Author Topic: A Nightmare to Remember  (Read 10593 times)

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Offline Jaq

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2014, 09:53:18 AM »
It's clear that the intent of the section MP sang and the blast beats was to invoke death metal sounds, whether or not he actually growled them. Which reminds me of a conversation down in general chat about the death metal vocals on Haken's Aquarius, where someone said they wouldn't mind the death metal vocals if they were particularly good. That's the problem with ANTR: the death metal influenced sections simply aren't very good.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2014, 09:59:13 AM »
Any lyrical section meant to be dark and sound demonic ending with "everyone survived" is just...a bit ironic.

Not when taken in the context of the rest of the lyrics it isn't.
I have no idea how you could say such a thing.

I can say such a thing because the lyrics and tone make perfect sense, and anyone who simply focuses on the last line or two isn't paying attention to why that line is there and how its role in that section is quite different than what the line in isolation would otherwise imply.
I'm not focusing on the last line or two.  I'm talking about that entire section.

But whatever. If it works for you, it works for you.  But it obviously doesn't work for a lot of people.
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2014, 10:11:12 AM »
And another thing..on MP's Score Commentary, during the Innocence Faded outro, he talks about how this section is very Journeyish and that DT fans would never let them get away with playing a section like that again.
Now I thought that outro was universally loved, yet somehow MP thought DT would rather hear something like the Night After Night section??

Well, MP was basically catering to the newest, youngest members of the fan base who dabbled in music with harsh vocals. Pretty blatantly a sell-out on his part.

Offline JiM-Xtreme

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2014, 11:41:30 AM »
Love this song to bits, MP vocals and all. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

Don't get what's the big deal about that section anyway. Whether you like it or not, it's over in about 20 seconds.

Same deal for the outro - I actually think it builds up to a really satisfying climax, and the blastbeat does contribute to that.

Having said that, my only issue with the entire song is in the MP vocal section, funnily enough... but it's not the roar. It's that random "ugh" he does when the drums stop. Seriously, it sounds like something Mike did while messing around in the studio that they forgot to edit out. Still, it's so insignificant in the grand scheme things it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the song in the slightest.

Offline bosk1

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2014, 11:54:47 AM »
Same deal for the outro - I actually think it builds up to a really satisfying climax, and the blastbeat does contribute to that.

It does, BUT (and I'm not trying to be overly critical) the problem I have with it is that he is a bit slow and behind the beat, so it sounds off.  I like that he tried a blast beat there.  I just don't like the execution of it.
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Offline Zook

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2014, 11:59:34 AM »
It's clear that the intent of the section MP sang and the blast beats was to invoke death metal sounds, whether or not he actually growled them. Which reminds me of a conversation down in general chat about the death metal vocals on Haken's Aquarius, where someone said they wouldn't mind the death metal vocals if they were particularly good. That's the problem with ANTR: the death metal influenced sections simply aren't very good.

It doesn't matter if those growls were good or not. When the mermaid is the one growling, it's ridiculously silly no matter what.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2014, 06:22:09 PM »
And another thing..on MP's Score Commentary, during the Innocence Faded outro, he talks about how this section is very Journeyish and that DT fans would never let them get away with playing a section like that again.
Now I thought that outro was universally loved, yet somehow MP thought DT would rather hear something like the Night After Night section??

Well, MP was basically catering to the newest, youngest members of the fan base who dabbled in music with harsh vocals. Pretty blatantly a sell-out on his part.

Not in the slightest. He was bringing in an influence from his own current musical interests. You don't have to be a young or new fan to enjoy harsh vocals, and that influence about as far from selling out as you can get anyway. Given how he knew the fans would react to real growls, and how it was changed, I think he was trying to find a middle ground between evolving as a band, and maintaining DT's core sound, which is a good thing.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2014, 07:00:31 PM »
And another thing..on MP's Score Commentary, during the Innocence Faded outro, he talks about how this section is very Journeyish and that DT fans would never let them get away with playing a section like that again.
Now I thought that outro was universally loved, yet somehow MP thought DT would rather hear something like the Night After Night section??

Well, MP was basically catering to the newest, youngest members of the fan base who dabbled in music with harsh vocals. Pretty blatantly a sell-out on his part.

Not in the slightest. He was bringing in an influence from his own current musical interests. You don't have to be a young or new fan to enjoy harsh vocals, and that influence about as far from selling out as you can get anyway. Given how he knew the fans would react to real growls, and how it was changed, I think he was trying to find a middle ground between evolving as a band, and maintaining DT's core sound, which is a good thing.

There are no growls or harsh vocals in that section.
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Offline Zook

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2014, 07:06:01 PM »
Tough guy shouting.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2014, 07:07:05 PM »
And another thing..on MP's Score Commentary, during the Innocence Faded outro, he talks about how this section is very Journeyish and that DT fans would never let them get away with playing a section like that again.
Now I thought that outro was universally loved, yet somehow MP thought DT would rather hear something like the Night After Night section??

Well, MP was basically catering to the newest, youngest members of the fan base who dabbled in music with harsh vocals. Pretty blatantly a sell-out on his part.

