Author Topic: A thread for DT's Epics?  (Read 4147 times)

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Offline MiracleSleeper

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A thread for DT's Epics?
« on: October 06, 2014, 12:03:14 PM »
Was looking to read up on everyone's thoughts regarding all of DT's epics. Anyone have a link to a good thread?

Offline adamack

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2014, 12:27:56 PM »
May as well start one here!

Quick question, which are considered the epics?

Obviously there are:

Octavarium
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
In The Presence Of Enemies
A Change Of Seasons
Illumination Theory

But could any of these also be considered epics?...

The Count Of Tuscany
In The Name Of God
Metropolis
The Ministry Of Lost Souls
Breaking All Illusions
Trial Of Tears
Learning To Live
Finally Free

I'm assuming not, but I'm curious to know if any of the above could be considered an epic.

Thanks!

Offline MiracleSleeper

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2014, 12:33:17 PM »
I always considered "The Count of Tuscany" to be one of DT's traditional epics. I mean, it has the structure and it's a minute shy of 20 minutes long. The others you listed I've always just considered as being some of DT's "longer" songs, or "mini-epics".

And since it looks like we're starting a discussion here, I may as well rank 'em!

1- Octavarium / Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2- A Change of Seasons
3- The Count of Tuscany
4- In The Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory

Online Podaar

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2014, 01:27:01 PM »
1- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2- Illumination Theory
3- A Change of Seasons
4- In The Presence of Enemies
5- Octavarium
6- The Count of Tuscany

Although there are moments in the bottom four that equal or even exceed moments in the first two.

Oh, and after the release of Breaking The Fourth Wall, I'd rank Breaking All Illusions just below ACoS if we're considering it an epic.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2014, 02:32:41 PM »
1. Octavarium. Untouchable IMO.
2. Six Degrees.
3. Illumination Theory
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies ( part 2 really lets it down IMO )
6. A Change Of Seasons. ( like a mish mash of leftovers shoved together in one song with no regards to arrangement ).

Offline Xenon

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2014, 02:36:04 PM »
1-A change of seasons
2-Six degrees
3-Illumination Theory
4-Octavarium
5- The count odf tuscany

I'm not sure about "In the presence" being an epic, though.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 08:10:40 PM by Xenon »

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2014, 02:38:54 PM »
Only on a Dream Theater forum would we be discussing whether a 19 minute song is an "epic" :P :P

Offline MiracleSleeper

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2014, 02:46:54 PM »
Only on a Dream Theater forum would we be discussing whether a 19 minute song is an "epic" :P :P

:lol So true.

Offline PROGdrummer

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2014, 02:50:29 PM »
Its honestly amazing how everyone seems to think that Illumination Theory's runtime of 19:15 justifies it being considered an "epic", but The Count of Tuscany is 19:16 and somehow not an epic.

And In The Presence of Enemies is over 25 minutes long, making it longer than both ACOS and Octavarium. Why would anyone not consider ITPOE an epic? Because it's split into two parts?

6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.

So is it really just based on personal preference? Or the general opinion on this forum of what is a good song or bad song?

Offline Xenon

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2014, 02:54:33 PM »
Only on a Dream Theater forum would we be discussing whether a 19 minute song is an "epic" :P :P

:lol So true.
lol  :lol

Offline mikemangioy

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2014, 02:55:35 PM »
6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.

I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2014, 02:56:36 PM »
6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.

I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
"An album in an album" doesn't make any sense.
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Offline Xenon

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2014, 03:00:10 PM »
And In The Presence of Enemies is over 25 minutes long, making it longer than both ACOS and Octavarium. Why would anyone not consider ITPOE an epic? Because it's split into two parts?

6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.

The thing with ITPOE is that the album order fucks up my perception of the thing as a whole.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2014, 04:15:07 PM »
I don't consider The Count of Tuscany to be one of their epics. To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length. By that standard, the band has five epics: A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, and Illumination Theory. The Count of Tuscany is just a very long (and amazing) song. Here's how I would rank their epics.

