New DT album 2015?

[Mosh]

My theory is that MM thinks that since he's in a technical band like DT, he has to go overboard on the technical stuff to prove his worth. The guy can play with lots of feel, as proven outside of DT. I can't think of any other reason why he hardly brings that side of him to the band.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

What bothers me about MM is that if you listen to his performances outside DT he is fantastic, and much more fun to listen.
Maybe he run out of ideas, or maybe DT guys tell him what they wanted and he did it very well.

Don'tcha think it's still a little too early to really make that judgement? He's practically still "the new guy" and while DT12 was supposed to be him "unleashed", I'd still rather wait a couple more before really making any solid assessment like that. I can judge his performance on DT12, but not his performance as a DT member -- not yet at least.

[Mosh]

Every other DT member could be judged on his first or second album with the band in terms of what they're capable of bringing to the band. And it doesn't really change much after that. What gives MM the exception? I think it's perfectly fair to judge his performance as a DT member by now. Plus we have a pretty good amount of live performances to look at too.

[Kotowboy]

In any case MM is way more restrained than MP when it comes to what he plays on record and live outside of his solos.  Obviously MM cares far more about making sure he complements the band's overall sound than taking center stage, which is something I can't say about MP.

That is what I like about him though... he is entertaining to watch and doesn't steal the spotlight.

Plus he's a very down to earth guy and is genuinely grateful for being in the band.

[Jamesman42]

You know that little part at the end of Illumination Theory? The easter egg?

They should write music like that. It would be a huge change in direction (at least for an album) and I think they could pull off some beautiful songs. Abandon the prog metal label for a time, just create something more subtle and restrained. Too bad they won't do it.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Every other DT member could be judged on his first or second album with the band in terms of what they're capable of bringing to the band. And it doesn't really change much after that. What gives MM the exception? I think it's perfectly fair to judge his performance as a DT member by now. Plus we have a pretty good amount of live performances to look at too.

When the band first formed, they had years and years together already, before the debut even.

Aside from that, good point. I don't want to count ADTOE as MM being fully integrated in the band seeing as how JP programmed his drum parts, something the band themselves have reiterated too many times at this point, so I really only have DT12 to look at.

You get a pretty decent gauge on what he can do and how he's working with the band at this point in time. I think he filled MP's role excellently. Does that mean I like him better or that I think he has MP's tact? Not necessarily. There's definitely some moments where I think he's being too technical and flashy, but being associated with a name like Dream Theater, it kinda feels like he's the new intern -- a little stiff and at times unsure, so maybe his technicality is him trying to fill those shoes. Doesn't mean he's not having a great time, but I say given another album and it'd be better to really discern his place in the band. It's more accurate to gauge how he changes between albums than on the first (real) go.

[erwinrafael]

I feel like MM does way more doubling of guitar and bass patterns in his drum patterns, whereas MP's drumming seemed more to me like it added a new rhythmic texture into the sound and didn't just echo what everyone else was doing.

It's because MM's approach to drumming in a band is like playing bass guitar. MP plays more like he's a lead guitar type of guy. Even in his crazy Egg Zooming piece with Mike Keneally, he's doing polyrhythms but those are complementing the other instruments. If you search videos of him playing with Vai and Nuno, that's really the approach he takes. Personally, I prefer much much more MM's style, but I can see how some people would miss MP's. They just have different drumming philosophies.

And I still don't get the criticism that MM's drumming in DT12 is too technical. He's not doing things to show off. If anything, his drumming is actually very purposive in that almost all his hits and how he hits them are designed to complement a pattern being done by another member. He even complements the melodies with his toms and cymbals being played melodically.

[Grizz]

It's actually that MP is the dominant alpha-male husband while MM is more of a submissive pleasure machine of a husband. Once the divorce happened the now-single DT wanted a turn on top, so she dated around a bit before setting on him.

Gotta love the marriage analogies.

[Xenon]

What bothers me about MM is that if you listen to his performances outside DT he is fantastic, and much more fun to listen.
Maybe he run out of ideas, or maybe DT guys tell him what they wanted and he did it very well.

Don'tcha think it's still a little too early to really make that judgement? He's practically still "the new guy" and while DT12 was supposed to be him "unleashed", I'd still rather wait a couple more before really making any solid assessment like that. I can judge his performance on DT12, but not his performance as a DT member -- not yet at least.

