Which musical directions should DT consider, or what do you wish they will take?

[TheGreatPretender]

It really wouldn't matter to me, as long as it wasn't singing.

Don't get me wrong, I love James, but it'd be cool to see the band just go all out without having to pay regard to vocals.

Yeah, but he's an equal part of the band. To have him abstain from an album is kind of a ridiculous notion. I mean, that's like saying, "They should do an all out Heavy Metal album without any use of Keyboards or any kind of electonic sounds. JR should just stay out of it."

[Skeever]

It really wouldn't matter to me, as long as it wasn't singing.

Don't get me wrong, I love James, but it'd be cool to see the band just go all out without having to pay regard to vocals.

Yeah, but he's an equal part of the band. To have him abstain from an album is kind of a ridiculous notion. I mean, that's like saying, "They should do an all out Heavy Metal album without any use of Keyboards or any kind of electonic sounds. JR should just stay out of it."

a keyboardless album would be interesting too, though tough to pull off. Again no offense to Jordan.

[TheGreatPretender]

a keyboardless album would be interesting too, though tough to pull off. Again no offense to Jordan.

I don't see why it would be that tough. I mean, it'd just be more Metal and less Prog. I think JP has interesting enough riffs. In any case, my point is that I highly doubt they'd agree to something like that.

[Skeever]

As if they're going to be going through this thread for ideas anyway lol

Here, a compromise. A long album with like 3-4 normal songs and 30+ minute instrumental

[TheGreatPretender]

Actually, I'd love to hear a DT album where certain members abstain. I mean, having acoustic songs is an example, where there's no drumming. Having a little straight forward Heavy Metal tune with no keyboards, of course an instrumental. They could even do one without guitar, have drum and bass, and the keyboard playing all the leads. It would be interesting, I think.

[Mosh]

That would be a natural progression from DT12 too. There are quite a bit of moments on DT12 where certain members abstain. I love how it's just bass, drums, and JP's solo in Looking Glass, for example. No lame guitar overdubs and no keyboards. All kinds of cool moments like that in the album, it'd be nice if they explored that further.

[Rodni Demental]

Considering the current directions, influences, and what the new bands are doing, regarding progressive metal music, should DT follow them, showing that they're still the reference point, or they should go ahead without thinking to that?

Personally, I would like to hear some "djentish" songs from DT, combined with their delicate and unique melodies. For me, it would be a very intriguing music mixture.
Also, I'd like to hear more fusion moment's, a la LTE.

Almost ANYTHING but that. 

Nothing against modern progressive metal bands or djent in general, but I feel that it's been killed. Every new metal band and their grandmothers are using djent tones now, I'm so sick it. It's a cool tone, and it was an interesting reference for The Enemy Inside, but I hope DT stay far away from whatever is becoming of the more modern metal scene because it starts to get pretty generic. And I know a lot of dject riffing can get somewhat technical but it can also get repetitive and annoying. Not that I expect JP to listen to me, and not to offend anyone, I'm just saying djent tones are fine in moderation, but please don't take the band in that direction. 

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I'd love to see some real nice experimentation. Something like SDOIT, as far as diversity.

[GasparXR]

That would be a natural progression from DT12 too. There are quite a bit of moments on DT12 where certain members abstain. I love how it's just bass, drums, and JP's solo in Looking Glass, for example. No lame guitar overdubs and no keyboards. All kinds of cool moments like that in the album, it'd be nice if they explored that further.

You mean Surrender to Reason, right? The wacky, fuzzy solo? In The Looking Glass there's keys behind the solo.

[Miss Bangkok]

I basically just want them to do something different... They haven't done anything fresh or groundbreaking since Octavarium, and even that album was flawed. The last truly unique album was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, although A Dramatic Turn of Events did harken back to some of the old-school DT elements that I love so much, but ultimately got my hopes up because their latest album is garbage as far as I'm concerned. They just fell right back into the same old uninspired "autopilot" mode they slipped into as soon as they joined Roadrunner Records...

