrie's voice fits in quite well with those genres. Better than someone like Bruce Dickinson or especially someone even more aggressive would.
And if you take the full spectrum of DT's music, from their softest or Proggiest, to their most aggressive or most Metal, I would honestly say there's probably nobody on earth who exists or has ever existed, whose voice would fit in absolutely perfectly at both ends of the spectrum. Not LaBrie, not Dickinson, not Freddy Mercury, nobody. You'd need two sets of Vocal Cords for that (not including the false folds).

[hefdaddy42]

People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.

I don't think anyone here is shocked by that.

[adamack]

I think Bruce Dickinson is exempt because they did this stuff a long time before hair metal existed. He's also not really high-pitched, just very "classical". Also, Dickinson never looked hair metal either, whereas James had this happen.

My whole issue with the whole Hair Metal comparison is that first of all, I've never considered Iron Maiden Hair Metal. They're not. I just wanted to get that out of the way before we move on.

Yeah you guys are right, Maiden was definitely before the hair metal era.

I guess I just meant that, regardless of genre, I rarely hear people complain about Bruce's voice, but always hear people complain about James'.

I know this is only my opinion, but I find Bruce intolerable. I guess I'm no better than one of our friend's who can't get past James's voice, only with Maiden instead of DT.

I'm baffled as to how so many praise Maiden, but so many bash DT because of James.

Could the reason be that Maiden existed at a time when this kind of singing was the "norm"? If so, I suppose I could understand.

[adamack]

He's a very skilled singer, but there's lots to hate if it isn't your specific cup of tea. Random list:
- The high tenor singer is very 80s hair metal
- His vibrato is suuper-wide (too wide for my taste) and these days it sounds forced
- He has those "effeminate" vocal moments when he's trying to sing softly

The hair metal thing is true...it makes me so mad. Reason being: SO many people love Iron Maiden. I never hear anyone complain about Bruce's voice. People always praise them. Why, then, do people have to go and hate on James for sounding this way? His voice is no more consistently high-pitched than Bruce Dickinson. How did Iron Maiden end up being so well-received, if so many people don't like this kind of singing?

Bruce Dickinson and JLB are nothing alike. The only comparison is that they have an operatic style. Everything else is completely different.

This operatic style is the exact thing I was targeting when making the point.

People hate on James for having an operatic style. This is the reason my friends do not like DT.

But people praise Maiden all of the time, and they are one of the most popular metal bands of all time. Yet I do not hear people degrading Bruce for his operatic style.

It almost seems like people are looking for a reason to hate DT 

[Woodworker1]

I love Labrie's voice, I can't identify with this thread at all.  I just watched "Breaking the Fourth Wall", and James really shines.

[TheGreatPretender]

Could the reason be that Maiden existed at a time when this kind of singing was the "norm"? If so, I suppose I could understand.

Maybe they just came out in an era where people were a little more receptive, without so many pre-conceptions about what someone SHOULD sound like.
I mean hell, look at Ozzy. I can find him tolerable, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I call his voice pleasant, or call him a particularly good singer. But we're all used to him now because Black Sabbath was such a huge band, and still are one of the quintessential bands to familiarize with when getting into Heavy Metal.
What about AC/DC? I don't know at what point that became considered "good singing" but I still can't stand it.

[adamack]

Could the reason be that Maiden existed at a time when this kind of singing was the "norm"? If so, I suppose I could understand.

Maybe they just came out in an era where people were a little more receptive, without so many pre-conceptions about what someone SHOULD sound like.
I mean hell, look at Ozzy. I can find him tolerable, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I call his voice pleasant, or call him a particularly good singer. But we're all used to him now because Black Sabbath was such a huge band, and still are one of the quintessential bands to familiarize with when getting into Heavy Metal.
What about AC/DC? I don't know at what point that became considered "good singing" but I still can't stand it.

Very good point about Ozzy. Especially considering that I love Ozzy, despite my intolerance to Dickinson.

I guess every voice needs to be looked at as being distinctive and unique, despite its similarities to other voices. It's too hard to say that someone who dislikes one voice, should dislike another by default.

And AC/DC totally crossed my mind too. That is worse than Dickinson to me!

[TheGreatPretender]

Very good point about Ozzy. Especially considering that I love Ozzy, despite my intolerance to Dickinson.

I guess every voice needs to be looked at as being distinctive and unique, despite its similarities to other voices. It's too hard to say that someone who dislikes one voice, should dislike another by default.

And AC/DC totally crossed my mind too. That is worse than Dickinson to me!

Yeah, but at the same time, there are certain voice qualities that fall into some areas of being generic or similar. I mean, I don't think it's a far off assumption that if you like Queensryche, and like Geoff Tate's voice, you might also enjoy Fates Warning and Ray Adler's voice. They have a similar range, similar timbre and similar qualities, and I can understand how an untrained ear might even confuse the two, during certain points in their careers. So it's understandable why some voices are easier palatable by the general public, while others have something so unique it's jarring at first, especially when combined with certain styles, which is what I think the case with LaBrie is. It really was jarring to hear him on songs like Strange Deja-Vu when I furst heard DT, whereas, his more gentle tone and style, like on Through Her Eyes, I actually found pleasant right off the bat because the song was a softer ballad, and not overdriven headbanger.
The truth is, while I never outright disliked Bruce Dickinson's voice, and can appreciate his range and power, I never found him to be that good of a singer. Even now, I mean, his voice has a very harsh quality to it. Even on the 80s albums, he sounded like he was a 40 year old smoker to me. I always thought it was serviceable, and not all that jarring, but I never thought he was that great of a singer. I could easily nitpick at his style the way people do JLB.

[YtseJamittaja]

I remember when I made a presentation at school about Take the Time in the music lesson and my music teacher was really impressed about JLB's voice. My classmates were not so impressed at all, everybody was only confused about how many parts there are in the song. 

[TheGreatPretender]

I remember when I made a presentation at school about Take the Time in the music lesson and my music teacher was really impressed about JLB's voice. My classmates were not so impressed at all, everybody was only confused about how many parts there are in the song. 

It's funny, but kind of sad at the same time, haha.

[Outcrier]

People have bad taste in music. These are the same people that dislike SC, which I shockingly enough think is a pretty damn good album.

The majority of DT fans have bad taste in music then.

[Skeever]

Pretty much this. I would have to add one thing
-Singing voice really does not have much of a rock and roll edge

I think we discussed this in the other thread, lol, but again, it really depends on how you define rock'n'roll edge.. Metal edge, maybe. But I keep going back to comparing JLB to Robert Plant, and for all the praises that Plant gets, through his career, JLB has had more power and more grit, accompanying that amazing range. Way more "edge" than Robert Plant did in Zeppelin's glory days, and people hail Zeppelin as one of the best Rock'n'Roll bands ever.

Funny. I don't agree with that at all. James may have better range than Plant, but they're not even in the same league in my opinion. Plant is a legend. Only on Awake does James sing with any "edge" at all. Plant's voice always had a passionate bluesy edge, at least during Plant's prime. Not only does plant hit all the notes with a great rock timbre, but does other things like ad lib, which James has never really done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3ABDzdLls

Same with Dickinson. Dickinson may not have had the range of pre-accident James, but Dickinson brought energy and punk rock edge to Iron Maiden. Sometimes he didn't hit all the notes even on the records, but the way he screamed and ad-libbed and improvised is something that James has never really dabbled in.