I was making no judgment. Just pointed out that.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I personally want them to hold off on the new album. I think they should do another North American leg and maybe another leg somewhere else and enter the studio to write in the middle of 2015 and have the album out by 2016. They don't have to release an album every 2 years. A 3 year wait for the next album would be fine and would give them more time to come up with the best music possible. I'm always happy for new DT music, but I can wait.

[nikatapi]

I feel like MM does way more doubling of guitar and bass patterns in his drum patterns, whereas MP's drumming seemed more to me like it added a new rhythmic texture into the sound and didn't just echo what everyone else was doing.

It's because MM's approach to drumming in a band is like playing bass guitar. MP plays more like he's a lead guitar type of guy. Even in his crazy Egg Zooming piece with Mike Keneally, he's doing polyrhythms but those are complementing the other instruments. If you search videos of him playing with Vai and Nuno, that's really the approach he takes. Personally, I prefer much much more MM's style, but I can see how some people would miss MP's. They just have different drumming philosophies.

And I still don't get the criticism that MM's drumming in DT12 is too technical. He's not doing things to show off. If anything, his drumming is actually very purposive in that almost all his hits and how he hits them are designed to complement a pattern being done by another member. He even complements the melodies with his toms and cymbals being played melodically.

Agreed on all points. It's a different approach on drumming, something that needs some time to get used to, and it's incredibly musical, just in a different way. He is listening to each instrument and compliments patterns and grooves either with his kick drums or cymbals, it's something pretty cool even though sometimes i would like him to just be upfront and surprise the listener with a rhythmic twist.

But i think the way he plays is an expression of how he feels the music, not focused mainly on being technical, he feels the groove in a very unique way and his technicality allows him to play what he feels is appropriate. A good example is this video of him explaining the syncopated riff on Illumination Theoryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmrjnODMsQ, it's very natural even though technical.

So i think it's a matter of expectation most of all, if someone expects MM to play like MP, it's not going to happen, he has a different approach. That being said, i think that MM has quite a lot to give to DT's music, and hopefully a better drum production will allow the listener to grasp what he is doing without struggling to hear the cymbals this time.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

What bothers me about MM is that if you listen to his performances outside DT he is fantastic, and much more fun to listen.
Maybe he run out of ideas, or maybe DT guys tell him what they wanted and he did it very well.

Don'tcha think it's still a little too early to really make that judgement? He's practically still "the new guy" and while DT12 was supposed to be him "unleashed", I'd still rather wait a couple more before really making any solid assessment like that. I can judge his performance on DT12, but not his performance as a DT member -- not yet at least.

I was making no judgment. Just pointed out that.

"Judgement" was a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said "assumption". The "assumption" I was referring to was that MM had run out of ideas.

[Rodni Demental]

It's a different approach on drumming, something that needs some time to get used to, and it's incredibly musical, just in a different way. He is listening to each instrument and compliments patterns and grooves either with his kick drums or cymbals, it's something pretty cool even though sometimes i would like him to just be upfront and surprise the listener with a rhythmic twist.

But i think the way he plays is an expression of how he feels the music, not focused mainly on being technical, he feels the groove in a very unique way and his technicality allows him to play what he feels is appropriate. A good example is this video of him explaining the syncopated riff on Illumination Theoryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmrjnODMsQ, it's very natural even though technical.

So i think it's a matter of expectation most of all, if someone expects MM to play like MP, it's not going to happen, he has a different approach. That being said, i think that MM has quite a lot to give to DT's music, and hopefully a better drum production will allow the listener to grasp what he is doing without struggling to hear the cymbals this time.

That video just blew my mind.. Also very much agree with what you're saying here. Especially about people expecting him to be MP which is just not how it's gonna go.

[erwinrafael]

The video reinforces my belief that MM is much more integral in the songwriting process than the notion being spread by some posters that he is just following the other members' lead. No way that part in IT would be written without MM's input (or even lead) as the bass and drum pattern is tailored to the style of counting odd signatures that he described.

[The Stray Seed]

^ This!

