Author Topic: How can people think DT are bad?  (Read 7940 times)

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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #105 on: September 03, 2014, 10:16:22 AM »
People have different tastes.

I'd tell you to get over it. But you won't. You'll just grow too tired to care to talk about it.

And in the future when somebody says something like "Oh I'll listen to anything I can dance to." You''ll just roll your eyes and carry on.

That is the struggle of the mature prog fan.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #106 on: September 03, 2014, 10:22:31 AM »
Caught in a Web is a great song. Wtf people, why am I the one defending an Awake track? :lol
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #107 on: September 03, 2014, 10:24:27 AM »
It is. But it's still mid-tier DT.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2014, 10:28:30 AM »
I wouldn't use it as proof that DT were musical gods or anything, but I'd have no problem using it as an example of DT writing great, concise songs. It's a damn good little tune. I really don't rank the longer/proggier stuff as any better than the shorter length more straightforward (relatively speaking) stuff, so I'm a bit different there. "Mid tier" just sounds like..... such a prog thing to say. :lol
And I think it's a pretty good song to show to a new fan if they were into metal, and enjoyed a catchy chorus.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline bosk1

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2014, 10:54:13 AM »
And I think it's a pretty good song to show to a new fan if they were into metal, and enjoyed a catchy chorus.

Exactly, but why are we even talking about Quest for Fire again? 
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Offline TAC

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2014, 10:57:43 AM »
I bought Awake the day it came out, and after 6:00 and Caught In A Web, I almost shut off the CD player and cried. And while Innocence Faded has really aged nicely, I think I did cry after that. For years I thought the album started with Erotomania.

DT has made worse songs than Caught In A Web, but it was probably my "first" least favorite DT song.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #111 on: September 03, 2014, 11:15:02 AM »
I bought Awake the day it came out, and after 6:00 and Caught In A Web, I almost shut off the CD player and cried. And while Innocence Faded has really aged nicely, I think I did cry after that. For years I thought the album started with Erotomania.

DT has made worse songs than Caught In A Web, but it was probably my "first" least favorite DT song.

Now I'm the exact opposite:  I got into DT with I&W, and also bought Awake on release, and was blown away by everything on there.   And isn't that the point?   We like the same band but can't agree on what is their "best", so how can any song be looked at as the definitive entry way into the band?   Also factor in what I believe to be a truism (that your favorite era of a band is the era in which you were introduced to the band) and you have something that is so subjective as to be useless. 

I'm also trying to keep the tangents to a minimum, but anyone that knows me knows I take what @TheGreatPretender said to an extreme, in that I don't believe that anyone but the artist themselves can say that art is "good" or "bad" (and even then it is only "how close did the final piece come to my vision?").  We can only say that we like it or we don't, or that it emotionally touches us or it doesn't.  Anything else is wasted breath.   

Offline bosk1

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2014, 12:15:09 PM »
Also factor in what I believe to be a truism (that your favorite era of a band is the era in which you were introduced to the band)...

I would modify your truism just a bit:  one's favorite era of a band is typically the era in which the band "clicked" for that person.  I am that way with a lot of bands.  Case in point, I was introduced to Dream Theater in 1992 with Images, and I would definitely say I was a "fan" since that time.  But the band was on a very slow climb for me until the early Jordan era, namely SFAM and SDOIT.  That, to me, is by far my favorite era of the band (although the Mangini era is becoming a strong contender).  Same goes for countless other bands in my collection as well.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2014, 12:23:54 PM »
That would explain your unorthodox views on I&W.   :biggrin:
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Offline bosk1

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2014, 12:30:18 PM »
It's a very good album.  It's just that they have released so many stellar albums that I&W easily gets outshined by many of them.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2014, 12:33:23 PM »
It's a very good album.  It's just that they have released so many stellar albums that I&W easily gets outshined by many of them.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2014, 04:22:49 PM »
How we've discussed a song on Awake this long without the topic switching to Kevin Moore amazes me.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2014, 04:43:05 PM »
How we've discussed a song on Awake this long without the topic switching to Kevin Moore amazes me.

