Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 54982 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2014, 10:17:41 AM »
I don't have the distain for police officers that some of you apparently do and in cases like this that involve an officer and kids like Brown (who has 4 arrests in 6 months since turning 18) and the 'key' witness who has a questionable past as well.....I gravitate towards taking the officers word. Maybe that's a flaw of mine....who knows.


Who has something to gain? Clearly it's the cop, and not the numerous witnesses who could face a misdemeanor for lying. There's a reason we don't take the accused word for it.


Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2014, 10:29:17 AM »
I don't have the distain for police officers that some of you apparently do and in cases like this that involve an officer and kids like Brown (who has 4 arrests in 6 months since turning 18) and the 'key' witness who has a questionable past as well.....I gravitate towards taking the officers word. Maybe that's a flaw of mine....who knows.


Who has something to gain? Clearly it's the cop, and not the numerous witnesses who could face a misdemeanor for lying. There's a reason we don't take the accused word for it.

I think the comminity does have 'something to gain' from it as a whole in their eyes.....and I think that's where racism comes in from their side as well. It's a chance to do and say whatever they can to make sure 'they' "get justice" and that the white cop 'gets what he deserves'......even if that cop did indeed act within the law. Given 'their' (the comminities) actions since the incident I highly doubt the threat of facing a misdemeanor charge for lying is something they're too concerned about wheras the officer lying could land him a much greater charge. 
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2014, 10:33:06 AM »
wow, dude  :facepalm:

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2014, 10:43:36 AM »
wow, dude  :facepalm:

How's that a 'wow dude'? That is no way far fetched considering what's been going on.

For me to suggest that some witness statments would be slanted to favor Brown is the same as some of the suggestions here that the officers account of the incident is slanted to favor him. Hopefully the investigation proves without a doubt what really happened.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2014, 10:46:58 AM »
Plenty of good points, and I'll be giving them some thought before cranking out another long-winded reply.

I do want to address this, though, as it wasn't really the point they were making. From the cop's perspective, cops never lie. They're not concerned about his testimony not matching what's on video (and according to at least one court it doesn't matter anyway as the testimony trumps video to the contrary). What they're concerned about is that it'll be the video that creates the perception of truth, and not Johnny's testimony. As it stands now, their badge and demeanor are what make them honest and truthful. Their concern is about that being undermined by ubiquitous video. At some point if he busts somebody off camera or the camera isn't working his word will no longer be good enough based solely on his badge and demeanor (as it should be, IMO).

Yeah, I don't get that logic.   I believe you, but I don't understand it.   Isn't that already the case?  That generally speaking hard evidence (video, a fingerprint, a recording...) has more "credibility" than a witness?
Cops have a great deal of credibility on the stand. Unless you're in Compton or Camden juries trust them. Judges know they lie but let it slide since calling them out would be more trouble than they want. Any time one precedes a statement with "because of my training and experience I was able to discern" then damn near anything that follows will be presumed true unless proven false. That's what they're afraid of losing, and why I dislike, the presumption of innocence on their part so much (although I'm actually a bit flustered by something you said earlier on that point which I've yet to get to).

I was on a jury about two months ago, and while I concede this is totally anecdotal, I have to say my direct experience is not consistent with yours.   First, the notion that "judges know they lie but let it slide" is nonsense, or at least subject to argument (in the grand sense) from the defense counsel.  In my trial (drug trafficking and weapons offenses on a four-time repeat felon; this guy has a newborn and would not likely see high school graduation if convicted), if anything, the judge paid the MOST deference to the defense.  He was actually very demanding of the star witness for the prosecution, not coincidentially a police officer. 

As for the jury, I can't talk too much about the specifics, as I took an oath, but I can tell you it was not at all like the clichés would have you believe.   Put a different way, be careful what you assume. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2014, 10:51:09 AM »
Yeah. This is getting ugly. This is going to sound horrible, but in a sick way I want it to get way worse. I want a war to erupt down there. I want the country to realize what's actually happening here.