[rumborak]

I think you guys are beating down strawmen. Nobody wants or expects MM to sound like MP, nor do people say that he had no influence in the writing process of DT12.
I think what most people are saying is that even though his playing meshes well in the songs, he's not left that indelible mark that everybody expected from such a prodigious player.
I think everybody was on the edge of their seat for ADTOE thinking "what are we going to hear from a Berklee teacher who can play singlehanded rolls?", but then everybody took the " well, JP wrote the drums for that album " reason for not being too impressed. I think DT12 created a certain consternation because we were told we were going to hear "MM unleashed", but then that wasn't really the case.

[erwinrafael]

I think you guys are beating down strawmen. Nobody wants or expects MM to sound like MP, nor do people say that he had no influence in the writing process of DT12.
I think what most people are saying is that even though his playing meshes well in the songs, he's not left that indelible mark that everybody expected from such a prodigious player.
I think everybody was on the edge of their seat for ADTOE thinking "what are we going to hear from a Berklee teacher who can play singlehanded rolls?", but then everybody took the " well, JP wrote the drums for that album " reason for not being too impressed. I think DT12 created a certain consternation because we were told we were going to hear "MM unleashed", but then that wasn't really the case.

I think it's a bit disingenious to make it appear that we are beating strawmen when we have repeating  complaints of MM not being as musical or not having groove like MP. That MM is all technicality but not musical. That all MM's fills are about hand speed but not musical. NOBODY is saying these? Please.  So we go out of our way to react to imagjned comments?

[rumborak]

Yes, people have said that MP has more groove and more musicality. However, that doesn't mean they want MM to sound more like MP. It simply means they want MM to have more groove and be more musical.

[erwinrafael]

If you read back, my reply was to lucidity's post where a direct comparison between MM and MP is made regarding MM just doubling what the other instruments are doing. i argued that the approaches are just different, so we can not really expect MM to approach drumming the wy MP did. Just read back, there are no strawmen here.

[erwinrafael]

Just want to give examples of MM's drumming outside DT, to make the point that he is not being more technical or drumming with less feel in DT. I think the following are excellent examples of MM's style.

The infamous Egg Zooming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA

Then the drum machine-like emulation in Midnight Express: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhqGPKfqvA

And the Fire Garden Suite cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1-8j9zhdOE

Those are pretty good displays of MM's drumming, and in a way, I would agree that those sounded different from how he played in DT so far. But I believe that the drumming approach is the same. If you listen to the songs, MM always plays musically in the context of the song, complementing what the other instruments are doing.  It's the same approach that he brings with DT. He just sounded different because the songs are different. He plays to what the song is asking for.

If you slow down the Midnight Express drums, for example, it's quite similar to how he drummed Paradox of the Black Light in Illumination Theory. The way he played toms and cymbals in Fire Garden Suite, you can see some of that in The Enemy Inside, Behind the Veil, some parts of The Looking Glass, and the instrumental parts in Illumination Theory. For me, who has been following MM since I first heard him in Extreme, I got what I expected in DT12, which is him drumming musically in the context of the songs. I expect that he would continue to do so in DT 2015. If we want him to go batshit crazy, then there must be songs that would make him go batshit crazy in the context of the song (like the solo in Surrender to Reason).

[tiagodon]

If DT really wanted a guy that sounded close to MP they would have chosen Virgil Donati and not Mangini.

[hefdaddy42]

Yes, MM definitely plays WITH the other instruments.  MP just played ALONGSIDE the other instruments.  He only rarely paired up with JM, never really forming a real rhythm section at all. 

Not that there is anything wrong with that - that was just the style he played, and obviously what worked for DT all those years.

[rumborak]

If DT really wanted a guy that sounded close to MP they would have chosen Virgil Donati and not Mangini.

Wot

[hefdaddy42]

If DT really wanted a guy that sounded close to MP they would have chosen Virgil Donati and not Mangini.

Wot

I didn't get it either.  Maybe I'm missing something?

[tiagodon]

You know who Virgil Donati is, don't you? Have you ever listened to the guy? Have you listened to "In this life", his last album?
His drumming style is like MP's. He adds to the songs. He plays alongside the instruments, not with the instruments, as someone put here.
If DT wanted a guy with that style, Donati would have been the winner in those auditions.

