Author Topic: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton  (Read 25534 times)

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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #140 on: September 09, 2014, 10:40:44 AM »
When I saw them gathering all that gold I thought it was a group of robots gathering gold to fight the Cybermen.

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2014, 10:55:46 AM »
That might be something that comes up later. I mean, the Cybermen do feature in the season finale, as does the Promised Land (presumably - I don't think that this will another two-season arc, plus that on is called Death in Heaven).
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #142 on: September 10, 2014, 09:26:14 AM »
I really really don't like the cybermen.. Weakest of the DW bad guys.
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Offline abydos

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #143 on: September 10, 2014, 09:46:30 AM »
They are as weak and bad as the daleks. But at least the daleks had better stories written around them to carry them and it overshadowed the 60s cheesiness and generally being lame.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #144 on: September 10, 2014, 10:16:10 AM »
I love both the Cyberman and the Daleks, because I'm a sucker for robots (technically cyborgs, but they are very robot-y). Even when their episodes are bad, I like them. :lol

I generally much prefer the Dalek stories to the Cyberman ones, even though the Daleks are more overused. I have a feeling the Cybermen episode this season will be one of their better ones, given that it seems to tie into the overall season arc (no spoilers please).
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #145 on: September 10, 2014, 10:19:00 AM »
I want a Star Trek TNG cross over with Q in it. I think there would be a cool chemistry between Picard and Calpaldi. /dream

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2014, 11:17:36 AM »
Q is a time lord, he has to be

Offline abydos

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #147 on: September 10, 2014, 12:02:39 PM »
Q is the doctor before the Time War, travelling about and visiting TNG every once in a while.

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #148 on: September 10, 2014, 12:08:59 PM »
If anything, Q is The Master

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #149 on: September 10, 2014, 12:34:04 PM »
If anything, Q is The Master
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #150 on: September 10, 2014, 02:44:37 PM »
I think the Daleks are a bit overused too, but at least they have this reputation of being the ultimate unstoppable war-and-killing 'machine' of the universe. And the ones who fought against the Time Lords in a universally infamous war. That's a lot cooler than the lameness that is the Cybermen.
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Offline Onno

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #151 on: September 13, 2014, 04:31:40 PM »
Ok, so I caught up today and watched Robot of Sherwood before watching the new one. Especially Listen was absolutely amazing, wow. Loved that episode. Robot of Sherwood was also pretty good. I think the 'Promised Land' storyline so far is really interesting as well!

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #152 on: September 14, 2014, 02:50:45 AM »
I just finished watching Listen. I don't even know what to make of it yet. So much happening that I think I'm going to need to watch it again to digest. It wasn't at all what I expected. I was expecting monsters, but it was a lot more than that. I think I loved it. I'm not sure yet. :lol
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #153 on: September 14, 2014, 05:25:11 AM »
The impression I got from the episode was that it was great. But I'm a bit confused though. Was there a hiding-creature or not? I feel like they tried to end it as if there never was anything (given that they always careful to provide an 'alternate explanation' for the weird things that happened), but that means that some things in the episode made little sense.

But still, the impression I have is that it was great.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #154 on: September 14, 2014, 05:36:49 AM »
The impression I got from the episode was that it was great. But I'm a bit confused though. Was there a hiding-creature or not? I feel like they tried to end it as if there never was anything (given that they always careful to provide an 'alternate explanation' for the weird things that happened), but that means that some things in the episode made little sense.

I wondered about that too, as that was the major lingering point for that twist to work to me. Wikipedia's plot summary says "...the Doctor decides there is no such creature under the bed, and Rupert Pink's 'monster' was in fact another child at the children's home scaring him."
I don't recall that being specified, so I think that's just speculation, as this is Wikipedia. The "monster" was kept pretty vague, just a humanoid shape under the sheets who didn't do or say much, although you wouldn't expect a kid to act like that. But there's nothing that goes against it either. A lot of the rest of the tension of that scene could be explained by everyone else getting caught up in the paranoia and overreacting truly believing it was a monster in the moment.

