Poll

How big of a problem is Racial Profiling in law enforcement?

HUGE Problem, happens all the time, all over the place.
8 (30.8%)
Problematic - happens in more places than it should.
11 (42.3%)
Not much of a problem - overblown in the media
7 (26.9%)
No problem - there is no racial profiling
0 (0%)
Obligatory "Kevin Moore" Selection  (i.e. "I'm not sure...")
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: September 28, 2014, 01:27:31 PM

Author Topic: Racial Profiling?  (Read 5713 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2014, 07:31:05 AM »
if I'm nice to a white guy, does that make me a racist? 

Of course, because that is the most logical conclusion, and everybody is a latent racist.  And studies!  So, yes, you are most definitely a racist.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2014, 09:00:21 AM »
Well, if you're nicer to a white person than you would be to a non-white person, all other things being equal, then yeah, that would be racism.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2014, 09:09:55 AM »
Exactly.  You need the 'all other things being equal.'  You need the comparison between how I treat people of different skin colors.  You can't conclude racial bias based on one single scenario. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2014, 09:23:31 AM »
if I'm nice to a white guy, does that make me a racist? 

Of course, because that is the most logical conclusion, and everybody is a latent racist.  And studies!  So, yes, you are most definitely a racist.

Nice to see you mocking me.  :tup

Yeah, but no, you haven't done that.  You're taking a lot of steps in your head on this one.   Show me one piece of evidence that CONCLUSIVELY proves that the cop was thinking race in that video. ONE PIECE.  Studies show that over 96% of the population is attracted to the opposite gender.  If I'm shown a video that shows a person who is CLEARLY male kissing another person who's gender is not clear, can I say anything other than "the likelihood is that the other person is a woman"?  I cannot say FOR CERTAIN that it is, and when you add to the equation that I could find out if that other person is a woman or not, why wouldn't I before casting aspersions on that male?   That's the part you seem to be ignoring; we CAN close the gap.  Why are you so obstinate about getting additional information before jumping to conclusions?

Are you just going to ignore what I've written, and the things I point to, or what? You could even debate what I've pointed to as showing that, but instead, all you say is I haven't done so, or even tried to do so. And the woman analogy is bad, because in this example, we would know that the guy is kissing a woman. What would be more apt is to say, we see a guy kissing a girl, and to say then that that guy is attracted to women. We know the race of the victim. We know the stigmas and issues black people, specifically black men, face in our society. We see those stigmas and issues being perfectly portrayed for us in a recorded video. We can read his body language - which is quite unambiguous and clear cut and very meaningful. We know how racism works in the human mind, how reflexive it is, and how it's obvious that the cop would have seen the color of the guys skin, and how scientifically, we know this would have neurological ramifications.

I'm not obstinate about getting more information. I have gotten more information, and the additional information only backs up that this was a shooting inspired by racial stereotypes and racist fears in the shooter. Everything I have seen points a single direction. And all you have to do, is provide some indication that it points in another directino. Not pure conjecture that it might point in another direction, but actual, tangible evidence. Otherwise we could get into some very meaningless, fruitless debates about, well, maybe the world is the Matrix and nothing is real, or God is the Devil and he's tricking us all.

Show me one piece of evidence that conclusively shows me that you are conscious. Just one piece, that's all I'm asking for. Simple, right?

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I've given specific information; namely, the actions of the black guy who got shot, and the actions and justifications of the police officer who did the shooting. It is not "well the guys black, so it must be racism!" It's "that guy did absolutely nothing threatening, he did was he was asked to do, and he got shot becuase the officer feared for his safety. From studies on racism, we know that black people are inherently seen as more threatening than whites, and that this inspires more fears for safety. Ergo, to fear for your safety in the given situation is to display racist tendancies and habits."

You're winding me up, right?  That may all be true in theory, and it may all be grounds for the hypothesis which you subsequently prove, but to act on that?   That is almost negligence.   That is abhorrent to me that you would suggest making decisions on that one persons' life and livelihood based on general theories and suppositions.   That is "witch hunt" territory.   GET THE DATA.

To act on what? Are you ignoring what I've said yet again about not going after this guy for a "racist" action, but going after him because regardless of if it was racially motivated, what he did was wrong? I'm not "witch hunting" him on racism. I'm pointing to this, and other examples, as a trend in society that we need to examine socially and culturally to try and prevent these things from happening.