And what exactly will that "war" show that we don't already know?  That people are quick to point fingers, especially at author-i-tie?  That every kid is all of a sudden the model citizen when he takes a bullet?   That there is a certain subset of people - regardless of color or economic status - that will use a societal issue to gain personal advantage without a shred of guilt?  Thanks, but I'm not sure we need more people killed and/or injured to see that. 

I'm being a little sarcastic here, but the best thing for everyone would be to let this calm down, let cooler heads prefail, and let the system that has, for the most part, served us well for almost 250 years do what it does.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2014, 10:53:42 AM »
I don't have the distain for police officers that some of you apparently do and in cases like this that involve an officer and kids like Brown (who has 4 arrests in 6 months since turning 18) and the 'key' witness who has a questionable past as well.....I gravitate towards taking the officers word. Maybe that's a flaw of mine....who knows.


Who has something to gain? Clearly it's the cop, and not the numerous witnesses who could face a misdemeanor for lying. There's a reason we don't take the accused word for it.

I think the comminity does have 'something to gain' from it as a whole in their eyes.....and I think that's where racism comes in from their side as well. It's a chance to do and say whatever they can to make sure 'they' "get justice" and that the white cop 'gets what he deserves'......even if that cop did indeed act within the law. Given 'their' (the comminities) actions since the incident I highly doubt the threat of facing a misdemeanor charge for lying is something they're too concerned about wheras the officer lying could land him a much greater charge. 

I haven't read or heard anything about the race of the cop. Chances are your right, but until I see otherwise, I'm calling this an assumption. The response by the department is also highly suspicious, and downright inept.

And it's about much more than just this incident, it's about years of problems. Problems like what we see right now. They don't need to lie, there is more than abundant evidence to back up their complaints.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/even-before-teen-michael-browns-slaying-in-mo-racial-questions-have-hung-over-police/2014/08/13/78b3c5c6-2307-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html

I'm sorry, but the idea that the cop would be more concerned about lying when he just shot a young man is ridiculous.

Let's be honest: The War on Drugs is the new Jim Crow and there are serious human rights issues in America. These riots and protests are a result of that, this latest shooting is just another event in years, if not centuries, of subjugation and racism.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2014, 10:55:21 AM »
I'm being a little sarcastic here, but the best thing for everyone would be to let this calm down, let cooler heads prefail, and let the system that has, for the most part, served us well for almost 250 years do what it does.

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Unless your skin is black

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2014, 10:56:29 AM »
I firmly believe there is far more incentive for the accused to lie than the cop.  There is no upside to the cop lying, at least not as compares to that of the accused.   Plus there is the general human aversion to "punishment" that the cop is not seeking to avoid with his testimony.  It is not a minor point that generally speaking, in a crime situation, the cop is not the actor (I know this thread is about a situation where the cop IS an actor, and by the way, I don't know that I would extend my "benefit of the doubt" to this case either, because the cop DOES have something to gain by lying).


Which is it? 

Read the post; the first case, when the cop is merely testifying, the incentive to lie is no more or less than any other person doing their job, especially as compared to the defendant who presumably is looking at some form of direct punishment if found to have committed the crimes of which he/she is accused.  The second case, when the cop is actually a PARTY in the case (and there is no scenario that can happen except that the cop is a defendant) is vastly different, and the cop WOULD have the same incentive to lie that any other defendant facing punishment for his crimes would face. 

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I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and speculate that keeping himself out of prison for violating someone's civil rights is most definitely an incentive for the cop to lie.  There are more and more people coming forward in this case and confirming that this kid had his hands up in the air and was more than 20' away from the cruiser when he was shot.  I've yet to hear or read a compelling refutation of this.  Right now it's an allegation and while it may not yet be a "fact" by the criminal justice definition of such, at the very least this cop would appear to have demonstrated a serious lack of critical thinking.  We can slice it and dice it all we want, but if what the witnesses are saying is proven to be true, that cop should do time in the joint.

