Steven Wilson v. To. The. Bone.

[Prog Snob]

Wow, opened this thread and found two cool pieces of news: Steven Wilson on spotify and the USA tour.

Never seen him live, but I might check out the Denver show.

Woah, he's finally on Spotify. Granted, most of the Porcupine Tree disco is missing, but it's a start.

[seasonsinthesky]

The only way he could really get around it would be if he made albums with 1 songs on them, like a 55 minute song and that's the album. Then you can't split it up and listen to it out of order as easily. 

That's about the only thing on the prog checklist he hasn't done!

In the technical sense, of course. The Incident is basically that but with track splits.

It would end up being at LEAST two tracks, though, being the vinyl-lover that he is. So if it's one album, it'd end up being two 20-25 minute tracks for one album. Maybe he'd splice them together on the CD though...

-Marc.

Not that it's the same, but this was indeed the case with The Sky Moves Sideways alternate mix (one 34 minute piece on CD, split across two sides of vinyl).

The Incident disc 1 runs 55:08 though, so they'd be mighty long sides of vinyl! "The Yellow Windows..." is a pretty clear split point though. And perhaps some pieces could be edited down: mostly looking at some of the excess repetition in "Blind House" and atmospherics in "Occam's Razor," among other places. Potentially could've made the album better!

And then there's placing the 4 remaining songs between the two pieces, like TSMS...

Edit: Welp, I did it. The Incident part I after a bit of editing hits 23:15 and part II with hardly anything touched is 23:28. This is with "Yellow Windows" almost entirely removed (i.e. shortened to about 30 seconds on the end of I) and "I Drive the Hearse" left out (cuz then II runs 30 minutes!). I've always kinda considered IDTH separate anyway, what with the direct silence after "Circle of Manias," so it made sense to just sorta... leave it with the disc 2 songs.

[jammindude]

Lots of classic albums from the 70's were that long.  Selling England by the Pound was 53:50 and side 2 alone was 28:30.   

[The Letter M]

Lots of classic albums from the 70's were that long.  Selling England by the Pound was 53:50 and side 2 alone was 28:30.

True. Genesis albums tended to be on the longer side of vinyl. As for The Incident, the main album itself only comes up to about 55:08 long, which isn't unheard of in a single-vinyl album. Unfortunately, the 2nd half would be a bit too long due to the lopsided track order with "Times Flies" being SMACK DAB in the middle of the album, quite literally. If you cut the album in half just before "Time Flies", the first side would be an OK 25:02 long, which isn't bad. However, side two would be a little over 30 minutes long, and I'm not sure if vinyl can really handle that?

The official vinyl split the main album across three sides, with lengths of approximately 15:54, 20:48, and 18:26, which are all fairly standard lengths of a side of vinyl, and given Steven's penchant for wanting vinyl to sound good by not over-loading the sides with too much music, these are pretty perfect. It also allowed him to fill side four with the remaining four songs at about 20:27. As a double-vinyl, it definitely does work, but if Steven ever tries to do a single-song-length album, I can't imagine it being any longer than 40-45 minutes in length.

-Marc.

[seasonsinthesky]

However, side two would be a little over 30 minutes long, and I'm not sure if vinyl can really handle that?

It can indeed, but at risk of grooves running too closely together. Mostly it just results in lower volume and the loss of high frequency fidelity across more music as the needle comes closer to the centre label.

Good point about Genesis running long. Atom Heart Mother side 2 is another example, as well as first presses of some Bathory albums and, for some contemporary examples, Transatlantic!

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I had a random thought while listening to Steven Wilson the other day. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has mentioned this already, but here she goes...

Dream Theater get criticism sometimes for writing overindulgent instrumental sections, but to me, SW is perhaps even more guilty of that kind of thing. I feel like, perhaps, SW gets a pass sometimes because there's no shredding in his music. Everything he does has a real atmosphere and feel to it, but in some ways, his music can still go even more off the rails than DT's can. For example, Hand.Cannot.Erase has what is essentially 11 straight minutes of jamming and soloing during "Home Invasion" and "Regret #9". It takes me out of the album a little bit.

Was just curious if anyone else feels this way. I love SW to death, I guess there are just one or two aspects of his music that I'm not completely in love with.

