Author Topic: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!  (Read 7263 times)

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Offline Tick

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #140 on: October 28, 2014, 03:06:06 PM »
My only knowledge of Ouija boards has been third person anecdotes.  Based on that alone, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
However, since I believe there is a spiritual world, I certainly believe that there is the potential for those forces to interact when they are being sought out.
I have witnessed black magic personally, and so am open to the realm of possibility. 
If someone asked my opinion whether they should buy an Ouija board or not (as I have been asked in the past), I have urged them to not play with them.  However, I also recognize that they are often used as a "toy" and are not necessarily evil.
I would be interested in hearing about you witnessing Black magic.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #141 on: October 28, 2014, 03:18:26 PM »
Me too.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #142 on: October 28, 2014, 04:53:02 PM »
Well, like anything, there could potentially be a reasonable explanation for it.  If there is, I don't know what it is.  All I can say for sure is that the credit was given to black magic.
The first was when I was temporarily involved in a coven (almost 30y ago) and we were gathered around fire in a dark room with a pentagram on the floor (where the fire was) and the fire was put out with a waving of the hand (as if it was a gas grill and you turned off the gas).
Other ones, which were in a normal context, were knowing when the phone was about to ring (back in the day of turn dial phones) and there were times where I would see him through his bedroom window asleep and when I would walk around to the door to knock, he would already have it open and waiting for me.
These happened a number of times.

Offline Ħ

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #143 on: October 28, 2014, 06:15:40 PM »
I don't know about Ouija boards, but caution makes perfect sense. If evil spirits exist, then there is good reason to avoid messing with that stuff. And the existence of evil spirits is entailed by Christianity, so if you think Christianity is true (*insert your reason here*), you ought to expect spiritual agency to be a causal power in the world.

In addition, there are too many intelligent, respectable people who have testimonies of encounters with spirits. I have a distinguished professor of philosophy with a biochemistry background - just not the sort to make things up - who has encountered angels. I have a group of philosophically analytic friends whose household was haunted for two weeks before they discovered a bunch of voodoo stuff in their garage, who each have corroborating stories and mental states that could not have been contrived either intentionally or subconsciously. And on DTF, Yeshua4 and TempusVox are no dummies. (Not sure about you, Tick. ;)) Testimonial evidence is brushed aside without a thought, but wrongly so. Testimonial evidence is some of the best evidence you can muster. I'm sure the lawyers here can testify to that.

You can reject spirit beings, but you shouldn't ridicule or demean those who believe. They can and often do have good reason for believing what they believe. Yes, you can offer naturalistic explanations and make the data fit your anti-supernatural worldview, but that doesn't mean they are the best explanations. You always have an "out" and can explain away anything if you try hard enough. But these naturalistic theories are often small-minded and ad hoc next to theories that are at least open to the possibility of a non-physical realm.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #144 on: October 28, 2014, 06:30:04 PM »
But these naturalistic theories are often small-minded and ad hoc next to theories that are at least open to the possibility of a non-physical realm.

I would say that naturalistic theories are no more or less inherently "ad hoc" or "small-minded" than those theories with super-natural explanations.  No one is saying that one who has a naturalistic theory did not consider a supernatural one.  Perhaps they examined the evidence of both and made their decision.

As an example, I simply have never personally seen any evidence the ouija board is a portal to the spirit world.  I have also never been told that it was by anyone I give any credibility to.  But I have played the board game myself many times, and found it to be an inanimate object created for kids entertainment.  All of my experiences and observations led me to my conclusions.

Will experiences of others lead to differing conclusions?  Of course.  But I do not think one is inherently more "ad hoc" or "small-minded" than another.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 06:38:37 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #145 on: October 28, 2014, 07:47:22 PM »
But I have played the board game myself many times, and found it to be an inanimate object created for kids entertainment.  All of my experiences and observations led me to my conclusions.

That's what the demons want you to believe.  :omg:  :biggrin:





Come on...that was funny.  :lol
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #146 on: October 28, 2014, 07:56:13 PM »
But I have played the board game myself many times, and found it to be an inanimate object created for kids entertainment.  All of my experiences and observations led me to my conclusions.

That's what the demons want you to believe.  :omg:  :biggrin:





Come on...that was funny.  :lol

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Offline Zook

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #147 on: October 28, 2014, 08:01:29 PM »
I think we should settle this by having a Ouija Board battle.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #148 on: October 28, 2014, 08:04:39 PM »
I think we should settle this by having a Ouija Board battle.

Agreed.  I will battle TV, and we will each use the ouija board as we see its true purpose.  Me as a board game, and him as a spirit portal.
I will be stabbing him in the eye with the corner of the pointer while he tries to summon Biggie Smalls....Biggie Smalls...Biggie Smalls....

LOL.  I kid.  I kid.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #149 on: October 28, 2014, 10:19:26 PM »
But these naturalistic theories are often small-minded and ad hoc next to theories that are at least open to the possibility of a non-physical realm.

I would say that naturalistic theories are no more or less inherently "ad hoc" or "small-minded" than those theories with super-natural explanations.  No one is saying that one who has a naturalistic theory did not consider a supernatural one.  Perhaps they examined the evidence of both and made their decision.

As an example, I simply have never personally seen any evidence the ouija board is a portal to the spirit world.  I have also never been told that it was by anyone I give any credibility to.  But I have played the board game myself many times, and found it to be an inanimate object created for kids entertainment.  All of my experiences and observations led me to my conclusions.

Will experiences of others lead to differing conclusions?  Of course.  But I do not think one is inherently more "ad hoc" or "small-minded" than another.
OK, that's fair. So, possibly, in your situation with the evidence that you have available to you, you justifiably believe that there is nothing supernatural going on. But would you permit that others who have a different set of evidence available to them may be rational in drawing different conclusions?

