Author Topic: Systematic Chaos is amazing.  (Read 16479 times)

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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #105 on: October 05, 2014, 05:15:31 PM »
My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.

Not the best introduction.

Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis.  :lol
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Offline bl5150

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #106 on: October 05, 2014, 11:37:55 PM »
My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.

Not the best introduction.

Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis.  :lol

Epic ending though  ;D

ETERNITYYYYY.......................................................EAH.  :metal
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 11:45:52 PM by bl5150 »
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #107 on: October 05, 2014, 11:57:50 PM »
 :lol


But in any case, this is getting way off topic, as expected of DTF.
But Systematic Chaos really is an awesome album, and it is a shame that a great song like Forsaken never became a hit. At least in the Metal circles.
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Offline TheSilentHam

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2014, 01:30:01 AM »
With all the vampire-themed shows and movies, I thought "Forsaken" might be picked up and used in a soundtrack or something.... but no.

Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2014, 02:26:25 AM »
My first experience of JLB was the Master Of Puppets live cover - which is probably his worst vocal period ever.

Not the best introduction.

Yeah, no kidding. But hey, imagine hearing James Hetfield for the first time, trying to do a cover of Metropolis.  :lol

Epic ending though  ;D

ETERNITYYYYYic tick tick tick tick tick tock..........................EAH.  :metal
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Offline efx

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2014, 02:51:55 AM »
It's probably my least favorite album of theirs. I was actually one of the "fanchanters" on it and the experience of going to the studio to do it was great fun so I was looking forward to it.

But sandwhiched between two far superior albums just never gives me any reason to listen to it anymore.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2014, 04:42:25 AM »
But you're on it! How cool is that? You're supposed to be biased towards it! :P

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2014, 11:46:08 AM »
For me, SC is somewhat fun to sing along with in the car, but aside from the brilliance of ITPOE Pt. 1 and the heaviness of TDEN, that's about it.  I find that it has less "depth" than any other DT album.
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Offline efx

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2014, 11:49:49 AM »
But you're on it! How cool is that? You're supposed to be biased towards it! :P

Yeah I really should or at least have a more emotional connection to it. But I don't and it kind of sucks to be honest :/

Offline snapple

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #114 on: October 06, 2014, 12:14:32 PM »
something about Octavarium being mediocre..

O_o

The title track cements that albums legacy of being mediocre.

Offline MiracleSleeper

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2014, 12:19:53 PM »
There's honestly nothing specific about the album that I dislike, I just don't find the songs to be up to par with some of DT's other works. But yeah, ITPOE is amazing though. I'm actually listening to it now, lol.

Offline snapple

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »
The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.

The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)


I'm not saying any one of these songs are bad, but I knew they'd be on their respective albums. When 50-60% of a band's album is guessable, it sort of ruins it for you.

I'm also a hopeless romantic for DT's earlier stuff. I think the immature stuff is just more fun. My top 3 DT albums are probably shared by very few (Awake, Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity) and I enjoy the SHIT out of WDADU. That stuff is back from when they took chances. I feel like that post-Train of Thought-era Dream Theater sort of hit a stride and sort of said "fuck it, let's do it this way" until Mike left the band. I'm also one of those who still believe that Mike had a lot to do with this particular era's direction. And, again, I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I just feel like I need to flesh out my thoughts about why I'm always a negative cock when talking about these albums. I still enjoy a random listen of them every once in a while.


All of that said, yeah, I understand I'm in the minority. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just feel that Dream Theater had lost some of their spark in those years, and a new drummer helped them regain that spark.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2014, 04:21:29 PM »
something about Octavarium being mediocre..

O_o

The title track cements that albums legacy of being mediocre.

O_o


Octavarium is far and away their best song.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2014, 05:13:18 PM »
Yeah,  holy cow snapple to quote a famous Yankee
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2014, 05:18:52 PM »
No, it's not but it's not bad either.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2014, 05:43:34 PM »
SeRoX, hard to argue that the title track isn't top 3 all time for DT.
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2014, 05:53:25 PM »
 :lol I think there is a misunderstading.

I actually answered the OP's opinion about SC. I didn't even read your debate.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2014, 05:55:50 PM »
:lol I think there is a misunderstading.

I actually answered the OP's opinion about SC. I didn't even read your debate.

 :lol

OOPPS! :lol
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2014, 07:09:40 PM »
The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.

