Author Topic: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?  (Read 15126 times)

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2014, 11:35:02 AM »
Chino always wins anyway.  It comes with the territory of being Chino, and all.

Offline Chino

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2014, 11:44:58 AM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2014, 12:09:40 PM »
Well, you don't necessarily have to pray FOR anything.  Prayer is basically communicating with God.  It is keeping up your end of the relationship.  In any relationship, communication is key.  Prayer is communicating with God. 
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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2014, 12:12:13 PM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

Praying for a good outcome in your own personal circumstance would be my first thought.

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Offline Chino

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2014, 12:15:30 PM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

Praying for a good outcome in your own personal circumstance would be my first thought.

But doesn't your freewill (and others' freewill) dictate the circumstance's of your life?

Offline Podaar

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2014, 12:16:13 PM »
In all seriousness, I can't think of a single instance of a believer, that I know personally, having prayed for trivial things (like Stadler's $100). It may happen but I think it's very rare and not what I'm really interested in. I don't believe us godless folks do ourselves any favors by reducing prayer to cartoonish levels.

Have you ever been annoyed when after a field goal, the NFL kicker points up to the heavens? If you are, I submit that you don't really understand the genuflection. It's likely that the kicker is thanking his god NOT for making the ball go through the uprights, but is actually acknowledging his god's generosity in giving him the capacity to do it himself. Subtle, but different.

I think I've mentioned before that I was raised in a pervasively religious environment, and still live in Salt Lake City where, as you can imagine, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a person of faith. In all that time the faithful typically pray for healthy food, good health, the presence of deity (spirit) at their gatherings, safety while traveling, personal courage, and on rare occasions for someone to be healed. I fail to see how that is affecting another person's free will.

Kinda ninja'd

Offline Chino

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2014, 12:26:05 PM »
In all that time the faithful typically pray for healthy food, good health, the presence of deity (spirit) at their gatherings, safety while traveling, personal courage, and on rare occasions for someone to be healed. I fail to see how that is affecting another person's free will.

Kinda ninja'd

Healthy Food: That's up to the corporations not cutting corners and the people at the grocery store handling it responsibly.
Good Health: That's up to the diet you choose to eat and how much you want to exercise. You can also go as far as saying that the greed of the coporate heads have reduced your pay to the point where you can't afford to eat healthy. Damn their freewill.
the presence of deity (spirit) at their gatherings: I would think that's up to the deity. And isn't God with you at all times anyway?
Safety While Traveling: Let's hope those run way mechanics weren't lazy this morning, or that douche bag didn't drink too many beers before leaving the bar.
Personal Courage: I think this is all a mindset dictated by some of the examples above as well as other unmentioned ones.
Someone to Be Healed: I hope that doctor paid attention in class, or that nurse who's a wreck from his/her recent breakup doesn't mix up your medications with another patient's.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2014, 12:28:47 PM »
Are you serious?
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Offline Podaar

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2014, 12:31:44 PM »
Healthy Food: That's up to the corporations not cutting corners and the people at the grocery store handling it responsibly.
Good Health: That's up to the diet you choose to eat and how much you want to exercise. You can also go as far as saying that the greed of the coporate heads have reduced your pay to the point where you can't afford to eat healthy. Damn their freewill.
the presence of deity (spirit) at their gatherings: I would think that's up to the deity. And isn't God with you at all times anyway?
Safety While Traveling: Let's hope those run way mechanics weren't lazy this morning, or that douche bag didn't drink too many beers before leaving the bar.
Personal Courage: I think this is all a mindset dictated by some of the examples above as well as other unmentioned ones.
Someone to Be Healed: I hope that doctor paid attention in class, or that nurse who's a wreck from his/her recent breakup doesn't mix up your medications with another patient's.

Okay, I see what you're driving at now. I think you're splitting hairs. I don't think that's the way they see it.

Are you serious?

See? Hef is confused by your stance.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2014, 12:33:15 PM »
I'm going to throw this thought into the mix with no expectation whatsoever that anyone will respond. Nor, do I make any value judgement based on any response. I'm simply curious how a believer feels about this thought.

TempusVox, thank you for responding with your feelings. I think it is unfortunate that you take a simple question about an issue that confuses me and turn it into a personal attack. I'm happy to read between the defensive lines of your post and see that, to you, the circle is not square. Fair enough.

The only one who's made a judgement statement is you.



