Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 55022 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cable

  • Posts: 1511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1505 on: September 21, 2017, 11:07:59 AM »
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/21/552527929/oklahoma-city-police-fatally-shoot-deaf-man-despite-yells-of-he-cant-hear-you
I'm going to begin by saying I don't think his deafness matters much here. He was approaching Johnny with a weapon so whether or not he could hear "get on the ground" isn't so much a consideration.

Moreover, I also find silly the arguments "why couldn't they just taze him," or "why couldn't they have shot him in the knee." If you have to use force you use it to stop in the most certain, expedient manner possible. Nor do I buy into "he only had a knife, not a gun." People can close 15' and stab somebody a lot quicker than people assume. Guys with knives occasionally need to be shot.

Now that's out of the way, this doesn't sit so well with me. A pipe isn't a knife. Aside from the now deceased Bruce Lee, a forceful impact requires a fair amount of distance. If he winds up then you shoot him. But my bigger problem is that he was well covered. If one cop has a gun and one cop has a tazer and they both have him covered, start with the tazer. You've got plenty of time and distance to defend yourself if the tazer proves ineffective. This honestly sounds like another panicky cop to me. When the use of force is required you generally see everybody on the seen start shooting after the first bang. When one cop fires all the rounds and another doesn't that's telling to me.

This cops stands a better chance of winning two consecutive powerballs than he does being convicted, so that's not an issue, but panicky cops shouldn't be employed in my world. And here's an interesting angle. When the use of force is deemed justified, as it certainly will be, shouldn't that mean that the other cop didn't act properly by not firing? Didn't one of them necessarily bungle his job?


I'm employed in a criminal justice entity. In the Use of Force I go through, it is not taught to use the trump card (lethal force) unless necessary, and you perceive death as a possible threat. So my question in these excessive uses, where there wasn't a confirmed firearm brandished by the victim, or a significant threat (which can be subjective) will always be; "you didn't try the pepper spray or taser first?"

And correct El Barto with the panicky officers, and how they should not be employed. My private life encounters with officers have all been great and smooth. That being said, when I worked with teens- the oppositional defiant ones career goal was to often be in the police force, and/or military (a coworker encountered the same). They could totally be fine, but just food for thought. And yes yes, always will be a bad apple.
---

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1506 on: December 01, 2017, 12:01:41 PM »
I've posted the video here plenty of times, but it's also embedded in the article.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dallas-cop-gets-probation-for-shooting-mentally-ill-man-in-2013-10110445

As depressing as it is, seeing a cop get a little bit of probation for shooting a guy he shouldn't have is actually a step forward. Frankly, he deserved jail time just for phonying up his police report, let alone shooting somebody, but that was never going to happen. Police have essentially been immune up until now. Some punishment, even trivial punishment, is better than exoneration.

This comes in contrast to the Freddie Gray case, which has officially ended now. They couldn't even convict the cop whose job it was to insure that he was strapped in for failing to strap him in, FFS. Ironically, the prosecutor who filed charges against him will face far more punishment than the cops who, for whatever reason, let him die. 

Quote
Inflammable means flammable??? What a country!
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline chknptpie

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2968
  • Gender: Female

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5222
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1508 on: December 02, 2017, 11:01:45 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1509 on: December 02, 2017, 11:31:29 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
Dude was face down on the ground, crawling towards the cops as ordered, and begging for his life when Johnny fired 5 rounds into his back. Yeah, sounds like police training to me. The other five cops who didn't fire should all be disciplined for failing to act.

In the end it probably doesn't matter. His entire defense could be "eh, fuck'em. And fuck this court too!" and he'd still walk. It's not that cops are above the law. It's that the law allows them to shoot whoever they wish.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5222
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1510 on: December 02, 2017, 12:02:42 PM »
I am not versed in police activity as you are, but i read it as "My training instructs me to shoot to kill whenever I see even the slightest chance a perp is reaching for something I cannot see and identify. Either there is fault in the training, or fault in his interpretation of applying that training in the field. Reading more closely, I concede that siding with the latter is more likely. Training isn't going to cover every possible scenario though, and some interpretation needs to be allowed for by officers when they have to react in split-second timing. so... I don't know how I come down on all this. I am glad we have cops, I am glad my interactions with them have been peaceful and respectful, I am not glad "I thought he was going to pull a gun" is an automatically accepted defense.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 577
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1511 on: December 03, 2017, 02:49:46 PM »
This is pretty minor in the scheme of things but anyway, this doesn't sit well with me at all:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/cop-taunts-would-be-killer-with-lube-on-way-to-prison-are-going-to-need-lot-this.html

If your job is to represent and uphold the law you probably shouldn't be taunting a convicted man with the inevitability of prison rape.

