Author Topic: Dumb Question ?  (Read 1352 times)

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Offline Kotowboy

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Dumb Question ?
« on: September 30, 2014, 11:06:21 AM »
I feel like I should know this but i'm gonna ask anyway.

Could an orchestra play what's on the page in front of them without a conductor ?

Surely it's all written down along with accents and what not ?

I'm sure I asked this question on my music degree but either I didn't get the answer or I forgot.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2014, 12:55:05 PM »
Obviously I know they could play THE NOTES and the time signatures and the feel is written down...

Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2014, 01:06:16 PM »
I'm gonna say no, but I only have experience playing in a high school level orchestra. No idea if the pros could do it.

Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2014, 01:10:49 PM »
No. That's why when Mike Portnoy wasn't there to conduct the band... They had to bring Mangini in to play to a click.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline ariich

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2014, 01:20:20 PM »
It depends on the piece of music. If it has a steady rhythm and reasonably constant pace then yeah they probably could. That's very rarely the case in orchestral music though.

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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 01:25:52 PM »
That's entirely dependent on what they're playing. In general no but if it's an renowned orchestra that have played together for a long time and it's a well known piece then it's possible but again that's dependent on what they're playing.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 01:30:32 PM »
It's possible but the conductor makes it a hell of a lot easier for everyone.

Offline PROGdrummer

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 03:03:40 PM »
I've witnessed the Pittsburgh Symphony orchestra play John Williams songs live without a conductor.

So I'd say yes. As long as they know what the song is supposed to sound like I guess.

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 03:07:45 PM »
I imagine it would be incredibly hard to know the pulse, and keep it, if there isn't someone 'conducting' it to a degree.

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2014, 03:17:39 PM »
I agree with the general sentiment expressed here. Plus, the first fermata would fuck them over.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2014, 03:39:33 PM »
I have been told by professionals that the conductor is a bit like a football or soccer coach. Yes, he is there for the game, but it's mostly ceremonial. Most of his work went into the rehearsals; except maybe a few freeform sections where he/she gives the visual cue, the musicians should (and do) have the timing down to the T, and don't even look at the conductor all that much.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 03:44:44 PM »
I have been told by professionals that the conductor is a bit like a football or soccer coach. Yes, he is there for the game, but it's mostly ceremonial. Most of his work went into the rehearsals; except maybe a few freeform sections where he/she gives the visual cue, the musicians should (and do) have the timing down to the T, and don't even look at the conductor all that much.

As I figured. I assumed they'd all know the charts already. And since they have a drummer behind them - the conductor doesn't really need to be giving them the tempo.

Offline Implode

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 03:45:38 PM »
That's a little scary. I'd like to think that all or my conductors up through college were there for a reason and meant to be paid attention to. At that level it should be the other way around. The members barely looking at their music and instead focusing on the conductor and fellow performers.  I'm sure a very skilled group could make it through a piece, but I doubt it would be as good as it would with a conductor. Rock bland jazz bands don't need conductors because the smaller number of members allows them all to contantly look at each other and communicate, even in a song without a consistant tempo. In am ensemble with dozens of players, there's no way you can reasonably keep your eyes on everyone. Not to mention the acoustics in various venues will screw over people if they are just playing in time with what they hear, hence conductors and in ear monitors for rock bands.

Offline PROGdrummer

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 08:06:03 PM »
I dont see how an entire collection of presumably world class musicians would not be able to play a song together, given that they know what the material is supposed to sound like.

Like any rock band, Im sure if they tried to play a song together for the first time ever based on sheet music alone without hearing it, it would be a catastrophe. But if they know how the piece is supposed to go, they can perform a cover flawlessly together, assuming that the musicians are skilled enough to do so. It cant be impossible.

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2014, 01:22:35 AM »
I dont see how an entire collection of presumably world class musicians would not be able to play a song together, given that they know what the material is supposed to sound like.

Like any rock band, Im sure if they tried to play a song together for the first time ever based on sheet music alone without hearing it, it would be a catastrophe. But if they know how the piece is supposed to go, they can perform a cover flawlessly together, assuming that the musicians are skilled enough to do so. It cant be impossible.