Also, I am not saying that all naturalistic explanations are inherently ad hoc or small-minded. I'm simply talking about the ones that are so committed to the nonexistence of the supernatural from the outset of their investigation that they preclude supernatural entities no matter what. These motivations will typically lead to ad hoc scrambling and "explaining away" phenomena (no matter how implausible the explanation). They're forced to make the data fit their preconceived world view, rather than simply being open to what's out there.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #150 on: October 29, 2014, 04:33:52 AM »

OK, that's fair. So, possibly, in your situation with the evidence that you have available to you, you justifiably believe that there is nothing supernatural going on. But would you permit that others who have a different set of evidence available to them may be rational in drawing different conclusions?

If someone has a different set of evidence, that someone can come to a different conclusion.  Others may not give that evidence any weight and disagree with that conclusion.  Neither position is wrong.


Also, I am not saying that all naturalistic explanations are inherently ad hoc or small-minded. I'm simply talking about the ones that are so committed to the nonexistence of the supernatural from the outset of their investigation that they preclude supernatural entities no matter what. These motivations will typically lead to ad hoc scrambling and "explaining away" phenomena (no matter how implausible the explanation). They're forced to make the data fit their preconceived world view, rather than simply being open to what's out there.

Natualistic explanations that eliminate supernatural explanations before examination, are just as small minded and ad hoc as those supernatural explanations that eliminate the naturalistic in the same manner.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 07:28:43 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline Tick

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #151 on: October 29, 2014, 06:37:19 AM »
I don't know about Ouija boards, but caution makes perfect sense. If evil spirits exist, then there is good reason to avoid messing with that stuff. And the existence of evil spirits is entailed by Christianity, so if you think Christianity is true (*insert your reason here*), you ought to expect spiritual agency to be a causal power in the world.

In addition, there are too many intelligent, respectable people who have testimonies of encounters with spirits. I have a distinguished professor of philosophy with a biochemistry background - just not the sort to make things up - who has encountered angels. I have a group of philosophically analytic friends whose household was haunted for two weeks before they discovered a bunch of voodoo stuff in their garage, who each have corroborating stories and mental states that could not have been contrived either intentionally or subconsciously. And on DTF, Yeshua4 and TempusVox are no dummies. (Not sure about you, Tick. ;)) Testimonial evidence is brushed aside without a thought, but wrongly so. Testimonial evidence is some of the best evidence you can muster. I'm sure the lawyers here can testify to that.

You can reject spirit beings, but you shouldn't ridicule or demean those who believe. They can and often do have good reason for believing what they believe. Yes, you can offer naturalistic explanations and make the data fit your anti-supernatural worldview, but that doesn't mean they are the best explanations. You always have an "out" and can explain away anything if you try hard enough. But these naturalistic theories are often small-minded and ad hoc next to theories that are at least open to the possibility of a non-physical realm.
Good post...and thanks for the dig!
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #152 on: October 29, 2014, 11:08:44 AM »
Tick I believe he was teasing you. Nothing more.
You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
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Offline Tick

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #153 on: October 29, 2014, 11:16:33 AM »
Tick I believe he was teasing you. Nothing more.
I know.
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Offline Randaran

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #154 on: October 29, 2014, 02:04:30 PM »
Testimonial evidence is brushed aside without a thought, but wrongly so. Testimonial evidence is some of the best evidence you can muster. I'm sure the lawyers here can testify to that.

Though we hold opposite positions on the supernatural, I agree with all of your post except for this. Unless I am forgetting a third, the two main types of evidence are testimonial and forensic. Of the two, testimonies are nowhere near as reliable as forensic evidence. So, it is a bit unfair to call it "some of the best evidence you can muster." Testimonial evidence certainly has its uses, but it alone is not sufficient support for extraordinary claims such as those involving the supernatural.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #155 on: October 30, 2014, 10:33:17 AM »
Testimonial evidence is brushed aside without a thought, but wrongly so. Testimonial evidence is some of the best evidence you can muster. I'm sure the lawyers here can testify to that.

Though we hold opposite positions on the supernatural, I agree with all of your post except for this. Unless I am forgetting a third, the two main types of evidence are testimonial and forensic. Of the two, testimonies are nowhere near as reliable as forensic evidence. So, it is a bit unfair to call it "some of the best evidence you can muster." Testimonial evidence certainly has its uses, but it alone is not sufficient support for extraordinary claims such as those involving the supernatural.

"Reliable" and "weighty" are two different things.   Assuming that the witness himself is credible, people (including juries) tend to believe the substance of witness claims to a higher degree than their accuracy would warrant, whereas forensic evidence STILL has it's critics. 

Offline eric42434224

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Re: The Ouija Board v. Halloween discussion fun!
« Reply #156 on: October 30, 2014, 05:49:21 PM »
Testimonial evidence is brushed aside without a thought, but wrongly so. Testimonial evidence is some of the best evidence you can muster. I'm sure the lawyers here can testify to that.

Though we hold opposite positions on the supernatural, I agree with all of your post except for this. Unless I am forgetting a third, the two main types of evidence are testimonial and forensic. Of the two, testimonies are nowhere near as reliable as forensic evidence. So, it is a bit unfair to call it "some of the best evidence you can muster." Testimonial evidence certainly has its uses, but it alone is not sufficient support for extraordinary claims such as those involving the supernatural.

"Reliable" and "weighty" are two different things.   Assuming that the witness himself is credible, people (including juries) tend to believe the substance of witness claims to a higher degree than their accuracy would warrant, whereas forensic evidence STILL has it's critics.

Believing testimony more than one should has no bearing on its actual accuracy, nor does the fact the forensic evidence having critics affect its accuracy. 
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