Obviously this is not 'police brutality', so maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, but it is an example of piss-poor judgement, and frankly a vindictive personality type that probably shouldn't be in a uniform.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 26244
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1512 on: December 03, 2017, 02:57:32 PM »
This is pretty minor in the scheme of things but anyway, this doesn't sit well with me at all:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/cop-taunts-would-be-killer-with-lube-on-way-to-prison-are-going-to-need-lot-this.html

If your job is to represent and uphold the law you probably shouldn't be taunting a convicted man with the inevitability of prison rape.

Obviously this is not 'police brutality', so maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, but it is an example of piss-poor judgement, and frankly a vindictive personality type that probably shouldn't be in a uniform.

While it is hard to be all sweetness and lights towards a thug who shot and tried to kill you, that kind of childish stunt is certainly uncalled for.

Offline chknptpie

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2968
  • Gender: Female
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1513 on: December 04, 2017, 06:31:12 AM »
I've seen a few posts on facebook with a video stating that a cop killed a man's dog and then forced him to cut it's head off. I can't stomach watching a video of that and I also haven't seen it from a reputable news source... but if it's real that's horrifying.

Offline vtgrad

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1514 on: December 04, 2017, 09:41:35 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
Dude was face down on the ground, crawling towards the cops as ordered, and begging for his life when Johnny fired 5 rounds into his back. Yeah, sounds like police training to me. The other five cops who didn't fire should all be disciplined for failing to act.

In the end it probably doesn't matter. His entire defense could be "eh, fuck'em. And fuck this court too!" and he'd still walk. It's not that cops are above the law. It's that the law allows them to shoot whoever they wish.

What happened to making sure there's actually a weapon before opening fire on a man face down on the ground crying and begging not to be shot?  What happened to simply stating "Keep your hands raised" with a little bass in your voice instead of "you will be shot if you drop your hands again"?  Why is the guy pumping five rounds into a man's back while he's on the ground even if he does have a gun?

In the amount of time that it would take for a man on the ground on his stomach to level a firearm at one of those officers from the waistband of his pants, I'd wager that every single one of those officers would have time to identify that there actually is a weapon and act accordingly to ensure their own safety (that's what it comes down to, their own safety... not that of anyone else's in this particular case unless there were bystanders in that hallway).  Excessive use of force indeed!

Sounds like they're watching Justified in the police academy and learning Raylan's approach to law enforcement... shoot first, drop a one-liner, ask questions later.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:48:19 AM by vtgrad »
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10222
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1515 on: December 04, 2017, 10:44:28 AM »
This is pretty minor in the scheme of things but anyway, this doesn't sit well with me at all:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/cop-taunts-would-be-killer-with-lube-on-way-to-prison-are-going-to-need-lot-this.html

If your job is to represent and uphold the law you probably shouldn't be taunting a convicted man with the inevitability of prison rape.

Obviously this is not 'police brutality', so maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, but it is an example of piss-poor judgement, and frankly a vindictive personality type that probably shouldn't be in a uniform.

While it is hard to be all sweetness and lights towards a thug who shot and tried to kill you, that kind of childish stunt is certainly uncalled for.

I'm with you on that.   I'm not asking for "sweetness and light" - but why not just do nothing?   I'm baffled at the degree to which our society has evolved from keeping one's counsel, to this almost incessant need to act, to do, to show, to say, to testify.   What would it have taken for that cop to just stand there and stare?   No, he had to make that statement.  WTF? 

