Mangini Revolutions!

[OpenYourEyes311]

MM does not do that. He's got a different approach. MP was creating and adding in spite of the other instruments. MM, on the other hand, seems to follow the other instruments. And he is great doing it!

I agree with this, but I gotta say that really it's personal preference. I wouldn't say I like Mangini's approach better, but it's really interesting to hear sometimes when he follows the other instruments. A great example of this is the end of the second movement in False Awakening Suite, when the drums do a triplet pattern following the guitar and keys. That sounds so cool!

[PROGdrummer]

I'm a little confused. Exactly which parts of DT12 and ADTOE are out of Portnoy's league?

[erwinrafael]

Back to Mangini, this is how I see it... I might be wrong but that's how I feel it...

Mangini is incredible! Maybe, in technical terms, the best drummer in the world. But Portnoy sounds more musical and melodic to me. While Mangini doubles the guitar and the other instruments and makes some moves in the speed of light, Portnoy thing (in the good days) was to add melodic phrases to the songs.

Take, for example, Under a Glass Moon (0:26-0:40), Metropolis pt. 1 (0:40-1:00), 6:00 (0:00-0:10), Innocence Faded (0:22-0:50), The Dark Eternal Night (0:09-0:25) and so on...
Drum phrases are there adding to the melodic main line; lines over lines given by the other instruments!

MM does not do that. He's got a different approach. MP was creating and adding in spite of the other instruments. MM, on the other hand, seems to follow the other instruments. And he is great doing it!

Sometimes I picture him looking at Petrucci and delivering a challenge: "Let's see who is faster?" 

I somehow agree with this, but I would bring in two qualifications.

First, I think you have to qualify what "melodic" means. I guess you mean that MP creates a rhythmic pattern that is distinct from the other instruments, and I agree, MP does that a lot more than MM. But I would argue that MM is more melodic, in that I define playing a melody as a combination of playing with both rhythm and pitch in mind. MP does rhythmic patterns, but not really melodic patterns. MM, on the other hand, is very melodic in that he is conscious not just with the rhythm, but also with the pitch and the notes. For example, his intro to Breaking All Illusions very melodically sings using the cannon drums to approximate the intro riff of the song. Another example is his drum roll in the transition to the first stanza of The Enemy Inside where he played the toms melodically to approximate the melody of the guitar riff. There is also this part in TLG, the drum roll in 2:10-2:12 where you can distinctly hear drum rolls that are melodically singing.

His cymbals work is also very melodic, shifting hihats and rides depending on whether the section of the song goes up or down the scale. Thankfully it's very easy to hear because of the stereo set-up of the recording of his drums, so you can hear when he is hitting the left or right side of his drum kit, which could guide you to whether he is using cymbals with higher or lower frequencies. One of my favorite melodic cymbal playing by MM is his cymbal work in the instrumental section of The Bigger Picture. Listen to how he composed the cymbals, especially in contrasting the second half of the instrumental when the guitar harmonies kick in.

So I would say that MM is actually more melodic in his playing than MP. At least in the traditional musical sense that melody means playing both rhythm and pitch.

Second qualification is about MM "following" the other instruments. "Following" implies a very passive participation. I would say that MM's drum patterns are generally more in sync with what the other instruments are playing compared to MP, but it is not necessarily following. How can we be sure if it is not the other instruments that followed MM's drum patterns in some parts of the songs? I have said this in other threads, I suspect there are sections of their songs where MM might have taken the lead and the others followed. One is the "Mothers for their children..." part in Illumination Theory. The music in that section is so attuned to how MM would divide a rhythmic section based on his Rhythm Knowledge system that it's hard to imagine that he is not the one who lead in that section (based on his YT vid, it's 3-3-4-2, 3-3-4-3). Another part is the instrumental section of Surrender to Reason. MM is the one anchoring that instrumental, so I don't think he's the one who "followed" the other instruments in that section. I would say that MM plays more in sync with the other members, but not necessarily that he "follows" the other instruments.

[The Stray Seed]

Great post Erwin!!! I totally agree with what you say!! =D

[sylvinception]

It's like comparing Ritchie Blackmore to Steve Vai. Certainly, RB can't play like SV, but that doesn't deny the fact that he is one of the best guitar players ever. Technique is a must, but style goes a long way.

Vai ==>> Portnoy
Blackmore == >> Mangini ??

Or the opposite ??

[tiagodon]

Great contribution to our discussion, Erwin. But letīs check if we are talking about the same thing.

By “melody” I mean a linear sucession of musical tones that whoever listens perceives as a single entity. Letīs take, for example, the intro of Under a Glass Moon. The guitar starts with a melodic line. Then drums kick in with another melodic line. If you silence the guitar, the drum line makes sense for itself, itīs a single entity. If you take The Enemy Inside intro, the drum is not making melody. If you silence the guitar, the drums donīt make sense by itself, it asks for the presence of the other instrument.
You mentioned the intro of Breaking All Illusions. Thatīs not making melody in this sense. When you mentioned TLG (2:10-2:12), yes, thatīs what Iīm talking about.

