Poll

How big of a problem is Racial Profiling in law enforcement?

HUGE Problem, happens all the time, all over the place.
8 (30.8%)
Problematic - happens in more places than it should.
11 (42.3%)
Not much of a problem - overblown in the media
7 (26.9%)
No problem - there is no racial profiling
0 (0%)
Obligatory "Kevin Moore" Selection  (i.e. "I'm not sure...")
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: September 28, 2014, 01:27:31 PM

Author Topic: Racial Profiling?  (Read 4687 times)

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Racial Profiling?
« on: September 23, 2014, 01:27:31 PM »
Pretty simple.  Just wondering what the prevailing opinion is here on the forum.  Do you think racial profiling by police is a HUGE problem, just problematic and in need of fixing, overblown and not as big of an issue as reported, or not a problem at all. 


I'll leave it open for 5 days. 

Offline Implode

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 01:56:36 PM »
I feel like it's not fair to me to vote because I never see any issues first hand, but at the same time that's because I'm middle class white guy. All info I have about this is from POC's giving examples of the issues which I completely believe. It's obvious that it happens, and it's bad, but I'm just not sure to what extent the badness is.

Offline Chino

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 01:58:19 PM »
It's a problem that runs deep in all of society today, whether you want to admit it or not. Everyone's mind defaults to a stereotype. Whether or not someone acts on that is a different story. I'll admit that I racially profile. I profile everyone for anything. I'll profile you based on the shoes you're wearing, and if I profile, I'm sure police and other people in power do too. When I drive through shitty areas in the next city over (Waterbury), I always lock my doors and roll my windows up. If I don't, the first scary looking black person I see reminds me to do so. Not any black person, but a scary black person. There in lies the profiling. It's not the color of the person, but their presentation.

Do I believe all black people are scary? Absolutely not.
Am I judging the black person who made me think to lock my doors? Sadly, yes.
Do I feel unsafe driving through those neighborhoods? Extremely.
Should I feel unsafe in those neighborhoods? Probably. I'm in a nice car in an area where people are most likely carrying weapons and are desperate for food.
Do I have reason to actually believe the stuff I just said? Yes, it's coming out of the mouths of the people I am visiting in the ghetto. They come out to walk me in and walk me out so I don't get jumped. Heck, one of the dudes I go to visit was homeless for six months and used to hold people at gunpoint to get money.

Now I don't know if this is me racially profiling or being racist towards blacks, or if I just feel unsafe in an area that happens to have a 80%+ black population. I like to think it's the second scenario. I mean, I don't see black people and think to myself "look at that porch monkey" or "stupid nigger, get a job" like I think most racist people would. I give others the benefit of the doubt, especially after living with a crip for 6 months. But as a white guy cruising around the slums of Waterbury, I admit that I don't always feel safe.

Looking at nature, profiling is a key element of survival. Different variations of animals in the same species have particular markings indicating clear as day which group they belong too. Tribes all over the world wear specific jewelry or paint to indicate what group they are a part of. It's how we tell who is friend and who is foe. It can be the difference between life and death. I'm not using it as an excuse for profiling as I believe we are smart enough to bypass it, but there is genetic wiring buried within that tells us to be weary of others. However, I think the media and ignorance has generated more hate than any genetic predisposition.

But when the media is shoving these kinds of images down peoples' throats, what do they expect?


Granted, what these people are doing is very wrong and I label them scumbags for doing it, but I sure as hell wouldn't call me racist for making that declaration. But this kind of image undoubtedly adds to the profiling factor and doesn't help the race out at all. I mean, look at the dude to the left. What the fuck is with those pants? You want people to start taking you seriously, try dressing a little seriously first (that's probably me profiling, but that's what this thread is about, so I'll admit it).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 06:39:34 AM by Chino »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 02:00:20 PM »
It's a systemic problem, so it's huge, like all other systemic problems.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 02:30:15 PM »
It's a problem that runs deep in all of society today, whether you want to admit it or not.

