ADTOE vs DT12

[Zook]

I hate you all.

[Rodni Demental]

I don't have a problem with a basic verse chorus verse bridge verse/chorus, but Lost Not Forgetten borrows similar riffs and the exact structure of UAGM down to a T. It might be 3 minutes longer, but it's still the same damn song.

And even though songs like Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons and TMOLS have the same structure, they aren't the same song. Lost Not Forgotten IS Under a Glass Moon.

Except that it's not. 

I know they originated from a similar place, and I concede those similarities, but the end result, effect, meaning and mood of the song is entirely different. The riffs take inspiration from the older songs no more or less than the examples of similarities found in the likes of OTBOA/BAI. If you have a problem with this song, I'm surprised you don't have a problem with the entire album because the other more subtle song comparisons that haven't been mentioned still wouldn't exist the way they do without evolving (or 'borrowing' if you prefer) their ideas to become what they are now.

As nice as the Easter egg is, just like Eve, it's overrated as fuck.

Fair enough, I get people can think it's overrated. What I don't get is why people are comparing it to Eve like it's also a full cohesive song? Sure, they put off the same vibe and probably written to serve a similar purpose, but to me the 'Easter Egg' is just a bit of a much bigger piece. Everyone seems to forget that it's part of Illumination Theory, a piece of a greater whole. I don't expect it to be an amazing standalone piece, but for what it is, a subtle closer to the song (and album), works perfectly for what it was intended.

As others have pointed out, structural similarities are much different than musical copies.  Writing something fresh with a similar structure is not ripping yourself off.  I hear all kinds of self rip offs in DT12.  The worst part is, the first rip off I hear in the album opener (FAS) isn't even their own.  It sounds exactly like Symphony X.  I thought I was listening to Iconoclast.  Really?  You're starting out a new self titled album and it sounds like the beginning of another band's album?  Okie dokie.

Also, just because people have reasons for liking DT12 doesn't make it musically better than what they've done in the past.  I don't think it's musically better at all.  It has a few moments but I'll never like it in its entirety and if people disagree, fine.  I won't tell them they need to pay more attention.  Has nothing to do with that.

Inspiration for FAS was taken from DT interpreting what they'd want in an epic show intro, similar to the film pieces they've been using as intros for decades. Just because it's a very symphonic metal style piece, doesn't make it a rip off off Symphony X, and just because it reminded you of SX doesn't mean DT ripped it off...   

Also, if people have reasons for liking DT12, then it can be described as 'musically better' by that person if they want. Obviously you won't make that statement because you think they're ripping themselves off somehow. But you can't objectively say whether it's better or worse unless you can give examples of why or how the music is significantly lacking in something that should be relevant to DT's sound. And I don't think that's possible to define because it'll just become subjective again. Either way, it seems like DT can't catch a break, either they're ripping off another band if they emulate a certain sound, or they're ripping off themselves because it sounds like something they'd do... 

Whaah? 

[Mosh]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS. If even subconsciously. It has a very similar mood to Oculus from Paradise Lost, and they definitely know what it sounds like cause it was used as the intro tape for SX shows on progressive nation. 

FAS really destroys Oculus though. And that's saying a lot, cause Oculus is stellar too.

[Rodni Demental]

You know, you could be completely right. But I guess that's the difference in perspective, no one takes any issue with getting 'inspiration' from somewhere, but often someone will hear the connections and designate a song a 'rip-off' (which is quite a loaded assessment to make of anything, normally including loads of pre-conceptions) before trying to understand where the composer was and why they tried to to make something sound the way they did.

Besides, FAS might sound like many things. But it's a fairly unpredictable piece that never stays the same for more than a few seconds, I'd struggle to even find the comparisons which might prove it's similar to Oculus. It's more just a similar general mood/feel thing.

[hefdaddy42]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

[Zook]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

[The Letter M]

As nice as the Easter egg is, just like Eve, it's overrated as fuck.

Fair enough, I get people can think it's overrated. What I don't get is why people are comparing it to Eve like it's also a full cohesive song? Sure, they put off the same vibe and probably written to serve a similar purpose, but to me the 'Easter Egg' is just a bit of a much bigger piece. Everyone seems to forget that it's part of Illumination Theory, a piece of a greater whole. I don't expect it to be an amazing standalone piece, but for what it is, a subtle closer to the song (and album), works perfectly for what it was intended.