He'll never be welcome again.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2014, 07:29:06 PM »
Also factor in what I believe to be a truism (that your favorite era of a band is the era in which you were introduced to the band) and you have something that is so subjective as to be useless. 

You could be on to something there, would explain my inexplicable appreciation for BC&SL (and maybe even SC but not quite to the same extent) despite the flak they both get from the wider community. Dunno how other people's experience on this theory would relate though. :P

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2014, 08:42:46 PM »
How we've discussed a song on Awake this long without the topic switching to Kevin Moore amazes me.
And there it is.



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Offline Mosh

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2014, 08:46:40 PM »
That's a great point. Why didn't you show your friend Space Dye Vest or Lie or something?

Why are you even showing him Dream Theater? Should just have him start with OSI.  :hat
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Offline Xenon

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #121 on: September 03, 2014, 10:18:13 PM »
If someone thinks DT are bad, show them something like TDEN or Scarred and whisper in his/her ear "it could be worse".

Offline puppyonacid

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2014, 05:44:48 AM »
....it could be the Answer Lies Within or Hollow Years
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #123 on: September 04, 2014, 08:19:05 AM »
Also factor in what I believe to be a truism (that your favorite era of a band is the era in which you were introduced to the band) and you have something that is so subjective as to be useless. 

You could be on to something there, would explain my inexplicable appreciation for BC&SL (and maybe even SC but not quite to the same extent) despite the flak they both get from the wider community. Dunno how other people's experience on this theory would relate though. :P

And why "Abacab" and "Three Sides Live" are my No. 2 and No. 3 favorite Genesis albums of all time. 

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #124 on: September 04, 2014, 10:11:15 AM »
I would have showed him SDV, but that's even more un punk and the opposite to what he likes than Caught In A Web!¡

Offline Implode

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #125 on: September 04, 2014, 11:38:35 AM »
When showing DT to people, I find that it's best to show them their best rather than picking a song that's closer to a genre the listener might like. Most likely, that song isn't nearly as good of an effort as DT's tier 1 material. DT has a lot of amazing music but also a lot of "just okay" songs.  I've found more success in converting through showing DT's strengths rather than the listener's preferences.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 12:14:12 PM by Implode »

Offline RoeDent

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #126 on: September 04, 2014, 11:46:54 AM »
Exactly. If they won't accept DT at their best, then DT is not for them.

Offline Tick

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #127 on: September 04, 2014, 12:03:08 PM »
I have never really had any of my friends not like the level of musicianship of DT. The biggest criticism is usually... "I think they are cool, I just don't like the outdated 80's style singer"
I understand that a lot of people are not going to dig DT. In a world where popular music consists of Lady Gaga, Pitbull, Katy Perry, and a lot of other vomit inducing music, why would I think a lot of people would like DT?
In the end I love them and I don't care much who doesn't.
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Offline Viking of the Sagas

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #128 on: September 04, 2014, 12:40:15 PM »
I wouldn't use it as proof that DT were musical gods or anything, but I'd have no problem using it as an example of DT writing great, concise songs. It's a damn good little tune. I really don't rank the longer/proggier stuff as any better than the shorter length more straightforward (relatively speaking) stuff, so I'm a bit different there. "Mid tier" just sounds like..... such a prog thing to say. :lol
And I think it's a pretty good song to show to a new fan if they were into metal, and enjoyed a catchy chorus.

You're spot on. I personally actually like the songs with more catchier or original tunes. Sometimes it really does feel like DT is being technical simply for the sake of being technical, and that may hurt the songwriting at times.

Offline Stadler

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #129 on: September 04, 2014, 01:12:28 PM »
I have never really had any of my friends not like the level of musicianship of DT. The biggest criticism is usually... "I think they are cool, I just don't like the outdated 80's style singer"
I understand that a lot of people are not going to dig DT. In a world where popular music consists of Lady Gaga, Pitbull, Katy Perry, and a lot of other vomit inducing music, why would I think a lot of people would like DT?
In the end I love them and I don't care much who doesn't.