Please don't say it that way; that casts those that have some legitimate doubt - if not into the existence then at least to the extent - as some sort of delusional paranoids.  I am neither, and yet I do not believe it "runs deep in all of society today" and that's not a question of "admitting" anything.   It exists, it is something that has to be dealt with as long as the numbers are greater than zero, but that's a far cry from "running deep in all of society today". 

I actually live about 30 minutes from Waterbury (and grew up even closer) and your issue is one that is integral to my discussion about looking past the numbers.  Citywide, Waterbury is about 20% black (CT is about 10%), yet you talk of being in an area that is "80%+ black".   How is that information not relevant when looking at traffic stop data?   Isn't it important to know where the stops are taking place?   And what would be the breakdown of the population of the potential stops?   

More existentially, why are we reluctant to just let the data speak for itself?  Why are we not willing to dig deeper and get a truer picture?  It's not as if digging deeper is just going to mine the same gold; the deeper we dig, the LESS the data matches up with the knee-jerk conclusion.   Why wouldn't we want to be right on this?   

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 02:37:46 PM »
To what "data" are you referring?  You keep mentioning data as if you're posting it, but you're not.  Where's the beef?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 02:49:54 PM »
In the second paragraph, I'm referring to the general data that supposedly shows that blacks are pulled over more often than whites, when compared to macro demographic data, but fails, utterly, to provide a cause for that phenomenon on a micro level.  In the third paragraph I'm referring to the data that supposedly shows that blacks are pulled over more than whites AND the data that seeks to explain why that phenomena is happening (such as the Farmington data, that shows that the actual TRAFFIC POOL is almost consistent with the number of blacks pulled over, and therefore they are not inordinately being targeted for a traffic stop.   I actually DID post that data, in a previous post, so it's there.)

Some of the data to which I refer is data that still has to be collected, but isn't because of the very knee jerk reactions that I'm arguing against here, where people think we have the complete story, because it is so "simple".  It's not. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 03:57:20 PM »
I think Chino nailed it. Whether consciously or subconsciously you're going to judge people by their appearance. If you feel your job is to go out proactively and find people that are up to no good (not to be confused with proactive policing theory), then you're probably going to pick one of these two drivers over the other:




I understand why it happens, and I don't even think it's altogether unwarranted. The problem comes when you combine it with other aspects of human nature. With Johnny you have some of the hero factor (to borrow Stadler's descriptor), and you have the good guy vs. bad guy mentality. Once you assume that somebody is more likely to be a bad guy, then you will inevitably start to look for reasons that he is.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 04:23:35 PM »
Here's the thing...  Personally, I judge by "culture" more than by "color"....

When I'm walking out to my car, it doesn't matter what color the guy is....he could be white, black, yellow, red...etc...etc...etc...   But if he's sporting "gangsta" style clothing, looks unbathed, is just 'hangin out' and not really going anywhere, is missing teeth, has lots of "bling"....you can add your own to the list, but I think my point is made.    Whereas someone who is clean cut, standing tall, looks bathed, etc...etc...etc....  I am not going to fear that he is going to ask to borrow my phone and then run off with it....no matter WHAT COLOR he is. 

Everyone does this.    When I was a long haired pot smoker in a junker car, I was pulled over once a month....and you know what?  I usually had something they would get me on, even if it was a minor infraction.     Now?   I get pulled over about once every dozen YEARS...and I often don't get pulled over even if I am speeding.   And I personally think that a huge reason is that I'm now a clean cut middle aged man.   

I have a friend try to pull the "white privilege" card on my from time to time, and there might be something to that, but more often than not, I think it simply has to do with "culture".     And I think it's unfortunate that there is a section of society that glamorizes a culture of crime.   

There are black people who recognize that this is a particular problem in the black community.   Bill Cosby obviously...but Aaron McGruder (of Boondocks fame) practically makes a living off of criticizing what black culture has become.

I don't care about color.   But maybe I've changed topics...   :-\

I hope I'm not misunderstood here, I don't want to mis-speak. 
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Offline Chino

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 06:32:49 PM »
It's a problem that runs deep in all of society today, whether you want to admit it or not.