If there isn't a clearly definable pulse, in any music, its always at risk of falling apart.  It would be especially difficult in sections where there are no percussive instruments playing.  I would imagine that's the main job of the conductor, to set pace and keep everyone in time.

Offline bl5150

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 01:53:48 AM »
I have been told by professionals that the conductor is a bit like a football or soccer coach. Yes, he is there for the game, but it's mostly ceremonial. Most of his work went into the rehearsals; except maybe a few freeform sections where he/she gives the visual cue, the musicians should (and do) have the timing down to the T, and don't even look at the conductor all that much.

I'd agree with this ....................I can't speak for others (and my instrument - guitar - was perhaps less dependent) but when I played within big bands/jazz bands/orchestras it seemed to me that the conductor did a lot of good work getting the right tempo/accents in practice but if I was properly practiced I took very little notice of the conductor during THE performance.  I was too busy concentrating on getting the notes/chords right and using the other bits "as per practice"
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Offline ariich

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2014, 02:19:26 AM »
I have been told by professionals that the conductor is a bit like a football or soccer coach. Yes, he is there for the game, but it's mostly ceremonial. Most of his work went into the rehearsals; except maybe a few freeform sections where he/she gives the visual cue, the musicians should (and do) have the timing down to the T, and don't even look at the conductor all that much.

I'd agree with this ....................I can't speak for others (and my instrument - guitar - was perhaps less dependent) but when I played within big bands/jazz bands/orchestras it seemed to me that the conductor did a lot of good work getting the right tempo/accents in practice but if I was properly practiced I took very little notice of the conductor during THE performance.  I was too busy concentrating on getting the notes/chords right and using the other bits "as per practice"
It's easier in a jazz band when there's a steady beat/swing to the music. Again, a lot of orchestral music does not have that, and has a lot of speeding up and slowing down, pauses, etc, and the conductor is needed to set the pace and keep everyone together.

I'll say again, it depends on the piece. It also depends somewhat on how much an orchestra has practiced a particular piece. It's possible if they know it REALLY REALLY well that they all know exactly the accelrandos and ritardandos that the conductor has taught them, in which case they won't need him. That's almost never the case though, even with the pros.


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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2014, 05:28:16 AM »
But who is conducting the conductor ? :dangerwillrobinson:

Offline puppyonacid

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 06:29:22 AM »
I seem to recall a Radio 4 programme years ago where they tried this.

It was the BBC Philharmonic. They got a piece started with a conductor and I'm fairly certain it was a more challenging orchestral piece. Perhaps not the most avant garde but certainly not the easiest.

They got the piece going and about 3 minutes in the conductor left the room for two minutes. Many were convinced that upon the conductors return two minutes later we would be listening to a train wreck...two minutes later the conductor comes back in and not a beat had been dropped.

Make of that what you will.

Also, this orchestra plays for almost an hour without one.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpOzR5hNWS0
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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 10:08:06 AM »
Besides working as a teacher I freelance as a percussionist in both professional and semi-professional orchestras aswell in smaller ensembles and projects which sometimes uses a conducter. As Rumby put it a conducter does most of his heavy work during the rehearsals, when the actual performances takes place the orchestra knows pretty much what he will do during the piece. Regardless of that he still is very much an important part of the orchestra. In general I would say that in amateur orchestras he's more important as an actual conducter but in professional orchestras his role is to get the most out of the musicians, to push them and motivate them to perform better. Basically turn gold to a diamond in lack of a better word.

With that being said I have multiple times been put on edge when a conducter suddenly feels the urge to do something diffrent by either doing a faster tempo because he wants more energy OR holding a fermata exceptionally long which could totally stump the orchestra if someones not paying attention. That happens from time to time, usually less in professional orchestras but it can be equally funny either way.
The reason why he does something like that and ignores what he did during the rehearsals could be for alot of reasons. A well renowned conducter could do it because he's in the music and moment and wanna create an experience very much like an artist painting a picture from whats feels right at the moment. Therefor he could do drastic changes that could seem rushed if your not on alert but that could also result in certain tension and concentration from the musicians which often leads to magic moments in the music.