Everyone seems to forget that the "Easter Egg" was written separately from "Illumination Theory", and thus, it was not intended as a part of the epic song. The only reason it was tacked on to the end of "Illumination Theory" is because they wanted it at the end of the album and probably didn't want to put it on as a separate track, making it a hidden track (thus being called an "Easter Egg") and also extended the track length of "Illumination Theory".

How disappointed were we when we listened to the closing epic the first time and realized it ended at 19:12 instead of 22:17? The distinct time of silence between the end of IT and the fade-in of the "Easter Egg" denotes that it is indeed a separate track. Plenty of bands have done this in the past, placing a hidden track at the end of the album/last track, on the same track, after a set time of silence.

If we hadn't seen the DT12 Progress Chart from the writing/recording sessions for the album, I'm sure the idea that the "Easter Egg" at the end of the album was actually meant to be a part of "Illumination Theory" might hold some water, but because we know that JP and JR put the piece together after IT (according to the chart, IT was song 7, while the "Easter Egg" was song 10), it is safe to say it is not meant to be a part of the song. They have also not played it live after IT, and DT have never been known to cut out a part of any of their epics when they first play them live (as ar as I know, at least in recent years; all their album epics have been played whole including ITNOG, 8VM, ITPOE, ANTR, and TCOT).

Here's the chart, for reference:


-Marc.

[hefdaddy42]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

What?  You think the guys in DT are big SX fans?

[Zook]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

What?  You think the guys in DT are big SX fans?

Is it so hard to believe? Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean DT doesn't. LaBrie likes Circus Maximus. Does it hurt? DOES IT?!

[Nekov]

DT12 by a long long margin.

This. I love DT12 while ADTOE falls very short for me.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

ADTOE is a good album but to me it's not getting better with age whereas DT12 is. The short songs on DT12 are just so easy to listen to. When I feel like listening to DT, it's my go-to album because it's not an 80 minute marathon. Maybe my attention span just sucks but I love the more concise format.

[hefdaddy42]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

What?  You think the guys in DT are big SX fans?

Is it so hard to believe?

Yes.  And me liking them or not liking them has nothing to do with it.

[Zook]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

What?  You think the guys in DT are big SX fans?

Is it so hard to believe?

Yes.  And me liking them or not liking them has nothing to do with it.

OK, that explains everything...

[OsMosis2259]

ADTOE

[hefdaddy42]

OK, that explains everything...

What are you on about?

[rumborak]

I'm with Hef. I find it doubtful DT has any significant SymX influence.

[Riitasointi]

Me too. Somehow it's really hard to imagine DT drawing influence from SX. I doubt they even know the band at all haha.

[Zook]

OK, that explains everything...

What are you on about?

You wont actually explain why you don't think Symphony X has influence. It just comes across like SX is KrotchRaut and it's absurd that DT even knows they exist.

[Implode]

Something else I noticed: ADTOE has some of the better ballads they've released in a long time. I'm usually not huge fan of DT's ballads, but they really make the album for me. Beneath the Surface is top 15 material for me at least, and This Is the Life has some of the best sounding JLB in it (even though it's not quite top tier). Far from Heaven is just amazing.

[Mosh]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

Why? What's so crazy about them listening to SX?

Also, you conveniently ignored the part of my post where I mentioned Oculus being used on the intro tape when they opened for DT. You can even hear it in the CiM DVD playing in the background during doc parts. They probably heard it a lot. Like I said, could've just been a subconscious influence, that stuff happens.

[Zook]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

Why? What's so crazy about them listening to SX?

Also, you conveniently ignored the part of my post where I mentioned Oculus being used on the intro tape when they opened for DT. You can even hear it in the CiM DVD playing in the background during doc parts. They probably heard it a lot. Like I said, could've just been a subconscious influence, that stuff happens.

Because Symphony X is the worst thing to happen to music apparently, and Sophisticated fellows such as Dream Theater are too good for such dreck.