Please don't say it that way; that casts those that have some legitimate doubt - if not into the existence then at least to the extent - as some sort of delusional paranoids.  I am neither, and yet I do not believe it "runs deep in all of society today" and that's not a question of "admitting" anything.   It exists, it is something that has to be dealt with as long as the numbers are greater than zero, but that's a far cry from "running deep in all of society today". 

I actually live about 30 minutes from Waterbury (and grew up even closer) and your issue is one that is integral to my discussion about looking past the numbers.  Citywide, Waterbury is about 20% black (CT is about 10%), yet you talk of being in an area that is "80%+ black".   How is that information not relevant when looking at traffic stop data?   Isn't it important to know where the stops are taking place?   And what would be the breakdown of the population of the potential stops?   

More existentially, why are we reluctant to just let the data speak for itself?  Why are we not willing to dig deeper and get a truer picture?  It's not as if digging deeper is just going to mine the same gold; the deeper we dig, the LESS the data matches up with the knee-jerk conclusion.   Why wouldn't we want to be right on this?

Going back and reading that, it's clear I didn't complete the thought before I ended the sentence. I tend to write stuff quickly at work. My apologies. The thought I was trying to convey was "It's a problem that runs deep in all of society today, whether you want to admit it or not, everyone is guilty of profiling at some point throughout their day". It doesn't necessarily mean it has to be negative. You could see someone in shape and your profile of them may be 'I bet that person runs marathons and eats organic'.

As for the Waterbury thing, it's a very weird city to talk about in regards to demographics. Like you said, the city only has a 20% black population, but the city is very divided between a lot of it's culture. You have sections that are 80%+ Italian, 80%+ Portuguese, 90%+ Jewish, etc.. There are some sections at are damn near 100% black. Go hang out in the areas surrounding Bishop Street and take an informal survey of the demographic. I didn't say anything regarding traffic stop data, but it is entirely relevant when looking at those figures. I didn't mean to give of the notion that it's not relevant.


Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 07:01:49 PM »
I went somewhere between huge problem and big problem. Everybody profiles and anybody who denies that is lying both to themselves and others. Regardless if whether you profile based on gender, race, economics, nationality, religion, politics, or some other metric piece of data, you all profile. Now, I will agree that profiling in and of itself is not necessarily bad. I don't know if I would go so far as to call profiling, in and of itself, to be racist or classist or whatever, but profiling does have the tendency to separate us from our fellow men and women. When we start seeing people as a set of stereotypes or cliches instead of as other people, that's when I think it gets damaging to society.

Most people's ability to act on their own prejudices and preconceived notions is fairly limited, in the grand scheme of things, but you give a man or a woman power, whether it be financial or political, you greatly expand the amount of damage a person can do with their prejudices and preconceived notions. And yes, this includes police officers, the little power that they have they are often allowed to exercise however they see fit and without the scrutiny usually applied to more public figures. When you factor in the culture of the police department, the culture of our citizenry towards the police (which seems to be either meek deference or outright assholish belligerence with nothing in between), and the laughably small amount of oversight applied to the police, you find yourselves with a problem.

So yes, big problem. While the data may not conclusively point in big, glowy neon letters that police pull over more black people because they're black, I think there's enough data there to support that theorem and say 'Hey, we should look at this a little harder.' At least there's more convincing data for this theory than for other popular 'theories' out there, like 'trickle down economics works' or 'guns increase/reduce crime.'

But, hey, maybe I'm just profiling those theories based on their sources. :)

Addendum: I actually think that stopping profiling completely is pretty much impossible. I know nobody is saying that we can or should, but really the only way, IMO, to combat profiling and racism amongst the LEOs is to not even combat it directly. We just need to both take a good, hard look at how we view crime and overall reduce the power and freedom of the LEO's to act in any way they see fit. Take away some of their toys, make them more accountable for their actions, and make them less punishers of crime and more servants of law. Impossible? Maybe, but probably much more possible than outright removing profiling from the equation.