[KevShmev]

Nope, I do not agree.

For one, it is not essentially 11 straight minutes of jamming. The latter half of Home Invasion, around three minutes, is the "song" part of the song, with verses and a chorus and all that.

As for Regret #9, both of those long solos are very tasteful.  Not that DT doesn't have plenty of tasty solos, but SW's music never spills over into that "wanky" style, even if his music has gotten a little more busy than it used to.  And let's face it, long instrumental sections are not new to his music; the newer stuff just focuses a little more on playing than the PT music of the early to mid 90s (that was largely instrumental).

[Mosh]

I love both bands. They both get self indulgent in different ways.

[Zantera]

SW has definitely gotten more "wanky" (like DT) with time. Definitely moreso on his last few albums than in the past. Whether or not that plays a part in why I've liked those albums less is a different question, but I've definitely noticed the change in him.

[Xanthul]

SW has definitely gotten more "wanky" (like DT) with time. Definitely moreso on his last few albums than in the past. Whether or not that plays a part in why I've liked those albums less is a different question, but I've definitely noticed the change in him.

Exactly the same for me. There's a couple sections in HCE that kinda take me out of the album too and I haven't listened to the Raven in a while because it's too busy for me (other than the title song and Drive Home).

[King Postwhore]

That's funny.   I never thought of a Steven Wilson album as too busy.  All his solo albums let every instrument breath.

[Evermind]

From Steven's FB:

The Transience compilation will be reissued on CD by Kscope in September. I'm not normally a fan of compilations, but I liked the idea of collecting the more accessible side of my solo material as an introduction for listeners who may not be familiar with my music. I think on those terms it works pretty well, but when it came out last year many people quite rightly pointed out the flaw in that plan by releasing it only on vinyl, and there have been regular requests for a CD edition, so here it is. Since the original release, a track from the recent 4 ½ mini album "Happiness III" has become the first song of mine in years to get any attention from BBC radio here in the UK, so I've taken the opportunity to add it the running order of the CD version, as it certainly fits the brief. On the compilation it's the full length version, but a 3.35 radio edit will also be released simultaneously on a limited run 7 inch vinyl and digitally, with my tribute to David Bowie "Space Oddity" recorded live at the Hammersmith Apollo Theatre (with Ninet Tayeb on guest vocals, you can watch a video of the performance by following the link below) as the B side. As with Transience the 7 inch cover is a portrait, this time by Susana Moyaho.

Yeah, you don't say.

[SoundscapeMN]

bump.

nice new Question and Answer video:
https://stevenwilsonhq.com/sw/for-those-that-missed-it-steven-wilson-facebook-live-qa-session/

new album should be more electronic.

[Sacul]

Bumping because I updated the playlist list again 

[?]

Marco seems to have a bone to pick with Steven:

Just flew by Mount Everest on our way from Nepal to Bangkok. Pretty amazing I have to say.
Now on a different quick note, I received a few questions about the gold awards for 'The Raven' and 'Hand.Cannot.Erase'. I'll try to keep it brief: Yes, some of the people involved in these productions had to learn through social media that these albums went gold. I seriously had no idea, so thanks for letting me know 😊.
Well and what can I say, also at the end of the day they're SW's albums and he decides whom to share the success with.
From what I've heard, some gold awards were given to one half of the band and the other half was excluded and not notified (very likely because of our decision for other band and touring commitments).
But nevermind, we were all involved and played in the studio and live as a band and I'd like to believe that our musical contributions somehow at least to a certain degree shaped the vibe and style of these albums.
Most important thing is that YOU appreciate and value the playing and contributions. So, thank you very much.
Happily moving on, come to see the Aristocrats 'Tres Caballeros' world tour. We're in the middle of our Asian/ Australia leg and wow, India and Nepal were surely new and amazing places for us to explore and play and I can't thank everyone enough for making this tour such a huge success.
Love you all :-),
M.

He also posted a comment on that post - he's deleted it since then, but I found it on Reddit:

Well, to be honest, Raven and HCE are the only gold awards in that catalogue, aren't they... And excluding us, just because we cherish our own band The Aristocrats and refuse to ass crawl, is kind of a dick move.... Take your gold records and shove it.