This probably won't mean much to you, but 99.999% of the time, we'd be agreeing about the principles here. I agree with your rational, in almost all cases. This specific case, though, struck me in a way as nothing I've ever seen in a police video before. What I saw was the perfect example of racism.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:52:01 AM by Scheavo »

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2014, 09:31:28 AM »
Exactly.  You need the 'all other things being equal.'  You need the comparison between how I treat people of different skin colors.  You can't conclude racial bias based on one single scenario.

For one, I think we can call something an act of racism without calling the person themselves a racist bigot. Just like someone can be acting stupid, very stupid, and not actually be stupid.

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Thought experiment: if I'm nice to a white guy, does that make me a racist?  I mean, it's entirely possible that I'm only being nice to him because he's white, after all.  Maybe if he was black I would just punch him in the face.  Maybe that's my thing: I'm polite to white people, and I physically assault black people.  That's certainly a possibility.  But can you jump to that conclusion based on my being nice to a white guy?  Of course not.  It might be that I'm just a nice guy.  And if you see me punching a black guy in the face, it might be that I'm just a jerk who punches people.  You can't accuse me of racial bias based on any one isolated incident; you need context.  You need comparison.

I don't consider this a very good corollary. It's not just that I saw the cop shoot the black guy. I saw the reasons for why he shot the guy. The cop gives them to the guy he just shot! And I can compare his reasons with what actually happened. It's all recorded on video. And those reasons he gives are exactly what we would expect someone who has ingrained prejudice against black people to give. We have the context. A more fair analogy, in my opinion, would be if I saw you walking down the street, and a black guy is walking by you non-chalanatly and non-threateningly, when you suddenly punch him in the face and justify it by saying the black guy was being aggressive and you felt threatened. If I walked by too late and only saw the punching, I wouldn't be able to say. If I didn't know the reasons you gave me, I wouldn't be able to say. But in this case, I have both, and what happened.

To be clear, and this applies to STadler, and I've said as much already, I have no problem with this line of thinking. It's one I normally apply in 99.999% of cases. I just don't think this actual logic applies to this case very well, because of all the information we have before us. And I feel as if that information is being ignored.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:49:17 AM by Scheavo »

Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2014, 09:35:22 AM »
if I'm nice to a white guy, does that make me a racist? 

Of course, because that is the most logical conclusion, and everybody is a latent racist.  And studies!  So, yes, you are most definitely a racist.

Nice to see you mocking me.  :tup

But for the fact that that is an accurate synopsis of EXACTLY what you have said in this thread and the related one.  Sarcasm aside, that is your position, is it not?  Or are you going to backtrack, realizing that when presented so starkly, it just sounds...well, horrible and repugnant, actually.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2014, 09:47:19 AM »
if I'm nice to a white guy, does that make me a racist? 

Of course, because that is the most logical conclusion, and everybody is a latent racist.  And studies!  So, yes, you are most definitely a racist.

Nice to see you mocking me.  :tup

But for the fact that that is an accurate synopsis of EXACTLY what you have said in this thread and the related one.  Sarcasm aside, that is your position, is it not?  Or are you going to backtrack, realizing that when presented so starkly, it just sounds...well, horrible and repugnant, actually.

This is apparently what people would like me to be saying, and maybe it's what other people say or think, but it is not once what I have said. I have even been clear about not saying this. I have not once said that it's racism becuase the cop is white and the "perp" was black. I have infact listed a whole bunch of reasons, contextual reasons as Jaffas asked about, for why this fits the studies which are out there on this.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2014, 09:52:49 AM »
I doubt that anyone would "like" you to be saying that, but that does not change the fact that my assessment of your position boils down to: you DID say that.  But whatever.  I don't have time for another round of "moving targets" today.
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Online Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2014, 10:53:58 AM »
Are you just going to ignore what I've written, and the things I point to, or what? You could even debate what I've pointed to as showing that, but instead, all you say is I haven't done so, or even tried to do so. And the woman analogy is bad, because in this example, we would know that the guy is kissing a woman. What would be more apt is to say, we see a guy kissing a girl, and to say then that that guy is attracted to women. We know the race of the victim. We know the stigmas and issues black people, specifically black men, face in our society. We see those stigmas and issues being perfectly portrayed for us in a recorded video. We can read his body language - which is quite unambiguous and clear cut and very meaningful. We know how racism works in the human mind, how reflexive it is, and how it's obvious that the cop would have seen the color of the guys skin, and how scientifically, we know this would have neurological ramifications.