Where and when did I personally attack you? If anything while I was typing, my post was in reference to Yeshabertos post, and the VERY NATURE of this thread. I didn't say you were condemning anyone. And there was no reading between the lines. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 12:40:34 PM by TempusVox »
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Offline Tick

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2014, 12:36:48 PM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

Praying for a good outcome in your own personal circumstance would be my first thought.

But doesn't your freewill (and others' freewill) dictate the circumstance's of your life?
If you have cancer and you pray for healing for yourself it doesn't effect the outcome of someone else's freewill does it?
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Offline Chino

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2014, 12:40:12 PM »
Are you serious?

100% All those things are a result of other peoples' freewill. Are they not?


My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

Praying for a good outcome in your own personal circumstance would be my first thought.

But doesn't your freewill (and others' freewill) dictate the circumstance's of your life?
If you have cancer and you pray for healing for yourself it doesn't effect the outcome of someone else's freewill does it?

Did you have a doctor in the picture that aided in the healing process in anyway? If yes, isn't your healing due in part to his free will?

Offline Randaran

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2014, 12:41:08 PM »
Are you serious?

I think Chino is trying to say that all of those items, in some way, rely upon the actions of other people. Thus, it is impossible to pray for an outcome that does not affect someone's free will (not that I believe that we technically have any in the first place, though that is a separate discussion).

From my own personal experience with religious people, prayer seems to be an expression of one's sentiment rather than a request for specific outcomes.

Edit: Chino beat me to it.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2014, 12:46:19 PM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
IMHO, if the only prayer you ever do is prayer for a certain outcome to happen, then your prayer will generally be futile.  Because I don't think that is the primary purpose of prayer.

exactly this!

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2014, 12:47:12 PM »
Are you serious?

100% All those things are a result of other peoples' freewill. Are they not?
They are a result of things that are out of control of the praying individual.  And to use Tick's example, praying for healing from cancer is not an imposition on the doctor's free will.  It is also the doctor's will to heal the cancer.  So I don't understand your assertion.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2014, 12:47:30 PM »
For the Christian, praying is supposed to be like breathing, easier to do than to not do. We pray for a variety of reasons. For one thing, prayer is a form of serving God (Luke 2:36-38) and obeying Him. We pray because God commands us to pray (Philippians 4:6-7). Prayer is exemplified for us by Christ and the early church (Mark 1:35; Acts 1:14; 2:42; 3:1; 4:23-31; 6:4; 13:1-3). If Jesus thought it was worthwhile to pray, we should also. If He needed to pray to remain in the Fatherís will, how much more do we need to pray?

Another reason to pray is that God intends prayer to be the means of obtaining His solutions in a number of situations. We pray in preparation for major decisions (Luke 6:12-13); to overcome demonic barriers (Matthew 17:14-21); to gather workers for the spiritual harvest (Luke 10:2); to gain strength to overcome temptation (Matthew 26:41); and to obtain the means of strengthening others spiritually (Ephesians 6:18-19).

We also come to God with our specific requests, and we have God's promise that our prayers are not in vain, even if we do not receive specifically what we asked for (Matthew 6:6; Romans 8:26-27). He has promised that when we ask for things that are in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask for (1 John 5:14-15). Sometimes He delays His answers according to His wisdom and for our benefit. In these situations, we are to be diligent and persistent in prayer (Matthew 7:7; Luke 18:1-8). Prayer should not be seen as our means of getting God to do our will on earth, but rather as a means of getting God's will done on earth. Godís wisdom far exceeds our own.

For situations in which we do not know God's will specifically, prayer is a means of discerning His will. If the Syrian woman with the demon-influenced daughter had not prayed to Christ, her daughter would not have been made whole (Mark 7:26-30). If the blind man outside Jericho had not called out to Christ, he would have remained blind (Luke 18:35-43). God has said that we often go without because we do not ask (James 4:2). In one sense, prayer is like sharing the gospel with people. We do not know who will respond to the message of the gospel until we share it. In the same way, we will never see the results of answered prayer unless we pray.

A lack of prayer demonstrates a lack of faith and a lack of trust in Godís Word. We pray to demonstrate our faith in God, that He will do as He has promised in His Word and bless our lives abundantly more than we could ask or hope for (Ephesians 3:20). Prayer is our primary means of seeing God work in others' lives. Because it is our means of ďplugging intoĒ God's power, it is our means of defeating Satan and his army that we are powerless to overcome by ourselves. Therefore, prayer helps guide us before God's throne, where we have a high priest in heaven who can identify with all that we go through (Hebrews 4:15-16). We have His promise that the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much (James 5:16-18).

