Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 54319 times)

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1330 on: February 15, 2017, 08:47:23 AM »
My god. How stupid can you be if you don't know that Guerilla is a word, not the usual Gorilla. I hope he wins because that's basically like saying "That's just Gay." And you get fired.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1331 on: February 15, 2017, 08:52:19 AM »
This quote does scare me though

"Offended viewers called in asking Adler to be fired for comparing Williams, who is African-American, to a gorilla."

So the mob mentality is at work. Which is common in these times. And it makes things scary and hard to voice yourself when you make one tiny remark, and the world shouts Bigot.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1332 on: February 15, 2017, 08:58:53 AM »
I hope he wins because that's basically like saying "That's just Gay." And you get fired.
I hope he wins too, but if you say "That's just gay", you probably SHOULD get fired, or at least heavily reprimanded.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1333 on: February 15, 2017, 09:03:50 AM »
Gay is a word with many interpretations. Guerilla and Gorilla are two different words.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1334 on: February 15, 2017, 09:32:04 AM »
Yeah, and if you know the history, it shouldn't be demeaning. I'm gay myself and don't find it one bit offensive. Just like the word Faggot. For people that take Pride to the extreme, you'd think they'd be accepting that yes, I am a Fag. It's just words, which I don't understand how minorities can let that fuse the hate. Like the "N" word or for our people "Redskin". It's just nonsense.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1335 on: February 15, 2017, 09:33:15 AM »
Wow. That blows. And fuck Venus Williams for not sticking up for him.

I was wondering why Venus didn't say something one way or the other. I'm guessing she was advised to stay out of it.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1336 on: February 15, 2017, 09:35:00 AM »
Wow. That blows. And fuck Venus Williams for not sticking up for him.

I was wondering why Venus didn't say something one way or the other. I'm guessing she was advised to stay out of it.

Exactly, no need for her to do anything. Which that is trying to lure her under the bus.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1337 on: February 15, 2017, 09:38:05 AM »
She is just waiting to see which way the wind blows in all of this.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1338 on: February 15, 2017, 10:09:46 AM »
I think the thing I dislike about all of this is that the end result is supposed to be a world where race isn't a factor, and yet, this is seemingly injecting race into a circumstance it doesn't belong.  Doesn't this sort of perpetuate the stereotype further?   Call me crazy, but I see Venus Williams, I'm not thinking "wow she's a gorilla!", I'm thinking "she is rocking that dress; was she in the Fappening?"  "Guerilla tactics" is a fairly common expression, especially for someone of my generation, who has heard that countless times in discussions of things like the Vietnam War for example.   

This to me is not just "The Mob" mentality at work, but "The Mob" actively trying to justify it's existence.   I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Venus knew this guy - and vice versa - and while that's not determinative, this is not a case of a casual fan posting something offensive on the "Comments" section of a website.   This is a guy that has to make his living in reporting on - and perhaps interacting with - the players on the tour.   

Offline cramx3

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1339 on: February 15, 2017, 10:13:35 AM »
My god. How stupid can you be if you don't know that Guerilla is a word, not the usual Gorilla. I hope he wins because that's basically like saying "That's just Gay." And you get fired.

Well, to be fair, both words sound the exact same (How did this come out in closed captioning Im wondering?).  I do understand why people would initially find it racists because they may not understand the context and the way it sounds does sound like it could be racist.  But once you hear the reasoning, I think it makes a lot of sense in the context that it was not at all a racist remark.  Which makes me think his firing was not right at all.  And he is now labelled as a racist because of it which hurts him big time unfairly.

And yes Venus does know this guy and apparently those two have been on good terms.  Im guessing she just is staying out of it publicly.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1340 on: February 15, 2017, 10:20:29 AM »
I'm gay myself and don't find it one bit offensive.
That's fine for you, but that doesn't mean that it's nonsense for other gay people to find it offensive, or for black people to find the "n" word offensive, or anything else.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1341 on: February 15, 2017, 10:28:43 AM »
I'm gay myself and don't find it one bit offensive.
That's fine for you, but that doesn't mean that it's nonsense for other gay people to find it offensive, or for black people to find the "n" word offensive, or anything else.

