Author Topic: Haken v. Affinity, like Baconinity  (Read 61836 times)

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Offline Scorpion

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2015, 01:02:27 AM »
I really don't wanna turn this into a PoS thread, but I just wanna quickly say while I can get why PoS's music isn't everyone's cup of tea, I can not for the life of me understand calling them generic.

Sorry, I'll shut up now. Yay Haken and all that jazz.
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Offline krands85

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2015, 05:47:05 AM »
Has anyone heard a decent live performance from Ross?   His studio vocals are so beautiful to me...and I absolutely love his voice...but he seems to have some serious issues trying to do it live.    Even in the best ones I've seen, he's really breathy...thin...and pitchy.     I suppose it could just be his falsetto style, but I know other falsetto singers that are able to "bring it" live.   Jon Anderson for one.   When I first heard Ross on album, I thought he could be this generation's JA...but he needs to do exercises or get some vocal coaching or something.   Cause his live stuff is just not cutting it.
I was a bit concerned about how he was going to sound when I saw them in Edinburgh, but I thought he was great. But I'm not a vocal expert or even a musician, so I probably don't notice certain things. I guess I should check out some other live stuff on Youtube and see how it might compare to when I saw them.
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2015, 06:14:47 AM »
I've never seen them live, but when the first live videos of Atlas Stone appeared on Youtube, I thought he sounded.. Not very good. Then again, he is great on the Celestial Elixir live video. The high quality one. And from what I have heard he gets better and better.
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Offline ariich

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #108 on: February 06, 2015, 06:17:10 AM »
Jammin, is that based on amateur youtube videos? You should surely know that those are basically meaningless.

Ross' voice is variable live. Sometimes it's really good, sometimes it's still strong but his pitching wavers a bit, and on occasion it's a little weak, especially if he's got a cold or something. Overall I would say he's a good but inconsistent live singer. I would also say that I think on the whole he's been getting better and better, and I've seen them live a LOT.

Offline ariich

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2015, 06:18:39 AM »
I've never seen them live, but when the first live videos of Atlas Stone appeared on Youtube, I thought he sounded.. Not very good. Then again, he is great on the Celestial Elixir live video. The high quality one. And from what I have heard he gets better and better.
Yeah that's the only pro recording of them and he sounds great on it. And that was a few years ago and on his good nights he's stronger than that now, so yeah.

Offline Zydar

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #110 on: February 06, 2015, 06:19:51 AM »
Rich, can you talk them into shooting a professional live video? :P

Offline ariich

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2015, 06:30:14 AM »
Rich, can you talk them into shooting a professional live video? :P
I'm fairly certain they're already keen on the idea, just a matter of the label being interested I imagine. They're touring more now, and what with the success of The Mountain and Restoration I imagine it's only a matter of time.

Offline Zydar

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2015, 06:32:14 AM »
Excellent!

Offline jammindude

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2015, 06:53:16 AM »
I'm happy he's been getting better.   I know there can often be a "transition phase" when singers go from playing gigs a few times a month while still holding down a day job, to touring for 3 months solid or more.

Again, I want to stress that I LOVE Ross' voice.   I'll have to look at the pro-shot Celestial Elixir video.
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Offline ariich

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2015, 07:29:09 AM »
Can't believe you haven't seen it already!

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2015, 10:44:38 AM »
PoS never did anything for me either.  The acronym is frighteningly accurate.

*giggle*

Dunno that I'd go that far, but their stuff always sounded very generic/stock to me...unless I haven't listened to the right material, not sure.

Even as a defender of their most recent work....it is admittedly hit and miss.

But if you haven't heard The Perfect Element or Remedy Lane, you *have not* heard what everyone has been drooling over for a decade.   BE has gotten kinder reviews more recently than when it came out...and it's really amazing as well...but I don't think it's a good starter album just because it's more of a "performance art" piece than an actual album.   Feels almost more like a soundtrack.   It's definitely a concept piece that is stunning from start to finish, but there's really only about 4 or 5 "songs" that can be lifted and played out of context without sounding weird. 