Marco is a great drummer and probably a cool guy too, but he can be pretty passive-aggressive with his posts sometimes, like when he was unhappy with the way he was portrayed in the DT drummer doc. Nick Beggs posted a pic of the HCE gold disc he got, but he didn't mention anything about Raven, so it seems to be unclear who got the gold discs for which albums.

[Zantera]

I can understand his frustration and I'm surprised SW didn't share that info with all his band members. You'd think after making albums and touring for 5 years or so, that a simple phone call or text message about the album going gold wouldn't be that much to ask.

[Mladen]

I bet Marco and Mike Portnoy would get along really well. 

All kidding aside, it's sad to see things playing out like that. Marco contributed some tremendous drumming on the last two Steven Wilson albums and was an incredibly charismatic drummer live. But it's equally sad to see passive-aggressive comments online.

[KevShmev]

I can also see how that would be frustrating, but I am not sure crying about it on the internet like a scorned teenager is the best way to channel that frustration.

[King Postwhore]

Which is also very Portnoy like.

[ChuckSteak]

I'm not surprised SW didn't share that info. He's always been pretty arrogant.

[Zantera]

I'm not surprised SW didn't share that info. He's always been pretty arrogant.

He definitely strikes me as the kind of musician who doesn't put too much value in the effort and performances of the people around him. After all it's HIS solo project with HIS name on it. The other people are just replaceable parts of his puzzle.

[BlackInk]

Is that Wilson's personal job to let everyone know?

[Skeever]

I'm not surprised SW didn't share that info. He's always been pretty arrogant.

He definitely strikes me as the kind of musician who doesn't put too much value in the effort and performances of the people around him. After all it's HIS solo project with HIS name on it. The other people are just replaceable parts of his puzzle.

I agree.

[KevShmev]

Pardon my French, but that is utter crap.  He has been vocal about how blessed he is to be surrounded by such great musicians, even saying on several occasions that having these guys around him enables him to expand his writing since they are all capable of playing better than he can.  He certainly has a bit of that British pretentious thing going on , but to suggest that he doesn't value the work others put into his projects makes absolutely no sense.

[RoeDent]

Marco should have aired his grievances with SW personally rather than moan about it online, making it public. Again, like Portnoy, fine drummer but not a particularly pleasant man. Respect level gone down in my book.

[bout to crash]

Pardon my French, but that is utter crap.  He has been vocal about how blessed he is to be surrounded by such great musicians, even saying on several occasions that having these guys around him enables him to expand his writing since they are all capable of playing better than he can.  He certainly has a bit of that British pretentious thing going on , but to suggest that he doesn't value the work others put into his projects makes absolutely no sense.

Yeah, I agree. Though I think Steven should have shared the info it doesn't mean he doesn't value the musicians he works with or justify this melodramatic crap.

That said, I still want to have both of their babies.

[The Letter M]

A lot of SW's decisions as of the last couple years have perplexed me - I mean, come on, releasing an album of single-like accessible songs for people to *DISCOVER* his music, but only release it in limited quantities, on a format that only people who might already be his fans would have....way to LIMIT the ability for new fans to discover you, Steven...

At least he rectified that mistake, and even acknowledged that it was a stupid mistake. I wonder, if anything, what he will say about his lack of acknowledging half of his band mates for the gold records of Raven and HCE. Marco makes a good point, though, that I don't think SW's first two solo albums went gold, and so to ignore the band that put out the two albums that DID go gold seems a bit odd to me. For all we know, the draw to Raven and HCE was probably widened BECAUSE OF Marco and those other band members joining the band before Raven came out. I remember being pretty hyped for an SW album that featured the likes of Marco and Guthrie, so I'm sure many others were too. Having them on board was a huge draw for me, so it's not impossible to think the same for thousands of other fans.

-Marc.

[ChuckSteak]

I wonder if people would be defending if it was Mike Portnoy who did that. 

[The Letter M]

I wonder if people would be defending if it was Mike Portnoy who did that. 

Well, it would be a different situation. Mike doesn't really WRITE music, but Steven does, although as to how much input the other members of SW's band put in on the Raven and HCE albums is questionable, I'm sure the majority of the music IS Steven's. Mike wouldn't hide gold records from any of his band mates, he seems too humble for that these days, especially with how much he loves Neal Morse, as well as his bandmates in The Winery Dogs. Mike doesn't really head-up a band anymore, at least not in the way he did with DT, so I think he's smart enough to not be that rude to his band mates. At least with Steven, though, because it is his music (more or less), I can understand why he wouldn't share the gold records with some the band members who helped him record his last two albums.