Offline AngelBack

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2014, 07:56:24 AM »
Here's the thing...  Personally, I judge by "culture" more than by "color"....

When I'm walking out to my car, it doesn't matter what color the guy is....he could be white, black, yellow, red...etc...etc...etc...   But if he's sporting "gangsta" style clothing, looks unbathed, is just 'hangin out' and not really going anywhere, is missing teeth, has lots of "bling"....you can add your own to the list, but I think my point is made.    Whereas someone who is clean cut, standing tall, looks bathed, etc...etc...etc....  I am not going to fear that he is going to ask to borrow my phone and then run off with it....no matter WHAT COLOR he is. 

Everyone does this.    When I was a long haired pot smoker in a junker car, I was pulled over once a month....and you know what?  I usually had something they would get me on, even if it was a minor infraction.     Now?   I get pulled over about once every dozen YEARS...and I often don't get pulled over even if I am speeding.   And I personally think that a huge reason is that I'm now a clean cut middle aged man.   

I have a friend try to pull the "white privilege" card on my from time to time, and there might be something to that, but more often than not, I think it simply has to do with "culture".     And I think it's unfortunate that there is a section of society that glamorizes a culture of crime.   

There are black people who recognize that this is a particular problem in the black community.   Bill Cosby obviously...but Aaron McGruder (of Boondocks fame) practically makes a living off of criticizing what black culture has become.

I don't care about color.   But maybe I've changed topics...   :-\

I hope I'm not misunderstood here, I don't want to mis-speak.


I agree with this statement and will take it a step further.  I live in an affluent city in a suburb north of Atlanta.  The demographics are 92% white, 4% Hispanic, 3% black, 1% other.  The only crime we have by local citizens is DUI, domestic violence and occasional drug charges.  Virtually all the small number of property or violent crimes are committed by "visitors" from the inner city.  So in my town if you have a car tag with a city of Atlanta (Fulton County) sticker on it and it is after 1000pm (and most likely non-white) you ARE going to be pulled over.  Is this a violation of that person's constitutional rights?  Of course.  Am I OK with it?  YOU BET.  We all trade personal freedoms for security in some ways.  I have 4 kids and pay a lot to live in this area and if it has to be a situation where some innocents pay an inconvenience because of the trend of crimes being committed by those from their part of town, well, too bad.  And I was a victim of this when I moved there.  My tag had not been changed and was pulled over the first week there under the pretense of "failure to maintain lane".  I chatted with the officers, gave them my new address and thanked them for being vigilant in keeping our town safe.  Like it or not this is the world we live in.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 09:04:08 AM »
Quote
When I'm walking out to my car, it doesn't matter what color the guy is....he could be white, black, yellow, red...etc...etc...etc...   But if he's sporting "gangsta" style clothing, looks unbathed, is just 'hangin out' and not really going anywhere, is missing teeth, has lots of "bling"....you can add your own to the list, but I think my point is made.    Whereas someone who is clean cut, standing tall, looks bathed, etc...etc...etc....  I am not going to fear that he is going to ask to borrow my phone and then run off with it....no matter WHAT COLOR he is. 

I don't really disagree with the spirit of your post, as I think visual cues - all of them - play an automatic role in how we relate to and interactive with pepole. But one thing I think is being lost, is the fact that what you percieve to be "proper" attire is determined by culture. So saying that someone wearing bling, a hoodie and pants below their ass are disreputable is viewing it from the persepctive that proper attire is nicely groomed hair, good clothing that is worn in a specific way.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 09:11:41 AM »
I don't think that is being lost at all.  I just think the fact that it is determined by culture is irrelevant to Jammin's point. 
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 12:58:19 PM »
There are some sections at are damn near 100% black. Go hang out in the areas surrounding Bishop Street and take an informal survey of the demographic. I didn't say anything regarding traffic stop data, but it is entirely relevant when looking at those figures. I didn't mean to give of the notion that it's not relevant.