But seriously.   The Perfect Element and/or Remedy Lane.   If you like those better than what you've already heard, then test the water with BE. 
I've given all of those multiple listens. 

I don't like them.  I'm not picking up what they are laying down.  I'm happy that you do.

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Offline YtseJamittaja

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2015, 01:51:26 AM »
I listened the old demos today. I have listened to them maybe once earlier but now when Restoration is out, it was interesting to hear the differences. This made me appreciate the new versions even more. There is a few great sections in Snow but I think they did pretty great job cutting and pasting parts for Crystallised.
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Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2015, 07:13:03 AM »
I remember a picture on their facebook showing the meter changes to a song from Visions with one bar in 31/32. Has anyone found where that measure is yet?  ;D

Ok, so I asked Rich about this today during my guitar lesson - turns out it's not actually a bar in 31/32 in the sense that it's done that way to get a certain groove or off-timing or anything; he was saying sometimes using the software that they use, they have a need to ground the tune back to a standard 4/4 or something for timing purposes...so that 31/32 was merely added in order to return the song to standard timing for time-matching purposes.

I know this may be disappointing to some, but I thought it was pretty interesting.

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2015, 09:52:00 AM »
Cool that you got an answer! In all seriousness I figured that's what probably happened, awesome to get confirmation.


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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2015, 10:01:00 AM »
I remember a picture on their facebook showing the meter changes to a song from Visions with one bar in 31/32. Has anyone found where that measure is yet?  ;D

Ok, so I asked Rich about this today during my guitar lesson - turns out it's not actually a bar in 31/32 in the sense that it's done that way to get a certain groove or off-timing or anything; he was saying sometimes using the software that they use, they have a need to ground the tune back to a standard 4/4 or something for timing purposes...so that 31/32 was merely added in order to return the song to standard timing for time-matching purposes.

I know this may be disappointing to some, but I thought it was pretty interesting.

Funny because I wrote their Facebook page (where I occasionally will get replies from "Charlie"...assuming that's Griffiths) asking about the time signatures at the end of Deathless and this rumored 31/32 bar.   Here was the reply I got:

"Sorry to shatter the illusion, but we don't really remember what's on the record either - live we just jam it and see what happens. Every time is an experiment! That 31/32 bar was just a terrible prog joke. We're gonna play a few US dates at the end of May - hopefully you'll be able to make it to one of them."
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Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2015, 10:48:06 AM »
I remember a picture on their facebook showing the meter changes to a song from Visions with one bar in 31/32. Has anyone found where that measure is yet?  ;D

Ok, so I asked Rich about this today during my guitar lesson - turns out it's not actually a bar in 31/32 in the sense that it's done that way to get a certain groove or off-timing or anything; he was saying sometimes using the software that they use, they have a need to ground the tune back to a standard 4/4 or something for timing purposes...so that 31/32 was merely added in order to return the song to standard timing for time-matching purposes.

I know this may be disappointing to some, but I thought it was pretty interesting.

Funny because I wrote their Facebook page (where I occasionally will get replies from "Charlie"...assuming that's Griffiths) asking about the time signatures at the end of Deathless and this rumored 31/32 bar.   Here was the reply I got:

"Sorry to shatter the illusion, but we don't really remember what's on the record either - live we just jam it and see what happens. Every time is an experiment! That 31/32 bar was just a terrible prog joke. We're gonna play a few US dates at the end of May - hopefully you'll be able to make it to one of them."

Yea makes sense - to be fair Rich initially was like "I don't really remember that"...then when I started talking about that facebook post and such that's when it seemed to ring a bell and say it was only for grounding the track back to a normal timing or something.

He did reference another artist that once made use of 63/64...that's just insane lol Don't recall exactly whom or when because this was towards the end of the lesson and he was in a rush to head out.

But I mean, both answers seem in line to me, really, if you think about it.

What reply did you get about the time changing in Deathless? I would have asked about that too but could not for the life of my remember what you guys were hypothesizing on here (nevermind that until I came on here this morning I thought the track in question was Pareidolia lol)

Offline jammindude

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #121 on: February 07, 2015, 02:23:18 PM »
That's what the "I don't remember what's on the record either" was in regard to.   He was basically just saying that they make it up as they go and don't worry about what time it's in.