Not in the slightest. He was bringing in an influence from his own current musical interests. You don't have to be a young or new fan to enjoy harsh vocals, and that influence about as far from selling out as you can get anyway. Given how he knew the fans would react to real growls, and how it was changed, I think he was trying to find a middle ground between evolving as a band, and maintaining DT's core sound, which is a good thing.

There are no growls or harsh vocals in that section.

I'm not sure if you're replying more to me or Dream Team, but I didn't say there were. I was replying to Dream Team's comment about trying to appeal to fans of harsh vocals (which seems unlikely to me given that the actual harsh vocals were taken out).
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Offline wolfking

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2014, 07:11:33 PM »
I know, I just wanted to make it clear to everyone that there are no growls or harsh vocals in that section.

I actually agree with what you said.  It definitely wasn't DT trying to sell out.  If they were going to sell out, it wouldn't be one 30 second section of one song.  And you're right, they took it out in fear of how the fans would react.  it was all just MP trying to push his influences into the band, but it wasn't natural and just came out awkward IMO.

Tough guy shouting.

Pretty much.  Well, it's not really shouting either.  To me, it comes across as a metal parody.
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Offline Zook

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2014, 07:14:48 PM »
Even if James screamed that part, the vocal melodies and lyrics are just really silly, so nothing could really save that section for me.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2014, 08:49:45 PM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

Offline Xenon

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2014, 10:19:26 PM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it.
I think it is more about how badly done is that part, not about how different is. At least that's my case.

Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2014, 05:57:39 AM »
Has anybody brought up the awesome short solo bit by JP after the first verse? It's awesome. I've heard it countless times but it always floors me like it's the first.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #85 on: October 16, 2014, 06:01:33 AM »
Has anybody brought up the awesome short solo bit by JP after the first verse? It's awesome. I've heard it countless times but it always floors me like it's the first.

One of my favourite JP moments ever (and that's a tough honour). So rockin'. :metal
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Offline Sycsa

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #86 on: October 16, 2014, 06:10:42 AM »
Yeah, it's my go-to solo whenever I'm trying to make a case as to why wah-wah pedals are awesome.


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Offline Virtualman64

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2014, 06:18:54 AM »
Don't care for it at all,especially MP's growling vocal!

Offline wolfking

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2014, 07:02:37 AM »
Has anybody brought up the awesome short solo bit by JP after the first verse? It's awesome. I've heard it countless times but it always floors me like it's the first.

Yeah, it sorta catches you by surprise and grabs you by the balls.  Great stuff.


You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2014, 07:30:08 AM »
Yeah, it's my go-to solo whenever I'm trying to make a case as to why wah-wah pedals are awesome.

Haha totally true! That wah wah solo break is one of my favorite JP moments as well.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2014, 07:56:23 AM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
Yeah, no kidding.
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Offline DarkLord_Lalinc

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2014, 09:15:15 AM »
Has anybody brought up the awesome short solo bit by JP after the first verse? It's awesome. I've heard it countless times but it always floors me like it's the first.

One of my favourite JP moments ever (and that's a tough honour). So rockin'. :metal
Fuck yeah, and probably one of my favorite guitar tones by him. Absolute bliss.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2014, 10:59:39 AM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
Yeah, no kidding.

Heavy near growling vocals.  Nothing similar about that, eh?

Seriously, the only thing that is different is they add a very distorted James LaBrie snarling over MP's vocals on TDEN.  In the studio, MP is turned up as much if not more than James is. 

In other words, if you added James singing/shouting the exact same lyrics with some distortion over Mike's "Day after day" part, they would be pretty damn similar. 

Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2014, 11:48:48 AM »
Has anybody brought up the awesome short solo bit by JP after the first verse? It's awesome. I've heard it countless times but it always floors me like it's the first.

One of my favourite JP moments ever (and that's a tough honour). So rockin'. :metal
Fuck yeah, and probably one of my favorite guitar tones by him. Absolute bliss.


Speaking of tone. The tone during the main solo later in the song complements the atmospere flawlessly.

Offline Destiny Of Chaos

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2014, 03:03:38 PM »
My 2nd favorite DT song. Wouldn't change a thing. A prog METAL masterpiece!

Offline wolfking

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2014, 03:27:09 PM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
Yeah, no kidding.

Heavy near growling vocals.  Nothing similar about that, eh?

Seriously, the only thing that is different is they add a very distorted James LaBrie snarling over MP's vocals on TDEN.  In the studio, MP is turned up as much if not more than James is. 

In other words, if you added James singing/shouting the exact same lyrics with some distortion over Mike's "Day after day" part, they would be pretty damn similar.

You're looking at this too literally.  Of course, they have the same vocalists, but the verse in TDEN, is nothing like the MP section in ANTO, they are totally different.
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Offline Randaran

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2014, 04:43:32 PM »
Not to mention that the vocals in TDEN are actually badass and fit the fantasy lyrics of that song. They work because the lyrics are cheesy. Other than some general stylistic similarities, they are nothing alike. Jame's distorted vocals completely change the timbre of TDEN's verses.