No, but I sort of see a point in Ben_Jamin's post; we can't default to the lowest common denominator of "offense" either.  The Venus Williams thread is a case in point.  That ONE person (I know it may be more, I'm just saying) hears "gorilla" over "Guerilla" shouldn't mean it's an actionable offense.  That announcer was saying all the right things by noted "he chose the wrong word", but in fact, if he meant "guerilla", he did nothing of the sort. 

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1342 on: February 15, 2017, 10:35:20 AM »
Since ESPN is considered to be the "World Wide Leader in Sport" and recently hosted a town hall on sports and race with Obama, I'd think they would have used this as an educational opportunity. Instead they show that they aren't a leader in sports since their not interested in learning about a sport (tennis) or do they care about bettering the discussion on race in sports.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1343 on: February 15, 2017, 10:46:23 AM »
I'm gay myself and don't find it one bit offensive.
That's fine for you, but that doesn't mean that it's nonsense for other gay people to find it offensive, or for black people to find the "n" word offensive, or anything else.

No, but I sort of see a point in Ben_Jamin's post; we can't default to the lowest common denominator of "offense" either.  The Venus Williams thread is a case in point.  That ONE person (I know it may be more, I'm just saying) hears "gorilla" over "Guerilla" shouldn't mean it's an actionable offense.  That announcer was saying all the right things by noted "he chose the wrong word", but in fact, if he meant "guerilla", he did nothing of the sort.

Pretty much you got my point. It's those "words" that they use, which causes an automatic uproar on social media.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1344 on: February 15, 2017, 12:03:10 PM »
I'm gay myself and don't find it one bit offensive.
That's fine for you, but that doesn't mean that it's nonsense for other gay people to find it offensive, or for black people to find the "n" word offensive, or anything else.

No, but I sort of see a point in Ben_Jamin's post; we can't default to the lowest common denominator of "offense" either.  The Venus Williams thread is a case in point.  That ONE person (I know it may be more, I'm just saying) hears "gorilla" over "Guerilla" shouldn't mean it's an actionable offense.  That announcer was saying all the right things by noted "he chose the wrong word", but in fact, if he meant "guerilla", he did nothing of the sort.
Yeah, but that's not what he was talking about.  The Venus Williams thing is kind of ridiculous, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1345 on: February 16, 2017, 05:54:45 PM »
ESPN is awful now, and they love to find any reason to play the race card as it pertains to sports.  For example, Charles Oakley and Draymond Green are playing the race card regarding the owner of the Knicks based on nothing, and ESPN is eating it up with a spoon.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1346 on: March 15, 2017, 01:54:09 PM »
Papers filed back in late december for the civil case against Darren Wilson, the police officer involved in the shooting of Michael Brown, are available online and there's pretty ineresting stuff in there. http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/us-district-court-document-including-officer-darren-wilsons-list-of-admissions/2371/

like here
Quote
33. During this encounter you reached through the window.

RESPONSE: Admitted

34. During this encounter you grabbed for Michael Brown’s body.

RESPONSE: Admitted

35. During this encounter you grab for Michael Brown’s clothing

RESPONSE: Denied

36. You eventually grabbed Michael Brown’s forearm

RESPONSE: Admitted

37. You eventually grabbed Michael Brown’s t-shirt

RESPONSE: Denied


And a prety stunning admission here




And this exchange


 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1347 on: March 15, 2017, 02:09:06 PM »
Not sure what your point or the stunning admission you refer to is. About the only thing I take away from that is that it's possible Johnny escalated the situation needlessly. That wouldn't be surprising to anybody who's ever come across a power-tripping jerk of a cop, but not really relevant here.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1348 on: March 15, 2017, 02:14:15 PM »
Not sure what your point or the stunning admission you refer to is. About the only thing I take away from that is that it's possible Johnny escalated the situation needlessly. That wouldn't be surprising to anybody who's ever come across a power-tripping jerk of a cop, but not really relevant here.