The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)


I follow what you're saying, but in fairness, you can apply that blueprint and associate anything with it really. A lot of the songs you lumped together I'd consider very different from each other, even if they have a common ground of sorts (I mean, with music you can find common ground between very different pieces in some cases). By those descriptions, anything can kinda fit, for example, here's ADTOE and DT12:

The heavy "single" (Build Me Up Break Me Down, The Enemy Inside)
The ballad "single" (This Is The Life, Along For The Ride)
The song that's too long (Outcry, The Bigger Picture)
The AA Suite (Okay, I got nothing here unless I try to lump something in that might have related themes)
Forced epics (Lost Not Forgotten, Illumination Theory)


Lets try with an earlier example like Awake and Falling Into Infinity:
The heavy "single" (Lie/Caught In A Web, Burning My Soul)
The ballad "single" (The Silent Man, Hollow Years)
The song that's too long (Voices, Lines in The Sand)
The AA Suite (The Mirror)
Forced epics (Scarred, Trial of Tears)


See? Could probably make it work for I&W if you wanted to and that's never been considered formulaic.

Offline ariich

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2014, 03:27:25 AM »
I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event",  by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #125 on: October 07, 2014, 04:49:02 AM »
This is probably the wrong thread but I had a thought about Black Clouds & Silver Linings.

I think that if an album is going to only have six songs on then those six songs need to all be fantastic.

Nightmare is way too long and has that harsh vocal section.

Rite is ok but hardly A+ Dream Theater.

Wither  is good.

Shattered is a mish mash of previous songs and the final two songs come close to saving the album but still have problems.

What say you ?

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #126 on: October 07, 2014, 04:54:16 AM »
What say you ?
Probably the wrong thread.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #127 on: October 08, 2014, 04:27:51 PM »
What say you ?

I say opinions and stuff. For example, I think all 6 songs are pretty awesome for their own reasons even if you can find reasons why you don't think so. But BC&SL was my first proper exposure to DT so having a completely different experience with zero expectations will naturally put a different spin on things.

Offline Virtualman64

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #128 on: October 11, 2014, 07:58:59 AM »
My least favorite DT album with the exception of a couple of songs.Sorry.

Offline PixelDream

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #129 on: October 11, 2014, 09:06:13 AM »
Systematic Chaos is a pretty fun record. Probably lower tier album for me.

However, I was listening to Awake, and somewhere during Space-Dye Vest I had to do something else and left the room.
When I returned, Black Clouds was on (because of the alphabet), and 'Rite of Passage' was on. I hadn't heard the song in ages and.. damn. Probably one of DT's worst songs together with 'Along for the Ride'. Actually I even like that one better. RoP sounds so formulaic and tired.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #130 on: October 11, 2014, 09:14:13 AM »

When I returned, Black Clouds was on (because of the alphabet), and 'Rite of Passage' was on. I hadn't heard the song in ages and.. damn. Probably one of DT's worst songs together with 'Along for the Ride'. Actually I even like that one better. RoP sounds so formulaic and tired.

Structurally yes, but musically no. Fantastic chorus too.
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Offline tiagodon

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #131 on: October 11, 2014, 12:58:05 PM »
I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event",  by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.

Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #132 on: October 11, 2014, 01:03:02 PM »
What does it matter if it's Comercial prog?  Honestly,95% of Metallica is not comercial.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #133 on: October 11, 2014, 01:09:38 PM »
Prog = Progressive and Metallica haven't done fuck all in 8 years :neverusethis:




In fact Death Magnetic was the first time they went backwards.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #134 on: October 11, 2014, 01:11:21 PM »
Retro sir, retro.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
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Offline IdoSC

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #135 on: October 11, 2014, 02:06:09 PM »
Sorry, but I'm a "hater".

I mean, I really like the album, but it's my 2nd least favorite and has some of the only DT songs I genuinely dislike/am completely indifferent to.

 - In the Presence of Enemies (as a whole) is great, but has some of the only instrumental segments I feel the need to skip most of the time. The guys really went off in this song and these parts barely feel connected to the main song at all. They actually break the song into separate mini-songs, and along with the cringeworthy-to-funny (as in, I'm laughing at/with Petrucci for writing it), it makes the song really hard to follow sometimes. Other times I am in the right mood though.

 - Forsaken is a really fun song but it's a pop song in the cover of a Metal song with (again) nearly-Anime lyrics. It reminds me of James' Impermanent Resonance or BMUBMD. I love all of the songs and the album mentioned in this bullet, but you have to be in the right mood for it and it's quite unique for DT to write this kind of songs (Wither and I Walk Beside You belong to different genres IMO).

 - Constant Motion is bad. One song I really dislike. Bad lyrics (especially since the subject could provide so much better lyrics, and the current ones always sound to me like "I AM MIKE PORTNOY AND I AM HYPERACTIVE IN THE NIGHT YO"), annoying melodies and music, a ridiculously dull and boring instrumental segment for a 7 minute song, and it's just...I don't know, it's bad. The guys played it in my first show of them in 2009, and while the rest of the show was quite awesome, when this song came up I literally just stood there, waiting for it to end. I will listen to it like once every 1 or 2 years like I would listen to some pop songs I barely like on the same ratio (or while listening to the entire album), but I really don't come back to this song regularly.