I'm rewatching the episode right now to get a better grasp on the whole thing.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 06:26:12 AM by BlobVanDam »
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Offline Onno

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #155 on: September 14, 2014, 06:12:22 AM »
I think the monsters do exist, but since their whole purpose is to hide, they should never be seen. Clara ended up somewhere in time where the Doctor was still a child, and as a result provided the first instance for the Doctor to experience the 'something under your bed' thing. But in this case, it was Clara, not a monster. This instance may have caused the Doctor's longing of finding the creatures under the beds, but it also resulted in the Doctor understanding not to look for them (the "LISTEN" thing on the blackboard, which was what Clara repeated to the young doctor all the time). I think. :P

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #156 on: September 14, 2014, 06:25:16 AM »
I think the monsters do exist, but since their whole purpose is to hide, they should never be seen. Clara ended up somewhere in time where the Doctor was still a child, and as a result provided the first instance for the Doctor to experience the 'something under your bed' thing. But in this case, it was Clara, not a monster. This instance may have caused the Doctor's longing of finding the creatures under the beds, but it also resulted in the Doctor understanding not to look for them (the "LISTEN" thing on the blackboard, which was what Clara repeated to the young doctor all the time). I think. :P

I don't think the monsters ever existed. The Doctor's experience as a kid subconsciously gave him the obsession to search for answers when he read about similar dreams, and made him see patterns in things that weren't really there.
I finished rewatching the episode, and I quite liked it. I think The Doctor / Clara / Danny Pink all had some good development here, and a lot of things tied together in ways that will no doubt fit into the greater arcs of the season.


Also, Orson Pink makes reference stories from his grandparents and hands Clara the toy. My guess is this means Danny Pink is going to figure out that Clara is the one who visited him, and will be let in on The Doctor and travel with them, and pass down the story, so that Orson recognized Clara from the stories and gave her the figure. Or something like that. I'm guessing The Doctor will never find out that Clara was his monster under the bed. He didn't appear to recognize the toy, and the influence of that moment in his youth seems only to be a subconscious memory for him after those 2000+ years.

I've found that the episodes this season have had a more details and subtlety, so I've gotten a lot more from them on second viewing this season.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 06:46:33 AM by BlobVanDam »
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #157 on: September 14, 2014, 08:30:47 AM »
How do you explain the whole knocking on the space door then? I like Onno's theory. I was a bit disappointed that there was no reveal, but it was still a solid episode. Somebody on IMDB argued this might be the best first 4 episode run of nuWho, with possibly only season 5 to compete with it

Offline Dimitrius

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #158 on: September 14, 2014, 08:39:31 AM »
Yeah, I really liked 'Listen' even if that Clara bit towards the end in the cottage confused me a bit and was unnecessary.

I was liking Capaldi's Doctor but this episode made me love him!
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #159 on: September 14, 2014, 09:15:54 AM »
Holy shit dat callback to "An Unearthly Child". And that scene in the barn.

I really really really loved this episode. Easily my favourite of the season so far, everything was just really good. Danny Pink seems to be such an interesting character (though it is a little tiresome that we're having the third companion in a role with a huge tie-in and a backstory and timey-whimey, but it doesn't bother me a lot), and that whole exploration of fear itself was geniusly handled.

Much like Hide, this was a very small story that operated on the principle "Less is More" and it was all the better for it. Huge props to Steven Moffat, this is one of his best episodes on the show and a shining example of why he's my favourite scriptwriter.
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #160 on: September 14, 2014, 10:14:15 AM »
Well, this was easily one of my favourite DW episodes of all time. I just want to quote the ending of a review I found online:

"That is the triumph of this episode – not that the pieces thud together at the end, although they do, but that in an era when Doctor Who is written with cleverness and brazenness and cheek, this one is written with love."
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #161 on: September 14, 2014, 11:27:56 AM »
I loved every second of that episode! Especially the end!

