Author Topic: How can people think DT are bad?  (Read 7984 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2014, 01:35:31 PM »
It's just hard for some people to grasp the concept that other people won't like the things they like.
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Offline Nearmyth

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2014, 01:40:55 PM »
^ Yep. Especially when it comes down to the different scenarios of someone getting introduced to certain music. One who discovered DT versus the person being shown DT by a friend could have very different first impressions.
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Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2014, 02:17:11 PM »
... Now I feel bad for starting this post. It makes me come across as a dick. (I'm not, I swear)

Offline Nearmyth

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2014, 06:25:29 PM »
I'm sure a lot of the stuff being said isn't pointed towards you. It's just good general discussion, that's all  :)
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2014, 07:08:01 PM »
Using an entire genre wasn't a very good example on my part, I was just giving the example that what some people love to death others could dislike. Of course a pop-punk fan could like one band of the genre but dislike another. And someone who doesn't like pop-punk could easily like a song here or there, like how someone who isn't into DT could like a few of their songs. It also isn't very accurate to say "Dream Theater has done almost every genre, so everyone should like them!" It's like I was saying where a fan of a genre could like one band but dislike another band from that genre. I love DT but I'm not huge into, say, Haken. Albeit, it's hard to find someone who does prefer it the other way around, but that's not the point.

Well, sure, I'm not saying that there's at least one DT song for everyone... I mean, I AM saying that, but it's more of a positive mantra I use to introduce my friends to DT, than a factual statement. But still, statistically speaking, I think DT's body of work is diverse enough, that anyone who's not only obsessed with one genre, or one type of sound, i.e. majority of people in the world, would enjoy at least SOME of DT's catalogue.

And yes, that's the other thing. I mean, personally, I'm not a fan of Pantera, I don't really like their sound. But I'm not just gonna be a dick about it and say they suck. I understand what they did, and I understand why it's good, and I sure as hell can respect them, even if they're not for me.
The problem is that this is the internet, and on the internet, for most people, if they personally don't like something, they'll usually just say, "This sucks." But that has much more to do with those peoples' intellectual shortcomings and  incapability of forming proper creative criticisms. And people like that, I just don't bother taking seriously.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2014, 07:38:30 PM »
... Now I feel bad for starting this post. It makes me come across as a dick. (I'm not, I swear)

Don't take it personally or anything, it just happens to be a topic that probably all of us can relate to so everyone's probably got something to say about it.  :coolio

Offline Skeever

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2014, 07:53:50 PM »
It's just hard for some people to grasp the concept that other people won't like the things they like.
truth telling right here folks

Offline splent

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2014, 08:47:04 PM »
It's true...

BUT what if your first exposure to DT was this??
https://yourmajesty.ytmnd.com

First impressions go a long way...
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Offline XB0BX

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2014, 09:36:51 PM »
It's true...

BUT what if your first exposure to DT was this??
https://yourmajesty.ytmnd.com

First impressions go a long way...

That loops really well and actually makes a catchy song when played repeatedly.

Offline adastra

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2014, 10:43:28 PM »
If I'd have started listening DT in 2011,  I would propably said that "this band isn't special" (propably wouldn't say bad though).
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2014, 01:11:55 AM »
It's just hard for some people to grasp the concept that other people won't like the things they like.

It's worse when you're *meant* to like something.


Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2014, 02:26:02 AM »
Nevermind>WDADU

*Hides behind blast door but in all honesty I don't think i'll have to but does it anyway just to be on the safe side*
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Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2014, 03:24:52 AM »
It's just hard for some people to grasp the concept that other people won't like the things they like.

Thanks for this post!!!

