Mangini Revolutions!

[tiagodon]

I went to see DT in the Along for the Ride Tour last week and came across my drum teacher after the show.
He was amazed by what Mangini could do and what he has actually done with the old DT songs.

He told me: "If Portnoy ever returns to the band, he won't be able to play the last album. And for the next albums, the other members of the band will have to study a little more to keep up with Mangini".

What are your thoughts on that?

[Sycsa]

Portnoy is good, way better than some people give him credit for. I think he could play at least 95% of what Mike played on the last two DT albums.

[SuperTaco]

Portnoy is good, way better than some people give him credit for. I think he could play at least 95% of what Mike played on the last two DT albums.

I agree with this. The main difference I notice is that MM does some fast one-handed stuff that MP might find challenging. Then again, perhaps I too am underestimating MP's abilities. I've seen some really insane drum solo's from him.

Time for me to go to Youtube and watch drum solo's for an hour 

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think that MP could recreate all the drum parts of the last two albums.  He could play the songs, but he couldn't duplicate all of MM's parts.  Some of them are just too technical.

But that's OK.

[erwinrafael]

I think MP may have difficulty in some parts, not because of lack of technical ability, but more of because of how MM setup his drums and how he plays it.

For example, the arrangement of the tone of MM's toms is not highest to lowest from L to R. His setup is LRLRLRLRLR. SO he can do a very fast ascending or descending roll that hits each tom only once. MP's drums are not set up that way, so he would have difficulty doing this because his arms would cross if he hits each tom only once.

The drum setup also influences their hi-hat playing. MP plays hi-hats with both hands hitting the same hi-hat. MM, his hi-hat work is usually with two hi-hats at the same time, one in his left, one in his right. That is how he played in TLG, STR, and IT (quite inaudibly, unfortunately, because of the mix). If MP does those parts, he would most likely use a single hi-hat because his drum is not set up to play two-hi-hats at the same time.

[rumborak]

I would think he would just simplify parts, like he did with Donati's parts in Apocalypse 1470.
Or even with his own parts. He was never able to play the blast beats live, so he replaced them with some hihat thing.

[JediKnight1969]

It's like comparing Ritchie Blackmore to Steve Vai. Certainly, RB can't play like SV, but that doesn't deny the fact that he is one of the best guitar players ever. Technique is a must, but style goes a long way.

[JiM-Xtreme]

MP wouldn't be able to match Mangini's parts beat for beat, but who cares. He would put his on spin on them and it would be just as awesome.

[Setlist Scotty]

I don't think that MP could recreate all the drum parts of the last two albums.  He could play the songs, but he couldn't duplicate all of MM's parts.  Some of them are just too technical.

But that's OK.

I fully agree with this. Years before he left DT, MP had stated at least once that MM, along with Virgil Donati, Marco Minnemann and Thomas Lang can all drum circles around him in terms of technique.
 
 

I would think he would just simplify parts, like he did with Donati's parts in Apocalypse 1470.
Or even with his own parts. He was never able to play the blast beats live, so he replaced them with some hihat thing.

This too. If MP were to come back, he'd do his own proximation of what MM did, but certainly he wouldn't (and in some cases) couldn't duplicate what MM did originally. But then again, MP didn't play his parts perfectly like on the album either - and not just the blast beats. He did it to change things up - he was never like Neil Peart in that he'd perfect a drum part, and from that day forward would play it exactly the same.

[TAC]

I've been listening to some boots from the '07 & '09 tours and while people say that MP got stale, he's pretty freaking incredible in these latter shows.
MP could figure it out I'm sure. Shit, we have amateurs on YouTube playing along to MM's parts, not sure why MP couldn't.

And while MM is a great live drummer, MP would also be bringing his personality to the performance. Watching MP perform live was always my favorite part if my DT fandom.

[hefdaddy42]

MP could figure it out I'm sure. Shit, we have amateurs on YouTube playing along to MM's parts, not sure why MP couldn't.

Because he doesn't practice 8 hours a day like those YouTubers.

[SystematicThought]

I don't think he ever practices.

But he seems to pick up on parts really easily.

[Podaar]

I went to see DT in the Along for the Ride Tour last week and came across my drum teacher after the show.

What are your thoughts on that?

I think your drum teacher should stand farther away.

[TheSilentHam]

MP would be able to play the new material, with his own style and ability, but close enough to the recorded parts as to not change the whole sound of the new material (unless he was trying to change it), and it would still sound like DT. 