I suppose I could kinda see that from a guitarists POV...but doesn't the drummer generally NEED to know how to count this stuff out so everyone is on the same page? 

The idea that these guys just randomly throw paint at the wall and have the Mona Lisa spontaneously appear is just insane to me.     SOMEONE in that band is a mathematical genius...even if maybe it's on a "idiot savant" level and they are not even realizing they're doing it.   
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Offline ariich

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #122 on: February 07, 2015, 04:36:28 PM »
He did reference another artist that once made use of 63/64...that's just insane lol Don't recall exactly whom or when because this was towards the end of the lesson and he was in a rush to head out.

I think that's Spiral Architect or someone like that. :lol Me and my brother (Haken's original keyboardist) used to listen to stuff like that sometimes for a laugh, so I expect Hen knows that stuff too.

Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #123 on: February 07, 2015, 05:32:51 PM »
That's what the "I don't remember what's on the record either" was in regard to.   He was basically just saying that they make it up as they go and don't worry about what time it's in.

I suppose I could kinda see that from a guitarists POV...but doesn't the drummer generally NEED to know how to count this stuff out so everyone is on the same page? 

The idea that these guys just randomly throw paint at the wall and have the Mona Lisa spontaneously appear is just insane to me.     SOMEONE in that band is a mathematical genius...even if maybe it's on a "idiot savant" level and they are not even realizing they're doing it.

I honestly think you're overthinking it...31/32 is so miniscule that it may have made a difference on software to get the clicks to line up to 4/4 again or something, but realistically, in a live environment, would make little to not difference whatsoever...unless they were using a click track, which I don't think they do.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM by benrosemberg »

Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #124 on: February 07, 2015, 05:39:56 PM »
He did reference another artist that once made use of 63/64...that's just insane lol Don't recall exactly whom or when because this was towards the end of the lesson and he was in a rush to head out.

I think that's Spiral Architect or someone like that. :lol Me and my brother (Haken's original keyboardist) used to listen to stuff like that sometimes for a laugh, so I expect Hen knows that stuff too.

Your brother is Peter Jones? May I ask why he left the band?

On an side note, but still keyboard related, Rich seems to do a lot of the keyboard work anyway...I had to ask him today what Diego actually plays lol

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2015, 05:52:17 PM »
Ariich will obviously give you a better answer, but if memory serves it was Peter unable to give full time commitments to the band and keep up with things. I could be off, but I think I recall that.

As for Diego, what is done in the studio I don't know, but live he is clearly the main keyboard player.

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Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2015, 05:54:10 PM »
Yea for sure...I was just surprised, for example, to see that for Streams, it's Rich that plays that main intro riff...thought it would be left to Diego

Offline jammindude

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #127 on: February 07, 2015, 08:13:23 PM »
I've come to the conclusion that making a Haken "mix CD" is just nothing short of impossible.   I don't recall that I've *ever* with any other band had this much trouble trying to make a diverse mix CD that represents every album.    I mean...their catalog is SO DENSELY GOOD that I'm having a tough time picking favorites. 

This is a mix that I came up with, but the songs I had to leave off were so painful that it almost seems anti-climactic.

1. Premonition
2. Cockroach King
3. Streams
4. Earthlings
5. Falling Back to Earth
6. Drowning in the Flood
7. Deathless
8. Crystallised

Total Time - 79:10

Every release is represented by 2 songs...not necessarily "the best" 2 songs either, as "flow" had to be taken under consideration. 

If you had to make a mix CD representing the bands entire catalog...what would you choose?  Anyone?   
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Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #128 on: February 07, 2015, 10:05:31 PM »
I've come to the conclusion that making a Haken "mix CD" is just nothing short of impossible.   I don't recall that I've *ever* with any other band had this much trouble trying to make a diverse mix CD that represents every album.    I mean...their catalog is SO DENSELY GOOD that I'm having a tough time picking favorites. 

This is a mix that I came up with, but the songs I had to leave off were so painful that it almost seems anti-climactic.