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #162 on: September 14, 2014, 11:59:31 AM »
That was absolutely bloody brilliant!

My two cents - the monsters probably are real. The fact that all the characters seem to conclude that they are not doesn't mean anything - that's the whole point, the things stay hidden. I think that's probably the vibe that Moffat was going for.

And yes, it's very strongly implied that Osron is Danny and Clara's great grandson. But this is Moffat, and if it's very strongly implied then it is almost certainly not that simple. Blob, never trust Moffat!

Offline Jaq

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #163 on: September 14, 2014, 12:06:52 PM »
The monster not being defined is the point, actually.

Because the episode is really about the Doctor trying to figure out, in a moment when he was alone and bored and with nothing better to do, what grabbed him from under the bed as a child. Being the Doctor, of course he couldn't just say "someone was there", he had to invent a monster to justify his fear of the dark.
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Offline abydos

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #164 on: September 14, 2014, 12:53:13 PM »
Wasn't that big of a fan of the new episodes, even though they were good. They missed the "magic" of most of other Who. But like last season's Hide, this one was truly outstanding. There should be more episodes in this type, seems to be working much better than when they are trying to do "typical" who.

Finally Moffat delivers on the quality I expect. The creepiness was through the roof, this is why I think he should write solo much more and maybe put Sherlock on the back burner for a while.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #165 on: September 14, 2014, 02:07:11 PM »
Also, how the hell can they time travel to Gallifrey? That planet is gone from space and time, right? Isn't the Doctor's new life goal to find it? That would seem unnecessary if he could just time travel back to it with the Tardis.
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #166 on: September 14, 2014, 06:03:57 PM »
Just downloaded it. Will watch tomorrow probably.
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #167 on: September 14, 2014, 07:07:34 PM »
Yeah, I really liked 'Listen' even if that Clara bit towards the end in the cottage confused me a bit and was unnecessary.

I was liking Capaldi's Doctor but this episode made me love him!

You mean the barn? It wasn't unnecessary, it was what tied the whole episode together! The kid was The Doctor when he was young, and the barn was the same place he came back to as the War Doctor to activate The Moment to end the time war. Clara inadvertently became the reason The Doctor became obsessed with this dream being real, along with being a big influence on his life.


That was absolutely bloody brilliant!

My two cents - the monsters probably are real. The fact that all the characters seem to conclude that they are not doesn't mean anything - that's the whole point, the things stay hidden. I think that's probably the vibe that Moffat was going for.

And yes, it's very strongly implied that Osron is Danny and Clara's great grandson. But this is Moffat, and if it's very strongly implied then it is almost certainly not that simple. Blob, never trust Moffat!

It's not directly implied that Clara gets together with Danny (and I didn't mention so because I don't believe it's the case), and they expect and want fans to make that extrapolation, but that possibility felt like a bit of a red herring to me, so I agree it's not going to be that simple. Danny could just as easily have a kid with someone different, or it could be something different altogether, something more timey whimey, especially if he becomes a companion. But I like the possibilities it leaves open for the future.

And I personally think we were supposed to conclude the monsters could have been real. The reveal with Clara to me made it obvious it was never supposed to be something more, and for it to be monsters downplays the importance of that scene in the barn with Clara imo. They were careful to give everything a rational explanation, so that after you've been along for the same emotional ride that The Doctor and Clara went through, and they give you the twist, you can look back with a more rational and informed point of view and realize there was nothing to be afraid of, just like how that fear works in real life. It was quite clever. You knew in your head all along there was a reasonable explanation, but you went along with everything at the time. The episode played the audience perfectly.

Also, how the hell can they time travel to Gallifrey? That planet is gone from space and time, right? Isn't the Doctor's new life goal to find it? That would seem unnecessary if he could just time travel back to it with the Tardis.