Why do you have to slag other music to defend the music you like?   Assuming she was singing, and assuming it sounded like "Edge of Glory" as performed on Howard Stern a couple years ago, I think I would rather hear Lady Gaga at a piano than Jordan, even if Jordan, technically speaking, has better "piano technique".   That's not a knock on Jordan, by the way. 

Offline Tick

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #130 on: September 04, 2014, 01:34:06 PM »
I have never really had any of my friends not like the level of musicianship of DT. The biggest criticism is usually... "I think they are cool, I just don't like the outdated 80's style singer"
I understand that a lot of people are not going to dig DT. In a world where popular music consists of Lady Gaga, Pitbull, Katy Perry, and a lot of other vomit inducing music, why would I think a lot of people would like DT?
In the end I love them and I don't care much who doesn't.

Why do you have to slag other music to defend the music you like?   Assuming she was singing, and assuming it sounded like "Edge of Glory" as performed on Howard Stern a couple years ago, I think I would rather hear Lady Gaga at a piano than Jordan, even if Jordan, technically speaking, has better "piano technique".   That's not a knock on Jordan, by the way.
I'm giving my opinion. I don't like most pop music so I get that people don't like the stuff I listen too.
I'm slagging music I don't like? To who, a forum I post on? I'm not ripping my friends for what they listen too. I don't care.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #131 on: September 05, 2014, 08:26:22 AM »
I have never really had any of my friends not like the level of musicianship of DT. The biggest criticism is usually... "I think they are cool, I just don't like the outdated 80's style singer"
I understand that a lot of people are not going to dig DT. In a world where popular music consists of Lady Gaga, Pitbull, Katy Perry, and a lot of other vomit inducing music, why would I think a lot of people would like DT?
In the end I love them and I don't care much who doesn't.

Why do you have to slag other music to defend the music you like?   Assuming she was singing, and assuming it sounded like "Edge of Glory" as performed on Howard Stern a couple years ago, I think I would rather hear Lady Gaga at a piano than Jordan, even if Jordan, technically speaking, has better "piano technique".   That's not a knock on Jordan, by the way.
I'm giving my opinion. I don't like most pop music so I get that people don't like the stuff I listen too.
I'm slagging music I don't like? To who, a forum I post on? I'm not ripping my friends for what they listen too. I don't care.

I probably owe you an apology; it was the "vomit-inducing" and then the obligatory dismissal of the standard pop music names.  It's just a pet peeve of mine, as if what any one person likes or doesn't is relevant.  I dislike Bob Dylan with the passion of a thousand suns, it is virtually unlistenable to me, but it would be ridiculous of me to suggest that it is "vomit-inducing" or that my opinion is relevant to anyone but me.  The guy is clearly a legend and one of the most influential and meaningful artists of the 20th century. 

Offline Tick

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #132 on: September 05, 2014, 08:50:19 AM »
I have never really had any of my friends not like the level of musicianship of DT. The biggest criticism is usually... "I think they are cool, I just don't like the outdated 80's style singer"
I understand that a lot of people are not going to dig DT. In a world where popular music consists of Lady Gaga, Pitbull, Katy Perry, and a lot of other vomit inducing music, why would I think a lot of people would like DT?
In the end I love them and I don't care much who doesn't.

Why do you have to slag other music to defend the music you like?   Assuming she was singing, and assuming it sounded like "Edge of Glory" as performed on Howard Stern a couple years ago, I think I would rather hear Lady Gaga at a piano than Jordan, even if Jordan, technically speaking, has better "piano technique".   That's not a knock on Jordan, by the way.
I'm giving my opinion. I don't like most pop music so I get that people don't like the stuff I listen too.
I'm slagging music I don't like? To who, a forum I post on? I'm not ripping my friends for what they listen too. I don't care.