Offline Juular

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2014, 07:20:53 AM »
I like Dream Theater. I also like Motörhead and the Ramones.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2014, 08:23:49 AM »
Me: Here, let me show you a really good song *puts on Caught In A Web*
"Friend": meh... it's nothin' special
Me: HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOTHING SPECIAL? DREAM THEATER ARE FUCKING GODS! THEY ARE THE BEST MUSICIANS ALIVE, AND YOU CALL THIS NOTHING SPECIAL, YET YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE FUCKING SEX PISTOLS AND CALL THEM "MASTERS OF MUSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Friend": *I'm not saying my real name,* you're scaring me

Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

Or maybe they're not into DT because they're a very niche group with rather limited appeal, especially to someone who appreciates the short, catchy songs and the raw sound of punk bands?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 08:32:28 AM by theseoafs »

Offline Viking of the Sagas

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2014, 09:49:14 AM »
I can easily see why people don't like DT. It's complicated music and the musical arrangements and solos can make anyone dizzy. If you're just hearing them normally without previous experience the songs sound really flashy and flaunting.

Offline bosk1

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2014, 10:02:37 AM »
Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

???  What's wrong with Quest for Fire?
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2014, 10:09:27 AM »
Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

???  What's wrong with Quest for Fire?

It's just nothing special as Maiden songs go, in the same way that Caught in a Web isn't anything special as DT songs go.  If I told my friend I didn't know any Maiden and he put on Quest for Fire, insisting it was literally the work of "gods" and the "best musicians alive", I would be very disturbed and confused.  Caught in a Web and Quest for Fire are IMO terrible as introduction songs to their respective bands, though of course this is all subjective so your mileage may vary with the analogy.

Offline splent

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2014, 12:29:13 PM »
Me: Here, let me show you a really good song *puts on Caught In A Web*
"Friend": meh... it's nothin' special
Me: HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOTHING SPECIAL? DREAM THEATER ARE FUCKING GODS! THEY ARE THE BEST MUSICIANS ALIVE, AND YOU CALL THIS NOTHING SPECIAL, YET YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE FUCKING SEX PISTOLS AND CALL THEM "MASTERS OF MUSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Friend": *I'm not saying my real name,* you're scaring me

Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

Or maybe they're not into DT because they're a very niche group with rather limited appeal, especially to someone who appreciates the short, catchy songs and the raw sound of punk bands?

Exactly.  Caught in a Web is NOT the epitome of DT by any means... one of the weakest songs on Awake imo.  I would have put on Metropolis or something.  But if they are into punk, specifically the Sex Pistols, who are as anti-prog as they come, then they aren't going to like DT anyway.
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Offline splent

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2014, 12:29:49 PM »
It's true...

BUT what if your first exposure to DT was this??
https://yourmajesty.ytmnd.com

First impressions go a long way...

That loops really well and actually makes a catchy song when played repeatedly.

Thank you.  That was the point actually ;)  But nothing beats the YAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH becaue the YAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH is one of the most epic things DT ever did
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2014, 12:42:31 PM »
... Now I feel bad for starting this post. It makes me come across as a dick. (I'm not, I swear)


Nah, don't worry about it.  Your post sparked a good thread, that's how these things go sometimes; they take on a life of their own that often has very little to do with the original post.  I doubt if anyone here thinks you're a dick.   :)


As for the topic, I've had my share of lively debates with my brothers, my wife and her sisters and my in-laws, etc.  My two brothers (both younger) enjoyed some pretty decent music as kids and they still listen to stuff that's currently being played on FM Rock Radio (ClearChannel, et al), but they also enjoy quite a few of the old classics like Iron Maiden, Triumph, Rush, etc.  One of them listens to some female-fronted progrock band, I think they're called Within Temptation or something like that.   Anyway, I've spoken with them about Dream Theater, and showed them a few songs that I thought they might like.  They thought it was OK, but one of the things I've noticed with this process of turning people on to Dream Theater and to prog in general:  Average music listeners expect vocals pretty much immediately in any song you play for them.  Big, long, chaotic and/or bombastic instrumental introductions on many of these tunes result in a "when are they going to sing?" comment almost every time I try to show a band like this to someone not familiar with Progressive Metal.


