Author Topic: Why the need for prerecorded vocs and perfect replication of the studio versions?  (Read 3902 times)

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Offline Sad Wings

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A while back I read a post by music industry blogger Bob Lefsetz lamenting the fact that even though Milli Vanilli were banished, it's become acceptable to use hard drives, tapes, and all manner of other methods of pre-recorded instrumentation at concerts in the last twenty years.  I was reminded of the discussion of the click track on here back in March and remember reading that the backing vocals at DT's shows are now triggered.  For a band with a reputation as musicians' musicians, it's definitely disappointing.  Even if there were no vocals in those spots at the show it would seem more authentic and wouldn't really detract since sound quality isn't great at shows.  Furthermore, I once read that DT are happy to now be able to replicate the studio version note for note.  Why would they want to do this?  Isn't spontaneity and improv part of the charm of a live show?  I loved the ending to Space-Dye Vest back in March and would like to see more moments like that one.

Offline Xenon

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A while back I read a post by music industry blogger Bob Lefsetz lamenting the fact that even though Milli Vanilli were banished, it's become acceptable to use hard drives, tapes, and all manner of other methods of pre-recorded instrumentation at concerts in the last twenty years.  I was reminded of the discussion of the click track on here back in March and remember reading that the backing vocals at DT's shows are now triggered.  For a band with a reputation as musicians' musicians, it's definitely disappointing.  Even if there were no vocals in those spots at the show it would seem more authentic and wouldn't really detract since sound quality isn't great at shows.  Furthermore, I once read that DT are happy to now be able to replicate the studio version note for note.  Why would they want to do this?  Isn't spontaneity and improv part of the charm of a live show?  I loved the ending to Space-Dye Vest back in March and would like to see more moments like that one.
For me, in some bands, pre recorded vocals are a must. Take for example Tesseract's Altered State. Any song of that album without pre recorded vocals would lose so much life and colour.

Offline PowerSlave

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I think that there's a "fine line" that makes it acceptable or not. If the recorded tracks are there to only enhance a live performance, then I think that they are fine. Milli Vanilli were presenting the recorded tracks as the entire performance ect. ect...
All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again

Offline Zyzzyva17

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I think the guys at DT have the mentality that their songs are a finished product, and that the studio version represents the songs as they want them to sound. So they don't see a need to "change things up" when performing live. Space Dye Vest is an exception that proves the rule, because the studio version wasn't the product of the band as a whole. The members of DT are more concerned with how the songs are presented live, which translates mainly to the technical aspects such as lighting and video. They craft the concert experience to fit the songs, rather than re-crafting the songs to fit the concert setting.
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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I think that there's a "fine line" that makes it acceptable or not. If the recorded tracks are there to only enhance a live performance, then I think that they are fine. Milli Vanilli were presenting the recorded tracks as the entire performance ect. ect...

Exactly.  Fans coming to shows generally expect to hear what they hear on the record in a live setting.  Of course, some artists rely more heavily on backing tracks - DT, I don't think NEED the tracks, but its their prerogative; they want to fill out the sounds and translate the cool shit they spent time on in the studio to the stage. 

Offline Zook

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There's a difference between piped in vocals for effect and backing vocals, and lip syncing.

Offline TheAtliator

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They've got 3 great singers plus a music professor up on stage. There is no reason for backing vocal tracks. How come the guys that can do this *insert video of the ITNOG or Outcry crazy section* can't sing 3 or 4 notes in a few songs to fulfill the one and only thing now missing from this massive concert.

That's like building the greatest skyscraper in the world with the utmost precision and perfection down to every nail, and then getting the crappy air conditioning vents because they were $10 cheeper.

Offline Rodni Demental

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I get where you're coming from TC, I think. When a band has a reputation for being musicians' musicians as you put it, you expect it to be "authentic". But personally I think a few triggered samples to a click are not inclusive with; nor imply a less authentic performance. I believe it's harder to play to clicks and keep the band so tightly locked into those tempos, it actually takes more skill (imo) for all the band members to systematically sync up as a unit, than to just sync up with each other. Also, we like to impose our own preconceptions about the details of what makes it less authentic, which we somehow let effect our perception of the performance when you could argue either way; eg. it could be considered more skillful as musicians and more authentic to be able to replicate the studio versions.