But that is the very essence of my point:  it is VERY relevant, and yet there are some here that are dismissive of that and think it is "simple" and not up for debate.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2014, 01:08:53 PM »
So yes, big problem. While the data may not conclusively point in big, glowy neon letters that police pull over more black people because they're black, I think there's enough data there to support that theorem and say 'Hey, we should look at this a little harder.' At least there's more convincing data for this theory than for other popular 'theories' out there, like 'trickle down economics works' or 'guns increase/reduce crime.'

Which, believe it or not, is very close to my position.

Quote
Addendum: I actually think that stopping profiling completely is pretty much impossible. I know nobody is saying that we can or should, but really the only way, IMO, to combat profiling and racism amongst the LEOs is to not even combat it directly. We just need to both take a good, hard look at how we view crime and overall reduce the power and freedom of the LEO's to act in any way they see fit. Take away some of their toys, make them more accountable for their actions, and make them less punishers of crime and more servants of law. Impossible? Maybe, but probably much more possible than outright removing profiling from the equation.

I don't think we should stop profiling at all; I think we should actually ENCOURAGE it; but the key is to not make it based on one or two characteristics that aren't a contributor to cause and effect.  One of the greatest breakthroughs in combating crime that wasn't "fingerprint" or "DNA" was the notion of profiling serial killers.  "Race" was but one of about 75 different characteristics that went into determining who might be a likely candidate for being a serial killer (and I note that no one was screaming "SEXISM!!!!!!!" when something like 90% of them turned out to be male).

I find it interesting that it seems as if your response to crime is to essentially to target LEOs.   How do you see that positively impacting crime numbers?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2014, 01:15:39 PM »
Serial killer profiling is based on a specific set of crimes and evidence. The profile is therefore specific to one killer. What Johnny is up to would be generalized profiling, which if memory serves isn't particularly accurate.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2014, 01:48:19 PM »
If i drive past an elementary school in a dirty box van with a sign that says 'free candy', I'm going to be profiled.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2014, 02:44:01 PM »
And the bigger point to my last point is that if you voluntarily choose to identify yourself with a criminal nitche of society, you are GOING to be profiled as a criminal.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 03:20:56 PM »
Serial killer profiling is based on a specific set of crimes and evidence. The profile is therefore specific to one killer. What Johnny is up to would be generalized profiling, which if memory serves isn't particularly accurate.

No, not necessarily; there are patterns and predilections.    When you see a badly mutilated body but the body is posed or covered up, it generally suggests a smaller subset of potential killers (i.e. the killer knew the victim) but doesn't specifically indicate ONE particular killer.    The only real difference is with a serial killer you have a body, so you KNOW a crime has been committed, whereas here we are searching for evidence that a crime has or will be committed.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 03:39:14 PM »
Serial killer profiling is based on a specific set of crimes and evidence. The profile is therefore specific to one killer. What Johnny is up to would be generalized profiling, which if memory serves isn't particularly accurate.

No, not necessarily; there are patterns and predilections.    When you see a badly mutilated body but the body is posed or covered up, it generally suggests a smaller subset of potential killers (i.e. the killer knew the victim) but doesn't specifically indicate ONE particular killer.    The only real difference is with a serial killer you have a body, so you KNOW a crime has been committed, whereas here we are searching for evidence that a crime has or will be committed.
But that's a pretty big difference, isn't it? In once case you're looking for the person most likely to have committed a crime based on evidence you have. In the other you're fishing for somebody who might be committing a crime.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 03:59:04 PM »
If i drive past an elementary school in a dirty box van with a sign that says 'free candy', I'm going to be profiled.

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »
If i drive past an elementary school in a dirty box van with a sign that says 'free candy', I'm going to be profiled.

:heybaby:

 :lol
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 06:41:05 AM »
Serial killer profiling is based on a specific set of crimes and evidence. The profile is therefore specific to one killer. What Johnny is up to would be generalized profiling, which if memory serves isn't particularly accurate.