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?) When Mike Mangini joined the band, I was excited, because I thought he could do for the band what Jordan did for them, which was open up for a whole new world of possibilities, stylistically. Mike Mangini is extremely well-rounded, and can play anything from extreme technical metal to Afro-Cuban Latin jazz, and convincingly. It seems like such a waste to write mainstream crap and not take advantage of his abilities, or his vast musical knowledge and his diverse drumming background. Honestly, I haven't heard any drum parts from him that Mike Portnoy couldn't have done... Part of having a new drummer is to have a fresh take on things, and I simply don't feel that Mangini has come up with anything that falls in that category.

I'm not against mainstream music; in fact, many of my favorite bands and artists are quite accessible and "commercial" sounding. For example, I love the Falling Into Infinity album, and most all of the radio-friendly tunes from Images and Words and Awake. I just think that they're just repeating themselves over and over, so the impact of the music they are churning out is diminished. Honestly though, I think the band's best days are behind them... I think they're on the downward slope of their career. I realize that their record/ticket sales probably say otherwise, but those numbers don't reflect how many fans bought the record and didn't like it. Financial success doesn't necessarily equate to artistic success... Besides, when you're young and ambitious, with the whole world ahead of you, you're more inspired and hungry----you're out to prove something. I think a large part of the problem is that they haven't let up with the vicious "write/record/tour" cycle... Who says you have to put out an album every two years? Maybe this is where Roadrunner Records comes in...

Furthermore, do they really need to be signed to a major label? They could always go the Steve Vai route, and write/record/tour on their own terms and at their own pace, on their own 'label', instead of having to fulfill contractual obligations. But yeah, getting back to the original topic, here are some things I think they could be doing more of...

-jazz fusion
-flamenco-ish stuff
-Latin influences
-more piano, more acoustic guitar
-maybe another double album, where one side is entirely band + orchestra
-electronic stuff mixed with heavy riffing
-more rock'n roll riffs, less metal
-more funky breakdowns
-more fusion-y playing from JP
-a whole song with only guitar + Vocals
-another concept album
-a whole album with only acoustic instruments
-more thought provoking lyrics, more metaphors
-a whole album that is chill, ambient and soundtrack-ish

[Zook]

I basically just want them to do something different... They haven't done anything fresh or groundbreaking since Octavarium, and even that album was flawed. The last truly unique album was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, although A Dramatic Turn of Events did harken back to some of the old-school DT elements that I love so much, but ultimately got my hopes up because their latest album is garbage as far as I'm concerned. They just fell right back into the same old uninspired "autopilot" mode they slipped into as soon as they joined Roadrunner Records...

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?) When Mike Mangini joined the band, I was excited, because I thought he could do for the band what Jordan did for them, which was open up for a whole new world of possibilities, stylistically. Mike Mangini is extremely well-rounded, and can play anything from extreme technical metal to Afro-Cuban Latin jazz, and convincingly. It seems like such a waste to write mainstream crap and not take advantage of his abilities, or his vast musical knowledge and his diverse drumming background. Honestly, I haven't heard any drum parts from him that Mike Portnoy couldn't have done... Part of having a new drummer is to have a fresh take on things, and I simply don't feel that Mangini has come up with anything that falls in that category.

I'm not against mainstream music; in fact, many of my favorite bands and artists are quite accessible and "commercial" sounding. For example, I love the Falling Into Infinity album, and most all of the radio-friendly tunes from Images and Words and Awake. I just think that they're just repeating themselves over and over, so the impact of the music they are churning out is diminished. Honestly though, I think the band's best days are behind them... I think they're on the downward slope of their career. I realize that their record/ticket sales probably say otherwise, but those numbers don't reflect how many fans bought the record and didn't like it. Financial success doesn't necessarily equate to artistic success... Besides, when you're young and ambitious, with the whole world ahead of you, you're more inspired and hungry----you're out to prove something. I think a large part of the problem is that they haven't let up with the vicious "write,record,tour" cycle... Who says you have to put out an album every two years? Maybe this is where Roadrunner Records comes in...

Furthermore, do they been really need to be signed to a major label? They could always go the Steve Vai route, and write/record/tour on their own terms and at their own pace, on their own 'label', instead of having to fulfill contractual obligations. But yeah, getting back to the original topic, here are some things I think they could be doing more of...