From a purely objective position, I believe there is a case that one could make in support of the idea that Dream Theater is a functionally superior group of musicians who are all clearly virtuoso-level players.  Not too many of today's so-called "popular artists" are anywhere near as accomplished on their instruments, nor in the science of music theory.  So, in that sort of dry, detached, analytic description, yes, Dream Theater is a "better" band than Nickleback. 


But how does one define "success" in music?  In my view, the artist who is "successful" in the music business has very little to do with their music theory prowess or how technically well they play their instruments.  It's got more to do with connecting with listeners on an emotional level than anything else.  If you can't connect with listeners, your ability to recite the cycle of 5ths or sight-read a complex musical score isn't worth diddly squat.  No one gives a shit that you can blast out a 4-octave mixolydian scale @ 250BPM without even thinking about it.    Yeah, sure, that's pretty cool to music theory geeks and aspiring guitar-slingers like me, but to the average person -the average music listener-the only thing that matters is whether or not they can sing along with it and how long it will stay stuck in their heads.


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2014, 01:40:31 PM »
Agreed.  And that's OK.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2014, 01:47:39 PM »


From a purely objective position, I believe there is a case that one could make in support of the idea that Dream Theater is a functionally superior group of musicians who are all clearly virtuoso-level players.  Not too many of today's so-called "popular artists" are anywhere near as accomplished on their instruments, nor in the science of music theory.  So, in that sort of dry, detached, analytic description, yes, Dream Theater is a "better" band than Nickleback. 

Forget about the actual example, but as a general question, how do you know?  That DT probably plays closer to their maximum potential more often than [inset band] doesn't in and of itself mean that [insert band]'s maximum potential is less.  Just that they don't, as a collective, play to it as much.   I love DT; one of my favorite bands, and as a general rule I tend toward prog more than any other genre but I rarely listen to DT because of shred virtuosity (ironically, the exception to that is Portnoy). 

I just don't get the notion of trying to "convince" someone to like what I do.  I could care less.   It's almost all visceral; kind of like saying "my wife is hotter than your wife".


Oh, and "Quest For Fire" blows. 

Offline Nearmyth

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2014, 02:03:47 PM »
Well, sure, I'm not saying that there's at least one DT song for everyone... I mean, I AM saying that, but it's more of a positive mantra I use to introduce my friends to DT, than a factual statement. But still, statistically speaking, I think DT's body of work is diverse enough, that anyone who's not only obsessed with one genre, or one type of sound, i.e. majority of people in the world, would enjoy at least SOME of DT's catalogue.

And yes, that's the other thing. I mean, personally, I'm not a fan of Pantera, I don't really like their sound. But I'm not just gonna be a dick about it and say they suck. I understand what they did, and I understand why it's good, and I sure as hell can respect them, even if they're not for me.
The problem is that this is the internet, and on the internet, for most people, if they personally don't like something, they'll usually just say, "This sucks." But that has much more to do with those peoples' intellectual shortcomings and  incapability of forming proper creative criticisms. And people like that, I just don't bother taking seriously.

 :tup

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2014, 02:14:53 PM »
But how does one define "success" in music?  In my view, the artist who is "successful" in the music business has very little to do with their music theory prowess or how technically well they play their instruments.  It's got more to do with connecting with listeners on an emotional level than anything else.  If you can't connect with listeners, your ability to recite the cycle of 5ths or sight-read a complex musical score isn't worth diddly squat.  No one gives a shit that you can blast out a 4-octave mixolydian scale @ 250BPM without even thinking about it.    Yeah, sure, that's pretty cool to music theory geeks and aspiring guitar-slingers like me, but to the average person -the average music listener-the only thing that matters is whether or not they can sing along with it and how long it will stay stuck in their heads.

That's pretty much all there is to it in terms of one of the things that defines success in music.  In essence, when listening to something for the 1st time ever with pretty much no knowledge of the band or genre, it comes down to this question.  Do I want to listen to this song or this act again?  If you say yes, then establishing between the connection between listener and musician has been made, and some acts do it really well enough to play in arena/stadium venues.