Of course there are other non-religious even reasons why people pray. Spiritual reflection and meditation come to mind. But generally, there are many other reasons people pray each day at least from a Christian perspective.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 12:58:41 PM by TempusVox »
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2014, 12:50:25 PM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

I personally wouldn't agree with an absolute statement that God will not intervene over someones free will.  A quick reading of Romans 9 would open the door of possibility.  I would say he generally does not, but he certainly can.  At best, he uses circumstances to persuade those whose will is in need of intervention, and I pray for that because we care about the people we are praying for.  Of course, I ask God to do what is best since I have no earthly idea what is best.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2014, 01:07:40 PM »
Some may say, if we humans have no earthly idea what is best, then praying is futile, as god will do what is best regardless.
I think the idea of prayer as communication makes more sense than as a means of asking for something.
But he do have cell phones now so......just sayin...... ;)
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2014, 01:24:43 PM »
Are you serious?

100% All those things are a result of other peoples' freewill. Are they not?
They are a result of things that are out of control of the praying individual.  And to use Tick's example, praying for healing from cancer is not an imposition on the doctor's free will.  It is also the doctor's will to heal the cancer.  So I don't understand your assertion.

But it is acted upon by the doctor's actions/circumstances/free will, is possibly what he was geting at.

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2014, 01:25:08 PM »
My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

I personally wouldn't agree with an absolute statement that God will not intervene over someones free will.  A quick reading of Romans 9 would open the door of possibility.  I would say he generally does not, but he certainly can.  At best, he uses circumstances to persuade those whose will is in need of intervention, and I pray for that because we care about the people we are praying for.  Of course, I ask God to do what is best since I have no earthly idea what is best.
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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2014, 01:32:47 PM »
Some may say, if we humans have no earthly idea what is best, then praying is futile, as god will do what is best regardless.
I think the idea of prayer as communication makes more sense than as a means of asking for something.
But he do have cell phones now so......just sayin...... ;)

I once heard my granddaughter's prayer of, "Dear God, leave a message after the 'beeeeeeeeeeep'"

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2014, 01:36:51 PM »
Are you serious?

100% All those things are a result of other peoples' freewill. Are they not?
They are a result of things that are out of control of the praying individual.  And to use Tick's example, praying for healing from cancer is not an imposition on the doctor's free will.  It is also the doctor's will to heal the cancer.  So I don't understand your assertion.

But it is acted upon by the doctor's actions/circumstances/free will, is possibly what he was geting at.
Here is how I look at something like this:

In a surgery, even if the surgeon performs it to the best of his ability, shit can still happen.

In essence, the prayer to God in this instance is a request for the surgeon to perform at the best of his ability, and for shit not to happen.
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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2014, 02:57:47 PM »
Are you serious?

100% All those things are a result of other peoples' freewill. Are they not?
They are a result of things that are out of control of the praying individual.  And to use Tick's example, praying for healing from cancer is not an imposition on the doctor's free will.  It is also the doctor's will to heal the cancer.  So I don't understand your assertion.

But it is acted upon by the doctor's actions/circumstances/free will, is possibly what he was geting at.
Here is how I look at something like this:

In a surgery, even if the surgeon performs it to the best of his ability, shit can still happen.

In essence, the prayer to God in this instance is a request for the surgeon to perform at the best of his ability, and for shit not to happen.

And when shit doesn't happen, who are you giving credit to?

Offline Ħ

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2014, 03:18:02 PM »
Here's a thought: some think that there are these subjunctive conditionals called "counterfactuals of freedom". They govern what people would freely choose in whatever situation they find themselves. Possibly, God (in his omniscience) knows these counterfactuals of freedom and places individuals in situations where they freely choose actions that achieve God's ends. In this way, God could answer prayers by using people without violating their free will.

Or God could just miraculously intervene over natural law. *shrugs*

Or God could do nothing. Maybe answering a given prayer turns out to be bad in the long run.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2014, 04:24:45 PM »
it's all very personal and very subjective, I realize, but some of you are making this a lot more literal and a lot more "cause and effect" than it often is.   

I can only speak for myself, but I have rarely prayed for "that lottery number to come in".   I have rarely prayed to "make that field goal".   But I have prayed for the sum accumulation of that "third party free will" to result in something that led to peace and love for me or my loved ones.    I have prayed for forgiveness, and I have given thanks (which is mostly what I pray for).  For me, it is less a "thanks for giving me that material gain" as it is acknowledgement of his presence either in passive or active form.   I am not naÔve; I understand that in many ways, prayer is perhaps as much a form of finding inner peace as it is any overt external expression to a third party. 