No, not necessarily; there are patterns and predilections.    When you see a badly mutilated body but the body is posed or covered up, it generally suggests a smaller subset of potential killers (i.e. the killer knew the victim) but doesn't specifically indicate ONE particular killer.    The only real difference is with a serial killer you have a body, so you KNOW a crime has been committed, whereas here we are searching for evidence that a crime has or will be committed.
But that's a pretty big difference, isn't it? In once case you're looking for the person most likely to have committed a crime based on evidence you have. In the other you're fishing for somebody who might be committing a crime.

Certainly when you say it that way, and I don't disagree with you in terms of highlighting that difference.  But I'm not thinking of this in terms of "cops" targeting "blacks" in the hopes of finding some "weed" to bust.  I'm thinking of this in terms of, say, El Al, which, despite being one of the most targeted airlines in the history of aviation has one of the best (if not the best) security records in aviation history.  They absolutely and without apology profile their passengers, and they do so in a transparent and objective way in order to preserve the safety of the overall enterprise.  Not something we don't do regularly (in a different context of course) here in the States.  We often infringe - slightly - on fundamental rights in order to preserve the greater integrity of that fundamental right (I'm thinking of time, place and manner restrictions on free speech, or licenses/background checks on the right to bear arms).    In my view, there is nothing wrong with pulling over a driver if they fit the 10 or 15 point profile and one of those points happens to be "skin color", when it is undeniable that skin color is a differentiator in many other, benign ways.   Interesting that we can emphasize and even segregate (in a way) by color (both black and white) in some instances, but not others.   I don't mean that to be critical, I just find it fascinating, and at some point, I'd like a seat on the committee that gets to decide when discrimination is okay and when it's not.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 06:59:44 AM »
In my view, there is nothing wrong with pulling over a driver if they fit the 10 or 15 point profile and one of those points happens to be "skin color", when it is undeniable that skin color is a differentiator in many other, benign ways.   
Would your view be the same if you were of the skin color that would result in such action?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 07:42:58 AM »
In my view, there is nothing wrong with pulling over a driver if they fit the 10 or 15 point profile and one of those points happens to be "skin color", when it is undeniable that skin color is a differentiator in many other, benign ways.   
Would your view be the same if you were of the skin color that would result in such action?

Why not?  I don't recall if I've ever been in that situation.  I was pulled over and questioned once in Father Panik Village, a housing development in Bridgeport that was probably 95% black and where the rich white kids from the neighboring town of Fairfield would go to get their weed and coke (I was driving my friend to look at a car to buy and neither of us realized where the address was).  I can't tell you if it was because I was "white" or not, but I know I didn't belong there.  But either way, my first reaction wasn't "you got pulled because you are WHITE."  And I'm sure el Barto would have issues with the circumstances of the stop; it was daylight, so it wasn't equipment.  I wasn't speeding (it would be almost impossible to speed there).  So in hindsight, I was likely profiled. 

I'm probably not the right person to ask that question.   It takes a lot to inspire outrage in me; I do not offend easily and I don't look to find ways in which I might be wronged.   I get pulled over, it is what it is.  And regardless, even if I was offended, why does that translate into actionable circumstances?   If I get pulled aside walking through my daughter's school by a teacher who doesn't know me, even though I did nothing wrong and have a right to be there, should I make a big stink about it?  Or chalk it up to the age-old trade off between individual rights and the collective good? 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 08:35:12 AM by Stadler »

Offline jammindude

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 07:49:26 AM »
On that note, when I used to have long hair and be a stoner teenager, I was minding my own business in a grocery store when an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for. I was more than happy to cooperate and the officer was really nice. This was an instance where I fit the profile of someone that they were looking for and I was more than happy to cooperate and I did not mind it a bit. I viewed it as my civil duty to cooperate.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 08:00:26 AM »
It takes a lot to butthurt me
I loathe that word.  It's an internet contrivance for unwarranted annoyance.  I think a more correct term for this occurrence would be "outrage". 