Well, the narravtive on this from certain corners lately seems to be that Michael Brown assaulted him and reached for his gun, end of story.  Hence the Obama admin shouldn't have attended his funeral etc

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1349 on: March 16, 2017, 10:19:22 AM »
Not sure what your point or the stunning admission you refer to is. About the only thing I take away from that is that it's possible Johnny escalated the situation needlessly. That wouldn't be surprising to anybody who's ever come across a power-tripping jerk of a cop, but not really relevant here.

Well, the narravtive on this from certain corners lately seems to be that Michael Brown assaulted him and reached for his gun, end of story.  Hence the Obama admin shouldn't have attended his funeral etc

And none of that is necessarily contradicted by the "stunning admissions".  He drew his weapon, but Brown may have reached for it after it was drawn (I didn't see Wilson was asked that question)?  And Wilson WAS assaulted by Brown.  "Assault" is the threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm.  Both were present, even from the point of view of the most ardent civil rights advocate. 

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1350 on: March 16, 2017, 10:27:20 AM »
All I know is I'm not grappling or charging a policeman if he draws his gun.  Even if I'm in the right I will not put myself in harms way and deal with the consequences rightly or wrongly accused.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1351 on: March 20, 2017, 01:57:39 PM »
You know, at some point we really need to re-evaluate the current nature of qualified immunity. Combined with overbroad standard of reasonableness applied to the police, it effectively wipes out accountability when it's most needed. We can all be sued when we fuck something up. If I botch my brake job and it results in me running into another car, I'm going to get sued. I might also be prosecuted. No matter how long the string of mistakes is in a case of police negligence, in the end as long as they weren't acting criminally, also a different standard in this case, then they're protected from civil lawsuit, and in practice criminal prosecution, as well.

While this isn't as clear-cut as flashbanging a toddler in a crib, it's still a real mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

In a nutshell, 3 cops banged on the wrong door. The homeowner grabbed a weapon and cautiously opened the door. Naturally they shot him 6 times. Given the totality of the circumstances this was ruled justifiable. At the same time there's a long string of events that would have prevented this, and perhaps getting their proverbial blue pants sued off might cause the sheriff's department to up their game a bit. As I replied to my cop-hating brother who posted the article, I'm forced to agree with the 11th's decision. Based on the legal framework they're obliged to this was the right call. At the same time this legal framework is bullshit and results in bullshit decisions like this one.

Sadly, as I've said before, police are being a politically protected entity. I don't see anybody willing to stick their neck out to make it easier to sue cops.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1352 on: March 20, 2017, 02:02:22 PM »
Now they should be held accountable. 
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

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Offline axeman90210

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1353 on: March 20, 2017, 02:24:32 PM »
Photobucket sucks.

Offline Adami

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1354 on: March 20, 2017, 02:32:07 PM »
Good god.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1355 on: March 20, 2017, 03:44:26 PM »
If you actually read the investigative report it seems pretty unlikely that the poor bastard was "boiled alive" by brutal guards. Personally, I'd have liked to see it judged by 12 people rather than written off by some self-serving prosecutor, simply because so many of the witnesses are cops and criminals, both inherently dishonest, but for whatever their statements are worth almost everybody backs up the guard's story and nobody actually knows how the hell he died. The handful of inmates supporting the sous-vide story are pretty contradictory. Hard to take him at his word when so much of his story is refuted by video.

http://www.miamisao.com/investigative-report-in-custody-death-of-darren-rainey/
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1356 on: March 21, 2017, 08:02:01 AM »
You know, at some point we really need to re-evaluate the current nature of qualified immunity. Combined with overbroad standard of reasonableness applied to the police, it effectively wipes out accountability when it's most needed. We can all be sued when we fuck something up. If I botch my brake job and it results in me running into another car, I'm going to get sued. I might also be prosecuted. No matter how long the string of mistakes is in a case of police negligence, in the end as long as they weren't acting criminally, also a different standard in this case, then they're protected from civil lawsuit, and in practice criminal prosecution, as well.