I know, I know, "Stadler and his fucking Twitter", but it's my beef there too.  Why bother?   Why make that effort?   You're better off on almost every level to just do nothing, but that's somehow become a dirty notion in our society.    The Weinstein thread; if your think is pulling one off, why make the effort to involve someone else?  Gawk at her as she walks by, and go into the men's room if you're so damn insatiable that you can't wait till you get home to your girlfriend. 

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 651
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1516 on: December 04, 2017, 03:47:25 PM »
This is pretty minor in the scheme of things but anyway, this doesn't sit well with me at all:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/cop-taunts-would-be-killer-with-lube-on-way-to-prison-are-going-to-need-lot-this.html

If your job is to represent and uphold the law you probably shouldn't be taunting a convicted man with the inevitability of prison rape.

Obviously this is not 'police brutality', so maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, but it is an example of piss-poor judgement, and frankly a vindictive personality type that probably shouldn't be in a uniform.

While it is hard to be all sweetness and lights towards a thug who shot and tried to kill you, that kind of childish stunt is certainly uncalled for.

I'm with you on that.   I'm not asking for "sweetness and light" - but why not just do nothing?   I'm baffled at the degree to which our society has evolved from keeping one's counsel, to this almost incessant need to act, to do, to show, to say, to testify.   What would it have taken for that cop to just stand there and stare?   No, he had to make that statement.  WTF? 

I know, I know, "Stadler and his fucking Twitter", but it's my beef there too.  Why bother?   Why make that effort?   You're better off on almost every level to just do nothing, but that's somehow become a dirty notion in our society.    The Weinstein thread; if your think is pulling one off, why make the effort to involve someone else?  Gawk at her as she walks by, and go into the men's room if you're so damn insatiable that you can't wait till you get home to your girlfriend.

That's where I'm at with it. It's not so much the act itself, but the decision he made that I find the most baffling and egregious. This is a POLICE OFFICER, testifying in COURT in an ATTEMPTED MURDER OF A POLICE OFFICER case, sitting some ten feet from a JUDGE, and he came to the conclusion that it was a good idea to go forward with this stellar idea. If hat doesn't say enough about his decision making ability, I don't know what does.

And shout out to Jax. This guy is MY police officer  :rollin. That's so Florida...

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 577
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1517 on: December 04, 2017, 04:28:06 PM »
What disgusted me the most was the fact that the kind of personality type that would do something like that should be absolutely nowhere near the job of law enforcement in a 1st world country. A person's being sent to jail is the punishment. It doesn't need to be compounded with gang rape. For a police officer in a civilised country to think it's funny to taunt someone with an added threat of violent and sexual assault while in the 'care' of the state is horrific. At the very least it's not a laughing matter, as some of the comments on that article seemed to think it was.

Away from this case for a moment, I was talking about this theme with an American friend of mine recently (if it matters he's mid 30s and lives in Massachusetts) and he wrote to me what he thinks are the 5 main problems of the US police:

1) how easy it is to become a cop in certain areas of the US, with a lack of proper background checks, psychological screening and stupidly short academy training programs which mean a lot of people who never should have been police officers can become one in 6 months or so.

2) widespread gun violence, which makes cops twitchy and nervous and ending up shooting people reaching for their pockets or glove compartments.

3) training which focuses less on de-escalating a potentially dangerous situation than it does going for the extreme solution right away.

4) the prison industrial complex, where prisoners are a commodity to be bought and sold and therefore something which requires a steady supply. He even mentioned (but I haven't been able to personally verify this, though I've tried) some police precincts having certain quotas to fill both in terms of fines and arrests.

5) US prisons are based more on punishment than rehabilitation.

Now those are his views, not mine, so if he's off base then so be it. But with it in mind, what that idiot in the courthouse did certainly seems to be in line with points 1 and 5, and it's frightening to think of someone with such poor judgement and vengeful character in situations 2 and 3. I hope for his community's sake that he's been stripped of his badge and gun.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 04:40:32 PM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1518 on: December 04, 2017, 04:52:48 PM »
I can't really argue with his assessment, but I think it's simpler than that. You've got a fraternity where people develop an "us vs. them" mentality. This combined with their primary goal, survival, makes for some nervous Nellies. Then you factor in that there really are no consequences for going overboard when you feel threatened. The end result isn't at all surprising. You get cops who'd rather shoot somebody 8 times than wait to see if he actually poses a threat, safe in the knowledge that they'll be exonerated either way.