On that note, when I used to have long hair and be a stoner teenager, I was minding my own business in a grocery store when an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for. I was more than happy to cooperate and the officer was really nice. This was an instance where I fit the profile of someone that they were looking for and I was more than happy to cooperate and I did not mind it a bit. I viewed it as my civil duty to cooperate.
Yeah, this is completely different.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 08:03:02 AM »
On that note, when I used to have long hair and be a stoner teenager, I was minding my own business in a grocery store when an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for. I was more than happy to cooperate and the officer was really nice. This was an instance where I fit the profile of someone that they were looking for and I was more than happy to cooperate and I did not mind it a bit. I viewed it as my civil duty to cooperate.

I don't think that's the same though. If someone just robbed a bank, they are looking for a suspect whose description you just happen to match. That's different than randomly being stopped for being some cop's mental image of what a criminal looks like.

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 08:38:39 AM »
It takes a lot to butthurt me
I loathe that word.  It's an internet contrivance for unwarranted annoyance.  I think a more correct term for this occurrence would be "outrage". 

Changed with my apologies.  I actually don't like the word either; trying to be hip I guess.   

Quote
On that note, when I used to have long hair and be a stoner teenager, I was minding my own business in a grocery store when an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for. I was more than happy to cooperate and the officer was really nice. This was an instance where I fit the profile of someone that they were looking for and I was more than happy to cooperate and I did not mind it a bit. I viewed it as my civil duty to cooperate.
Yeah, this is completely different.

Why?  On the premise that we don't KNOW that people are pulled over for being black (which is different, and which would be bad) or that they fit a larger profile (which isn't exactly the same, for the reasons el Barto set out with my serial killer analogy, but which isn't bad) or that a specific target was in mind (which is the same) how can you tell?   I don't get anything from the data or the conversation here that seems willing to address race differently in these situations?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2014, 08:44:38 AM »
Serial killer profiling is based on a specific set of crimes and evidence. The profile is therefore specific to one killer. What Johnny is up to would be generalized profiling, which if memory serves isn't particularly accurate.

No, not necessarily; there are patterns and predilections.    When you see a badly mutilated body but the body is posed or covered up, it generally suggests a smaller subset of potential killers (i.e. the killer knew the victim) but doesn't specifically indicate ONE particular killer.    The only real difference is with a serial killer you have a body, so you KNOW a crime has been committed, whereas here we are searching for evidence that a crime has or will be committed.
But that's a pretty big difference, isn't it? In once case you're looking for the person most likely to have committed a crime based on evidence you have. In the other you're fishing for somebody who might be committing a crime.

Certainly when you say it that way, and I don't disagree with you in terms of highlighting that difference.  But I'm not thinking of this in terms of "cops" targeting "blacks" in the hopes of finding some "weed" to bust.  I'm thinking of this in terms of, say, El Al, which, despite being one of the most targeted airlines in the history of aviation has one of the best (if not the best) security records in aviation history.  They absolutely and without apology profile their passengers, and they do so in a transparent and objective way in order to preserve the safety of the overall enterprise.  Not something we don't do regularly (in a different context of course) here in the States.  We often infringe - slightly - on fundamental rights in order to preserve the greater integrity of that fundamental right (I'm thinking of time, place and manner restrictions on free speech, or licenses/background checks on the right to bear arms).    In my view, there is nothing wrong with pulling over a driver if they fit the 10 or 15 point profile and one of those points happens to be "skin color", when it is undeniable that skin color is a differentiator in many other, benign ways.   Interesting that we can emphasize and even segregate (in a way) by color (both black and white) in some instances, but not others.   I don't mean that to be critical, I just find it fascinating, and at some point, I'd like a seat on the committee that gets to decide when discrimination is okay and when it's not.
At this point I think it's likely that El Al is the least targeted airline on Earth, for the simple reason that people know they're voluntarily walking into a police state. The question then becomes whether or not you'd rather live in a world where no crime is committed because you know without a fact that The Man is keeping tabs on your every move at all times. I'm not one of those "I have nothing to hide" types, even if I don't. The other thing is that El Al is a unique situation. Again, they're looking for one specific criminal, and they're doing it in one clearly defined location. If the IDF started roaming the streets interviewing every person to find out which ones might be planning to blow up Sbarro, then people might feel differently about it.