So, in that sense, what I said was: making melody is more MP style, not MMīs.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't see either one of those as melodic, and neither one makes much sense for itself.

[BlobVanDam]

Mangini has certainly showed that he factors in melody when composing his drum parts, but neither MM or MP are what I'd call melodic drummers, because drums are primarily a percussive instrument.

[tiagodon]

"How can we be sure if it is not the other instruments that followed MM's drum patterns in some parts of the songs? I have said this in other threads, I suspect there are sections of their songs where MM might have taken the lead and the others followed. One is the "Mothers for their children..." part in Illumination Theory. The music in that section is so attuned to how MM would divide a rhythmic section based on his Rhythm Knowledge system that it's hard to imagine that he is not the one who lead in that section (based on his YT vid, it's 3-3-4-2, 3-3-4-3). Another part is the instrumental section of Surrender to Reason. MM is the one anchoring that instrumental, so I don't think he's the one who "followed" the other instruments in that section. I would say that MM plays more in sync with the other members, but not necessarily that he "follows" the other instruments."


Yes, this is quite interesting!
Considering MM's abilities, I think DT could take their music to another level! A very technical, syncopatic and speedy prog in which Mangini would take the lead in many moments.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Mangini has certainly showed that he factors in melody when composing his drum parts, but neither MM or MP are what I'd call melodic drummers, because drums are primarily a percussive instrument.

I don't think that's fair to drummers. They have as much of an impact on melody as the rest of the band does even when playing a more standard drum beat because the drums dictate the feel and can change where the accents are on the main melody line. Take the intro to The Shattered Fortress for example. When Mike is doing the part with the toms and flams, it feels like 3/4. When he first comes in with the Max Stax, the feel suddenly shifts to 12/8. Then when he shifts the snare from the 3 to the 2 and 4 (or in this case from the 7 to the 4 and 10) changing the feel to 6/8. This also changes how the listener hears the melody because the perception of where the accented notes fall changes. With that said, I can honestly say that I lean more towards MP's drumming being melodic than I can with MM's drumming. It's personal preference and everyone's ears are different, but I can listen to Portnoy's isolated drum tracks and hear a complete song. I can't do that with Mangini's parts.

[JediKnight1969]

It's like comparing Ritchie Blackmore to Steve Vai. Certainly, RB can't play like SV, but that doesn't deny the fact that he is one of the best guitar players ever. Technique is a must, but style goes a long way.

Vai ==>> Portnoy
Blackmore == >> Mangini ??

Or the opposite ??

Quite the opposite, of course.

[Kotowboy]

Mangini has certainly showed that he factors in melody when composing his drum parts, but neither MM or MP are what I'd call melodic drummers, because drums are primarily a percussive instrument.

Terry Bozzio is the only one who comes close to being a melodic drummer.

[erwinrafael]

Great contribution to our discussion, Erwin. But letīs check if we are talking about the same thing.

By “melody” I mean a linear sucession of musical tones that whoever listens perceives as a single entity. Letīs take, for example, the intro of Under a Glass Moon. The guitar starts with a melodic line. Then drums kick in with another melodic line. If you silence the guitar, the drum line makes sense for itself, itīs a single entity. If you take The Enemy Inside intro, the drum is not making melody. If you silence the guitar, the drums donīt make sense by itself, it asks for the presence of the other instrument.
You mentioned the intro of Breaking All Illusions. Thatīs not making melody in this sense. When you mentioned TLG (2:10-2:12), yes, thatīs what Iīm talking about.

So, in that sense, what I said was: making melody is more MP style, not MMīs.

See, perceiving the Under The Glass Moon thing as MP introducing a melodic line is really a matter of musical arrangement. What MP was doing in the drums is really just the drumming of the riff that JP would do later in the guitar. They just arranged the song in such a way that MP and JM (remember that JM is also in sync with MP in this section!) would come in first with the dyagadyagadyan dyun dyan dyagadyagadyan dyugudyugu dyagadyagan. JP and KM would then do the riff that corresponds with this drumming pattern later. So was MP really being a more "melodic" drummer in this case, or did the arrangement  just call for MP and JM to come in first before JP and KM does the riff? (Also, the MP drum pattern really sounded "melodic" only because JM is playing with MP, supplying the notes. MP played bass and snare only, after all)

If you would insist that MP introduced a melodic line (still uncomfortable with calling that a melody, without notes and all) with that example, then I would say that MM does that too. In Lost Not Forgotten, MM and JM kicks in with dyagadyagan dyagadyan dyagadyagan dyagaohthisishardertotranscribethanUAGM while JP and JR are doing a different melody. Then JP later does the guitar riff that overlays the drum pattern and bass guitar riff. It's a very similar approach to UAGM, but really, it is just a matter of musical arrangement that they decided that the drums and bass would come in with the rhythmic pattern first, before the riff. If they changed the arrangement of The Enemy Inside, for example, and let the drums and the bass do the dyagadyagan dyagadyagan dyagadyagadyagadyagan dyagadyagan pattern first before JP does the riff, you would viewing that song differently. The same goes with On The Backs of Angels, Behind The Veil, etc. If they arranged these songs and let MM and JM "introduce" the patterns first before JP does the overlaying riff, you would be viewing this differently.