Wouldn't argue with you one bit.  IF.    I wish I could write that "IF" bigger, because it IS a big IF.   Don't put any words in my mouth; I am not defending bad behavior.  If this is not a "good shooting" as they say on TV, I am with you in terms of the justness of the punishment.   My only beef is with the kangaroo courtroom antics going on.  We have a process for a reason. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2014, 11:11:39 AM »

Honestly, the us against the world mentality reminds me of all of the depressed people on the thread I started elsewhere. If you're not one of them then you have no basis whatsoever for comment because you could never, ever understand. There are certain groups of people intolerant of criticism by outside members (no matter how rational and logical my argument is, if I disagree with a die-hard feminist it can only possibly be because I hate women). This is the attitude that a lot of cops have and something that I think is a consequence of their job.

Well, anything that I say to the contrary is poor communication skills on my part, but I'm with you.  I don't generally get the "us against the world mentality" in any context; cops, gays, feminists, sports teams, whatever.  It's artificial in my view, because the honest truth is, 90% of the time the world doesn't give enough of a shit to actually muster up enough care to BE against you.  :)  (As an off-topic aside, I love when the young athlete invariably says "we shocked the world!".  No, no you didn't.  The vast majority of the "world" doesn't even know you exist let alone that you accomplished some minor task that doesn't do a thing to feed, clothe, bathe, care for, or in any other way enrich them.)


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However, don't you think that if you're going to put people in a position of authority over everybody else, ostensibly for the purpose of protecting them, that you need to hold them to a higher standard? Furthermore, if those people are also in charge of policing themselves, doesn't that make it even more important to do so? As I've been pointing out, there are a lot of things that make the system lean in Johnny's favor. You and I would both want to approach anything the government does with a highly skeptical eye, and I think doing so with police is every bit as important. To assume that their actions are kosher in lieu of any evidence to the contrary seems pretty risky to me.

Well, the first part of this, the higher standard, I honesly struggle with.  I don't know even how I feel about this let alone how society should handle it.  I mean, let's use the President instead of cops.  You presumably "hire" (vote for) him or her BECAUSE of their judgment.  So does smoking weed in college say anything about that judgement?  How about a little coke back in the day?  How about a little head under the desk.  He is, after all, THE MOST POWERFUL MAN ON THE PLANET; there must be no shortage of temptation in that department.  I know for me, I'm not a huge "cheating" kind of guy, but I know that the reasoning skills I use to formulate a strategic transaction are NOT the same reasoning skills I use to convince myself that it is better that I go home to my girlfriend than continue down whatever path I'm on with the cute redhead at the local publick house.  But is that the same for everyone else?   So, I can't even answer the GENERAL question on differing standards, let alone for a cop who is potentially looking down the barrel of a gun being held by someone that wants to shoot him just for his uniform.

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Also, cops do have reasons to lie. While the accused might have better reasons, they're there all the same. Professional pride comes to mind. If you bust some guy for having a QP in the trunk and his lawyer challenges the legality of the search, do you really want to concede that he actually was driving quite well and lose your case? As for actual incentives, depending on the crime there are incentives both financial and personal. Busting drunks and dopers makes money for your department, and that means better conditions for you. Also, one of those poorly kept secrets is that cops actually are judged on the performance of their jobs. Bungled collars are certainly not going to look great on your write-up. Seizing 100g and 8 Ferraris will probably get you a pretty nice one, though.