Stop.  I'm not ignoring what you've written.  You've cited two things:  existential studies that show patterns, and your viewing of the video.  NEITHER do what I suggested is necessary, and that is provide a direct link IN THIS CASE to the idea that the cop is acting on race.   Studies show some people act on race (sometimes implicitly).  The man in the video is black.  The cop acted.   That's it.  You are missing a crucial connector there.  CRUCIAL.  All your studies do NOT show that IN THAT CASE that cop acted BECAUSE the perp was black (and wouldn't have acted that way if the perp WASN'T black).   You have no proof of the assertion that the cop is part of the "some people" of the study.   You can allege they do, you can pretend they do, you can whatever, but they DO NOT PROVE.  They just do not. 

As for the woman analogy, read what I said:  I explicitly said you cannot tell it is a woman from the video (like you cannot tell the cop acted out of race in the video). 

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I'm not obstinate about getting more information. I have gotten more information, and the additional information only backs up that this was a shooting inspired by racial stereotypes and racist fears in the shooter. Everything I have seen points a single direction. And all you have to do, is provide some indication that it points in another directino. Not pure conjecture that it might point in another direction, but actual, tangible evidence. Otherwise we could get into some very meaningless, fruitless debates about, well, maybe the world is the Matrix and nothing is real, or God is the Devil and he's tricking us all.

What information?  Studies that show general trends?   "Trends" aren't proof.  If you looked at the stock market today, and the stock market from 2005, it is "trending" up.  That analysis completely and utterly fails to acknowledge, detect or account for the near-catastrophic collapse in 2008.   As I am not saying that I know what happened, only that there are multiple possibilities and that we cannot tell from the video, I don't have to provide anything more than I already have.  I am saying we need more proof before we can settle on any one, as you have.   You actually may be right at the end of the day; it would just be dumb luck though, or statistics, because you cannot tell from the information we have presently.

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Show me one piece of evidence that conclusively shows me that you are conscious. Just one piece, that's all I'm asking for. Simple, right?


Really?  That's where you're going?   To something that has been debated on multiple levels by better minds than you and I combined for centuries?   That's your analogy?   Bring it down to earth.   How the cop acted is not nearly so existential as the existence of consciousness.  We're down in the gutter with something more simple.  I've given you the best analogy I can (the "trend" that most men desire women, and a video of a man kissing another, unidentifiable human, and drawing the conclusion that it is in fact a woman based on the trend), and you changed the premise then disregarded it.    I can't help you any more than I already have.   

And I am conscious because I feel pain.  Pain at having to explain this over and over.  :)


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To act on what? Are you ignoring what I've said yet again about not going after this guy for a "racist" action, but going after him because regardless of if it was racially motivated, what he did was wrong? I'm not "witch hunting" him on racism. I'm pointing to this, and other examples, as a trend in society that we need to examine socially and culturally to try and prevent these things from happening.

We're not (or at least I'm not) talking about going after the cop; I've already conceded 15 posts ago that he should be held accountable for his actions.   I don't see any reason he should have shot that guy (but in keeping with my argument, the video is NOT the be all and end all of proof; we still need to do the due diligence, though I don't mind if we shift the burden to the cop to show cause).   And don't change the premise, Scheavo; you're getting boxed into a corner and modifying the premise:  you are (or WERE) absolutely witch hunting him on racism.  You asserted, multiple times, that this was a racially motivated shooting.   Couch it in whatever language you want, that is the essence of your point, and that point is not supported by ANY of the evidence presented so far. 

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This probably won't mean much to you, but 99.999% of the time, we'd be agreeing about the principles here. I agree with your rational, in almost all cases. This specific case, though, struck me in a way as nothing I've ever seen in a police video before. What I saw was the perfect example of racism.

Prove it.   Please, for the 10th time, prove it.  Prove that IN THAT INSTANCE, the cop acted BECAUSE the perp was black (and more importantly, would NOT have acted as he did if the perp was NOT black).  Please go ahead.  I'm giving you every opportunity and you're not answering the bell.  (Oh, and by the way, one paragraph earlier you claimed you were not witch-hunting him on racism, then proclaimed that this video is the PERFECT example of racism, with no proof whatsoever.  Seems like the perfect example of witch-hunting to me.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 10:59:35 AM by Stadler »

Online El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2014, 11:05:21 AM »
I've been largely staying out of this, as it seems you guys are more into the philosophical aspect of proof and whatnot. I am curious what sort of evidence would actually lead you (Stadler) to conclude that race was a major factor in the shooting (we are still talking about the seatbelt guy, right?). You might have fine-tuned your position to the point that you think it was but just want proof, but I'm not sure. Does the cop have to jump out of his car and yell "DIE YOU FILTHY STINKING PERSON OF AFRICAN ANCESTRY!!!" before plugging him? It just seems like we're not going to have conclusive proof either way, but at some point you do have to approach things from the perspective of, well, let's say reasonable doubt.
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Online Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2014, 11:09:44 AM »
For one, I think we can call something an act of racism without calling the person themselves a racist bigot. Just like someone can be acting stupid, very stupid, and not actually be stupid.