It's tricky, because the main issue (as I see it for most of us) is the lack of spontaneity which they might not be able to do as often unless it's deliberately worked into the song. And then it's probably some kind of orchestrated spontaneity that is only spontaneous to the listener and not the player. Although as players, keep in mind that some of these spontaneous moments that we love to see, can be the same as the band's worst nightmare because sometimes those moments happen when something else isn't going right and I'm sure they prefer to have things in check and prefer to know where they're going and what they're doing up there.

But I don't think an unpredictable performance, and click tracks have to be exclusive.

Offline Zook

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Maybe when Mangini feels he's comfortable enough to lose the click, they will. I don't know about the backing track though. I suppose you need a click for that anyway, but the other guys at least know where they are as far as singing goes. Portnoy, didn't care either way.

Offline Sad Wings

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Space Dye Vest is an exception that proves the rule, because the studio version wasn't the product of the band as a whole.
They all played on the outro, so it's no less a DT song than, say, "The Silent Man" or "Far From Heaven".

When I saw the Awake set back in March, I couldn't help but think of the guitar solo that Petrucci did leading into Scarred with the floyd-ish keyboard backdrop on the 6DOIT tour.  Parts of that were gorgeous and it would have been nice to see something like that on this tour.

Offline Skeever

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They've got 3 great singers plus a music professor up on stage. There is no reason for backing vocal tracks. How come the guys that can do this *insert video of the ITNOG or Outcry crazy section* can't sing 3 or 4 notes in a few songs to fulfill the one and only thing now missing from this massive concert.
I can't agree with this.

James is pretty awesome when he's on, but he's too inconsistent for me to consider him "great" - but I would say he is pretty decent. And who are the other two great singers? JP is a serviceable backup vocalist, but he seems to have no interest in singing and can't really play his parts while singing anyway. And who's the mystery man No. 3 "great" vocalist? Rudess or Myung? Neither have ever sung in any capacity with the band, so I think you have your answer right there. They need backing tracks because they don't have enough singers in the band, and because while James hits the notes more often than not, his often does so with a very "thin" sound to his voice that could use a few backing tracks to fill out.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Space Dye Vest is an exception that proves the rule, because the studio version wasn't the product of the band as a whole.
They all played on the outro, so it's no less a DT song than, say, "The Silent Man" or "Far From Heaven".

Kinda, except Space Dye Vest has had deliberate exclusion in the bands live history, for the reason being that it's a Keven Moore song. It's been stated that he wrote the whole thing so even the outro where the band comes in on the album, is just to build on the atmosphere. They didn't exactly add anything new to the song melodically or structurally.

I don't know if JP had input on Far From Heaven, but JLB wrote lyrics so it's still a collaboration. The Silent Man could arguably be a JP song but ever since it's release, it's never had that distinction during the entire time the band has been playing it. So I do think Space Dye Vest is an exception and can be considered "less of a DT song". Still totally a DT song though.  :lol
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:04:04 AM by Rodni Demental »

Offline 425

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They've got 3 great singers plus a music professor up on stage. There is no reason for backing vocal tracks. How come the guys that can do this *insert video of the ITNOG or Outcry crazy section* can't sing 3 or 4 notes in a few songs to fulfill the one and only thing now missing from this massive concert.

That's like building the greatest skyscraper in the world with the utmost precision and perfection down to every nail, and then getting the crappy air conditioning vents because they were $10 cheeper.

I mostly agree (who is the third great singer?).