One thing that I noticed (not just with you tiagodon, but based on comments by others) is that people tend to forget that these drum lines that "make sense for itself' only made sense because of JM. Really. For example, those distinct drum patterns in the instrumental of Trial of Tears, they are rhythmic, but they became "melodic" because of JM.

[BlobVanDam]

Mangini has certainly showed that he factors in melody when composing his drum parts, but neither MM or MP are what I'd call melodic drummers, because drums are primarily a percussive instrument.

I don't think that's fair to drummers. They have as much of an impact on melody as the rest of the band does even when playing a more standard drum beat because the drums dictate the feel and can change where the accents are on the main melody line. Take the intro to The Shattered Fortress for example. When Mike is doing the part with the toms and flams, it feels like 3/4. When he first comes in with the Max Stax, the feel suddenly shifts to 12/8. Then when he shifts the snare from the 3 to the 2 and 4 (or in this case from the 7 to the 4 and 10) changing the feel to 6/8. This also changes how the listener hears the melody because the perception of where the accented notes fall changes. With that said, I can honestly say that I lean more towards MP's drumming being melodic than I can with MM's drumming. It's personal preference and everyone's ears are different, but I can listen to Portnoy's isolated drum tracks and hear a complete song. I can't do that with Mangini's parts.

I don't think melodic means what you think it means.
Those are all rhythmic properties. Melodic means, well, playing melodies, not playing along to melodies.

But I do prefer MP's drumming for the way his rhythms work with the band compared to how MM writes his parts. Personal preference, of course. MM just has a different approach that doesn't appeal to me as much.

[jammindude]

I was just talking about this over in the Rush album review thread...but it's relevant here.

I was always disappointed that MP expressed a dislike for (and rarely did) drum solos.   MP's solos early on (when he did do them) had a very "musical" quality about them, and did not serve to simply show off his technical skill.   I did an audio rip of of the Images and Words Live In Tokyo home video, and that drum solo is very nearly as fun to listen to as Neil Peart's now infamous YYZ solo from Exit...Stage Left.    I LOVE listening to that solo.   I'm not a drummer, but I can say that I've heard a lot of drum solos, and I think the YYZ solo and MP's solo from Ytse Jam are the only solos that I have memorized note for note.   

Most other solos (Mangini's included)...while they can be amazing...are simply not as fun to listen to on a musical level. 

It seriously broke my heart when I heard MP say for the first time that he hates drum solos.   But that Live in Tokyo solo will always stand out in my mind.   I wish that an official audio soundtrack of that video would have been released, because it blows the only officially released solo (from OIALT) completely off the map.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Mangini has certainly showed that he factors in melody when composing his drum parts, but neither MM or MP are what I'd call melodic drummers, because drums are primarily a percussive instrument.

I don't think that's fair to drummers. They have as much of an impact on melody as the rest of the band does even when playing a more standard drum beat because the drums dictate the feel and can change where the accents are on the main melody line. Take the intro to The Shattered Fortress for example. When Mike is doing the part with the toms and flams, it feels like 3/4. When he first comes in with the Max Stax, the feel suddenly shifts to 12/8. Then when he shifts the snare from the 3 to the 2 and 4 (or in this case from the 7 to the 4 and 10) changing the feel to 6/8. This also changes how the listener hears the melody because the perception of where the accented notes fall changes. With that said, I can honestly say that I lean more towards MP's drumming being melodic than I can with MM's drumming. It's personal preference and everyone's ears are different, but I can listen to Portnoy's isolated drum tracks and hear a complete song. I can't do that with Mangini's parts.

I don't think melodic means what you think it means.
Those are all rhythmic properties. Melodic means, well, playing melodies, not playing along to melodies.

But I do prefer MP's drumming for the way his rhythms work with the band compared to how MM writes his parts. Personal preference, of course. MM just has a different approach that doesn't appeal to me as much.

You may not hear it that way, but I do. Besides, that was just an example of more simple drum concepts dictating the melody. Both drummers have parts that are more intricate and can certainly be seen as somewhat melodic (Portnoy's drum part in the Constant Motion guitar solo is almost like a counter-melody to the guitar). When I was in band in high school I played saxophone. The parts for my section were mostly "fluff" which were the parts that weren't melody, harmony, or counter-melody. They were more for background. I learned the importance of all parts working together. Because of this I can't just say "that's the melody and everything else is background". I'm primarily a bassist and drums are my second instrument along with my previously mentioned saxophone experience so I basically have never been a "lead" player. You can keep the notes of a melody line the same but change the backing each time and the melody sounds changed. Take Marche Slave by Tchaikovsky for example. The main theme has four different variations based on what the rest of the band not playing the melody is doing. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I truly feel that all instruments can be melodic even at times that it isn't intended. I think Portnoy did this better than Mangini (I think that about most aspects of drumming tbh), but to say that drums can't be melodic is just wrong in my eyes.