In my view, there is nothing wrong with pulling over a driver if they fit the 10 or 15 point profile and one of those points happens to be "skin color", when it is undeniable that skin color is a differentiator in many other, benign ways.   
Would your view be the same if you were of the skin color that would result in such action?

Why not?  I don't recall if I've ever been in that situation.  I was pulled over and questioned once in Father Panik Village, a housing development in Bridgeport that was probably 95% black and where the rich white kids from the neighboring town of Fairfield would go to get their weed and coke (I was driving my friend to look at a car to buy and neither of us realized where the address was).  I can't tell you if it was because I was "white" or not, but I know I didn't belong there.  But either way, my first reaction wasn't "you got pulled because you are WHITE."  And I'm sure el Barto would have issues with the circumstances of the stop; it was daylight, so it wasn't equipment.  I wasn't speeding (it would be almost impossible to speed there).  So in hindsight, I was likely profiled. 

I'm probably not the right person to ask that question.   It takes a lot to inspire outrage in me; I do not offend easily and I don't look to find ways in which I might be wronged.   I get pulled over, it is what it is.  And regardless, even if I was offended, why does that translate into actionable circumstances?   If I get pulled aside walking through my daughter's school by a teacher who doesn't know me, even though I did nothing wrong and have a right to be there, should I make a big stink about it?  Or chalk it up to the age-old trade off between individual rights and the collective good? 
And this is where we run into the personal POV thing. You don't have any reason to fear the police. Black people have legitimate concerns. I'm actually in your camp on that one (situationally) as with one exception I've never felt like I might get shot or beaten by thug cops. If you and everybody you knew had bad experiences with cops then you'd almost certainly feel differently.

Lastly, butthurt is a great word.



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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2014, 08:59:23 AM »
On that note, when I used to have long hair and be a stoner teenager, I was minding my own business in a grocery store when an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for. I was more than happy to cooperate and the officer was really nice. This was an instance where I fit the profile of someone that they were looking for and I was more than happy to cooperate and I did not mind it a bit. I viewed it as my civil duty to cooperate.
Yeah, this is completely different.

Why?  On the premise that we don't KNOW that people are pulled over for being black (which is different, and which would be bad) or that they fit a larger profile (which isn't exactly the same, for the reasons el Barto set out with my serial killer analogy, but which isn't bad) or that a specific target was in mind (which is the same) how can you tell?   I don't get anything from the data or the conversation here that seems willing to address race differently in these situations?
You don't see a difference between someone being detained for questioning who fit a known physical profile for a specific suspect of a specific crime and someone being detained "just because they look suspicious" and not for any specific incident?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 09:41:59 AM by hefdaddy42 »
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Offline Chino

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2014, 09:08:30 AM »


Quote
On that note, when I used to have long hair and be a stoner teenager, I was minding my own business in a grocery store when an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for. I was more than happy to cooperate and the officer was really nice. This was an instance where I fit the profile of someone that they were looking for and I was more than happy to cooperate and I did not mind it a bit. I viewed it as my civil duty to cooperate.
Yeah, this is completely different.

Why?  On the premise that we don't KNOW that people are pulled over for being black (which is different, and which would be bad) or that they fit a larger profile (which isn't exactly the same, for the reasons el Barto set out with my serial killer analogy, but which isn't bad) or that a specific target was in mind (which is the same) how can you tell?   I don't get anything from the data or the conversation here that seems willing to address race differently in these situations?

You're 100% missing his point.

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2014, 10:10:33 AM »
How do i know the cop just didnt like 'long haired hippie teenagers"? I never saw or asked for the APB. For all i know, it was no different.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Racial Profiling?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2014, 10:47:49 AM »
How do i know the cop just didnt like 'long haired hippie teenagers"? I never saw or asked for the APB. For all i know, it was no different.

Because you said "an officer approached me and asked for my ID because I supposedly matched the description of someone they were looking for.". Even if that was a lie, it's still different then just stopping you and saying "Can I see some ID?".