The TARDIS was being controlled by Clara, I assume still without the safeguards in place, and it locked onto that place from The Doctor's history. I'm sure it was a dangerous thing to try, and it could have been so catastrophic for The Doctor (or anyone else like Clara) to do anything there due to paradoxes, that it's effectively impossible to attempt. That's why Clara had to immediately get The Doctor to leave.
It seems that Clara had always been part of those events somehow, which I think she realized once she accidentally grabbed the young Doctor's foot, which somehow avoids any further paradoxes for her, because it was self fulfilling. There have been little loopholes to connect to Gallifrey before, such as The End of Time, so it's not unprecedented.

Aside from Robot of Sherwood, this has been a great season so far. It's well on track to possibly be the best season of the modern series, and I think a lot of these episodes will only get better once we see how they fit into the grand scheme of the story arc.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 07:58:41 PM by BlobVanDam »
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #168 on: September 14, 2014, 07:26:48 PM »
Really enjoyed this episode! Like others have said, I'm still a bit confused about that whole scene in the children's home if there really was no monster-type-thing (also, the chalk? was that the Doctor's fear actually having the power to write?).
It also seemed to me like they were implying that Clara and Danny get together, since I thought he said Orson was part of Clara's timeline (could be wrong there), plus the toy is a "family" heirloom so there must be some kind of familial connection for him to give it to her.
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #169 on: September 14, 2014, 07:49:13 PM »
Really enjoyed this episode! Like others have said, I'm still a bit confused about that whole scene in the children's home if there really was no monster-type-thing (also, the chalk? was that the Doctor's fear actually having the power to write?).
It also seemed to me like they were implying that Clara and Danny get together, since I thought he said Orson was part of Clara's timeline (could be wrong there), plus the toy is a "family" heirloom so there must be some kind of familial connection for him to give it to her.

For the writing on the chalkboard, Clara said it looked like his handwriting, so the alternative is that he had a lapse and didn't realize / forgot that he wrote it himself. Coming from Capaldi's Doctor, it wouldn't surprise me either. :lol

My suspicion is that Orson handed her the toy because he heard the stories passed down about Clara and The Doctor from Danny, including the bit in this episode when Danny was young, and any future episodes where Danny might be a companion. I think there will be a future episode where it clicks for him and realizes that Clara visited him as a kid, and she'll have to introduce The Doctor and bring him into the fold. That's my guess.

Orson said he didn't recognize Clara from family photos, but he made reference to time travel running in the family, so it might all refer only to Danny Pink.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #170 on: September 14, 2014, 08:55:11 PM »
Holy cow. The new version of DW story-telling is amazing.

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #171 on: September 14, 2014, 09:28:27 PM »
Really enjoyed this episode! Like others have said, I'm still a bit confused about that whole scene in the children's home if there really was no monster-type-thing (also, the chalk? was that the Doctor's fear actually having the power to write?).
It also seemed to me like they were implying that Clara and Danny get together, since I thought he said Orson was part of Clara's timeline (could be wrong there), plus the toy is a "family" heirloom so there must be some kind of familial connection for him to give it to her.

"Listen" is a masterpiece. Definitely a strong contender for one of, if not my favorite Doctor Who episodes ever. It just gets better and better with each viewing I have of it. It's an incredibly nuanced and subtle episode. This is what brings me to the thing that's confusing everyone: "Was there a monster or not?"

The beauty of "Listen" is that it doesn't matter whether or not there was really a monster. It's deliberately ambiguous, because the point of "Listen" isn't the monster. It's about fear itself. It's an emotion that we all feel, even the Doctor, and it is explored via the oldest nightmare out there: something hiding underneath the bed.