That's not a perfect analogy, though, is it?  There are less nuances to the word "racist" than there are "stupid".  I am far from stupid, and yet I have said, colloquially, that I "just did something stupid" but really meant, "I just did something I probably shouldn't have done".   I tend to think in the first case, as Zappa would say, "you are what you is".   
 
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And those reasons he gives are exactly what we would expect someone who has ingrained prejudice against black people to give.

So what?   Since when is "expectation" proof?  I would "expect" an ex-husband to be pissed at the ex-wife who left him.  If she dies, though, that "expectation" is not enough to convict.   I would "expect" a person with substance abuse issues to assert his "sobriety", but that is not enough to guarantee that the person IS sober. "Expectations" can only lead us in the direction of further data collection, either to back up those expectations or refute them. 

And not the least of which, how do you know that cop has "ingrained prejudice against black people"?  Because of your studies?  Not ALL people conform to your studies, Scheavo. 

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To be clear, and this applies to STadler, and I've said as much already, I have no problem with this line of thinking. It's one I normally apply in 99.999% of cases. I just don't think this actual logic applies to this case very well, because of all the information we have before us. And I feel as if that information is being ignored.

11th time. WHAT INFORMATION????????????

Online Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2014, 11:13:38 AM »


This is apparently what people would like me to be saying, and maybe it's what other people say or think, but it is not once what I have said. I have even been clear about not saying this. I have not once said that it's racism becuase the cop is white and the "perp" was black. I have infact listed a whole bunch of reasons, contextual reasons as Jaffas asked about, for why this fits the studies which are out there on this.

No you did not.  The only connection you have between the cop and the studies is THAT the cop is white and the perp is black.  That's my point all along.  You have NOT "in fact listed a whole bunch of reasons".  You've made assertions that could only be true if the cop is racist, but you haven't applied those assertions to the cop to begin with.  That he might have said he thought the man acted "aggressively" doesn't automatically make the studies applicable.  I think you're acting aggressively here, but that doesn't make this conversation "racist". 

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2014, 11:18:39 AM »
I've been largely staying out of this, as it seems you guys are more into the philosophical aspect of proof and whatnot. I am curious what sort of evidence would actually lead you (Stadler) to conclude that race was a major factor in the shooting (we are still talking about the seatbelt guy, right?). You might have fine-tuned your position to the point that you think it was but just want proof, but I'm not sure. Does the cop have to jump out of his car and yell "DIE YOU FILTHY STINKING PERSON OF AFRICAN ANCESTRY!!!" before plugging him? It just seems like we're not going to have conclusive proof either way, but at some point you do have to approach things from the perspective of, well, let's say reasonable doubt.

I've answered that; I want SOMETHING more than "I have these studies, and I've looked at the video, and I KNOW".   Peter Hitchens has a great quote that I just heard yesterday: "There is perhaps nothing so terrifying as someone who KNOWS they are right."   There's nothing that is not anecdotal or biased in the eye of the observer that links ANY of those studies to the specific case at hand.  There's nothing here that anyone with intellectual honesty can assert as having KNOWN, short of a) there is a man who is black and b) that man gets shot for some as yet unknown reason. 

I'm not 100% to the point that it's just a matter of proof; I think there are three or four possible scenarios, all in keeping with reason and analytical tools like Occam's Razor, and am simply saying it is premature to settle on any one, especially with the rationale that "I saw the video and I KNOW." 

Online El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2014, 11:27:02 AM »

I've answered that; I want SOMETHING more than "I have these studies, and I've looked at the video, and I KNOW". 
That's great, and on a logical level I agree with you. At the same time, we would both agree that Johnny being scared shitless because the guy was black is a distinct possibility, and one that should be considered. Is there ever going to be reasonable evidence to that, short of my scenario?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Online Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2014, 11:42:12 AM »

I've answered that; I want SOMETHING more than "I have these studies, and I've looked at the video, and I KNOW". 
That's great, and on a logical level I agree with you. At the same time, we would both agree that Johnny being scared shitless because the guy was black is a distinct possibility, and one that should be considered. Is there ever going to be reasonable evidence to that, short of my scenario?