While this isn't as clear-cut as flashbanging a toddler in a crib, it's still a real mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

In a nutshell, 3 cops banged on the wrong door. The homeowner grabbed a weapon and cautiously opened the door. Naturally they shot him 6 times. Given the totality of the circumstances this was ruled justifiable. At the same time there's a long string of events that would have prevented this, and perhaps getting their proverbial blue pants sued off might cause the sheriff's department to up their game a bit. As I replied to my cop-hating brother who posted the article, I'm forced to agree with the 11th's decision. Based on the legal framework they're obliged to this was the right call. At the same time this legal framework is bullshit and results in bullshit decisions like this one.

Sadly, as I've said before, police are being a politically protected entity. I don't see anybody willing to stick their neck out to make it easier to sue cops.

I think it needs to be something more... creative, for lack of a better word.  You can't sue the cops personally, unless they move significantly outside of their job description.   You can't have police hamstrung and sitting in their cars fearful of being sued.   Same with judges.  BUT, if there is a procedural fix to that, be it, two teams with alternate information that has to jive at the scene, or some other check and balance to ensure that the any one of the "long stream of events" actually went right, maybe there should be provision to sue the force in total, or the township/town/city/state of the police unit?   Force them to operate correctly from a procedure standpoint. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1357 on: March 21, 2017, 08:22:27 AM »
You know, at some point we really need to re-evaluate the current nature of qualified immunity. Combined with overbroad standard of reasonableness applied to the police, it effectively wipes out accountability when it's most needed. We can all be sued when we fuck something up. If I botch my brake job and it results in me running into another car, I'm going to get sued. I might also be prosecuted. No matter how long the string of mistakes is in a case of police negligence, in the end as long as they weren't acting criminally, also a different standard in this case, then they're protected from civil lawsuit, and in practice criminal prosecution, as well.

While this isn't as clear-cut as flashbanging a toddler in a crib, it's still a real mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

In a nutshell, 3 cops banged on the wrong door. The homeowner grabbed a weapon and cautiously opened the door. Naturally they shot him 6 times. Given the totality of the circumstances this was ruled justifiable. At the same time there's a long string of events that would have prevented this, and perhaps getting their proverbial blue pants sued off might cause the sheriff's department to up their game a bit. As I replied to my cop-hating brother who posted the article, I'm forced to agree with the 11th's decision. Based on the legal framework they're obliged to this was the right call. At the same time this legal framework is bullshit and results in bullshit decisions like this one.

Sadly, as I've said before, police are being a politically protected entity. I don't see anybody willing to stick their neck out to make it easier to sue cops.

I think it needs to be something more... creative, for lack of a better word.  You can't sue the cops personally, unless they move significantly outside of their job description.   You can't have police hamstrung and sitting in their cars fearful of being sued.   Same with judges.  BUT, if there is a procedural fix to that, be it, two teams with alternate information that has to jive at the scene, or some other check and balance to ensure that the any one of the "long stream of events" actually went right, maybe there should be provision to sue the force in total, or the township/town/city/state of the police unit?   Force them to operate correctly from a procedure standpoint.
I'm not sure I see more/different policy making any difference if they're still immune after they completely disregard it. And I don't find the "hamstrung in their cars" part reasonable, either. Fear of repercussions leads to accountability, and doctors still treat patients.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1358 on: March 21, 2017, 08:32:50 AM »
You know, at some point we really need to re-evaluate the current nature of qualified immunity. Combined with overbroad standard of reasonableness applied to the police, it effectively wipes out accountability when it's most needed. We can all be sued when we fuck something up. If I botch my brake job and it results in me running into another car, I'm going to get sued. I might also be prosecuted. No matter how long the string of mistakes is in a case of police negligence, in the end as long as they weren't acting criminally, also a different standard in this case, then they're protected from civil lawsuit, and in practice criminal prosecution, as well.

While this isn't as clear-cut as flashbanging a toddler in a crib, it's still a real mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

In a nutshell, 3 cops banged on the wrong door. The homeowner grabbed a weapon and cautiously opened the door. Naturally they shot him 6 times. Given the totality of the circumstances this was ruled justifiable. At the same time there's a long string of events that would have prevented this, and perhaps getting their proverbial blue pants sued off might cause the sheriff's department to up their game a bit. As I replied to my cop-hating brother who posted the article, I'm forced to agree with the 11th's decision. Based on the legal framework they're obliged to this was the right call. At the same time this legal framework is bullshit and results in bullshit decisions like this one.