No question that Mangini is a more technical player. For me, it is a joy to listen to him play both old and new material.  His parts, however, do sometimes sound different than the MP parts - better or worse as opinions go.  Again, it doesn't change the over sound of the old material, and it still sounds like DT.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Mike Portnoy would be able to play most of the parts perfectly if he were to come back, but there are some parts that he would have to change a little (like the "you're blinded by your hunger" part of OtBoA).
He would probably put his own spin on the parts anyway, much how MM does to the older songs.

[sfam2112]

Assuming MP would even agree to play that material at all if he were to return.

[hefdaddy42]

I went to see DT in the Along for the Ride Tour last week and came across my drum teacher after the show.

What are your thoughts on that?

I think your drum teacher should stand farther away.

lol

[jammindude]

When MP plays with DT again (I don't think he'll ever come back permanently, but I think it's inevitable that he eventually makes an appearance)...I feel pretty strongly that MP would pull a Jon Anderson and refuse to acknowledge any DT material without his input. 

Actually, I can see it going down this way...   Dream Theater plays an "evening with" show, plays a full set with Mangini, and then take intermission.   Then, when the lights go down for the second set, the intro to The Glass Prison starts up...suddenly, everyone realizes that MP is sitting behind the kit.   The crowd goes freaking crazy.    They play the 12SS with Portnoy, and then (because, in my vision, separate drum risers are being rolled on and off the stage) Mangini's kit rolls back out on the stage and DT does the encore with two drummers.   All six guys take a bow, and the whole thing is filmed for DVD release.

[TAC]

Then you woke up.

[rumborak]

Actually, I can see it going down this way...   Dream Theater plays an "evening with" show, plays a full set with Mangini, and then take intermission.   Then, when the lights go down for the second set, the intro to The Glass Prison starts up...suddenly, everyone realizes that MP is sitting behind the kit, and a dead MM next to the drum kit. MP is DT's drummer again happily ever after.

FTFMPI (fixed that for MP's imagination)

[PROGdrummer]

I think MP can do with 2 hands anything that MM can do with 1.

I mean, I know I can.
I can play the material from ADTOE and DT12 just fine, and I'm nowhere near Portnoy's level.
People do underestimate Portnoy. He's still a fantastic drummer and he does crazy fast fills just as good as Mangini.


I mean, Mangini messes up Portnoy's  complex beats all the time. He's flubbed up on Metropolis, TDOE, TDEN and other songs plenty already.

[Madman Shepherd]

Assuming MP would even agree to play that material at all if he were to return.

Or agree to enter the venue if anyone was wearing an A Dramatic Turn of Events t-shirt

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

A lot of Portnoy's fills nowadays sound pretty basic to me (of course by "basic" I'm comparing him to stuff Minnemann, Mangini or Donati eat for lunch). Fast =/= difficult. I don't wanna sound douchey by saying Portnoy's drumming is simple, 'cause it isn't, but we're talking musicians that play an instrument for a living; so I guess everything goes.

Portnoy was a great drummer in his prime, and although he's not the most technically advanced he has been one of the most "musical" drummers in the whole scene. Sadly, after Train of Thought/Octavarium I felt he was repeating himself way too much until the point that nowadays I don't get "wowed" by his drumming like I used to do 6+ years ago. Trust me, I used to worship Portnoy more than lots of my fellow DT fans (which was one substantial amount of worship  ) but it was until Systematic Chaos that I began to realize he wasn't as high as I used to put him. It requires much more than LRKKLRKK patterns to get up there with today's drum greats.

One thing is for certain, tho. He knows how to sell his image probably much better than any other of his DT ex-fellows.

[rumborak]

I would agree. MP, when he was in his prime (up to ToT), was a highly influential player. In those days he was one of the most technical drummers out there, and yet managed to create incredible musical drumming.
However, in hindsight it seems that he acquired that ability before DT, and while he still refined some aspects of it during the DT days, he was nonetheless slowly emptying the bag of tricks he amassed during his youth and college days.
These days, as others have pointed out, MP's drumming is seen as standard. Not bad by any means, but also not top notch.

[Sycsa]

Actually, I can see it going down this way...   Dream Theater plays an "evening with" show, plays a full set with Mangini, and then take intermission.   Then, when the lights go down for the second set, the intro to The Glass Prison starts up...suddenly, everyone realizes that MP is sitting behind the kit.   The crowd goes freaking crazy.    They play the 12SS with Portnoy, and then (because, in my vision, separate drum risers are being rolled on and off the stage) Mangini's kit rolls back out on the stage and DT does the encore with two drummers.   All six guys take a bow, and the whole thing is filmed for DVD release.