Of course that is a distinct possibility.   But not the only one, and just because it exists doesn't mean we can start tarring people with that brush.

And I believe there is reasonable evidence.  I don't need the cop to be wearing a Klan hood when he pulls the trigger.  Has he ever been in a situation like that before? How did he act?  Has there ever been any instance where his judgment may have been shown to be influenced by race?  Are there any other factors that may have influenced his actions/reactions? 

And just so we're clear, in case this comes to trial during the three weeks you are a judge, the answers to these questions matter not to the other question:  he is likely FLAT OUT WRONG for shooting that guy.   The cop needs to answer to those accusations regardless.   

Online El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2014, 12:09:10 PM »
Quote from: The Honorable Judge Barto
Never before in my entire 20 day judicial career have I seen such a heinous crime. The actions of this vicious man represent a violent stain on the community, and the full penalty of the law is scarecely sufficient for his ghastly crimes.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2014, 08:25:57 PM »
I don't consider this a very good corollary. It's not just that I saw the cop shoot the black guy. I saw the reasons for why he shot the guy. The cop gives them to the guy he just shot! And I can compare his reasons with what actually happened. It's all recorded on video. And those reasons he gives are exactly what we would expect someone who has ingrained prejudice against black people to give. We have the context. A more fair analogy, in my opinion, would be if I saw you walking down the street, and a black guy is walking by you non-chalanatly and non-threateningly, when you suddenly punch him in the face and justify it by saying the black guy was being aggressive and you felt threatened. If I walked by too late and only saw the punching, I wouldn't be able to say. If I didn't know the reasons you gave me, I wouldn't be able to say. But in this case, I have both, and what happened.

None of this addresses the fact that you're only dealing with one isolated scenario. 

Again: do you have any evidence to suggest that this specific cop would have behaved differently if the guy had been white?  I mean, if you've got a video replicating this exact set of circumstances with a white guy, and the cop doesn't shoot him, then yeah, I think you might have proven racial bias pretty conclusively.  But all you actually seem to have is the assumption that things would have gone differently with a white 'perp'. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2014, 09:16:01 PM »
I don't consider this a very good corollary. It's not just that I saw the cop shoot the black guy. I saw the reasons for why he shot the guy. The cop gives them to the guy he just shot! And I can compare his reasons with what actually happened. It's all recorded on video. And those reasons he gives are exactly what we would expect someone who has ingrained prejudice against black people to give. We have the context. A more fair analogy, in my opinion, would be if I saw you walking down the street, and a black guy is walking by you non-chalanatly and non-threateningly, when you suddenly punch him in the face and justify it by saying the black guy was being aggressive and you felt threatened. If I walked by too late and only saw the punching, I wouldn't be able to say. If I didn't know the reasons you gave me, I wouldn't be able to say. But in this case, I have both, and what happened.

None of this addresses the fact that you're only dealing with one isolated scenario. 

Again: do you have any evidence to suggest that this specific cop would have behaved differently if the guy had been white?  I mean, if you've got a video replicating this exact set of circumstances with a white guy, and the cop doesn't shoot him, then yeah, I think you might have proven racial bias pretty conclusively.  But all you actually seem to have is the assumption that things would have gone differently with a white 'perp'.

Jaffa, I just gotta say, you're a breath of fresh air, even though you're taking the same position:

I don't think "conclusively" is something you can ever truly achieve in a case like this. Just like I can't conclusively demonstrate my own consciousness to you (which is where and why I brought this in Stadler). This would require proving what this man was thinking. If our requirement is conclusive and completely undeniable proof, we would get get nowhere. What we do have to examine is extensive, and as I argued above, goes well above, "well, he is black, and the guy was white." It's the body language present, the mindset and report the police officer gives*, and everything we know about how this would work (psychology, neuroscience, sociology, etc.). Race is relevant in this, but it is not the reason I think it was a racist event. If that were my reasoning, then I would have said that the shooting of Michael Brown was racially motivated. But I never did, becuase as you rightfully point out, that alone does not make racism.

I'm open and willing to hear other evidence. I'm open and willing to hear reasonable things to believe in. But I'm being asked to ignore what I can see, in full context, right in front of my own eyes, with further evidence and supporting theories, just because there's some purely speculative way to look at it differently.