Sadly, as I've said before, police are being a politically protected entity. I don't see anybody willing to stick their neck out to make it easier to sue cops.

I think it needs to be something more... creative, for lack of a better word.  You can't sue the cops personally, unless they move significantly outside of their job description.   You can't have police hamstrung and sitting in their cars fearful of being sued.   Same with judges.  BUT, if there is a procedural fix to that, be it, two teams with alternate information that has to jive at the scene, or some other check and balance to ensure that the any one of the "long stream of events" actually went right, maybe there should be provision to sue the force in total, or the township/town/city/state of the police unit?   Force them to operate correctly from a procedure standpoint.

I vote for firings with half of their pension funds immediately being donated to charitable organization in the cities they were assigned to serve and protect. I read so many stories of cops getting disciplined for fucking up and being transferred, only to reoffend in another PD.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1359 on: March 21, 2017, 09:04:36 AM »
You know, at some point we really need to re-evaluate the current nature of qualified immunity. Combined with overbroad standard of reasonableness applied to the police, it effectively wipes out accountability when it's most needed. We can all be sued when we fuck something up. If I botch my brake job and it results in me running into another car, I'm going to get sued. I might also be prosecuted. No matter how long the string of mistakes is in a case of police negligence, in the end as long as they weren't acting criminally, also a different standard in this case, then they're protected from civil lawsuit, and in practice criminal prosecution, as well.

While this isn't as clear-cut as flashbanging a toddler in a crib, it's still a real mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

In a nutshell, 3 cops banged on the wrong door. The homeowner grabbed a weapon and cautiously opened the door. Naturally they shot him 6 times. Given the totality of the circumstances this was ruled justifiable. At the same time there's a long string of events that would have prevented this, and perhaps getting their proverbial blue pants sued off might cause the sheriff's department to up their game a bit. As I replied to my cop-hating brother who posted the article, I'm forced to agree with the 11th's decision. Based on the legal framework they're obliged to this was the right call. At the same time this legal framework is bullshit and results in bullshit decisions like this one.

Sadly, as I've said before, police are being a politically protected entity. I don't see anybody willing to stick their neck out to make it easier to sue cops.

I think it needs to be something more... creative, for lack of a better word.  You can't sue the cops personally, unless they move significantly outside of their job description.   You can't have police hamstrung and sitting in their cars fearful of being sued.   Same with judges.  BUT, if there is a procedural fix to that, be it, two teams with alternate information that has to jive at the scene, or some other check and balance to ensure that the any one of the "long stream of events" actually went right, maybe there should be provision to sue the force in total, or the township/town/city/state of the police unit?   Force them to operate correctly from a procedure standpoint.

I vote for firings with half of their pension funds immediately being donated to charitable organization in the cities they were assigned to serve and protect. I read so many stories of cops getting disciplined for fucking up and being transferred, only to reoffend in another PD.

Sounds similar to poor teachers who have tenure.  I offer no solutions, but I do think police need to be held accountable, even as individuals when off duty and as a whole when on duty.  To me, as they are the ones who hold the law, they should be held to a higher standard than they are. 

Offline Grappler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1360 on: March 22, 2017, 07:38:40 AM »
but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

Of course there are. But trashing Apu's Quick-E-Stop doesn't do anything but hurt Apu.

But lets be real, in this America, it's most likely not Apu's, and they prob have insurance
I don't know, I live in a very small town in rural NC, and even WE have one convenience store run by an Apu and his family. 

And whether or not they have insurance is irrelevant.

I'm new to the thread and not going back through pages to see if anyone addressed this, but:

I work as a commercial (business) insurance agent, and the idea that people think insurance is "free money" drives me crazy.  Businesses can pay several thousand dollars per year for property insurance, depending on the type of business and the value of the items inside the building.  A small office may not have much inside and carries a cheap insurance premium for the year, but a retail store with inventory or expensive products can pay quite a bit to insure them.

Filing a claim to be reimbursed for stolen or damaged property (building glass/windows, inventory, displays), or worse yet, for a fire that damages the entire store, will increase their insurance costs for the next several years, depending on the severity and the frequency of claims that the business has had.  They also have to eat the deductible as well.