Most of the necessary backing vocals are well within John's range. You can't tell me that a backing track was really needed on Fatal Tragedy ("There can be no turning back" and "There can be no peace of mind")—John has been doing that part with Mike Portnoy from the beginning, and I can't really see why he couldn't do it alone. Besides that, a lot of these aren't even really difficult melodies. I have to imagine that of the other three guys in the band (I hear Jordan can sing?) they could find someone who can sing "there can be no peace of mind" along with John if he doesn't feel comfortable doing it alone—heck, I could probably do it, and I am not anything more than an okay singer by any means.

There are a few tough spots that I can understand why they'd use a backing track—Build Me Up, Break Me Down, for instance. But I would wager that 90% of the necessary backing vocal spots could be easily handled by John Petrucci.
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Offline DarkLord_Lalinc

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I don't have issues with backing tracks. They add nice ambience to the live setting. I know they play/sing their asses of, so it's not a way of "covering" things up.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Maybe when Mangini feels he's comfortable enough to lose the click, they will. I don't know about the backing track though. I suppose you need a click for that anyway, but the other guys at least know where they are as far as singing goes. Portnoy, didn't care either way.

so it's Mangini's decision to have a click track? I believe that it is more reasonable to believe that it is a band decision to play to a click track given that they have decided to sync their playing to backing tracks, piped in vocal effects (like the case of The Mirror and Space Dye Vest), sound effects, video presentations, and lights.


Offline Xenon

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The click track it's not a Mangini thing.
It's just the way they orchestrate the whole show to sync with the lights, Backing tracks,  video screens and al that shit.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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I still can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would have a major problem with a prerecorded backing track for a line here or there encompassing less than 20 seconds of an 8 minute song. 

Everybody knows that they are doing it just to fill out certain sections a little more and the backing tracks are played at a fraction of the volume of the vocals so there is no effort to cover up anything. 

Offline erwinrafael

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I still can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would have a major problem with a prerecorded backing track for a line here or there encompassing less than 20 seconds of an 8 minute song. 

Everybody knows that they are doing it just to fill out certain sections a little more and the backing tracks are played at a fraction of the volume of the vocals so there is no effort to cover up anything.

I can not imagine how they could play Space Dye Vest or even The Shattered Fortress without backing tracks.

Offline Nofire

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I'd love to see them do TGD without backing tracks. That would be exciting!
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Offline rumborak

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I still can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would have a major problem with a prerecorded backing track for a line here or there encompassing less than 20 seconds of an 8 minute song. 

Because a) there's quite a few here who "grew up" watching DT being completely fine without backing tracks and b) as somebody said, they have a slew of capable musicians who could sing it.

It's also not just vocals. JP also uses backing tracks to double some of his guitar lines.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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^^^ In fairness, any of the times where he doubles the guitar is either; harmony enhancement where he's essentially playing a similar thing on a different interval (same purpose as the vocal harmonies really, and he might even be triggering a harmonizer effect rather than a sample for all I know). And the other times are for rhythm tracks while he takes lead, because you know, the band only has one guitarist. Besides, it's not like he uses them as a crutch like he's cheating at his own playing, because he still plays all the fancy stuff. I just say this because a lot of you guys that don't like the backing tracks, not always, but generally give the impression that you're extremely disappointed and you expect better from these guys or something to that effect, pretty much like it's a cheat, or a player bending the rules in a sports game. It's a perfectly valid and honest opinion to have, but I just think if the players want to use backing tracks to enhance the experience of their performance, then more power to them. After so many years of doing it 'old school', I think the guys made a deliberate and conscious choice to do it this way and it really is for the benefit of the fans.

Offline erwinrafael

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maybe DT really just wants their songs to be heard based on what they envisioned the song to sound like. I'd prefer they trigger these backing tracks than have a hidden 6th DT member playing rhythm guitar and keyboards in the background, like what Spike Edney used to do for Queen.

Offline rumborak

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 04:11:41 AM by rumborak »
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Offline erwinrafael

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.

Offline BlobVanDam

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.

It has nothing to do with nostalgia. Even in the post you quoted, rumby mentioned there were downsides to how it used to be. He's just comparing one aspect of how DT used to do things with how they do it now, and how it affects the show for him.