If they wanted to fix the problem it'd be pretty simple. Stress that Johnny's obligation is to the citizenry first. Make it a felony to falsify a report and prosecute it aggressively. Hold officers to the same standard as anybody else when deadly force is used. "Well, I thought maybe he might have had a gun or something" doesn't hold water for anybody else. Shouldn't for them. Unfortunately, why should they want to fix the problem. They've got it great right now and the pendulum's still swinging pretty hard in their favor.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 16428
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1519 on: December 05, 2017, 08:03:28 AM »
If they wanted to fix the problem it'd be pretty simple. Stress that Johnny's obligation is to the citizenry first. Make it a felony to falsify a report and prosecute it aggressively. Hold officers to the same standard as anybody else when deadly force is used. "Well, I thought maybe he might have had a gun or something" doesn't hold water for anybody else. Shouldn't for them. Unfortunately, why should they want to fix the problem. They've got it great right now and the pendulum's still swinging pretty hard in their favor.

Seems like you need a 3rd party to do an enforcement of law enforcement to get police treated on the same level as citizens.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1520 on: December 05, 2017, 08:09:38 AM »
If they wanted to fix the problem it'd be pretty simple. Stress that Johnny's obligation is to the citizenry first. Make it a felony to falsify a report and prosecute it aggressively. Hold officers to the same standard as anybody else when deadly force is used. "Well, I thought maybe he might have had a gun or something" doesn't hold water for anybody else. Shouldn't for them. Unfortunately, why should they want to fix the problem. They've got it great right now and the pendulum's still swinging pretty hard in their favor.

Seems like you need a 3rd party to do an enforcement of law enforcement to get police treated on the same level as citizens.
Nah. Just have the police and the citizenry bound by the same law. All states have something along the lines of negligent homicide. Johnny is just immune to it because he's held to a lower standard.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 16428
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1521 on: December 05, 2017, 08:12:28 AM »
Well they're also judged by their coworkers, there's always going to be a bias in that situation. 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10222
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1522 on: December 05, 2017, 09:42:37 AM »
I can't really argue with his assessment, but I think it's simpler than that. You've got a fraternity where people develop an "us vs. them" mentality. This combined with their primary goal, survival, makes for some nervous Nellies. Then you factor in that there really are no consequences for going overboard when you feel threatened. The end result isn't at all surprising. You get cops who'd rather shoot somebody 8 times than wait to see if he actually poses a threat, safe in the knowledge that they'll be exonerated either way.

If they wanted to fix the problem it'd be pretty simple. Stress that Johnny's obligation is to the citizenry first. Make it a felony to falsify a report and prosecute it aggressively. Hold officers to the same standard as anybody else when deadly force is used. "Well, I thought maybe he might have had a gun or something" doesn't hold water for anybody else. Shouldn't for them. Unfortunately, why should they want to fix the problem. They've got it great right now and the pendulum's still swinging pretty hard in their favor.


Don't blame the cops on that, though.  They're just a subset of society.  EVERYTHING is "us versus them".  You're either pro-Trump or RESIST!, and of course that means you're either a racist or a socialist.   You're either Sons of Apollo's biggest fan or you get banned from the Facebook page.   You either wear Cam Newton's jersey, or you're a "hater!".


« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 07:53:14 AM by Stadler »

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5222
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1523 on: December 07, 2017, 02:35:29 PM »
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1524 on: December 07, 2017, 03:17:37 PM »
At least it's not "married ex-cop."

For the life of me I don't know why he plead out. A jury, assuming they could convict him at all, wouldn't have given him 20 years. And realistically there's an excellent chance he walked free, despite the damning nature of the video.