-Marc.

[?]

Pardon my French, but that is utter crap.  He has been vocal about how blessed he is to be surrounded by such great musicians, even saying on several occasions that having these guys around him enables him to expand his writing since they are all capable of playing better than he can.  He certainly has a bit of that British pretentious thing going on , but to suggest that he doesn't value the work others put into his projects makes absolutely no sense.

Yeah, I agree. Though I think Steven should have shared the info it doesn't mean he doesn't value the musicians he works with or justify this melodramatic crap.

That said, I still want to have both of their babies.

This, except the baby bit.

Or I don't know, maybe that one too...

Maybe SW considers Marco and Guthrie former members of his band and hence didn't bother contacting them? I've got the impression that gold and platinum awards are usually given to the musicians who are still part of the band. Also, according to Wikipedia it's typically the record label that manufactures the gold records, so Kscope may not have been willing to make more than a few of those.

Anyway, this is just speculation, and I agree everyone involved in the making of the albums should've been awarded, or at least SW should've given Marco and Guthrie a call and thanked them for contributing to his success.

[ErHaO]

I thought this was fairly common in the music industry? For example, Blind Guardian got gold records for their live DVD Trough the Looking Glass and one of the members that got a gold one was their current drummer, but not the drummer who you actually see/hear on given material (which, granted, is a bit silly, but also somewhat logical given that is the band in its current state). Furthermore, the one who hands these out is likely the record company themselves. 

That said, I can totally understand Marco, but one would think a personal/direct message to SW would suffice instead of an immediate passive agressive social media approach (depending on the answer he gets).



In regards to the whole vinyl-only thing, over here it kind of makes sense, as vinyls dominate the physical market. I know very few people under the 30 with a CD player (a dedicated one, that is), a lot of people from any age, however, own a vinyl player. You can also see it in the stores, quite often the CD corner is very small in comparison. That said, there have been many releases where the vinyl edition also contains the CD's (some Arjen Lucassen releases, and many pop releases) at the same standard pricing.

[Skeever]

Marco has always been outspoken about being treated poorly. Remember his comments on the DT audition?

I think it comes down to this: bands like Dream Theater and Steven Wilson are run like a business. In Wilson's case, he's the primary stakeholder and everyone else just comes and goes, regardless of what he may say in interviews about being "blessed" or whatever - it's Wilson's show and if you don't like it you're replaceable. At the NYC Wilson show, I actually met someone who claimed to have talked to Guthrie Govan recently, and I got the impression that Govan was just as annoyed with Wilson's dictator approach to his band, even if Govan has a lot more self-restraint than Minneman.

Wilson just strikes me as a nasty snob, even though I love the music. I'll never forget the interview where he completely trashed Roine Stolte, calling The Flower Kings and Transatlantic "the death of progressive music" - harsh words for a guy who's on his 3rd album of Genesis worship solo material. I've often wondered if Wilson didn't leave PT - a band where he probably had 90% control - because he couldn't stand knowing that the other 10% would never be his.
 
Love the music, but damn, the man is annoying.

[Mosh]

Yea, Wilson is a bit of a hypocrite with his whole "Flower Kings are the death of prog" deal.

I'm sure Wilson means it when he says that the musical contributions of his bandmates are important, but that doesn't make them any less hired guns to him.

[Zantera]

Steven Wilson has kinda made it a recurring thing to shoot down certain genres only to dip his feet into them himself. Maybe it's some form of reverse psychology, by shooting down bands that channel 70s prog by calling them regressive, when he puts out an album like that himself, the fans think "Oh this must be really good since he doesn't like newer bands making that kind of music". He's also been very outspoken for a long time about not really liking metal much at all (Opeth being an exception) yet PT brought in a metal element which stayed with them through several albums.

[Sacul]

I think he loves Meshuggah and NIN too, but those aren't any kind of typical metal I guess. Maybe he's just dissatisfied with most metal and wanted to try bring something new or interesting, dunno.