1. Premonition
2. Cockroach King
3. Streams
4. Earthlings
5. Falling Back to Earth
6. Drowning in the Flood
7. Deathless
8. Crystallised

Total Time - 79:10

Every release is represented by 2 songs...not necessarily "the best" 2 songs either, as "flow" had to be taken under consideration. 

If you had to make a mix CD representing the bands entire catalog...what would you choose?  Anyone?

I honestly couldn't...their albums just have this amazing flow where some songs are made better by their placement and context.

Having said that, if you put a gun to my head and absolutely made me choose, it would probably consist of their epics (in no particular order, for the sake of discussion, and on an 80 minute disc);

- Crystallised - 19:23
- Celestial Elixir - 16:56
- Visions - 22:25
- Falling Back to Earth - 11:50
- The Mind's Eye -> Portals -> Shapeshifter (I equate this to DT's A Mind Beside Itself) - 17:40

Ok, so this comes in at 85 minutes or so...in order to keep it at 80 I'd either replace Celestial Elixir or the last set of tracks with either Streams or Aquarius...this should then keep it under 80 minutes.


Offline Mosh

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #129 on: February 07, 2015, 10:29:29 PM »
That's what the "I don't remember what's on the record either" was in regard to.   He was basically just saying that they make it up as they go and don't worry about what time it's in.

I suppose I could kinda see that from a guitarists POV...but doesn't the drummer generally NEED to know how to count this stuff out so everyone is on the same page? 

The idea that these guys just randomly throw paint at the wall and have the Mona Lisa spontaneously appear is just insane to me.     SOMEONE in that band is a mathematical genius...even if maybe it's on a "idiot savant" level and they are not even realizing they're doing it.

I honestly think you're overthinking it...31/32 is so miniscule that it may have made a difference on software to get the clicks to line up to 4/4 again or something, but realistically, in a live environment, would make little to not difference whatsoever...unless they were using a click track, which I don't think they do.
I think they do record to a click. The screenshot looks like it's from Logic and the only reason you'd put the time signatures there is if you were recording to a click. Plus if they track instruments separately they might not always do drums first which means a click is necessary. That's probably what happened: Someone recorded their part to a click (maybe not even the drums) and it was slightly off in a bar which threw the rest of the track out of sync and instead of redoing it they just dropped that measure by a 32nd.

Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #130 on: February 07, 2015, 10:33:21 PM »
Yup, that seems right...you pretty much articulated what I was trying to say lol

Offline ariich

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #131 on: February 08, 2015, 03:38:28 AM »
Your brother is Peter Jones? May I ask why he left the band?
Yep! Pete was only a teenager when he was in the band still in secondary school or high school for you north Americans - side note: he's the same age as Ray Hearne, they were at school together and are still good friends - in fact, he was the one who introduced Ray to the band in the first place.

He left because he wanted to go to university and realised that it wasn't going to be practical balancing that with being in the band, and even if the band had made it big (which they subsequently did) he wasn't really interested in the touring lifestyle anyway. It was a good decision as he made good use of his university route and is now doing a PHD in theoretical physics. :lol He's still on great terms with the band and we both make it to most of their gigs.

Quote
On an side note, but still keyboard related, Rich seems to do a lot of the keyboard work anyway...I had to ask him today what Diego actually plays lol
Mm, not really, unless you'd also suggest that Charlie doesn't really do anything either. :lol Haken has a lot of keyboard going on, and they have 2 keyboard parts nearly as much as they have 2 guitar parts. Basically Charlie plays guitar, Diego plays keys and Hen plays either, whichever is needed.

I think they do record to a click.
They definitely do. They don't usually play live to a click though, but they have done sometimes.

I'll have a go at a "mix CD" in a bit, but it's going to be damn hard. Fortunately I don't smile all over the longest songs like most people, so that particular challenge won't be difficult for me. :lol

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2015, 03:56:42 AM »
I generally like the longest the most, but I wouldn't put them on a mix CD, except for maybe one. As jammindude said, 'flow' has to be considered. And a CD with all the epics wouldn't flow very well.
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Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #133 on: February 08, 2015, 05:49:05 AM »
Your brother is Peter Jones? May I ask why he left the band?
Yep! Pete was only a teenager when he was in the band still in secondary school or high school for you north Americans - side note: he's the same age as Ray Hearne, they were at school together and are still good friends - in fact, he was the one who introduced Ray to the band in the first place.