And for that matter, I don't understand why anybody cops a plea without knowing the outcome. Doesn't seem to ever help matters.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5222
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1525 on: December 07, 2017, 03:40:11 PM »
"Soon-to-be homosexual ex-cop....?"  :biggrin:

Haven't plead guilty to a couple misdemeanors in my life, you aren't going to ever "know" the outcome. I know you know this, but thought it worth mentioning. Of course you should and likely will have a very good idea of what it is most likely going to be to help guide your decision.

Wikipedia tells me "Slager faced up to life in prison if convicted" of the federal charge. Do you take a guaranteed ~20 years, or a gamble of life? I don't know.

"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1526 on: December 07, 2017, 03:59:18 PM »
You should have a very good idea of the outcome knowing the charge you're pleading to and the recommendation of The Man.

And I'm 47. Twenty years might as well be a life sentence, so I absolutely role the dice. Easy call. For him, he wouldn't get the full life term, and again, his odds of being found not guilty are very high. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1527 on: December 08, 2017, 08:19:09 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
Dude was face down on the ground, crawling towards the cops as ordered, and begging for his life when Johnny fired 5 rounds into his back. Yeah, sounds like police training to me. The other five cops who didn't fire should all be disciplined for failing to act.

In the end it probably doesn't matter. His entire defense could be "eh, fuck'em. And fuck this court too!" and he'd still walk. It's not that cops are above the law. It's that the law allows them to shoot whoever they wish.
Naturally this cop was acquitted this morning. How tragic that this cop had to spend 2 years of his life defending himself for a murder the law clearly allows him to commit.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/cleared-murder-fatally-shooting-unarmed-man-article-1.3685074
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 651
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1528 on: December 09, 2017, 07:13:32 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
Dude was face down on the ground, crawling towards the cops as ordered, and begging for his life when Johnny fired 5 rounds into his back. Yeah, sounds like police training to me. The other five cops who didn't fire should all be disciplined for failing to act.

In the end it probably doesn't matter. His entire defense could be "eh, fuck'em. And fuck this court too!" and he'd still walk. It's not that cops are above the law. It's that the law allows them to shoot whoever they wish.
Naturally this cop was acquitted this morning. How tragic that this cop had to spend 2 years of his life defending himself for a murder the law clearly allows him to commit.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/cleared-murder-fatally-shooting-unarmed-man-article-1.3685074

So obviously this video was on all the news programs yesterday. I totally agree EB, the system is currently setup to allow these things, and that's unfortunate. It kinda reminds me of a friend talking about getting sexually assaulted in college, waking up to a guy groping her. She says, "I should be able to go to a party in college and get shit faced wasted and not have to worry about some guy assaulting me." Well, YEAH, of course I can agree with that... IN A PERFECT WORLD. It is not, and knowing what potential dangers face you in any given situation is an important part of "survival of the fittest". That being said, 1000 times out of 1000 this guy will get shot for that move he made. Is that okay? NO. Is that reality? YES.

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 398
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1529 on: December 09, 2017, 08:05:32 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
Dude was face down on the ground, crawling towards the cops as ordered, and begging for his life when Johnny fired 5 rounds into his back. Yeah, sounds like police training to me. The other five cops who didn't fire should all be disciplined for failing to act.

In the end it probably doesn't matter. His entire defense could be "eh, fuck'em. And fuck this court too!" and he'd still walk. It's not that cops are above the law. It's that the law allows them to shoot whoever they wish.
Naturally this cop was acquitted this morning. How tragic that this cop had to spend 2 years of his life defending himself for a murder the law clearly allows him to commit.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/cleared-murder-fatally-shooting-unarmed-man-article-1.3685074

So obviously this video was on all the news programs yesterday. I totally agree EB, the system is currently setup to allow these things, and that's unfortunate. It kinda reminds me of a friend talking about getting sexually assaulted in college, waking up to a guy groping her. She says, "I should be able to go to a party in college and get shit faced wasted and not have to worry about some guy assaulting me." Well, YEAH, of course I can agree with that... IN A PERFECT WORLD. It is not, and knowing what potential dangers face you in any given situation is an important part of "survival of the fittest". That being said, 1000 times out of 1000 this guy will get shot for that move he made. Is that okay? NO. Is that reality? YES.

But even though itís reality as you say, the fault should still lie with the person doing the assaulting or shooting. 