 - The Dark Eternal Night is mediocre. It's not like I can't stand it, but it barely has any appeal to me. Again, it has a horrible instrumental section, probably my least favorite out of DT's discography, and the harsh vocal from both Mike/JP (depending on the live show) and sometimes James are really unnecessary and embarrassing. Sounds like your grandpa trying to sing harsh metal vocals. The one redeeming value I have for this song is when James pulls an awesome high note in live shows (yay Luna Park, boo Chaos in Motion!)

 -  I hate Repentance. I really just plain hate it. After the second time I fell asleep listening to it I simply gave up and never listened to it again. This song actually annoys me to the point where I don't feel like going through why at the moment because it's gonna be twice as long as this post so far :3

 - Prophets of War - me likey. Could apprecaite Winter Rose-esque backing vocals instead of the mockery falsetto of Mike and John which completely butchers the tone of the song to me, but the rest of it is awesome. Too bad they never play it live. Maybe it would get the triggered vocals treatment from James now.

 - The Ministry of Lost Souls - I like this song, it has a lot more going for it compared to Forsaken and the quiet parts of In the Presence of Enemies. But then again, you guessed it - an overly stretched out "wankery" instrumental section and Anime lyrics ruin the gag. I do admit that the climax part where James sings "I wanted to deserve a place..." is really heartfelt and almost makes me forget that the song is about a weird aftertlife bedtime story every time. This could rival The Spirit Carries On with better lyrics and a more concise instrumental section, in my opinion.

I'm really sorry if I offend anyone with my opinion, though that's really how I feel about this album - it's about a 6 in my book, which is really low for how I score DT's albums. The parts I didn't mention in the songs, like the band's general musicianship, James' singing for the most part, and the riffs during the main leads are off the charts. There's too many wrongs in this album for me to fully appreciate it, though :\

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #136 on: October 11, 2014, 02:06:49 PM »
I'm obviously not talking about vocal qualities, that is a totally different matter. But yes, if DT had made their concerts more of an "personalized event",  by for example having a strongly engaging front man, they would have been bigger, IMHO.
I get what you're saying, and somewhat agree. I think Metallica is a great example of this. Their music is hardly simple or particularly accessible, but they are astronomically big and so much of that is down to Hetfield's charisma.

Metallica is a prog metal band that keeps their songs in the 4/4 tempo and in the 6/7 min length and avoids the double-bass drumming... They play a very commercial prog. And, of course, we have Hetfield's charisma.
[yes, I think Metallica is prog!]
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #137 on: October 11, 2014, 02:23:01 PM »
My Top Tier :

Octavarium
Six Degrees
Scenes From A Memory
Train of Thought

My Middle Tier :

Falling Into Infinity
A Dramatic Turn Of Events
DT12
Images & Words

My Bottom Tier :

Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Awake
Systematic Chaos
When Dream & Day Unite

Offline IdoSC

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #138 on: October 11, 2014, 02:25:48 PM »
The problem with Octavarium/Systematic Chaos/Black Clouds, for me, is the predictability of what kinds of songs were going to be on the albums.

The heavy "single" (Panic Attack, Constant Motion, A Rite of Passage)
The ballad "single" (I Walk Beside You, Forsaken, Wither)
The song that's too long (Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry of Lost Souls, The Best of Times)
The AA Suite (The Root of All Evil, Repentance, The Shattered Fortress)
Forced epics (Octavarium (le nuggets xD), In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany)


I'm not saying any one of these songs are bad, but I knew they'd be on their respective albums. When 50-60% of a band's album is guessable, it sort of ruins it for you.

I'm also a hopeless romantic for DT's earlier stuff. I think the immature stuff is just more fun. My top 3 DT albums are probably shared by very few (Awake, Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity) and I enjoy the SHIT out of WDADU. That stuff is back from when they took chances. I feel like that post-Train of Thought-era Dream Theater sort of hit a stride and sort of said "fuck it, let's do it this way" until Mike left the band. I'm also one of those who still believe that Mike had a lot to do with this particular era's direction. And, again, I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing. I just feel like I need to flesh out my thoughts about why I'm always a negative cock when talking about these albums. I still enjoy a random listen of them every once in a while.


All of that said, yeah, I understand I'm in the minority. And I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just feel that Dream Theater had lost some of their spark in those years, and a new drummer helped them regain that spark.
I agree with your entire post and especially the first part of the sentence in bold. I don't agree with the second part of it though - it was more than 50-60%. Way more. It was so predictable that my brain nearly forced that pattern on ADTOE as a matter of habit. Fortunately, it failed, and I love that album (I also love Octavarium, probably because it was the first of the patten trio and the songs' quality is at least better than SC/BCSL in my opinion).

Offline tiagodon

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Re: Systematic Chaos is amazing.
« Reply #139 on: October 11, 2014, 03:17:41 PM »
It's funny but I see The Dark Eternal Night as a cousin of Metropolis pt.1. Both have many similarities.