Well, I can't and won't argue this on an absolute level, but nuance and degree matter.  Is the incentive zero?   No.   But there's a level of inherent incentive instilled in all of us (why would a cop's professional pride be any greater, necessarily, than mine or yours?) but the circumstantial (meaning based in the circumstances) incentive is VERY much higher in the case of the defendant.   This was intangible, but nonetheless CRYSTAL CLEAR in the case I heard.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2014, 11:15:29 AM »
Brown (who has 4 arrests in 6 months since turning 18)

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Not according to his mom and step dad.   He was a good kid who "just wanted to go to college" before he was "executed" by the cops.    I believe the mom.  ;) 

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2014, 11:19:17 AM »
Do you even know what those arrests are for?
Kind of bullshit to use an arrest record as a judgement of character if you don't even know what the arrests were for.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2014, 11:25:58 AM »
Do you even know what those arrests are for?
Kind of bullshit to use an arrest record as a judgement of character if you don't even know what the arrests were for.
Nah, bullshit is bringing it up in the first place. Those arrests had no bearing on the OIS in question. Whether he was a saint or a shitbag isn't really a factor at this stage of the game. At the point in which this encounter began he was a citizen and nothing more or less.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2014, 11:26:39 AM »

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2014, 11:31:19 AM »
Brown (who has 4 arrests in 6 months since turning 18)

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Not according to his mom and step dad.   He was a good kid who "just wanted to go to college" before he was "executed" by the cops.    I believe the mom.  ;)

Do you even know what those arrests are for?
Kind of bullshit to use an arrest record as a judgement of character if you don't even know what the arrests were for.

Also:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-no-criminal-record/14049261/


My statment was based off a interview I listened to on the radio Tuesday afternoon.......I'm going to send an e-mail to the talk show and let them know their guest blatantly lied to everyone.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2014, 11:31:50 AM »
Brown (who has 4 arrests in 6 months since turning 18)

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Not according to his mom and step dad.   He was a good kid who "just wanted to go to college" before he was "executed" by the cops.    I believe the mom.  ;)

Even if that were the case... if this dude's hands were up, the cops were out of line. It doesn't matter how many arrests the kid had.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2014, 11:34:20 AM »
I'm being a little sarcastic here, but the best thing for everyone would be to let this calm down, let cooler heads prefail, and let the system that has, for the most part, served us well for almost 250 years do what it does.

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Unless your skin is black

...

Still haven't got the "multiple quote" thing down yet, so this is for this comment AND the one before, but that you have an element of truth in your statements doesn't mean that it is the abiding truth.  The mob mentality can easily be as racist if not more racist (because of the lack of accountability for any one member of the mob) than the individual.    Obviously, that "race" is even being mentioned here before we know the race of the cop says that "racism" is alive and well in the US of A, but it's fanning the fires to be making this either a racial event or indicative of any grander racial temperature of the country.  Race doesn't belong in this discussion unless and until a distinct racial component is determined to exist between the two (or however many cops/kids there are involved) primary actors.  "Race" works both ways, and in so doing, works FOR neither side.


Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2014, 11:38:29 AM »
Do you even know what those arrests are for?
Kind of bullshit to use an arrest record as a judgement of character if you don't even know what the arrests were for.
Nah, bullshit is bringing it up in the first place. Those arrests had no bearing on the OIS in question. Whether he was a saint or a shitbag isn't really a factor at this stage of the game. At the point in which this encounter began he was a citizen and nothing more or less.

Look, my point should have been in green, and should have been clearer.  I apologize for taking the easy way out.   The arrests DON'T bear on his character (though there is some relevance IF, for example, he has been arrested four times for boosting gas stations, and he is the primary observed suspect on a call to a boosted gas station; this is not subject to discussion but is well-settled law, regardless of color of skin).  The commentary was to the fluid nature of information at this point and the inherent bias in ALL sides of this. 

Someone mentioned getting the cops out of their and letting things go as they go... if you ask me, we should get the MEDIA out of there, and let people act according to their conscience, without making this a reality TV show where everyone gets their 86 seconds of fame.   

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2014, 11:44:13 AM »
There is no doubt that the system works against blacks more than whites, but my frustration is with the "white guilt" folks (I know a few) who shrug off every arrest of a black as being another injustice.*

Having said that, are some blacks unfairly arrested, prosecuted and/or convicted?  Absolutely.  It would be naive to suggest otherwise. 

*This is meant in general and not at all referring to the circumstances pertaining to the death of Michael Brown.

Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2014, 11:45:52 AM »
Do you even know what those arrests are for?
Kind of bullshit to use an arrest record as a judgement of character if you don't even know what the arrests were for.
Nah, bullshit is bringing it up in the first place. Those arrests had no bearing on the OIS in question. Whether he was a saint or a shitbag isn't really a factor at this stage of the game. At the point in which this encounter began he was a citizen and nothing more or less.


Someone mentioned getting the cops out of their and letting things go as they go... if you ask me, we should get the MEDIA out of there, and let people act according to their conscience, without making this a reality TV show where everyone gets their 86 seconds of fame.

According to the first amendment, the media has just as much of a right to be there as the people who should be acting according to their conscience.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2014, 11:58:19 AM »
Yeah, I don't know as these people are hamming it up for the cameras.

While I have no opinion on the shooting, and my opinion on the rioting is that they were a stupid unruly mob, the cop's behavior after those events has been questionable. Those people have a right to protest and according to most of the media folk the protests have been quite nonviolent in nature. While I'll certainly celebrate when a politician get's teargassed, it really does seem like the heavy handed approach is uncalled for at this point. One of the videos was of a group of people standing inside a fenced off yard on somebody's private property and having a CS canister lobbed directly at them over the fence. There's something very wrong with that. You've got media people being arrested and their gear disassembled. I should think that three days after the rioting there should be no need for the police state that they're instituting, particularly since the more they try to quell demonstrations the more they'll create.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2014, 11:58:28 AM »
I'm being a little sarcastic here, but the best thing for everyone would be to let this calm down, let cooler heads prefail, and let the system that has, for the most part, served us well for almost 250 years do what it does.

...

Unless your skin is black

...

Still haven't got the "multiple quote" thing down yet, so this is for this comment AND the one before, but that you have an element of truth in your statements doesn't mean that it is the abiding truth.  The mob mentality can easily be as racist if not more racist (because of the lack of accountability for any one member of the mob) than the individual.    Obviously, that "race" is even being mentioned here before we know the race of the cop says that "racism" is alive and well in the US of A, but it's fanning the fires to be making this either a racial event or indicative of any grander racial temperature of the country.  Race doesn't belong in this discussion unless and until a distinct racial component is determined to exist between the two (or however many cops/kids there are involved) primary actors.  "Race" works both ways, and in so doing, works FOR neither side.

The cop could be black. That does not change the fact that blacks live in an unfair system. And the people in Ferguson are protesting that system as much as they are protesting this shooting. There's been problems seething for a while, and it's not as if one black person got shot by a cop and then this happened.

This country is so god damn delusional that something like this needs to happen to waken them up to what's really going on. Do you think a huge group of black people are upset for no reason? There's very good reasons why they feel the way they do, and to pretend as if race isn't a factor in that is harmful to actually solving the issues.

If you want to call it fanning the flames, then I'd say good riddance. Let the fire burn the fuel out, so that there is no longer any fire.

Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2014, 12:26:27 PM »
I feel like if it was a black cop that shot the kid, that would have been made public by now in an effort to diffuse the situation.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2014, 12:54:29 PM »
Scheavo, your race baiting in the thread is inappropriate, and you have been told that in the past.  Consider this your warning.  Stick to the topic and not unfounded accusations regarding race.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2014, 12:59:28 PM »
What race baiting, he's just pointing out that the system has never really worked in the favor of African Americans..

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2014, 01:06:00 PM »
I was on a jury about two months ago, and while I concede this is totally anecdotal, I have to say my direct experience is not consistent with yours.   First, the notion that "judges know they lie but let it slide" is nonsense, or at least subject to argument (in the grand sense) from the defense counsel.  In my trial (drug trafficking and weapons offenses on a four-time repeat felon; this guy has a newborn and would not likely see high school graduation if convicted), if anything, the judge paid the MOST deference to the defense.  He was actually very demanding of the star witness for the prosecution, not coincidentially a police officer. 