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1530 on: December 09, 2017, 09:25:56 AM »
Quote
the police department fired him for violating department policies including having the words "You're f--ked"  inscribed on the on the dust cover of his AR-15 patrol rifle

Bot that department has tough protocol. You can't write on own AR-15?

Seriously though, if his defense is predicated on "I did what I was trained to do" which I tend to believe, though I've never been through any police training, I would find it hard to convict him. If I am trained to do something, and then I perform accordingly, and then I am charged with a crime as a result, that would piss me off heartily.
Dude was face down on the ground, crawling towards the cops as ordered, and begging for his life when Johnny fired 5 rounds into his back. Yeah, sounds like police training to me. The other five cops who didn't fire should all be disciplined for failing to act.

In the end it probably doesn't matter. His entire defense could be "eh, fuck'em. And fuck this court too!" and he'd still walk. It's not that cops are above the law. It's that the law allows them to shoot whoever they wish.
Naturally this cop was acquitted this morning. How tragic that this cop had to spend 2 years of his life defending himself for a murder the law clearly allows him to commit.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/cleared-murder-fatally-shooting-unarmed-man-article-1.3685074

So obviously this video was on all the news programs yesterday. I totally agree EB, the system is currently setup to allow these things, and that's unfortunate. It kinda reminds me of a friend talking about getting sexually assaulted in college, waking up to a guy groping her. She says, "I should be able to go to a party in college and get shit faced wasted and not have to worry about some guy assaulting me." Well, YEAH, of course I can agree with that... IN A PERFECT WORLD. It is not, and knowing what potential dangers face you in any given situation is an important part of "survival of the fittest". That being said, 1000 times out of 1000 this guy will get shot for that move he made. Is that okay? NO. Is that reality? YES.
There were six cops with weapons trained on him. Only one decided to fire. There goes 1000/1000. Moreover, he'd made that exact same move a couple of times before and didn't get shot. Now we're down to one out of eighteen. Also, since he'd done it before, Johnny should have known he was pulling his shorts up. In fact, I'm not sure how it could have been reasonable to think he had a gun in his wasteband when his shorts were loose enough to keep falling down. You ever try to carry a gun in your wasteband? Guns are heavier than you think. None of this actually matters, though, since his hand was visibly empty at the point Johnny fired. The video is pretty damning in that regard, actually.

And here's why I can't see acquitting this guy, even though the law protects him in situations like this. How can a juror say that he acted reasonably from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene when there were five other cops there that didn't fire? Are we to presume that the other five officers didn't act reasonably to get at the conclusion Officer shooty did? In this case the jurors actually had the test for reasonableness demonstrated right there in front of them and chose to acquit anyway. I can't understand that.

This case really pisses me off. It might be the best example we have to date that if a cop wants to shoot you there's nothing stopping him from doing so and nobody's going to punish him if he does. Whether he acts through malice or incompetence makes no difference. He's clear.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5222
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1531 on: December 09, 2017, 09:45:04 AM »
This case really pisses me off. It might be the best example we have to date that if a cop wants to shoot you there's nothing stopping him from doing so and nobody's going to punish him if he does. Whether he acts through malice or incompetence makes no difference. He's clear.

What would be really great and productive is if this became the narrative we could focus on and not ALL COPS ARE RACIST.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 577
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1532 on: December 09, 2017, 09:54:57 AM »
The video of this incident is horrific and sickening. The law and the rules are their own thing, I won't comment on them because I don't know the culture and it's not my business. But just on a visceral level, that was a horrendous thing to watch. I've seen several videos of police shootings but that was the worst of them. It's a few things. I'm planning a trip through America next summer, and I'm wondering what would happen if for whatever bizarre reason my wife - whose English isn't perfect, and who can be easily made to panic in tense situations - were in that situation. Then there's the barked re-iteration of the "crawl to me" command from the police officer. That didn't sit well with me. The guy is on the ground, you don't need to continue the aggressive tone anymore, it will only add to the anxiety and jitteriness of the situation. Just a disgusting incident.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 10:08:29 AM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 843
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1533 on: December 09, 2017, 10:32:47 AM »
The video got my heart pumping. I watched it with my anxiety rising, and I had no idea what the cop expected them to do by keeping their hands up and telling them to crawl. He could not have been more unclear. Had I been drinking? Forget it, I'd have been shot immediately.