He left because he wanted to go to university and realised that it wasn't going to be practical balancing that with being in the band, and even if the band had made it big (which they subsequently did) he wasn't really interested in the touring lifestyle anyway. It was a good decision as he made good use of his university route and is now doing a PHD in theoretical physics. :lol He's still on great terms with the band and we both make it to most of their gigs.

Quote
On an side note, but still keyboard related, Rich seems to do a lot of the keyboard work anyway...I had to ask him today what Diego actually plays lol
Mm, not really, unless you'd also suggest that Charlie doesn't really do anything either. :lol Haken has a lot of keyboard going on, and they have 2 keyboard parts nearly as much as they have 2 guitar parts. Basically Charlie plays guitar, Diego plays keys and Hen plays either, whichever is needed.

I think they do record to a click.
They definitely do. They don't usually play live to a click though, but they have done sometimes.

I'll have a go at a "mix CD" in a bit, but it's going to be damn hard. Fortunately I don't smile all over the longest songs like most people, so that particular challenge won't be difficult for me. :lol

Good stuff...this forum should have a 'like' feature to avoid space-wasting replies like this :)

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #134 on: February 08, 2015, 08:54:21 AM »
I've come to the conclusion that making a Haken "mix CD" is just nothing short of impossible.   I don't recall that I've *ever* with any other band had this much trouble trying to make a diverse mix CD that represents every album.    I mean...their catalog is SO DENSELY GOOD that I'm having a tough time picking favorites. 

This is a mix that I came up with, but the songs I had to leave off were so painful that it almost seems anti-climactic.

1. Premonition
2. Cockroach King
3. Streams
4. Earthlings
5. Falling Back to Earth
6. Drowning in the Flood
7. Deathless
8. Crystallised

Total Time - 79:10

Every release is represented by 2 songs...not necessarily "the best" 2 songs either, as "flow" had to be taken under consideration. 

If you had to make a mix CD representing the bands entire catalog...what would you choose?  Anyone?

I like your mix! I am pretty good playlist maker, I think, so here is my 79+ minutes of Haken goodness.

The Path
Atlas Stone
Drowning in the Flood
The Mind's Eye -> Portals -> Shapeshifter
Darkest Light
Falling Back to Earth
Visions

I think this flows like a real album and showcases all the facets of Haken except their old growling vocals, which I am trying to erase from memory. LOL

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #135 on: February 08, 2015, 09:02:45 AM »
As for the mix... that's going to be damn tough...

Well it clearly shows my preferences for The Mountain and the debut, here is mine.

Darkest Light
Cockroach King
Drowning in the Flood (could be substituted with Point of No Return)
Nocturnal Conspiracy
Falling Back to Earth
Pareidolia
Celestial Elixir

77 minutes.

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #136 on: February 08, 2015, 07:11:46 PM »
Inspired by this thread, I now have a second mix playlist in my phone. My B playlist:

Premonition
Nocturnal Conspiracy
Cockroach King
Crystallized
In Memoriam
Deathless
Celestial Elixir

Just around 75 minutes.

My A playlist is still far superior, though. :)

Offline GasparXR

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #137 on: February 15, 2015, 12:41:26 PM »
I am definitely going to save up to go see them in Montreal. Anyone else planning on going?

Offline benrosemberg

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #138 on: February 15, 2015, 01:24:14 PM »
I am definitely going to save up to go see them in Montreal. Anyone else planning on going?

I chose Detroit over Montreal because Spock's Beard caused the ticket prices to triple!

Offline rumborak

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Re: Haken v. Restoration, like Baconoration
« Reply #139 on: February 15, 2015, 05:47:54 PM »
Only checking into the thread for asking, is it for real that they are touring with Next to None?
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."