As for the jury, I can't talk too much about the specifics, as I took an oath, but I can tell you it was not at all like the clichés would have you believe.   Put a different way, be careful what you assume.
In your case, if the 4 time loser and the cop both told directly oppositional stories and there was no evidence whatsoever to support either claim, who would you, the jury and the judge find more credible? Hell, even I might have some reason to believe the cop more. Combine that with a second tendency: do you honestly think that judges really believe that dopers are constantly dropping their stash by accident right at the foot of cops? Apparently it's a constant occurrence in New York--clumsiest potheads on Earth from what I can tell. In 30+ years I have never once dropped my stash in front of anybody problematic. You reckon they believe that every person driving with dope in the car couldn't keep their car inside the two lines? Cops will tell you flat out that it's the people driving the speed limit, coming to full stops and driving as safely as possible that are the dopers, yet when they bust them it's because they were driving erratically. Judges aren't stupid and they know that PC gets fudged all the time, yet in treating every case as a closed event, where every witness starts with a clean slate, the cop still seems more credible than most defendants.

Good ole testilying, and we all know it happens.

And I want to point out here that I don't think most cops are going around lying about shooting people or extorting blowjobs form prostitutes. It's not the criminal behavior that I'm on about. This (particular tangent, at least) started with us discussing abuse of authority and corruption, and lying about the circumstances of a bust qualify as both, IMO.

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Well, anything that I say to the contrary is poor communication skills on my part, but I'm with you.  I don't generally get the "us against the world mentality" in any context; cops, gays, feminists, sports teams, whatever.  It's artificial in my view, because the honest truth is, 90% of the time the world doesn't give enough of a shit to actually muster up enough care to BE against you.  :)  (As an off-topic aside, I love when the young athlete invariably says "we shocked the world!".  No, no you didn't.  The vast majority of the "world" doesn't even know you exist let alone that you accomplished some minor task that doesn't do a thing to feed, clothe, bathe, care for, or in any other way enrich them.)
When doing some reading up on the whole testilying thing, I read some of the motivations, and one of them was quite intriguing. Not only are the cops going up against the bad guys, but in their efforts to do so they're also going up against what [strictly for the sake of this discussion] we'll call the liberal courts system. This is a good point. I'm personally a big fan of Mapp, but I suspect that most police find it an awful, awful thing. A big component of "fudging" some facts on the stand is going to be their attempt to do their job while fighting a law that from their perspective is designed to hinder them and protect criminals. Wouldn't you be inclined to embellish your PC a wee bit?


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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2014, 02:43:22 PM »
Scheavo, your race baiting in the thread is inappropriate, and you have been told that in the past.  Consider this your warning.  Stick to the topic and not unfounded accusations regarding race.

This thread has "racism" in it's title. It's about a situations where race is playing a role. There is no way to not talk about this event, and the response to the event, without talking about race - especially not the proven, substantiated evidence showing the unfair treatment blacks and minorities face in our legal system, and have faced for years. And I'm not sure what "unfounded accusations regarding race" you could possibly be talking about. I mean, I don't even know where to begin by demonstrating that black people face an unfair system. It's like trying to defend the fact that the sky is blue. I even linked to an article earlier in the thread that showed how black people, specifically black people in Ferguson, we're being unfairly treated - and that the department has a long history of facing accusations of unfair practices surrounding race. I believe there's been lawsuits, but I could be mistaken on that last part.