That's pretty much exactly the way I imagined it. Only difference, besides the 12SS, they would play ACOS as well with MP, and the encore would feature Metropolis and a drum off between the two Mikes.

[tiagodon]

I would agree. MP, when he was in his prime (up to ToT), was a highly influential player. In those days he was one of the most technical drummers out there, and yet managed to create incredible musical drumming.
However, in hindsight it seems that he acquired that ability before DT, and while he still refined some aspects of it during the DT days, he was nonetheless slowly emptying the bag of tricks he amassed during his youth and college days.
These days, as others have pointed out, MP's drumming is seen as standard. Not bad by any means, but also not top notch.

Maybe that's why he asked for a break. Maybe he needed fresh air and a time to rebuild himself.
I think the job he did in Avenged Sevenfold's Nightmare album pretty amazing!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That's not really a Portnoy brainchild. He just played over The Rev's original parts, with a couple of new stuff here and there.

[TheCountOfNYC]

That's not really a Portnoy brainchild. He just played over The Rev's original parts, with a couple of new stuff here and there.

He did that for the most part, but there are some sections on that album that feel like the band let Mike be Mike. Listen to the soft part in Save Me before the last chorus. That is not a James Sullivan drum part interpreted. That is signature Mike Portnoy.

[SystematicThought]

Maybe that's why he asked for a break. Maybe he needed fresh air and a time to rebuild himself.
I think the job he did in Avenged Sevenfold's Nightmare album pretty amazing!

I don't think that's what he wanted time off for--With those five years, I think he would have done exactly what he's doing now. Playing with everyone and anyone that he can.

[hefdaddy42]

Maybe that's why he asked for a break. Maybe he needed fresh air and a time to rebuild himself.
I think the job he did in Avenged Sevenfold's Nightmare album pretty amazing!

I don't think that's what he wanted time off for--With those five years, I think he would have done exactly what he's doing now. Playing with everyone and anyone that he can.

Exactly, he didn't want a 5-year break from music, he wanted a 5-year break from DT.

[tiagodon]

Back to Mangini, this is how I see it... I might be wrong but that's how I feel it...

Mangini is incredible! Maybe, in technical terms, the best drummer in the world. But Portnoy sounds more musical and melodic to me. While Mangini doubles the guitar and the other instruments and makes some moves in the speed of light, Portnoy thing (in the good days) was to add melodic phrases to the songs.

Take, for example, Under a Glass Moon (0:26-0:40), Metropolis pt. 1 (0:40-1:00), 6:00 (0:00-0:10), Innocence Faded (0:22-0:50), The Dark Eternal Night (0:09-0:25) and so on...
Drum phrases are there adding to the melodic main line; lines over lines given by the other instruments!

MM does not do that. He's got a different approach. MP was creating and adding in spite of the other instruments. MM, on the other hand, seems to follow the other instruments. And he is great doing it!

Sometimes I picture him looking at Petrucci and delivering a challenge: "Let's see who is faster?" 

[Podaar]

Back to Mangini, this is how I see it... I might be wrong but that's how I feel it...

Mangini is incredible! Maybe, in technical terms, the best drummer in the world. But Portnoy sounds more musical and melodic to me. While Mangini doubles the guitar and the other instruments and makes some moves in the speed of light, Portnoy thing (in the good days) was to add melodic phrases to the songs.

Take, for example, Under a Glass Moon (0:26-0:40), Metropolis pt. 1 (0:40-1:00), 6:00 (0:00-0:10), Innocence Faded (0:22-0:50), The Dark Eternal Night (0:09-0:25) and so on...
Drum phrases are there adding to the melodic main line; lines over lines given by the other instruments!

MM does not do that. He's got a different approach. MP was creating and adding in spite of the other instruments. MM, on the other hand, seems to follow the other instruments. And he is great doing it!

Sometimes I picture him looking at Petrucci and delivering a challenge: "Let's see who is faster?" 

I don't necessarily agree with everything you say here but I definitely want to congratulate you on the tone of and the relevant, cogent points you made in this post.

[425]

Agreed. That was perhaps the best description I've heard of why I tend to prefer Portnoy's drumming (though Mangini is of course quite excellent).

[JiM-Xtreme]

 

[tiagodon]

Thank you, guys!