1- Octavarium
2- A Change of Seasons
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4- In the Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory

If I were to consider TCoT an epic, it would be in between 8VM and ACoS. These songs are actually my top 3 DT songs.
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Offline krands85

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2014, 04:29:03 PM »
To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length.
Illumination Theory is only over 20 minutes long because of the easter egg  :P ;D I get what you mean though. I guess everyone has their own definition of what makes an epic, but here's my list:

1. Octavarium
2. Illumination Theory
3. In the Presence of Enemies
4. A Change of Seasons
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Octavarium is my clear favourite. The next 4 are very closely matched and all in my DT top 10. 6 Degrees lags way behind, though I still sometimes struggle to see it as one song - perhaps that's why I don't enjoy it as much as a lot of people.
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Offline Randaran

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2014, 04:49:18 PM »
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Octavarium is untouchable (easily a Top 3 DT song), the others are all fairly spaced out in terms of preference(ITPOE is in the teens, IT in the 20s, ACOS in the 40s, and SDOIT... well, I have not ranked songs beyond the top 50).
Only a prog fan would try to measure how much they enjoy a song by an equation. :lol
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Offline PROGdrummer

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2014, 06:09:41 PM »
I don't consider The Count of Tuscany to be one of their epics. To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length. By that standard, the band has five epics: A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, and Illumination Theory. The Count of Tuscany is just a very long (and amazing) song. Here's how I would rank their epics.

1- Octavarium
2- A Change of Seasons
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4- In the Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory

If I were to consider TCoT an epic, it would be in between 8VM and ACoS. These songs are actually my top 3 DT songs.

 :facepalm: :censored

IT is even shorter than TCOS!

I digress.  If the band had taped 30 seconds of dead silence and an unrelated easter egg epilogue at the end of TCOT, I guess it would be an epic too.

Isnt that kind of like saying that The Need for Repetition by BTBAM is a 14 minute "mini-epic", even though the song is about 45% music, 40% dead silence, and 15% hidden easter egg track?


The thing with ITPOE is that the album order fucks up my perception of the thing as a whole.

Listen to Part 1 and Part 2 back to back. Or, better yet, splice the two tracks together. You will hear that it is indeed one fluid song, it even fits together with a smooth transition. It is even performed that way live.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 08:09:05 PM by PROGdrummer »

Offline GasparXR

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2014, 06:20:30 PM »
I don't consider The Count of Tuscany to be one of their epics. To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length. By that standard, the band has five epics: A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, and Illumination Theory. The Count of Tuscany is just a very long (and amazing) song. Here's how I would rank their epics.

1- Octavarium
2- A Change of Seasons
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4- In the Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory

If I were to consider TCoT an epic, it would be in between 8VM and ACoS. These songs are actually my top 3 DT songs.

 :facepalm: :censored

IT is even shorter than TCOS!

I digress.  If the band had taped 30 seconds of dead silence and an unrelated easter egg epilogue at the end of TCOT, I guess it would be an epic too.

Isnt that kind of like saying that The Need for Repetition by BTBAM is a 14 minute "mini-epic", even though the song is about 45% music, 40% dead silence, and 20% hidden easter egg track?


The thing with ITPOE is that the album order fucks up my perception of the thing as a whole.

Listen to Part 1 and Part 2 back to back. Or, better yet, splice the two tracks together. You will hear that it is indeed one fluid song, it even fits together with a smooth transition. It is even performed that way live.

That's why I consider an DT epic based on it's structure and length, not either of the two exclusively. Which means I consider both IT and TCOT to be epics. TCOT may just be shy of 20 minutes (same with IT if you don't consider the easter egg to be part of it), and it may not have distinctly labelled lyrical sections, but it still has a similar structure to most of their epics. I could name 4 parts to it right now. The first part is the entire instrumental intro. Part two is when it gets more riff-based and begins the verse-chorus section. Part three is the ambient and soft section. Part four begins with the guitar chords and vocals with the main theme and is the last part.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2014, 06:22:23 PM »
Why don't we just call 'em "pretty long songs" and save a bunch of time debating semantics.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2014, 06:43:02 PM »
6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.

I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
"An album in an album" doesn't make any sense.

Might not be the best description, but it kinda makes sense. Because of the suite like structure of Six Degrees the song, it can feel like a mini album (and in fact, is a similar length if not longer than some albums out there).

Anyway, I also consider The Count of Tuscany an epic, if anyone can describe how it isn't without dismissing the obvious considerations then I'll change my mind on the definition.  :lol

The whole description for these things is too ambiguous though. Because anything that's written in parts and sections, is the first step in creating a 'multi layered' structure that is expected in these epics. Even The Killing Hand which has gone unmentioned should be recognised for this, at the very least it was a precursor for what was to come. And if we can't agree on what the epics are, we certainly won't agree on whatever a mini-epic would be.  :|

A Mind Beside Itself is not far from an epic itself, but because it's better known as three songs, I guess it doesn't count. I do wonder if it was intended during the writing process that there'd be some kind of thread that intentionally links them or if it just sorta happened.