[Mosh]

Man silly me for suggesting that a progressive metal band might listen to another progressive metal band. That's insane.

[Zook]

Silly goose.

[hefdaddy42]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

Why? What's so crazy about them listening to SX?

Also, you conveniently ignored the part of my post where I mentioned Oculus being used on the intro tape when they opened for DT. You can even hear it in the CiM DVD playing in the background during doc parts. They probably heard it a lot. Like I said, could've just been a subconscious influence, that stuff happens.

Because Symphony X is the worst thing to happen to music apparently, and Sophisticated fellows such as Dream Theater are too good for such dreck.

Right, because that's exactly what I said.

[Zook]

I wouldn't be surprised if SX was a huge inspiration for FAS.

I would, because I would be pretty surprised if anyone in DT listened to SX on a regular enough basis to be familiar with them to the point of anything from them being an inspiration.

Why? What's so crazy about them listening to SX?

Also, you conveniently ignored the part of my post where I mentioned Oculus being used on the intro tape when they opened for DT. You can even hear it in the CiM DVD playing in the background during doc parts. They probably heard it a lot. Like I said, could've just been a subconscious influence, that stuff happens.

Because Symphony X is the worst thing to happen to music apparently, and Sophisticated fellows such as Dream Theater are too good for such dreck.

Right, because that's exactly what I said.

You haven't said anything!

[hefdaddy42]

I said everything that I meant to say.  What the fuck do you want?

[Zook]

I'd like to know why you feel DT don't listen to Symphony X on a regular basis. What makes you feel that way? You're ignoring both me and Mosh and avoiding this question.

[jjrock88]

DT12 but as a duo I rate them their best albums in some time.

[hefdaddy42]

I'd like to know why you feel DT don't listen to Symphony X on a regular basis. What makes you feel that way? You're ignoring both me and Mosh and avoiding this question.

Why do you care?  WTF

I am just saying that based on what I have read about their listening habits, and Symphony X 's relative popularity.

Now stop acting like I have personally insulted you.

[Zook]

I care because Symphony X is one of my favorite bands, and I know what your opinion of Power Metal is, so your comment came across to me as bashing them.

Besides, they've toured with DT on Gigantour and in Europe in 2007.

[Implode]

So what? Even if he did outright say, "SX sucks balls. DT are miles above their level," it's just an opinion on the internet. Walk away from the computer a bit. Life will go on.

[Zook]

Switch that around and someone gets warned or banned.

And it's moreso that it appeared to be bashing without merit. He can say SX sucks balls, but I'd at least like a reason for his opinion.

[Implode]

I'm not defending Hef here, I'm merely saying that it's usually better to just ignore/walk away from these situations.

[hefdaddy42]

I care because Symphony X is one of my favorite bands, and I know what your opinion of Power Metal is, so your comment came across to me as bashing them.

I did not one time bash them.  Insecure much?

Besides, my opinion of Power Metal is that it doesn't do anything for me, so I don't listen to it.  Not that it's awful.  Not that it sucks.  Not that they are terrible musicians making terrible music.  It just doesn't do anything for me.  If you like it, then fine.  I couldn't care less, and I certainly don't care enough about it to spend this much time discussing something that is really irrelevant to me.  Please continue your Symphony X/Power Metal crusade elsewhere, it is not necessary here.

Besides, they've toured with DT on Gigantour and in Europe in 2007.

And that means that MP really liked them.  Which I already knew.  But (in case you hadn't heard), he is no longer in DT.

I would be surprised to learn that JR or JM (in particular) listened to them on any regular basis.  I wouldn't be shocked to learn that MM had never heard of them.  Of the 5 of them, I would say the strongest possibility lies with JLB and JP, but I would still be a little surprised.  MP was the member that listened to other "current" similar bands.

Does that mean that they definitely don't listen to SX?  Of course not.  I could be wrong.  And you know what the implications of that would be?  That I was wrong.  I can live with that.  Life will go on.  Who cares?

But that has nothing to do with how good of a band they are, and I never fucking said anything about how good of a band they are.  Like what you want, and leave me out of it.

FFS

[rumborak]

Where's the pic of VG burning his "Divine Wings and Shit" CD when you need it