And really, seeing as how I don't think this should effect the guys life - other than suggesting to him that maybe he should introspectively examine himself - I don't see how it matters all that much if I am making such an assumption. No harm, no foul. Meanwhile, it seems important to me to acknowledge and attempt to deal with racism in our society.



*
Relevant dialogue:

When the officer is telling Jones why he shot him:

"“Well, you dove headfirst back into your car,” Groubert says.

....

"“Then you jumped back out,” the trooper says. “I’m telling you to get outta your car.”


Explaining it to someone else soon after:

"“I pulled him over for a seat belt violation,” Groubert is heard telling that publicly unidentified person.

“Before I could even get out of my car, he jumped out. Stared at me.

“And as I jumped out and identified myself as I approached him, he jumped headfirst back into his car.

“I started retracting back towards the rear of his vehicle, telling him, ‘Get out the car. Let me see your hands.’

“He jumped out of the car. I saw something black in his hands,” Groubert says. “I ran to the other side of the car yelling at him and he kept coming towards me.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2014/10/03/3351267/longer-video-has-more-details.html#storylink=cpy
"

You can directly compare that to what Jones did. He is calm enough to know this is all on video, so I think this is a compelling testimony of what he did feel at the moment. He's even so scared of the man, that after shooting him and incapacitating him, and finding no weapons, keeps him in handcuffs.

Interestingly enough, the investigator thought race was important enough to ask about it rather quickly.


Offline Scheavo

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2014, 09:36:59 PM »
How did he act? 

....

Yet if I say that, it's ignored and I'm told I am saying it's only because the guy he shot is black.

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We're not (or at least I'm not) talking about going after the cop; I've already conceded 15 posts ago that he should be held accountable for his actions...Scheavo; you're getting boxed into a corner and modifying the premise:  you are (or WERE) absolutely witch hunting him on racism.  You asserted, multiple times, that this was a racially motivated shooting.   Couch it in whatever language you want, that is the essence of your point, and that point is not supported by ANY of the evidence presented so far. 


It's just not, though. I've given or referenced more than what you're pointing to. See above, and the rest of the post.

I know. I agreed with that. I then said I think we should keep it in mind when discussing racism in society, where this is relevant. You starting arguing against me as if I never agreed with you - which was literally the first sentence - and then say I've boxed myself into a corner. It was in the other thread, but like I said, I'm getting the two muddled:

I am not arguing that race is not a factor.  I am arguing against the knee jerk reaction, and against ANY argument that says "we don't need any more information, I KNOW what the answer is."   When you clearly don't KNOW, you GUESS.  SUSPECT.  BELIEVE.  (You in the general sense, of course, not referring to any one person here).

I think this is a good point in some contexts, and very important ones. In the actual prosecution of the crime. Hate crimes are bad laws, in my opinion, and we shouldn't try and prosecute people based upon what they believed or thought.




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"There is perhaps nothing so terrifying as someone who KNOWS they are right."

And do you know you're right about that? Either way, in the spirit of what Hitchens is saying, it doesn't apply to me.

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I can't help you any more than I already have.   

Thanks, but I don't need your help  :tup. Rather revealing statement though.

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11th time. WHAT INFORMATION????????????

No you did not.  The only connection you have between the cop and the studies is THAT the cop is white and the perp is black.  That's my point all along.  You have NOT "in fact listed a whole bunch of reasons".

Read the above. I have the dialogue. I have the self-reported mental state of the cop. I have the video of the body language and actions of Mr Jones. I do in fact have much more than "the cop is white and the perp is black." I have his actions, I have the context, I have a lot more than you're saying I do.

And that is quite fucking frankly, the last thing I'm going to say to you about this particular matter.


And Bosk:

All of this, and my post to Jaffa, fits for you. No moving target at all. I've been consistent, very consistent, throughout this discussion, going all the way back to Michael Brown in the other thread.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2014, 10:51:16 PM »
Jaffa, I just gotta say, you're a breath of fresh air

That's nice to hear!  Thanks!  Now, pardon me while I go back to arguing with you.   :D

I like weird hypothetical scenarios, so here's another one: let's pretend that the guy actually was white.  Everything else about the situation is completely identical - the 'suspect' behaved the same way, the cop reacted the same way, the 'suspect' ended up getting shot, and the cop ended up saying the exact same things afterward.  In this case, we obviously can't assume that the guy being black played a role in the shooting - after all, he isn't black anymore.  So we have to come up with some alternate explanation for what happened.  I mean, what would possess a cop to shoot someone in a situation like that?  What would cause his perception to be so warped that he would feel threatened by such non-threatening behavior and feel the need to react with force?  What would cause him to handle it this way? 