Looting and setting your local businesses on fire is not the answer when you're upset with the police/the system/the man.  Yes, they have insurance, but just like anyone else, they prefer not to have to use it, if possible.  It's a business expense, and increasing insurance costs hurts the business' bottom line - when financial trouble hits, businesses will try to save money on insurance, but they contractually have to keep it.  They will let employees go and reduce the workforce before eliminating any insurance. 

It's juvenile behavior, plain and simple..  How is stealing a TV or some booze helping your cause?  It's only hurting your town and your neighbors, and could cost them their jobs in that retail store that you've just broken into and trashed.

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1361 on: March 22, 2017, 07:45:23 AM »
We celebrate the Boston Tea Party - which was basically rioting with destruction of property. It just depends on which side of history you're looking at.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1362 on: March 22, 2017, 08:56:30 AM »
We celebrate the Boston Tea Party - which was basically rioting with destruction of property. It just depends on which side of history you're looking at.

Of course, the winner writes the history books, at least historically.  It'll be interesting in the future where there will be plenty of documentation from both sides of confrontations in the past.

Offline Grappler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1363 on: March 22, 2017, 09:08:30 AM »
We celebrate the Boston Tea Party - which was basically rioting with destruction of property. It just depends on which side of history you're looking at.

Agreed, but looting neighborhood stores doesn't have a direct impact on the social issue at hand - American colonists had issues with the British tea acts, so they destroyed the imported tea.  Stealing a TV or new pair of Air Jordans isn't helping the cause when you're protesting racial injustice or police brutality. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1364 on: March 22, 2017, 09:11:46 AM »
You know, at some point we really need to re-evaluate the current nature of qualified immunity. Combined with overbroad standard of reasonableness applied to the police, it effectively wipes out accountability when it's most needed. We can all be sued when we fuck something up. If I botch my brake job and it results in me running into another car, I'm going to get sued. I might also be prosecuted. No matter how long the string of mistakes is in a case of police negligence, in the end as long as they weren't acting criminally, also a different standard in this case, then they're protected from civil lawsuit, and in practice criminal prosecution, as well.

While this isn't as clear-cut as flashbanging a toddler in a crib, it's still a real mess.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/03/17/appeals_court_rules_officer_who_killed_man_in_his_own_home_cannot_be_sued.html

In a nutshell, 3 cops banged on the wrong door. The homeowner grabbed a weapon and cautiously opened the door. Naturally they shot him 6 times. Given the totality of the circumstances this was ruled justifiable. At the same time there's a long string of events that would have prevented this, and perhaps getting their proverbial blue pants sued off might cause the sheriff's department to up their game a bit. As I replied to my cop-hating brother who posted the article, I'm forced to agree with the 11th's decision. Based on the legal framework they're obliged to this was the right call. At the same time this legal framework is bullshit and results in bullshit decisions like this one.

Sadly, as I've said before, police are being a politically protected entity. I don't see anybody willing to stick their neck out to make it easier to sue cops.

I think it needs to be something more... creative, for lack of a better word.  You can't sue the cops personally, unless they move significantly outside of their job description.   You can't have police hamstrung and sitting in their cars fearful of being sued.   Same with judges.  BUT, if there is a procedural fix to that, be it, two teams with alternate information that has to jive at the scene, or some other check and balance to ensure that the any one of the "long stream of events" actually went right, maybe there should be provision to sue the force in total, or the township/town/city/state of the police unit?   Force them to operate correctly from a procedure standpoint.
I'm not sure I see more/different policy making any difference if they're still immune after they completely disregard it. And I don't find the "hamstrung in their cars" part reasonable, either. Fear of repercussions leads to accountability, and doctors still treat patients.

But there's a difference there; one of the problems of healthcare is the exorbitant prices and some of that is the exorbitant costs of insurance premiums on policies that are in place for that very reason.   I'm not sure we want to extend that quagmire into law enforcement.  Further, doctors are 'service personnel', but they aren't GOVERNMENT service personnel.    "Sovereign immunity" is not a minor thing, and is not to be toyed with frivolously.