And then there's just long songs like Breaking All Illusions, In The Name of God, Scarred. Probably Trial of Tears, even though it has parts. But I guess that doesn't automatically make it an epic, False Awakening has parts that are less than a minute long and that's not considered an epic by DT fan definitions. Even if it sounds 'epic' in and of itself.

Did someone mention Illumination Theory not being an epic? For all intents and purposes, I think that was always supposed to be written that way. It was even referred to as simply; "Epic" on the board during the "in studio" vids on youtube.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2014, 07:20:44 PM »
Why don't we just call 'em "pretty long songs" and save a bunch of time debating semantics.

DTF would be nothing without debating semantics! :lol

My ranking would be-

Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (top 1/2 DT song depending on my mood)
Octavarium

In The Presence Of Enemies

Illumination Theory

A Change Of Seasons

Aside from the top 2, I wouldn't rank their mega epics all that highly. ITPOE is great aside from the instrumental section (it's not bad, but adds little). I liked IT at first, but listening to it on BTFW, I'm very much over that song. ACOS is consistently average, with no part of the song being truly great.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2014, 09:51:00 PM »
How about Visions? Pretty epic track there.

Oh wait...that's Haken.

Offline Scorpion

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2014, 04:49:58 AM »
Yeah, if you flip around Blob's list, then that's mine.
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Offline MiracleSleeper

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2014, 12:27:02 PM »
I might as well change the thread title to "What Defines a DT Epic?" lol

Offline Randaran

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2014, 01:37:48 PM »
Isnt that kind of like saying that The Need for Repetition by BTBAM is a 14 minute "mini-epic", even though the song is about 45% music, 40% dead silence, and 20% hidden easter egg track?

Well, I would consider a song that is 105% pretty damn epic.
Only a prog fan would try to measure how much they enjoy a song by an equation. :lol
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2014, 02:12:53 PM »
:clap:
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Offline jammindude

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2014, 04:55:46 PM »
1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany




















6. In the Presence of Enemies
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2014, 05:09:07 PM »
1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany




















6. In the Presence of Enemies


Your 6 is my 5 and your 2 is my 6.

Offline MiracleSleeper

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2014, 05:35:24 PM »
1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany




















6. In the Presence of Enemies
Poor ITPOE. I feel so bad for it. Why did you rank it so low? You definitely hurt its feelings.

Offline jammindude

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2014, 06:59:09 PM »
1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany




















6. In the Presence of Enemies
Poor ITPOE. I feel so bad for it. Why did you rank it so low? You definitely hurt its feelings.

awww....is the baby dark master gonna cry now?   Come on baby dark master....cry for me.....CRYYYYYYY BABY DARK MASTER!!!!  CRY!!!!!
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Offline MiracleSleeper

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2014, 07:14:18 PM »
1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany




















6. In the Presence of Enemies
Poor ITPOE. I feel so bad for it. Why did you rank it so low? You definitely hurt its feelings.

awww....is the baby dark master gonna cry now?   Come on baby dark master....cry for me.....CRYYYYYYY BABY DARK MASTER!!!!  CRY!!!!!
:lol

Seriously though, is there a specific reason for your lack of love for ITPOE? Or does it just not really catch your interest?

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2014, 07:29:16 PM »
1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. Illumination Theory
4. The Count of Tuscany
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. In the Presence of Enemies

I enjoy them all though.

Your 6 is my 5 and your 2 is my 6.

That sounded strangely romantic.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2014, 07:39:16 PM »
All I know is SDOIT is number 1.

Offline PROGdrummer

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2014, 08:09:35 PM »
Lol  math

Offline jammindude

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Re: A thread for DT's Epics?
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2014, 09:53:05 PM »
@MiracleSleeper

My complaints are the same as most....Part 1 is actually pretty cool, and part 2 is either forgettable or just plain silly.  (The whole dark master section is just painful to get through)    So based on that, and taking the entire piece as a whole, I just find it to be the weakest of all their epics by an extremely wide margin.  All the others are so good that it's hard to rank them at all.   With ITPOE, there is no question.   It's just a mess.
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