However, as "Listen" demonstrates, fear isn't entirely a negative emotion. Clara and Danny bond over their shared fears and insecurities over their newfound relationship together. The Doctor describes fear as being a super power of sorts and Clara even quotes Hartnell near the end by calling fear a constant companion. "Listen" analyzes the emotion of fear and tells us that it is perfectly alright to be afraid.

Furthermore, "Listen" is a character study on the Doctor himself. Peter Capaldi turns in one hell of a performance as the Doctor in this episode, presenting us with a Doctor unhinged and obsessed on a Sherlockian level over this old theory of his, being completely willing to risk his own life just for the chance to see if he can find any answers. The Doctor wants to justify his fear by proving the existence of a supposed creature, which might be real. We don't know. We don't have to know. In the end, Clara's realization as to the actual origins of the Doctor's theory could be a red herring, but it offers her, the Doctor and Orson an out from the Doctor's potentially lethal obsession and helps him remember that it's fine to be afraid.
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Offline Jaq

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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #172 on: September 14, 2014, 09:33:32 PM »
Also, how the hell can they time travel to Gallifrey? That planet is gone from space and time, right? Isn't the Doctor's new life goal to find it? That would seem unnecessary if he could just time travel back to it with the Tardis.

The Gallifrey of the Time War-the one that was time locked and all that hubbub-is gone from space and time.

Gallifrey of the PAST isn't. It's clearly still tricky and dangerous to go there, but it's still there.
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #173 on: September 14, 2014, 09:39:54 PM »
Also, how the hell can they time travel to Gallifrey? That planet is gone from space and time, right? Isn't the Doctor's new life goal to find it? That would seem unnecessary if he could just time travel back to it with the Tardis.

The Gallifrey of the Time War-the one that was time locked and all that hubbub-is gone from space and time.

Gallifrey of the PAST isn't. It's clearly still tricky and dangerous to go there, but it's still there.


Exactly. It's even foreshadowed earlier on in the episode when the Doctor tells Clara that the TARDIS isn't supposed to go all the way to the end of the universe,  but someone turned off the safeties. That was what presumably allowed them to go to the past Gallifrey.
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Re: Doctor Who v. Patrick Troughton
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2014, 09:46:58 PM »
Furthermore, "Listen" is a character study on the Doctor himself. Peter Capaldi turns in one hell of a performance as the Doctor in this episode, presenting us with a Doctor unhinged and obsessed on a Sherlockian level over this old theory of his, being completely willing to risk his own life just for the chance to see if he can find any answers. The Doctor wants to justify his fear by proving the existence of a supposed creature, which might be real. We don't know. We don't have to know. In the end, Clara's realization as to the actual origins of the Doctor's theory could be a red herring, but it offers her, the Doctor and Orson an out from the Doctor's potentially lethal obsession and helps him remember that it's fine to be afraid.

I think a part of The Doctor's personality is that he's always risked his life if only to find answers, and also to help others. In showing The Doctor as a kid, we see Clara effectively helping plant that seed that made him The Doctor, helping him overcome his fear. And this episode was all about defining that core trait, as he feels the need to find answers, and also helps Rupert, even though to me The Doctor looked thoroughly terrified inside as he was telling Rupert not to look. He looked like he was almost in tears. It was subtle, but great. I also think that's why The Doctor didn't just pull the covers off whoever it was, because he was too scared to confirm his subconscious childhood fear. To me that was atypical for him, in a way that worked so perfectly for the episode.

I still don't believe it was supposed to be ambiguous that it could have been a monster. I think it was supposed to be ambiguous throughout the episode, then I feel it was resolved at the end that it was nothing, but that the fear we feel in these moments is a good thing, and we should use it to our advantage to overcome it. I do agree that the episode was making a message that it doesn't matter whether there's really a monster, but I don't think we were supposed to have any doubt by the end, only during the ride. And being such a core part of The Doctor's character that she planted, I don't think she wanted to reveal her part.

Either way, it says a lot about the depth of the episode that we can analyze it at this level, and also come to different conclusions.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.