-jazz fusion
-flamenco-ish stuff
-Latin influences
-more piano, more acoustic guitar
-maybe another double album, where one side is entirely band + orchestra
-electronic stuff mixed with heavy riffing
-more rock'n roll riffs, less metal
-more funky breakdowns
-more fusion-y playing from JP
-a whole song with only guitar + Vocals
-another concept album
-a whole album with only acoustic instruments
-more thought provoking lyrics, more metaphors
-a whole album that is chill, ambient and soundtrack-ish

Not sure if you've heard of the band Suspyre, but their first album was mainly Power Prog. It was fun, catchy, energetic, melodic. Then after that they got more technical with the jazz fusion whatever, and they didn't have the catchy melodies anymore. They became boring. There's nothing wrong with a mainstream sound. I'll take simple and catchy over boring techobabble anyday. Plus, the things you listed are very cliched prog band things. Tropes I believe the term is.

[Mosh]

That would be a natural progression from DT12 too. There are quite a bit of moments on DT12 where certain members abstain. I love how it's just bass, drums, and JP's solo in Looking Glass, for example. No lame guitar overdubs and no keyboards. All kinds of cool moments like that in the album, it'd be nice if they explored that further.

You mean Surrender to Reason, right? The wacky, fuzzy solo? In The Looking Glass there's keys behind the solo.

Ah yes. Looking Glass is a good example of what I mean too though, the keys are there but they really take a back seat. The bass/drums/guitar trio is really the main event.

I think DT as a band are finally learning how to take a step back. This was especially an issue on the last 3 album, songs were longer than they needed to be at times and there were a lot of solo sections that seemed somewhat arbitrary. When I hear the guitar soloing with not only bass and drums underneath, but a bunch of a keybard parts AND overdubbed guitar parts going...that's just way too much. When you strip it down to no guitar overdubs (seriously wtf is the point of that anyway?) and either drums+keyboards or drums+bass or some other combo, not only can you hear more subtleties in everyone's playing as well as interactions between the players, but you also get a shift in dynamics. Take down the volume and adjust the mood a bit, before going into the next section with everyone playing in a grand fashion. The final chorus of Surrender To Reason gives me chills and part of that is because of the way the solo section builds into it. Much more effective than the other way of doing it. Less is more!

[425]

An instrumental album.

Riiight. And you'll have JLB do what? Play the cowbell?

It really wouldn't matter to me, as long as it wasn't singing.

Don't get me wrong, I love James, but it'd be cool to see the band just go all out without having to pay regard to vocals.

I think you're mistaken in implying that the band pays attention to vocals out of a sense of obligation. And I think "going all out" for them, in the sense of making the music they want to make without any sense of obligation, would still include James. At very minimum, it's known that John Petrucci loves writing lyrics (and presumably vocal melodies given MP's policy on lyrics submissions from 2000 until he left the band).

[KevShmev]

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?) 

This doesn't make any sense, since it implies that the band went out of their way to write something mainstream to garner a grammy nomination, when in reality, they did what they always do, which is whatever they want, and the grammy nomination just happened.

DT12 was mostly heavy throughout and Along For The Ride is possibly their worst ballad ever.

The Looking Glass
The Bigger Picture
Surrender to Reason
Along for the Ride
 
I would not describe any of those songs as heavy.  And that is four of the nine songs.  Even Illumination Theory, despite being heavy early on, is more not heavy than heavy.

See, what I've been saying throughout the history of this debate is that the four songs that you mentioned *should* not be heavy. They're not written as heavy songs. But the guitar tone and production of the album make them *sound* heavy. Which is rather unappealing to me.

Like, honestly, the way those songs sound on record, every single one of them is heavier than anything on ADTOE. Even Along for the Ride. The guitar on the second verse just comes in way harder than (to my personal ear for these things, which you can trust or not) it really should.

I don't agree with any of this.  Those songs don't sound heavy to me.  Hard rocking at times? Sure, but heavy?  No way.

[425]

I don't agree with any of this.  Those songs don't sound heavy to me.  Hard rocking at times? Sure, but heavy?  No way.

Yeah, I don't know how to convince anyone of it or anything, but they definitely sound heavy to me. They seem heavy in a way that is seemingly as a result of the production and tone  and not of the songwriting. I explained to the best of my ability what it is about those songs for me, but I don't know what else to say about it aside from "agree to disagree?"

[BlobVanDam]

See, what I've been saying throughout the history of this debate is that the four songs that you mentioned *should* not be heavy. They're not written as heavy songs. But the guitar tone and production of the album make them *sound* heavy. Which is rather unappealing to me.