Valery Gergiev which is a famous russian conductor, he sometimes uses a conducter that rehearse the orchestra for him so he can arrive directly at the concert. The orchestra is then ready and rehearsed for him to simply create magic in the moment. That's one way of creating tension!  :lol I should say that's not the only reason though, he also do that so he can jump from orchestra to orchestra instead of being stuck for a week at a location. Sounds crazy but he's also not your regular famous conducter. I mean you wouldn't wanna mess with this dude right:



When I was in music school we had the opportunity to be conducted by Okko Kamu which is a famous finnish conducter. We rehearsed monday to thursday and had the concert on thursday night. He was during the whole week very precised on how he was to conducted certain sections in Rimsky-Korsakovs - Scheherazade and pretty harsh too which lead to everyone being on alert. During the concert he just totally fucking ignored everything we rehearsed and went insane with his "now let's create some magic" so there was some tension to say the least but my god the orchestra sounded good. He forced every musician in the orchestra to be in the moment and to do their absolute best. A very cool yet nerve wrecking experience.
 
Another reason a conducter diverts from what he did during the rehearsals could also be because he simply forgets what he did on certain sections. In a professional orchestra that usually results in nothing because most are alert and experienced but in a amateur orchestra that could lead to total havoc.
I have countless of times been fooled by the conducters because he promised to cue in my part....

You see as a percussionist the one thing your exceptionally good at in an orchestra is counting bars when your not playing. Fuck the actual craft, it's the bar counting that's important, slightly exaggerating that part but you get my point. :) We for the most part have insane amount of pauses but we still have to know were in the music we are so we can play our parts at the right moment, which sounds a bit strange why you shouldn't do that but trust me you get lost and shit happens. Counting bars is simply a survival thing as a percussionist. If it's a ”classic” piece that you know very well OR music with lots of melodies to follow it's easier to know were you are if you get lost in the counting process because if you've done your ”homework” you have listened alot on the music before and know the sections before your ”part” so to speak. It's much tougher though if the music your playing is a contemporary piece that's freshly baked from the composer and dosen't have reference music. Then your stuck at counting bars but if you then have a nice counducter that actual knowledge the percussion section (which often is not the case but that's another discussion) he knows the important part in your section and helps to “cue” you in. If not then you can always just ask him to cue you in which they for the most have no problem with.

A quick example of another thing that is usually diffrent from classical pieces and modern pieces is that they notate support melodies in the percussion score more often in classical pieces like this for example:

2nd movement in Scheherazade:


That trombone part before is something that's very nice to have highlighted so even if your counting failed you still have something to go after. Btw Piatti=Cymbals

In modern music they're not often so generous to notate support melodies in the percussion score and you could end up with something like this:



That leads to why I said “fooled by the conducter” because he can totally forget your cue sometimes OR he simply ignores your presence entirely which is not a fun experience especially not when you have your cymbals in the ready position, ready to nail that part like a fucking hero man and everyone knows an epic cymbal crash is about to happen, even the audience can see what's about to happen but it dosen't....because the counducter forgets your cue and you stand there like a fool. You know deep down inside that you should've hit the cymbals 3 bars ago, you feel it in your gut. So you quietly sits down and act like nothing happend until you look at your colleagues that's on the floor laughing. Again slightly exaggerated that part, they're pretty reserved during the concert. In the dressing room after not so much.

There's also the reversed version which happens sometimes were you actually nails the cymbal part like a true champ. "Meh he just forgot the cue" is what your thinking in your little bubble and you reacted and saved the situation, you feel good about it, I mean really good until you get a strange face from the conducter and you realise you was 20 bars before the actual part...the reaction from your colleagues is pretty much the same as the first version although slightly more brutal....

The last version is why you hesitate to play the first version without a cue....

but as they say, shit happens!

Sry for ranting!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 10:16:56 AM by MrBoom_shack-a-lack »
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Dumb Question ?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 10:58:58 AM »
Reading music was the worst thing about my music degree. I hated it with a passion. I was so bad at it and so much so that I never practiced.