Now, before you answer any of those questions, let me get to my point: why don't we ask those same questions when it's a black guy?  They're still valid questions.  The fact that you have one possible answer (IE racism) doesn't mean you should automatically settle for that answer.  I mean, yes, racism would certainly explain what happened here, but if we're going to be citing this as an example of racial profiling, shouldn't we try to exhaust other possibilities first?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 12:35:33 AM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2014, 06:52:31 AM »
I don't think "conclusively" is something you can ever truly achieve in a case like this. Just like I can't conclusively demonstrate my own consciousness to you (which is where and why I brought this in Stadler). This would require proving what this man was thinking. If our requirement is conclusive and completely undeniable proof, we would get get nowhere. What we do have to examine is extensive, and as I argued above, goes well above, "well, he is black, and the guy was white." It's the body language present, the mindset and report the police officer gives*, and everything we know about how this would work (psychology, neuroscience, sociology, etc.). Race is relevant in this, but it is not the reason I think it was a racist event. If that were my reasoning, then I would have said that the shooting of Michael Brown was racially motivated. But I never did, becuase as you rightfully point out, that alone does not make racism.

But understand, I'm not saying "conclusively".  I'm saying "something more than "I just know".   

All the things you are mentioning are NOT proof;  they are too dependent on other things, not least of which is "camera angle".  Certainly the fact we are having this conversation in and of itself shows that the "everything we know of this world" is a useless standard here because all those things are subjective, contextual, and multifaceted.   We're going in circles now.

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I'm open and willing to hear other evidence. I'm open and willing to hear reasonable things to believe in. But I'm being asked to ignore what I can see, in full context, right in front of my own eyes, with further evidence and supporting theories, just because there's some purely speculative way to look at it differently.

Understanding (and it is clear you do not) that YOUR position is purely speculative as well.   And I'm sorry, when you're dealing with the gravity of issues like a police involved shooting, the likely ruination of a police officer's career, and potential prison time, I think it is in keeping with 230 years of established jurisprudence to ask for more than ONE PERSON'S (and a person with an agenda) speculation to carry the day.   

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And really, seeing as how I don't think this should effect the guys life - other than suggesting to him that maybe he should introspectively examine himself - I don't see how it matters all that much if I am making such an assumption. No harm, no foul. Meanwhile, it seems important to me to acknowledge and attempt to deal with racism in our society.

Well, in the context of this thread, of course it doesn't mean anything.   But would you take the same approach the other way?  If it's okay for you assume the cop is acting out of racism - hey, no harm no foul - why isn't it okay for the cop to assume the black guy is up to no good?  Assumptions are harmful, and jumping to conclusions is harmful.   Yes context is important, but I don't think we're arguing solely in the context of this thread.  At least I'm not.  If you choose to have your head in the sand as to potential cause and effect, I can't help that.    But I know that if I was on my job, and I acted in a way that had five different - equally viable and equally valid - scenarios, I'd be pretty pissed off if someone analyzing the case just started jumping to conclusions as to my motivations and rationales, ESPECIALLY if the downside was me being thought of as "that racist guy" moving forward.  It's a stink that doesn't easily wash off in USA Circa 2014.



Quote
Relevant dialogue:

When the officer is telling Jones why he shot him:

"“Well, you dove headfirst back into your car,” Groubert says.

....

"“Then you jumped back out,” the trooper says. “I’m telling you to get outta your car.”


Explaining it to someone else soon after:

"“I pulled him over for a seat belt violation,” Groubert is heard telling that publicly unidentified person.

“Before I could even get out of my car, he jumped out. Stared at me.

“And as I jumped out and identified myself as I approached him, he jumped headfirst back into his car.

“I started retracting back towards the rear of his vehicle, telling him, ‘Get out the car. Let me see your hands.’

“He jumped out of the car. I saw something black in his hands,” Groubert says. “I ran to the other side of the car yelling at him and he kept coming towards me.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2014/10/03/3351267/longer-video-has-more-details.html#storylink=cpy
"

I've read that; what about that says "race"?  That he used the color "black"?   Is that all it takes to indicate racism these days?   