[Dublagent66]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe they didn't want someone that sounded like MP?  Also, it wasn't just drumming ability they were looking for.  They wanted chemistry as well.  That's mostly why they picked MM, already knowing right from the start that his abilities as a drummer were more than adequate.

[Xenon]

That's pretty much what he was saying

[hefdaddy42]

You know who Virgil Donati is, don't you? Have you ever listened to the guy? Have you listened to "In this life", his last album?
His drumming style is like MP's. He adds to the songs. He plays alongside the instruments, not with the instruments, as someone put here.
If DT wanted a guy with that style, Donati would have been the winner in those auditions.

He may do that, but his style isn't really like MP's.

[Kotowboy]

If DT really wanted a guy that sounded close to MP they would have chosen Virgil Donati and not Mangini.

Wot

I didn't get it either.  Maybe I'm missing something?

My vote was for Thomas Lang. He has MP's kind of charisma and huge sound and playing style but he still has the crazy multi-limb independence and crazy technical chops of Mangini.

He was my perfect choice. But i've been a huge Thomas Lang fan since about 2004.

When I went to ACM to do my music degree - one of the Theory / Bass tutors was Austrian and his voice was almost identical to Thomas Lang.

Stefan Redtenbacher if anyone has heard of him...

[rumborak]

You know who Virgil Donati is, don't you? Have you ever listened to the guy? Have you listened to "In this life", his last album?
His drumming style is like MP's. He adds to the songs. He plays alongside the instruments, not with the instruments, as someone put here.
If DT wanted a guy with that style, Donati would have been the winner in those auditions.

He may do that, but his style isn't really like MP's.

Yeah, I don't get that either. Donati is a drummer with a clear leaning towards fusion. MP is much more a hard-hitting rock drummer. I honestly find very little similarity between the two, and was even surprised when they invited him.

[RaiseTheKnife]

You know that little part at the end of Illumination Theory? The easter egg?

They should write music like that. It would be a huge change in direction (at least for an album) and I think they could pull off some beautiful songs. Abandon the prog metal label for a time, just create something more subtle and restrained. Too bad they won't do it.

What?  You don't have any of Jordan's solo releases or improv shows?  I mean, just buy any of those.  They are good and give you exactly what you mention above.

[James Mypetgiress]

Well, I think most bands actually usually have a songwriting core of one or two people, and when there's more than one who live in different places (say, Kevin Moore and Jim Matheos), they send files around with ideas etc.

Honestly, given how much DT are spending time with each other on tour, it's kinda surprising they don't also write on tour. A lot of bands try out new stuff on the bus or during soundcheck.

You mentioned Kevin Moore... And people didn't start talking about... Kevin Moore! ITS A SEPTEMBER MIRACLE!!!

[Dublagent66]

You know that little part at the end of Illumination Theory? The easter egg?

They should write music like that. It would be a huge change in direction (at least for an album) and I think they could pull off some beautiful songs. Abandon the prog metal label for a time, just create something more subtle and restrained. Too bad they won't do it.

Well, the easter egg is a separate piece but do you know the end of IT and how it sounds exactly like the end of SDOIT?  I wish they would do more stuff like that.

[cramx3]

You know that little part at the end of Illumination Theory? The easter egg?

They should write music like that. It would be a huge change in direction (at least for an album) and I think they could pull off some beautiful songs. Abandon the prog metal label for a time, just create something more subtle and restrained. Too bad they won't do it.

Well, the easter egg is a separate piece but do you know the end of IT and how it sounds exactly like the end of SDOIT?  I wish they would do more stuff like that.

Or John and Jordan can do another album together of pieces like that.  I mean, that spot is really nice and I do like it, but if DT put an album of that out, it would be pretty detrimental to the band I would think.

[Dublagent66]

You know that little part at the end of Illumination Theory? The easter egg?

They should write music like that. It would be a huge change in direction (at least for an album) and I think they could pull off some beautiful songs. Abandon the prog metal label for a time, just create something more subtle and restrained. Too bad they won't do it.

Well, the easter egg is a separate piece but do you know the end of IT and how it sounds exactly like the end of SDOIT?  I wish they would do more stuff like that.

...but if DT put an album of that out, it would be pretty detrimental to the band I would think.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.