Like, honestly, the way those songs sound on record, every single one of them is heavier than anything on ADTOE. Even Along for the Ride. The guitar on the second verse just comes in way harder than (to my personal ear for these things, which you can trust or not) it really should.

Even the stuff that's not heavy in terms of composition, is heavy and drenched in guitar in the arrangement, which makes it sound a bit samey and heavy overall to me. And there's also the fat metal drum sound used throughout. That also makes AFTR sound heavier than it ought to be. A lot of those middle songs blur together for me because of the arrangements and production.

[KevShmev]

I don't agree with any of this.  Those songs don't sound heavy to me.  Hard rocking at times? Sure, but heavy?  No way.

Yeah, I don't know how to convince anyone of it or anything, but they definitely sound heavy to me. They seem heavy in a way that is seemingly as a result of the production and tone  and not of the songwriting. I explained to the best of my ability what it is about those songs for me, but I don't know what else to say about it aside from "agree to disagree?"

Fair enough.

Even the stuff that's not heavy in terms of composition, is heavy and drenched in guitar in the arrangement, which makes it sound a bit samey and heavy overall to me. And there's also the fat metal drum sound used throughout. That also makes AFTR sound heavier than it ought to be. A lot of those middle songs blur together for me because of the arrangements and production.

That's not unusual for a metal band to use a "big" drum sound in a mellow-ish song.   Listen to Metallica's Nothing Else Matters.  Ulrich's big fat bass drum sound gives it that "metal band doing a mellow song" vibe. 

[emtee]

For those keeping score...the collective "wants" for DT13

-Djentish
-Fusion
-Latin jazz quick and sick
-More Atmospheric
-More hard rock
-Less metal riffing
-Use MM more
-More technicality
-Not lazy or generic
-Mixed grill
-Back to heavy progressive roots
-Change song writing approach
-Flamenco
-More poppy and jazzy
-Less metal more prog
-More experimental
-Instrumental only
-Rap
-Anything but djent


So can we imagine what this album of collective opinion would sound like? 

[Zydar]

Looks like a very diverse album

[kirksnosehair]

Put me firmly in the "anything but djent" camp.

[theseoafs]

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?)

Yeah, dude, I HATE that DT sold out so much with On the Backs of Angels and The Enemy Inside.  It's such a bummer that DT betrayed their original style by writing heavy prog metal rockers that are 8 and 6 minutes long respectively.  When I listen to the synth solo in TEI I can't help but think how well it would fit in with the likes of Katy Perry's new album, and everyone noticed as soon as OTBOA was released that they were obviously drawing from Ke$ha's signature sound in the extended intro.  I wish DT would stop trying to appeal to the masses and just do their own thing, because honestly it's just getting embarrassing. 

[?]

For those keeping score...the collective "wants" for DT13

-Djentish
-Fusion
-Latin jazz quick and sick
-More Atmospheric
-More hard rock
-Less metal riffing
-Use MM more
-More technicality
-Not lazy or generic
-Mixed grill
-Back to heavy progressive roots
-Change song writing approach
-Flamenco
-More poppy and jazzy
-Less metal more prog
-More experimental
-Instrumental only
-Rap
-Anything but djent


So can we imagine what this album of collective opinion would sound like? 

The album would be scizophrenic as hell!

Also, no djent please...

[a51502112]

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?)

Yeah, dude, I HATE that DT sold out so much with On the Backs of Angels and The Enemy Inside.  It's such a bummer that DT betrayed their original style by writing heavy prog metal rockers that are 8 and 6 minutes long respectively.  When I listen to the synth solo in TEI I can't help but think how well it would fit in with the likes of Katy Perry's new album, and everyone noticed as soon as OTBOA was released that they were obviously drawing from Ke$ha's signature sound in the extended intro.  I wish DT would stop trying to appeal to the masses and just do their own thing, because honestly it's just getting embarrassing.

"Prog Metal" There's plenty of Metal, but no Prog in those songs.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 They should do a tour to celebrate A Change Of SEASONS anniversary. Supporting acts:

 Johnny WINTER
 OffSPRING
 Andy SUMMERs
 HammerFALL

[JediKnight1969]

They should do a tour to celebrate A Change Of SEASONS anniversary. Supporting acts:

 Johnny WINTER
 OffSPRING
 Andy SUMMERs
 HammerFALL

Sad joke, pal... RIP Johnny Winter.

