Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 51372 times)

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #175 on: August 18, 2014, 09:59:22 AM »
Chino, Dorian Johnson appears to have given a false statement, and given that he was once charged with that, it makes sense now why he was avoiding talking to the police and going to the media with his fabricated story; he didn't want to get charged again with lying to the police.  In that regard, he is a real piece of shit, as he basically fanned the flames and then poured gasoline on them with his fake story.  Pretty disgusting.

That says a lot about the guy's intelligence. "I've got an idea. I am going to go on national TV and lie through my teeth about the biggest story in country. No one is ever going to find out".

Actually Johnson admitted to and was convicted of giving a false identity. Anyway, as the facts of the case make their way out.....the only version of the account that is supported by the facts is the account provided by the police officers.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #176 on: August 18, 2014, 10:27:36 AM »
"He doubled back" and "But he kept coming towards him"doesn't mean Brown was running at him in a threatening manner.

You're absolutely correct....it doesn't mean that. I happen to think it does because of the fact that is what the officer said he did and the fact that 10 minutes earlier he used the same type of intimidating move on the store owner he just robbed. But sure I can agree that "doubled back" could mean something different.

He did that against an unarmed, non-police officer. Different context entirely.

You could also say the fact that Brown did that earlier made him more submissive. He could've thought he was caught, and was giving up. Hell, if what the family is saying, he could've been thinking, "the fucking ONE TIME I do anything like this, and I get caught." It could also help explain how a gunshot wound came into his skull at the angles it did.


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It's certainly not proof against the contentions of numerous other eyewitnesses

That's exactly what this is....proof that a person who witnessed the entire event is recounting the same story that the police officer told and the opposite story of what other 'witnesses' have stated. This video was taken within minutes of that shooting and already the 'hands up' theme had begun to spread and the commentator rebuked that story by telling what he saw

Except you just said yourself it could mean something else! The problem is that you don't KNOW what the guy was saying. If he was saying what you THINK he was saying, it would be proof, but the contention isn't about the truth of what he said, it's about WHAT he said. Which, by the way, is what makes it hearsay evidence, Stadler.

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It's pretty hard for me to just throw away numerous eyewitnesses, who have been interviewed, including going on television, being public, talking to the DOJ and FBI and other numerous organizations - who most certainly will notice any inconsistency in Johnson story, if he is indeed lying as you imply, that's the great thing about a large record.

Exactly. The problem as I see it is that the entire 'hands up' version of the story is the version that has been latched onto by social media...by celebrities....it's the one being re-tweeted and face booked and having tee shirts made without even being verified as truth. So, when the truth does hit and is made public and if it is different than the now famous 'hands up' Brown was doing nothing wrong version.....you're going to get a level of disbelief and cries of even more racism if that happens.....even if it is the actual truth. Because just as the officers account of the incident is just his version....this whole 'hands up' Brown was assasinated at this point is just as suspicious as the officers account....only it's being treated as cannon.

I don't know what your exactly is referring to based upon what came after. And I don't see how what the media has done or is doing is really that relevant. Other people acting poorly doesn't justify you acting poorly. My position would be that the evidence and testimonies given should prompt a response that is entirely different then the one being given by the police.

The thing is, the levels of evidence being given for each side is lopsided. One side has overheard hearsay which doesn't actually say what you want it to say, and the testimony of someone who has something to gain by it. The other side has numerous people willing to be interviewed and give their story, including going to numerous agencies to do so. They are not even close to being on equal footing.

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I imagine in court, it wouldn't be allowed because it's hearsay. 


I have no idea what the law says about this type of video. He's a witness essentially giving a statement. If they identify that person I see an issue getting him to actually testify and say what he did on that tape. When he said that....it was fresh....he was being honest and as the article mentioned...he had nothing to gain. Now, it's a national story and his entire community is in an uproar. We all saw the huge graffiti "Snitches get Stitches" sprayed on the walls of the looted and burned down Quick Trip. There is no way this guy would ever admit that was him or enter that same statment into record despite what the video suggests is exactly what he saw. But if I were a lawyer defending that officer (if it came to that) I'd certainly do all I could to get it admissable because it verifies his account to the tee.

Except like I said above, it is a matter of verifying what was actually said in the overheard audio. If the audio was unambigious in it's story, if the person could be substantiated and questioned and back up your interpretation, it would be actual evidence and be admissable in court. But at this point, it is NOT and using at proof of your bias is fallacious.


Overall, I just don't understand this entire response. You admit at the beginning that it could mean something other than what you're saying, but then go on to ignore that admission and assume it does mean what you say it says.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:24:59 AM by Scheavo »

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #177 on: August 18, 2014, 10:33:24 AM »
It appears as if the story told by Dorian Johnson, the friend of the deceased and the supposed key witness, was a farce.  His story talked about how Brown was shot in the back, but the autopsy report shows that six bullets hit Brown, all of which were in the front.  In other words, he was not shot in the back once.