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 651
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1534 on: December 09, 2017, 10:45:49 AM »
The thing is I don't disagree with anyone, besides EB's assessment... the dude reached for his waste! I understand all the things you've stated, but again, in a perfect world. YES, I think we should hold police to those standards, no argument. And I'm not even a fan of the popo. But the reality is that guy is getting shot. Tell the guy that only one of 6 cops shot him and see if that makes him feel any better.

My first instinct is that I would just lie face down, arms out, palms down, and have him come to me. But for all I know, that would be a fatal disobedience. Lame...

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25505
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1535 on: December 09, 2017, 10:48:17 AM »
We should be trying to make this world a better place, not shaking our heads at people who "get what's coming to them" because that's just the way it is.


fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 651
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1536 on: December 09, 2017, 11:03:05 AM »
We should be trying to make this world a better place, not shaking our heads at people who "get what's coming to them" because that's just the way it is.

Without getting too emphatic with my use of derogatory language, let's just say I have a distaste for leo. And without getting into a bigger picture discussion, it's not about making the world a better place in this instance, it's about making America a better place. Laws need to be changed, and without that, there's no way to hold these people accountable. It's been proven time and again. That's why this guy was ACQUITTED. And as any adult American that's not living under a rock should know, the way we interact with police at this current moment is very tense, and they have the upper hand when it comes to "defense". There's nothing I can do to change that, outside of voting on whatever might impact that on the few occasions that's an option. I'm not implying that he got what was coming to him. And I don't simply shake my head because that's the way it is. I just don't have an answer for how to change that, in an applicable way. BUT, all the good sentiments about how we should be trying to make the would a better place don't change the REALITY OF RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. When that guy made his move, he was done. I don't like it any more than you do.

Offline Phoenix87x

  • From the ashes
  • Posts: 4994
  • Gender: Male
  • The Phoenix shall rise
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1537 on: December 09, 2017, 04:50:01 PM »
I just watched the body cam footage for the shooting of Daniel Shaver. Just Horrifying.  As far as I'm concerned the cop is a murderer. The guy was face down with his hands behind his head. Go cuff him, or get a taser ready or something. If you are worried about a concealed weapon then walk over and cuff him, don't ask some terrified crying dude to awkwardly crawl? to you. Keep your legs crossed, and hands up but crawl toward them? whut?

The cop was a cowboy, and handled the whole thing poorly, and the aggressive threats and taunts were BS too. The other guys didn't fire. I place the blame on him.

I would probably be terrified and crying too if this guy had an AR-15 pointed at me and screaming.



My mind is my church, and reason is my God.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19276
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1538 on: December 09, 2017, 06:41:19 PM »
The shouting isn't unreasonable. They're trained to maintain an authoritative presence, and by and large it works well. In that situation you need people to be frightened. You also need to understand how frightened people behave, though. That's one of the areas where this cop failed terribly. If you're looking to scare people into compliance you have to be prepared for panic and erratic behavior. It also helps if you shout reasonable, non-conflicting commands. This cop should fucking well be in prison, but it's not because he was barking orders at people.

Pretty good example of command presence here. Also one of many reasons you never, ever eat at fucking IHOP. This scene was out of control despite four cops being on site. The sergeant showed up and had the scene under control in 13 seconds.
https://youtu.be/NogQGS0yoFc?t=23
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Phoenix87x

  • From the ashes
  • Posts: 4994
  • Gender: Male
  • The Phoenix shall rise
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1539 on: December 09, 2017, 07:38:50 PM »
^^^^^^  Very impressive

My other favorite part of that vid: 

The Woman (who clearly on tape and with multiple witnesses doing quite alot) saying over and over again that she did nothing  :lol
  and even better "oh crap, I'm about to get arrested for my poor choices, gotta think. Oh I know. Officer, I have kids..."
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 07:54:55 PM by Phoenix87x »
My mind is my church, and reason is my God.