I don't feel like prayer is akin to asking for a Big Mac at McDonald's, and respectfully, I don't feel like prayer is necessarily amenable to easy answers, even if I implied that with my analogy.

I also don't feel like the subject of prayer is the best or easiest way of showing anything that might make an unbeliever believe.  I can see it working the other way around (though I have issues with that).  Again, only for me, it is far more a personal mode of expression for myself and not something I would use as proof or evidence of a god or god's intervention. 

Offline Chino

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2014, 04:30:35 PM »
it's all very personal and very subjective, I realize, but some of you are making this a lot more literal and a lot more "cause and effect" than it often is.   

Every single thing that has ever happened, literally, has been an effect of some cause.

Offline Tick

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2014, 04:34:19 PM »
Are you serious?

100% All those things are a result of other peoples' freewill. Are they not?


My feeling is this...God is all knowing but, God is not a puppet master sitting up high pulling strings. We are thankfully given a freewill and with that comes good choices and unfortunately evil. If God was to thwart all evil doing we would have no freewill.

So does this mean praying is futile?
No. It depends on what you are praying for.

If you are praying for God to intervene over someones freewill, then yes your prayers are futile.

I'm not baiting. I'm genuinely curious. I'm having trouble thinking of something that you could pray for that in some way wouldn't interfere with at least one person's free will (or just completely ignore the laws of physics as we know them in the non-spiritual world). Can you give me an example?

Praying for a good outcome in your own personal circumstance would be my first thought.

But doesn't your freewill (and others' freewill) dictate the circumstance's of your life?
If you have cancer and you pray for healing for yourself it doesn't effect the outcome of someone else's freewill does it?

Did you have a doctor in the picture that aided in the healing process in anyway? If yes, isn't your healing due in part to his free will?
Yes it is, but who's to say God didn't bless the doctor to be able to heal you through your prayer?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2014, 04:53:21 PM »
it's all very personal and very subjective, I realize, but some of you are making this a lot more literal and a lot more "cause and effect" than it often is.   

Every single thing that has ever happened, literally, has been an effect of some cause.

True, but not every "cause" has led to every "effect". And more importantly, we are not always able to specifically isolate each and every specific cause (and the extent of it's involvement) for every effect.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2014, 05:50:35 PM »
True, but not every "cause" has led to every "effect".

Multiverse?
 ;)
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Offline DerekTheater

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2014, 11:40:47 PM »
I was a Christian until I was 13. It was Ayn Rand and Rush that helped me become an atheist. Geeky, I know.

I believe in virtually nothing supernatural or spiritual.


Offline Chino

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2014, 05:53:03 AM »
it's all very personal and very subjective, I realize, but some of you are making this a lot more literal and a lot more "cause and effect" than it often is.   

Every single thing that has ever happened, literally, has been an effect of some cause.

True, but not every "cause" has led to every "effect". And more importantly, we are not always able to specifically isolate each and every specific cause (and the extent of it's involvement) for every effect.

Every cause has had an effect. You absolutley could isolate every single cause and its effect. They may seem non-existent to you, but the laws of physics say otherwise.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2014, 06:50:29 AM »
And when shit doesn't happen, who are you giving credit to?
I give credit to the surgeon, and I say a prayer of thanksgiving.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2014, 08:05:46 AM »

Every cause has had an effect. You absolutley could isolate every single cause and its effect. They may seem non-existent to you, but the laws of physics say otherwise.

"Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future."

I agree every cause has an effect; I wasn't clear with the follow up: I don't doubt that in a perfect world with infinite resources (time, money, equipment) we could isolate many more causes and their specific effects than we do now, but even then, there is an element of degree and predictability.  I would suggest that perhaps in this context, prayer is less about a binary change from 0 to 1 - which is kind of where I see your deterministic look at this coming from - but rather a subtle change in initial conditions, or a selection of differing initial conditions where there is a choice.

Offline Tick

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2014, 08:23:26 AM »
And when shit doesn't happen, who are you giving credit to?
I give credit to the surgeon, and I say a prayer of thanksgiving.
Maybe the surgeon spent his or her morning in prayer? Maybe those prayers were answered?
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2014, 08:25:11 AM »
And when shit doesn't happen, who are you giving credit to?
I give credit to the surgeon, and I say a prayer of thanksgiving.
Maybe the surgeon spent his or her morning in prayer? Maybe those prayers were answered?

Next time I have surgery, I will assemble a Religious Dream Team for the procedure to make sure I cover all my bases.
Each person in the OR will subscribe to a different faith, including Agnostic and Atheist.
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