In ANTR, "cookie monster" vocals would have actually worked. The sample MP posted sounded much better than the final song. His growls are not as good as Mikael's, but they are more than servicable. The lyrics themselves are bad, but a vocal style that does not bring attention to their poor quality would have made the section listenable.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2014, 05:05:27 PM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
Yeah, no kidding.

Heavy near growling vocals.  Nothing similar about that, eh?

Seriously, the only thing that is different is they add a very distorted James LaBrie snarling over MP's vocals on TDEN.  In the studio, MP is turned up as much if not more than James is. 

In other words, if you added James singing/shouting the exact same lyrics with some distortion over Mike's "Day after day" part, they would be pretty damn similar.

You're looking at this too literally.  Of course, they have the same vocalists, but the verse in TDEN, is nothing like the MP section in ANTO, they are totally different.

This makes sense to me but most people when criticizing it only mention the cookie monster vocals.  Sure its structured different but they style of vocals is very similar.  So in my original comment I said, "How is this ANY different?" when I should have said "How is it THAT different?"  Sure the songs and lyrics are clearly different and there are some differences in the vocal styles but for everybody complaining about the harsh or cookie monster vocals, I dont see how it is THAT far removed (except that TDEN is a kickass song and ANTR kinda sucks IMO).  BTW Wolfking, I am seeing King Diamond next Wednesday!


Offline Zook

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2014, 05:23:23 PM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
Yeah, no kidding.

Heavy near growling vocals.  Nothing similar about that, eh?

Seriously, the only thing that is different is they add a very distorted James LaBrie snarling over MP's vocals on TDEN.  In the studio, MP is turned up as much if not more than James is. 

In other words, if you added James singing/shouting the exact same lyrics with some distortion over Mike's "Day after day" part, they would be pretty damn similar.

You're looking at this too literally.  Of course, they have the same vocalists, but the verse in TDEN, is nothing like the MP section in ANTO, they are totally different.

This makes sense to me but most people when criticizing it only mention the cookie monster vocals.  Sure its structured different but they style of vocals is very similar.  So in my original comment I said, "How is this ANY different?" when I should have said "How is it THAT different?"  Sure the songs and lyrics are clearly different and there are some differences in the vocal styles but for everybody complaining about the harsh or cookie monster vocals, I dont see how it is THAT far removed (except that TDEN is a kickass song and ANTR kinda sucks IMO).  BTW Wolfking, I am seeing King Diamond next Wednesday!



THERE ARE NO COOKIE MONSTER VOCALS!!!!!!!!!!


Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2014, 05:36:18 PM »

There are no growls or harsh vocals in that section.

Come on now. We can be pedantic and say that they're technically not growls, even if it's not far removed from this definition. But of course people are going to use the word almost invariably when there are so many comparative associations. But you can't say that it's not a 'harsh' vocal line. It's exactly that. It might not be a scream, growl, a grunting pig or whatever description you'd want to be specific about. But it certainly is a harsh vocal passage. Maybe not to someone who listens to Death Metal or something but I think even the average DT fan would call that harsh vocals.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2014, 05:39:28 PM »
THERE ARE NO COOKIE MONSTER VOCALS!!!!!!!!!!

Except when there are.  :lol
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Offline Zook

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2014, 06:36:04 PM »

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2014, 11:45:55 PM »

Offline wolfking

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2014, 11:51:08 PM »
You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's worst moment.

You know, I'd probably go as far as saying that the MP vocal section is DT's most exaggerated and overblown criticism.

I can agree with that.  How is this really any different from The Dark Eternal Night?  That is a polarizing song but not to this extent! I don't like ANTR but it isn't because of MP's vocals.  It is one of the more different sections of a DT song so I can understand how some people can be put off by it...but the hardcore hate for that section?  Don't get it. 

How is it the same?
Yeah, no kidding.

Heavy near growling vocals.  Nothing similar about that, eh?

Seriously, the only thing that is different is they add a very distorted James LaBrie snarling over MP's vocals on TDEN.  In the studio, MP is turned up as much if not more than James is. 

In other words, if you added James singing/shouting the exact same lyrics with some distortion over Mike's "Day after day" part, they would be pretty damn similar.

You're looking at this too literally.  Of course, they have the same vocalists, but the verse in TDEN, is nothing like the MP section in ANTO, they are totally different.

This makes sense to me but most people when criticizing it only mention the cookie monster vocals.  Sure its structured different but they style of vocals is very similar.  So in my original comment I said, "How is this ANY different?" when I should have said "How is it THAT different?"  Sure the songs and lyrics are clearly different and there are some differences in the vocal styles but for everybody complaining about the harsh or cookie monster vocals, I dont see how it is THAT far removed (except that TDEN is a kickass song and ANTR kinda sucks IMO).  BTW Wolfking, I am seeing King Diamond next Wednesday!

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Offline snapple

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Re: A Nightmare to Remember
« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2014, 06:35:50 AM »
I usually skipped the rest of the song after Beautiful Agony.