I hate to say it, but one setlist played exactly the same for the entire tour is as close to sterile a tour as they've done. Which is no problem at all if you like that one setlist, and only watch that one show (personally this is my least favourite Evening With setlist they've done), but it isn't very interesting or rewarding to keep up with what's happening, like when there was always the possibility of getting something unexpected.

It's not nostalgia, it's just a different opinion and preference to yours.
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Offline Skeever

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.

Haha, dude, what the heck?

>someone posts "why do they need backing tracks"
>people who prefer the band before they used backing tracks should just watch the old DVDs and shut up

lol

Offline mikeyd23

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It's also not just vocals. JP also uses backing tracks to double some of his guitar lines.

I think we've gone over this before, but I still would like to know when guitar backing tracks are used at DT shows. Besides the obvious intro of TCoT I don't recall ever seeing JP use guitar backing tracks in a song.

Offline Plasmastrike

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Which guitar lines is he doubling via a track? Often he'll use a harmonizer when doing certain parts of a solo to give it that two guitar sound, but it's not a track.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 10:01:42 AM by Plasmastrike »

Offline Sad Wings

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.
I agree about the set list. It's easily my favorite set list from them but it would still be nice to get an extended guitar solo or improv jam at the beginning of Scarred as was the case in 2002 and 2007.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.

This post for the win. 

Offline rumborak

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Which guitar lines is he doubling via a track? Often he'll use a harmonizer when doing certain parts of a solo to give it that two guitar sound, but it's not a track.

Sounds maybe like a lame excuse, but he uses it sparingly enough that it would be a major undertaking for me now to try to find it, so I will refrain from doing so.
But, as a guitarist I can tell you, those instances weren't a harmonizer. Harmonizers have a somewhat limited capability in that they will put a fixed interval on top of your guitar line, according to the key that you programmed it for. It can't do crossing guitar lines etc.
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Offline Another_Won

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.

This post for the win.

I thought so too.  After all the rotating set lists, medleys and improve they wanted to do a well rehearsed professionally done show that everyone can enjoy.   I saw it, it was awesome.  Now, having said that, they probably shouldn't do the exact same thing with the next tour. :biggrin:

Offline Rodni Demental

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Which guitar lines is he doubling via a track? Often he'll use a harmonizer when doing certain parts of a solo to give it that two guitar sound, but it's not a track.
Harmonizers have a somewhat limited capability in that they will put a fixed interval on top of your guitar line, according to the key that you programmed it for. It can't do crossing guitar lines etc.

Well, typically no, but depending on the equipment and software you're using, if you program it to correlate the harmonies with specific notes in the scale you're playing. I'll admit I honestly don't know what JP is doing, whether it's a harmonizer or a backing track but it is indeed possible to harmonize more irregular patterns. Also, I'd say that even if it was a backing track, he's pretty tight at staying in sync with it to the point where we can't even tell the difference.  :xbones

Offline Madman Shepherd

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I've always been fine with Rush using triggered samples. It's 3 guys who got their hands full, and if they want a big sound it's the only way for them to do so. And even then, as I understand it Neil Peart triggers the samples himself.
And DT has 5 guys on stage. And they totally lost their spontaneity because their backing tracks (and videos) require playing to click. Somebody in the DVD thread said "oh, I love how JP played that one small line that doesn't appear on the record". MP had quite a few downsides, but he apparently was integral at keeping sterility out of DT by refusing to play to click and forcing the band to rotate around songs for each show.

I would not put sterile and DT in the same sentence after they just had one of the best setlists in a tour for quite some time. I am really tired of all these nostalgia posts where everything is made to appear better in the good old days. if you don't want how they play nowadays, just watch the old DVDs.

This post for the win.

I thought so too.  After all the rotating set lists, medleys and improve they wanted to do a well rehearsed professionally done show that everyone can enjoy.   I saw it, it was awesome.  Now, having said that, they probably shouldn't do the exact same thing with the next tour. :biggrin:

haha, this post for the win, also.