I probably owe you an apology; it was the "vomit-inducing" and then the obligatory dismissal of the standard pop music names.  It's just a pet peeve of mine, as if what any one person likes or doesn't is relevant.  I dislike Bob Dylan with the passion of a thousand suns, it is virtually unlistenable to me, but it would be ridiculous of me to suggest that it is "vomit-inducing" or that my opinion is relevant to anyone but me.  The guy is clearly a legend and one of the most influential and meaningful artists of the 20th century.
Well, vomit inducing may be a bit much. I guess I was trying to say that what the masses like is the polar opposite of DT so I am not surprised if someone doesn't like DT. Its not exactly toe tapping music (unless you are a seriously accomplished toe tapper)
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #133 on: September 05, 2014, 10:37:28 AM »
I don't like to brag, but toe-tapping is kind of a specialty of mine.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #134 on: September 05, 2014, 12:13:59 PM »
DT is a bit, excuse my analogy here, like a bodybuilding contest. I am sure if you asked any of the people following it, they would say "how can people not like this perfect combination of prowess and beauty?" By the numbers, bodybuilders are healthier, better in shape and whatnot. But, the majority of people rather look at Cameron Diaz in a bikini than a female bodybuilder.
Same with DT. By the numbers it is more skilled, more impressive, but I also totally get people who say "music isn't a competition. It's supposed to put me in a certain mood." And as much as I like DT ,their music rarely puts me in a mood.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #135 on: September 05, 2014, 12:46:16 PM »
Quote
DT is a bit, excuse my analogy here, like a bodybuilding contest. I am sure if you asked any of the people following it, they would say "how can people not like this perfect combination of prowess and beauty?" By the numbers, bodybuilders are healthier, better in shape and whatnot. But, the majority of people rather look at Cameron Diaz in a bikini than a female bodybuilder.
Same with DT. By the numbers it is more skilled, more impressive, but I also totally get people who say "music isn't a competition. It's supposed to put me in a certain mood." And as much as I like DT ,their music rarely puts me in a mood.

What would a band like Spiral Architect (who I consider to be great) or even Brain Drill (who I don't) be in this analogy? :lol

Also, if you get rid of the solos, many DT songs aren't even that technical apart from the odd tricky riff: PMU, NM, 'Strange Deja Vu', FAS, StR, TRoAE, SS, CiaW, BMU, BMD, OtBoA, 'Forsaken', 'The Mirror' aren't exactly overwhelmingly, in-your-face technical and all set some sort of mood. Even a more complex song like 'Outcry' has a purpose in its most technical moments as it conveys the chaos of a violent uprising perfectly. What else could could express crazy events better than crazy, angular music?

Sorry if I've misunderstood your post.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #136 on: September 05, 2014, 02:32:14 PM »
DT is a bit, excuse my analogy here, like a bodybuilding contest. I am sure if you asked any of the people following it, they would say "how can people not like this perfect combination of prowess and beauty?" By the numbers, bodybuilders are healthier, better in shape and whatnot. But, the majority of people rather look at Cameron Diaz in a bikini than a female bodybuilder.
Same with DT. By the numbers it is more skilled, more impressive, but I also totally get people who say "music isn't a competition. It's supposed to put me in a certain mood." And as much as I like DT ,their music rarely puts me in a mood.
I agree with your body building analogy, and, to a certain extent the thing about putting you in a certain mood, however, DTs songs put me in a number of moods, whereas, with other bands, it's mostly the same.
Ie. green day makes me want to get up, scream and sing along
Evanescence makes me feel quite sad and moody.
Dream Theater, however, does both and puts me in other moods, depending which song I listen to.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #137 on: September 05, 2014, 03:14:13 PM »
I love DT.

But I wouldn't mind Cameron Diaz in a bikini, either.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #138 on: September 05, 2014, 03:41:33 PM »
Sorry, is this the thread for talking about Mangini's in bikinis? 

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Re: How can people think DT are bad?
« Reply #139 on: September 05, 2014, 04:01:06 PM »
Not to change the subject or anything, but while searching google images for a good pic to photoshop Mangini's head onto a woman's body I came across some old pics of him with short hair. Not a bad look: