Author Topic: Gender Neutral Bathrooms  (Read 2780 times)

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Online eric42434224

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2014, 09:15:39 AM »

Realistically, an employer does need to think about keeping qualified, productive and profitable employees happy. Especially in some high skill industries. Employee retention is much more economical than continuous employee training.

Hadn't considered that.  It is a financial incentive for the company. 

But it is also a financial consideration for the company to fight a lawsuit.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2014, 12:27:51 PM »

Probably because it's super cheap and makes bathrooms way easier to clean.

Pretty much it in a nutshell. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2014, 12:37:50 PM »
And rights conflict all the time.

Seems like a simple solution might be to start building heads with stall walls that go floor to ceiling. Wouldn't that facilitate such a change if it did become important enough to implement?

Well, that's where the rubber meets the road, isn't it?  Something like 15 states (at last count; it may be higher now) have anti-discrimination laws that include gender and gender-identification and would apply to public services like bathrooms, so I don't think this actually goes to "rights".  There is leeway as to how that requirement is met; whether there are two rooms that each service all occupants, or whether there are two rooms that each service half the population (based on gender), as long as all occupants of the building have the same access to one of those rooms (and the rooms provide consistent services), the rights question is essentially answered.   There might be details that influence this, but as a general proposition...

So we are at the level of "what is a reasonable balance between the base requirements and what employees might request as part of their satisfaction".  So absent any other information, we are at "happy". 

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2014, 12:56:54 PM »
I'm envisioning bathrooms of 5+ stalls that are open to both sexes. I'm sorry, but I don't want that.

Why not?

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2014, 06:48:38 AM »
I was actually in a gender neutral bathroom last night (which I've never seen before) and it was just loads of cubicles, nothing wrong really, it was just a bit strange seeing a girl walk in as I was washing my hands.

But it isn't really needed because normal bathrooms have cubicles anyway, making it the same situation as a gender neutral one...

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2014, 07:57:06 AM »
I always find it strange that places that have bathrooms for a single person are gender-exclusive.  They will have two bathrooms, one for men and one for women, but if only one person can go in either at a time, why not just make both gender neutral?  What if four women need to use the bathroom and the men's room is unoccupied?  They should really have to wait? Seems silly to me.

Offline Podaar

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2014, 08:35:20 AM »
At the risk of sounding like Donny Baker, "It's State Law." At least it is in my state, if you have over a certain square foot building that's open to the public you must have a Men's and Women's toilet. Someone got it put into our local building codes. It would be interesting to find out how that happened.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2014, 09:42:13 AM »
Yet in mant states there's nothing codified that says you can't use whichever is available. I think that's one of the issues here. Cali where this thing originated makes it illegal to use the other gender's john. Don't know know if enforcement of that was actually part of the problem, though.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2014, 09:54:45 AM »
I might be changing the subject slightly, but don't clubs already have a headache trying to keep people from sneaking into each others bathrooms to "get it on"?   It seems to me that if bathrooms in said club were suddenly gender neutral, and the club could no longer say "hey, you can't go in there", they would have an even bigger headache.   
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2014, 10:00:37 AM »
I might be changing the subject slightly, but don't clubs already have a headache trying to keep people from sneaking into each others bathrooms to "get it on"?   It seems to me that if bathrooms in said club were suddenly gender neutral, and the club could no longer say "hey, you can't go in there", they would have an even bigger headache.   
I would think the problem would be far improved by the benefit of bouncers being able to stick their heads in from time to time.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2014, 07:42:35 AM »
Not to mention, if there is no longer any "law" being broken by both sexes using the bathrooms, the problem literally goes away for the club. They can stay out of peoples noses and let people get it on if they want too. Also, I'm pretty sure if you take away the taboo, you take away a great deal of the thrill so incidents go down anyway.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2014, 09:12:34 AM »
Well, I would imagine that sex in public would still be illegal.   So no, I don't think the problem goes away.   
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2014, 03:22:22 PM »
They just have the opposite problem: if you don't want a unisex bathroom, you are shit out of luck.  Pun intended. 

...why would you want a non-unisex bathroom?

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2014, 07:14:33 AM »
A couple of years ago, we were at a concert in Philly, at the Wells Fargo Center.  VERY big concert hall, where the 76ers and the Flyers play also.  Cheap Trick/Aerosmith was the bill, I believe.  Going into the bathroom, I see two chicks go strolling into the mens' room, because there was NO WAY they were gonna wait in the line to go to the ladies' room.  The guys in the mens' room all kinda looked a little like "WTF?", but nobody said anything.  I think they may have been a little drunk also.  And dressed like total groupies, but still, it was kinda comical.

Without any sort of research or anything to back it up, my gut instinct would be that women would be more likely to have issue with the idea of a unisex bathroom than men.  I can't see the harm in it, but I also can't see a place that's been operating for a long time just fine with two separate bathrooms wanting to go out of their way to make a brand new bathroom for this purpose.  That's a pricey fix to pacify what is likely to be a very small percentage of your clientele.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2014, 07:31:55 AM »
That's a pricey fix to pacify what is likely to be a very small percentage of your clientele.
This exactly, and I don't see the drastic need to ask private business owners to do it, and it seems a ridiculous thing to spend taxpayer money on for public buildings.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2014, 01:17:35 PM »
In practical terms I don't think it would matter for public buildings seeing as they would likely have to have a disabled unisex cubicle somewhere.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2014, 12:36:24 PM »
I always find it strange that places that have bathrooms for a single person are gender-exclusive.  They will have two bathrooms, one for men and one for women, but if only one person can go in either at a time, why not just make both gender neutral?  What if four women need to use the bathroom and the men's room is unoccupied?  They should really have to wait? Seems silly to me.
precisely, single-occupancy gender neutral restrooms are the way to go. For the benefit of transgender people (who can get even physically attacked early on in transition when they're using basically any of the bathrooms for being perceived as the "wrong" gender), but also for family purposes (you don't have to ponder to which bathroom you'll take your preteen child when they say they have to go), for people taking care of disabled people or elders, for purposes like being able to escort your friend of the opposite gender to the bathroom if they're not feeling well and need some water on their face or w/e. Like yeah, it doesn't happen a lot, but for some people it would take a lot of anxiety out of their lives, while changing nothing in ours. Or you could also not have to wait for a free cubicle if the other bathroom is entirely unoccupied in order not to piss your pants :lol

Having said that, the exclusive atmosphere of the ladies' room at parties is a thing I cherish a lot. You have no idea how many compliments, tips, life-saving articles of makeup/cosmetics/pads, and laughs I exchanged in the ladies' room. And nothing like those bathroom selfies.

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Offline Lucien

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2014, 12:47:09 PM »
If we have unisex bathrooms as a commonality, it would be awful because of all the douchebags that piss all over the seat. All I have to say about that.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2014, 12:50:05 PM »
In practical terms I don't think it would matter for public buildings seeing as they would likely have to have a disabled unisex cubicle somewhere.
Here in America, most gendered restrooms are outfitted for disabled people, especially in public buildings.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2014, 01:12:05 PM »
Here you can't get anything anything like that. The only two bathrooms in a 200k town that account for any special needs are in our largest shopping mall - one that has a space for you to change your baby, and one for disabled people.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2014, 01:15:47 PM »
In practical terms I don't think it would matter for public buildings seeing as they would likely have to have a disabled unisex cubicle somewhere.
Here in America, most gendered restrooms are outfitted for disabled people, especially in public buildings.

Ya, maybe it's just my state law, but here in Washington, that is *required*.   Can't have a bathroom without a handicap stall. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2014, 02:47:59 PM »
 :tup
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2014, 03:50:03 PM »
I reckon that's part of ADA compliance. Any head designed for more than a fairly small number of people is probably required to have a handicap stall. I also see changing stations in most public men's rooms, now.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2014, 03:53:41 AM »
In practical terms I don't think it would matter for public buildings seeing as they would likely have to have a disabled unisex cubicle somewhere.
Here in America, most gendered restrooms are outfitted for disabled people, especially in public buildings.

Ah, fair enough. In europe, it's quite often a separate unit, I assumed it would be similar in the USA.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2014, 07:19:11 PM »
I was talking with my wife about a recent movement in Sweden to start using gender-neutral terms when addressing all children in day-care centers and the like....and the subject of this thread starting being discussed.     My wife immediately brought up a very good point.

I do see a big problem that involves males being stereotypically speaking, much more sexually predatory than females.   (you can always pick out examples to the opposite...but *generally* speaking, history and science have both shown that males have a tendency to be the more sexual predatory of the two genders)

That being said, this is the main reason why women have generally been the ones to seek privacy in their bathrooms while men tend not to care as much.   (ever heard of a group of girls willing to risk life and limb just to get a peek at the boys showering?   Ya...me neither)

This further led to the idea of having children and the age in which you generally start letting them go to public bathrooms on their own.     Think of this for a moment.  Your 8 year old daughter is at an age where she can use a bathroom stall all by herself and doesn't need an adults assistance.    If I'm at the local fast food restaurant (or maybe even out at Applebees or something) I would have no problem with her running off to use the little girls room by herself.     But if all bathrooms were gender-neutral???  And men and women shared a public bathroom with multiple stalls?     Ya....NO WAY my daughter is going in there by herself.    Not in a million years.    And as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't let her go to the bathroom alone in a public place ever again until she moved out of the house. 

You can say that we need to teach people to be more respectful from a young age...and you'd be right.   But that's very idealistic, and not looking at the reality of the situation.    Gender neutral bathrooms *WILL* (not "may"...WILL) be a more open avenue for sexual predators with a loose wire in their head. 

Heck, I'm a boy, and as a teenager I can tell you that *I* was peeped in on on several occasions.    It's actually given me a bit of a public bathroom phobia.   They creep me out because it happened several times.    You'd be surprised how many creeps try to peep in on bathroom stalls.   And if I hadn't been paranoid from the first guy, I may have never even known about the guys that came after, because I wouldn't have been paying attention and instead just doing my business.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2014, 07:39:33 PM »
I see a couple of things that are problematical there. First off, if you're concerned about sexual predators, why let an 8 year old boy use a public john alone? I believe we're talking about predation rather than attraction, in which case I doubt prepubescent lads are much different than the lasses. The second thing is that you have to take into account social norms. In a situation like you described there are going to be others in there, male and female, that aren't going to let anything happen to the youngins. I'm as peaceful as they come and I see something along the lines of what you're hinting at and I'm beating somebody's ass. Down here that would be a suicidal act.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2014, 07:56:54 PM »
That may be...but since predation is not going away (because it has always been...and doesn't show any signs of stopping, no matter how many times we fire them out of cannons into brick walls) wouldn't you have to agree that these predators will now have access to a whole new group of children that they did not previously have access to? 

And it might be based on an old fashioned idea that boys should be able to take care of themselves more than girls...and I'm not insinuating that boys aren't hurt by this...but haven't we established that (again *generally speaking*...I understand there are exceptions) girls tend to be more emotionally fragile?   But that may be a loaded statement.   

More to the point, remember that nothing is actually *happening* to the youngins necessarily.   IDK, maybe even in my case, I would have been better off if I had just remained ignorant of how many people actually peeped in on bathroom stalls.   One guy in particular, I might have never known about if I had not been waiting for him to leave.   But he kept blowing his nose using TP from the stall next to me, and then moving his head so that he could peep between the cracks of the door every time he reached in to grab more.   Maybe I should have just got up, wiped my butt, ignorantly given him his peep show and left completely ignorant.    But instead...because I was paranoid from my first experience...I was waiting for him to leave.    By the time he had blown his nose *FOR THE TENTH TIME* and kept making sure he could look right at me between the cracks of the door every time he went past to reach into the next stall for more toilet paper....     I finally told the guy to leave...and he ran.   

I'm just saying that it's not always obvious.   And if the kid never knows what happened because they weren't looking.   Does that make it ok?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gender Neutral Bathrooms
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2014, 07:33:04 AM »
That may be...but since predation is not going away (because it has always been...and doesn't show any signs of stopping, no matter how many times we fire them out of cannons into brick walls) wouldn't you have to agree that these predators will now have access to a whole new group of children that they did not previously have access to? 

And it never will, because it isn't necessarily a function of "teaching".    It is not something that many people want to discuss (and some consider it an extremely un-PC topic of discussion) but some people are just plain born that way. 

We readily (and rightly) accept that homosexuality is not a choice, but it seems as though we are reluctant to accept that perhaps other, less savory or societally acceptable variations on the sexual continuum are also not a choice?    Why is it hard to accept that some people are just born to be sexual predators?   I certainly understand that the impacts are different, but history is littered with examples of where the sexual predilection has overwhelmed what society has found to be acceptable or positive in terms of behavior.