Whether this young kid was shot because he was  black, I don't know. I haven't ever once commented on that. I have only discussed the reaction to those shootings, and tried to explain why that response is as strong as it is. You may not think race is a factor, it may not be a factor, but clearly thousands of people do. Can you explain to me why it is black people are far more likely to be pullled over and arrested for the same crimes as whites? Why it is that blacks use drugs at about the same levels as whites, but are far, far more likely to be in jail for it? I guess these historical trends and problems are just coincidence, and have nothing to do with race? Any rational debate about these events that are going on in Fergusson has to look at and examine the fact that blacks are unfairly targetted and incarcerated for the same crimes as whites. It's why there's tense relationships between black communities and cops. It's why a young black man might try to break away from the police, go for his gun, and get shot in the process (if that's indeed what happened). It's why a large community of black persons feel as if the police are not protecting them. It's why so many black people and black families are torn apart, can't get a job, and turn to the vicious cycle of crime.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf
http://www.drugpolicy.org/docUploads/NewJimCrowFactSheet.pdf

Just a small sampling.

It's frankly laughable to me that you consider what I said to be race-baiting. Do you even know what the term means? How could I be clouding logic and reason by pointing to statistics and history? I'm doing the exact opposite of race-baiting, because I'm not using false facts or seeking to cloud the logic of the situation. I'm trying to clarify the argument to what the problem really is.

If what I've talked about is off-topic or not "kosher" for debate on this topic, then frankly, I see no reason to actually have the debate or participate in this forum. So just ban me, and stop with this nonsense of yours where you warn me for something ridiculous. I would actually gain some respect for you, because if there's one thing I really hate, it's insincerity. So ban me because you don't like me, not because of some obviously ridiculous claim that I'm off-topic or "race-baiting."


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2014, 02:46:52 PM »
Slightly off-topic: Scheavo, do you ever post anywhere here but in P/R? I am genuinely curious, as I never see your name in any threads except the ones here.  Just wondering.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2014, 02:50:34 PM »
I peruse from time to time, but never really feel like I have anything to add or say.

Online antigoon

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2014, 03:08:42 PM »
Hate to be a drive by poster in this thread, but I agree with Scheavo that it's naive and pointless to talk about this incident without talking about racism and systems of racism.

This isn't a random, isolated incident.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2014, 06:04:44 AM »
I agree.  Race relations are at the very heart of this problem in this community.  And in many other communities across America.

But it's a systemic problem, so there is no easy solution.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2014, 08:21:26 AM »
Scheavo, discussing racism is clearly in-bounds.  Picking fights with people who disagree with you and indirectly accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being racist is not.  It's not a question of whether I like or dislike you.  One type of conduct is fine; the other is not.  And if you have problems with a moderation decision, the thread is not the place to handle it.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2014, 09:00:54 AM »
Scheavo, discussing racism is clearly in-bounds.  Picking fights with people who disagree with you and indirectly accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being racist is not.  It's not a question of whether I like or dislike you.  One type of conduct is fine; the other is not.  And if you have problems with a moderation decision, the thread is not the place to handle it.

If I may; I suspect Sheavo is suggesting the "latent" racism of American culture which is oftentimes ignored and easily dismissed.  For example, he pointed out Stadler's comment about 250 years of a system working; where clearly it doesn't for one race of people.  Is Stadler a direct racist; I don't see that at all, but its a "latent" mentality that exists in the majority mindset that is easily skirted around.  Its the same phenomena when a woman grabs her purse when walking past a black man.  Its these latent behaviors that the black community is so angry about.


Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2014, 09:50:05 AM »
Brown and the 'key' witness named as suspects in strong arm robbery that took place minutes before the confrontation with the officer who responded to the call.



Couple pics of the 'gentle giant'....









In my view the pics and the account of the clerks who were robbed only give more credibilty to the officers account that Brown and his associate physically confronted him when questioned/detained.

Link to story on StL today:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-a-suspect-in-robbery-of-cigars-from-store/article_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2014, 10:07:27 AM »
It looks like the other two dudes are on the short side, but he's a big-ass boy regardless.

Has nothing to do with the shooting, though. Even if he did assault Johnny, if (and I can't stress that "if" strongly enough) he was running away you can't shoot him. He has to pose an immediate threat to yourself or others (as you're no doubt aware from your training). If he had a gun on him, then you could make a sound argument, but you'd have a hard time demonstrating that his size and demeanor made him such a threat that he had to be stopped immediately.
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