You could have used his brother Edgar. (And "Autumn Leaves" for closing the 4 seasons).

[Evermind]

Mostly Autumn would work too.

[King Postwhore]

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?)

Yeah, dude, I HATE that DT sold out so much with On the Backs of Angels and The Enemy Inside.  It's such a bummer that DT betrayed their original style by writing heavy prog metal rockers that are 8 and 6 minutes long respectively.  When I listen to the synth solo in TEI I can't help but think how well it would fit in with the likes of Katy Perry's new album, and everyone noticed as soon as OTBOA was released that they were obviously drawing from Ke$ha's signature sound in the extended intro.  I wish DT would stop trying to appeal to the masses and just do their own thing, because honestly it's just getting embarrassing.

 

[kirksnosehair]

he forgot about sarcasm green, I think? 

[Mosh]

Do you really need green text to tell it's sarcasm?

[hefdaddy42]

Maybe some bluegrass.  An upright bass for JM, some chicken-pickin' from JP, an upright piano for JR, some brushes on the snare for MM.

[Miss Bangkok]

Not sure if you've heard of the band Suspyre, but their first album was mainly Power Prog. It was fun, catchy, energetic, melodic. Then after that they got more technical with the jazz fusion whatever, and they didn't have the catchy melodies anymore. They became boring. There's nothing wrong with a mainstream sound. I'll take simple and catchy over boring techobabble anyday. Plus, the things you listed are very cliched prog band things. Tropes I believe the term is.

I see where you're coming from, however we will have to agree to disagree. I understand the point you're making, but I don't share that sentiment. As a fan of Steve Vai, Pat Metheny, King Crimson, etc; I enjoy musician's music I guess. I do enjoy quite a few mainstream acts, however that's not what I want to hear from DT, especially after being exposed to their previous albums, which are simply amazing. When you know what these guys are capable of, it's kinda hard to accept them settling into a "mainstream sound", at least for me. Besides, they've never been a radio band overall.

The thing that's so damn frustrating is that I can think of SO MANY other amazing things they could be doing, but instead they're trying to appeal to the masses... (Grammy nomination, anyone?)

Yeah, dude, I HATE that DT sold out so much with On the Backs of Angels and The Enemy Inside.  It's such a bummer that DT betrayed their original style by writing heavy prog metal rockers that are 8 and 6 minutes long respectively.  When I listen to the synth solo in TEI I can't help but think how well it would fit in with the likes of Katy Perry's new album, and everyone noticed as soon as OTBOA was released that they were obviously drawing from Ke$ha's signature sound in the extended intro.  I wish DT would stop trying to appeal to the masses and just do their own thing, because honestly it's just getting embarrassing. 

First off, I like A Dramatic Turn of Events quite a bit. My comment in regards to the Grammy nomination was implying that their nomination for On The Backs of Angels could have possibly prompted them to write a more accessible album, resulting in DT12. I get that you're mocking my opinion or whatever, but you really didn't think it through all that well---there's obviously no way a Grammy nomination would've influenced their writing for A Dramatic Turn of Events, as they hadn't been nominated yet. I don't really care if anyone on this board shares or agrees with my opinion or not; I'm just contributing my 2 cents, since this is after all, a discussion board. And btw, I'm a gal. Not dude

[Grizz]

Whatever the hell they haven't been doing since Portnoy left.

[Obfuscation]

Lets add a dash of folk music to DT13 while we're at it guys. Thank you very much.

[Lucien]

I think they just need to stop thinking inside their box. I think they should completely clear their musical palette, listen to music they've never heard before, clear their minds, exchange each other's instruments a la Nightmare Cinema, write an album of demo tracks using different instruments than normal, then switch back to their normal instruments and mess with what the other members gave them.

I don't know. What haven't they done already?

Also, get a better sound engineer. Steven Wilson maybe?  I know we discuss this a ton, but Steven Wilson and Jordan Rudess are on good terms at least...

[?]

Another idea that crossed my mind today: more spoken word samples! Of course DT isn't Chroma Key, but at least one or two songs with samples would be cool, because DT haven't used them in a while.