Quote
You can directly compare that to what Jones did. He is calm enough to know this is all on video, so I think this is a compelling testimony of what he did feel at the moment. He's even so scared of the man, that after shooting him and incapacitating him, and finding no weapons, keeps him in handcuffs.

Interestingly enough, the investigator thought race was important enough to ask about it rather quickly.

Yes, because after Brown, HE'D be accused of people like you of being a racist if he DIDN'T ask.  You know, the "assumptions" thing.   "Well, you didn't even bother to ask if it was a race-motivated incident; based on a study from 1976, that indicates you are a racist."

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2014, 07:01:46 AM »
It's just not, though. I've given or referenced more than what you're pointing to. See above, and the rest of the post.

I know. I agreed with that. I then said I think we should keep it in mind when discussing racism in society, where this is relevant. You starting arguing against me as if I never agreed with you - which was literally the first sentence - and then say I've boxed myself into a corner. It was in the other thread, but like I said, I'm getting the two muddled:

Last time, and I'm done with this.  I don't know if you're being a troll or what.  But "He dove into the car" doesn't point to race in any way, shape or form.   I can't say it any other way, NOTHING that you've cited points directly to race. 

I think this is a good point in some contexts, and very important ones. In the actual prosecution of the crime. Hate crimes are bad laws, in my opinion, and we shouldn't try and prosecute people based upon what they believed or thought.

Yet...


Quote
Quote
"There is perhaps nothing so terrifying as someone who KNOWS they are right."

And do you know you're right about that? Either way, in the spirit of what Hitchens is saying, it doesn't apply to me.

It absolutely, 100% directly applies to EXACTLY you.   Google the debate the quote came from (it was a debate between P-Hitch and C-Hitch on, among other things, Iraq War and God) and he was talking about people that were so convinced they were right that they didn't need any more information. And you have said - REPEATEDLY - that you "know" what happened.   And you don't.   You may THINK you do, but you don't. 

Quote
Quote
I can't help you any more than I already have.   

Thanks, but I don't need your help  :tup. Rather revealing statement though.

Haha, so doing the same thing with me, eh? You know what I'm thinking?  The statement was intended to show that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that it is my poor explanation skills as opposed to anything on your side.  But if you're going to mock the olive branch, well... talk about revealing. 

Quote
Read the above. I have the dialogue. I have the self-reported mental state of the cop. I have the video of the body language and actions of Mr Jones. I do in fact have much more than "the cop is white and the perp is black." I have his actions, I have the context, I have a lot more than you're saying I do.

And that is quite fucking frankly, the last thing I'm going to say to you about this particular matter.

Nothing you've stated does anything that you claim it does.  Where in the dialogue is there a reference - even implied - to race?   "The last thing"?   When is the FIRST thing?  You haven't said anything of substance.  You keep saying "the video" and there is NOTHING in the video that justifies your position.   


Quote
All of this, and my post to Jaffa, fits for you. No moving target at all. I've been consistent, very consistent, throughout this discussion, going all the way back to Michael Brown in the other thread.

Consistent.  I'll give you that.   Consistently failing to justify your argument.  There is NOTHING in the video that justifies your position.   

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2014, 07:44:05 AM »
I'm formally withdrawing myself from this discussion because I'm really not comfortable with the tone of it.  If we can't play nice, I don't want to play at all.

Scheavo, if you'd like to continue our sidebar via PM, I would be happy to do so.  Let me know.  :)
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2014, 07:52:22 AM »
I agree.  Stadler, your tone is coming off as confrontational and adversarial.  This is not a courtroom, it's a discussion forum.  No reason to impugn Scheavo's character or to suggest that he is trolling.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2014, 12:29:44 PM »
It should be coming off that way, because it was intended that way.  None of it was directed at Jaffa, though, and so to him I apologize.  Hopefully he'll have better luck in sidebar PM.  I've made my point (multiple times now) so I'll give it a rest. 

Offline Implode

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2014, 12:32:17 PM »
I don't understand how you two can continue to go at it for this long in two threads. Scheavo, there's nothing you can say to convince Stradler, (and vice versa I guess), so might as well just spend your time on something more worthwhile.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2014, 12:36:44 PM »
It should be coming off that way, because it was intended that way. 
There's no need for that here.  Scheavo certainly wasn't posting in that manner.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2014, 04:46:17 PM »
this is the third time I have asked the two of you to stop making the arguments about each other.  it takes two to tango and you both need a break off the p/r dance floor for a week.