This kind of question may be somewhat hard to answer for those trying to get into DT with no idea of what the band is or what genre they play.  Heck, I had a hard time getting into them, at first, but I knew that somewhere along the lines there was going to be some songs that I can connect well with, that I want listen to it again, that I can probably karaoke sing-along to and some people just don't feel that kind of way, but there's nothing wrong with that.  That's just how it is.  It's up to them whether or not they want to invest the time to listen to DT.  If they really hate prog-metal, then well, getting them to make believers in DT is a mountain climb.  Not saying that it is impossible, but if they are so lenient on not seeing why DT is great, then that's on them and they are going to stick that philosophy and there's nothing we can do about it.  It's up to them whether or not they want to explore it.

Offline Sebiriver

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2014, 02:49:27 PM »
Could it be because you putted a fucking horrible song?

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2014, 02:51:55 PM »
Yeah, I don't know why he putted that one.

Offline Zook

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2014, 02:53:38 PM »
Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

???  What's wrong with Quest for Fire?

It's a terrible song.

But Caught in a Web isn't.

Offline Enalya

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2014, 03:47:00 AM »
My boyfriend hates JLB's vocals T.T He kinda likes the music, so I stubbornly put it on anyway. Really loud.

My bro just thinks DT makes complicated shit for the sake of complicated (no catchy feel to it). I think he's wrong about the catchy part, that really happens to me when you get to know the songs.

EDIT: kirksnosehair's post really represents what I'm thinking. And why it's so hard for me to share DT's music and my love for it with others. You can't just make people listen to one song - they're always distracted and the atmosphere is never right somehow :-\
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 03:52:25 AM by Enalya »

Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2014, 04:42:34 AM »
The Japanese say: a frog in a well cannot conceive of the ocean.

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2014, 06:02:05 AM »
This post was brought to you by Puppyonacid and subsequently ignored.

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Offline wolven74

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #101 on: September 03, 2014, 09:03:17 AM »
I've tried introducing DT to people before. Sometimes it works and they like them, but would only listen to them if I happen to be listening to them when we're doing something together. Other times they just nod and smile with a blank uncomprehending look on their face. I find this to be the case more often than not. That's ok. DT is my thing. Some people get it (like us) and some people don't.

Some people are just weird.
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Offline Chino

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #102 on: September 03, 2014, 09:04:30 AM »
I think Lil' Wayne is the biggest piece of shit to have ever been given the title 'artist', but there are millions of people who pay to see him in concert that would strongly disagree with me.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #103 on: September 03, 2014, 10:06:58 AM »
Me: Here, let me show you a really good song *puts on Caught In A Web*
"Friend": meh... it's nothin' special
Me: HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOTHING SPECIAL? DREAM THEATER ARE FUCKING GODS! THEY ARE THE BEST MUSICIANS ALIVE, AND YOU CALL THIS NOTHING SPECIAL, YET YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE FUCKING SEX PISTOLS AND CALL THEM "MASTERS OF MUSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Friend": *I'm not saying my real name,* you're scaring me

Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

Or maybe they're not into DT because they're a very niche group with rather limited appeal, especially to someone who appreciates the short, catchy songs and the raw sound of punk bands?
I put on caught in a web because, in my house, caught in a web is the only song my entire family can agree to be great, and, because it's my opinion that it's a great song

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #104 on: September 03, 2014, 10:11:40 AM »
Maybe they're not into DT because you put on Caught in a Web -- which is not a particularly good song by any metric -- and insisted it's the mark of "fucking gods" who are the "best musicians alive"?  I wouldn't be into Iron Maiden if my first exposure to them was you put on Quest for Fire, claiming it was "godly". 

???  What's wrong with Quest for Fire?

It's a terrible song.

But Caught in a Web isn't.
Hooray, someone agrees with me. Caught in a web is a great song!ˇ