Just re-read Johnson version (though admittedly not all of his interviews, so fell free to point out an inconsistency if you find one), and the only problem with his story and the autopsy is a minor one that may yet be resolved. He says he was shot while running away once, then turned around. But it's very reasonable to ask if Johnson would actually KNOW if Brown was shot. They were running away, he hears a gunshot, he see's Brown turn around, and he imagines he was shot. It certainly doesn't invalidate the rest of his story. More importantly, the release I saw said he was shot "at least" six times, and that a few other wounds were still be investigated as to what they were, etc. I think one was on his arm, and at this point, it's entirely concievable it was a wound from a bullet that hit him from behind.

Again, not saying you're wrong, just that there isn't any good reason to support what you're saying is true.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #178 on: August 18, 2014, 10:47:28 AM »


If that's the real story, that 'key witness' is just as responsible for fanning these flames as the parents.

No argument from me on that.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #179 on: August 18, 2014, 10:53:35 AM »
"He doubled back" and "But he kept coming towards him"doesn't mean Brown was running at him in a threatening manner.

You're absolutely correct....it doesn't mean that. I happen to think it does because of the fact that is what the officer said he did and the fact that 10 minutes earlier he used the same type of intimidating move on the store owner he just robbed. But sure I can agree that "doubled back" could mean something different.

He did that against an unarmed, non-police officer. Different context entirely.

You could also say the fact that Brown did that earlier made him more submissive. He could've thought he was caught, and was giving up. Hell, if what the family is saying, he could've been thinking, "the fucking ONE TIME I do anything like this, and I get caught." It could also help explain how a gunshot wound came into his skull at the angles it did.


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It's certainly not proof against the contentions of numerous other eyewitnesses

That's exactly what this is....proof that a person who witnessed the entire event is recounting the same story that the police officer told and the opposite story of what other 'witnesses' have stated. This video was taken within minutes of that shooting and already the 'hands up' theme had begun to spread and the commentator rebuked that story by telling what he saw

Except you just said yourself it could mean something else! The problem is that you don't KNOW what the guy was saying. If he was saying what you THINK he was saying, it would be proof, but the contention isn't about the truth of what he said, it's about WHAT he said. Which, by the way, is what makes it hearsay evidence, Stadler.

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It's pretty hard for me to just throw away numerous eyewitnesses, who have been interviewed, including going on television, being public, talking to the DOJ and FBI and other numerous organizations - who most certainly will notice any inconsistency in Johnson story, if he is indeed lying as you imply, that's the great thing about a large record.

Exactly. The problem as I see it is that the entire 'hands up' version of the story is the version that has been latched onto by social media...by celebrities....it's the one being re-tweeted and face booked and having tee shirts made without even being verified as truth. So, when the truth does hit and is made public and if it is different than the now famous 'hands up' Brown was doing nothing wrong version.....you're going to get a level of disbelief and cries of even more racism if that happens.....even if it is the actual truth. Because just as the officers account of the incident is just his version....this whole 'hands up' Brown was assasinated at this point is just as suspicious as the officers account....only it's being treated as cannon.

I don't know what your exactly is referring to based upon what came after. And I don't see how what the media has done or is doing is really that relevant. Other people acting poorly doesn't justify you acting poorly. My position would be that the evidence and testimonies given should prompt a response that is entirely different then the one being given by the police.

The thing is, the levels of evidence being given for each side is lopsided. One side has overheard hearsay which doesn't actually say what you want it to say, and the testimony of someone who has something to gain by it. The other side has numerous people willing to be interviewed and give their story, including going to numerous agencies to do so. They are not even close to being on equal footing.


I imagine in court, it wouldn't be allowed because it's hearsay. 


I have no idea what the law says about this type of video. He's a witness essentially giving a statement. If they identify that person I see an issue getting him to actually testify and say what he did on that tape. When he said that....it was fresh....he was being honest and as the article mentioned...he had nothing to gain. Now, it's a national story and his entire community is in an uproar. We all saw the huge graffiti "Snitches get Stitches" sprayed on the walls of the looted and burned down Quick Trip. There is no way this guy would ever admit that was him or enter that same statment into record despite what the video suggests is exactly what he saw. But if I were a lawyer defending that officer (if it came to that) I'd certainly do all I could to get it admissable because it verifies his account to the tee.
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Except like I said above, it is a matter of verifying what was actually said in the overheard audio. If the audio was unambigious in it's story, if the person could be substantiated and questioned and back up your interpretation, it would be actual evidence and be admissable in court. But at this point, it is NOT and using at proof of your bias is fallacious.


Overall, I just don't understand this entire response. You admit at the beginning that it could mean something other than what you're saying, but then go on to ignore that admission and assume it does mean what you say it says.
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My 'exactly' meant that as the statements are collected and the real evidence is evaluated......the truth about this situation will come out. Just as my Police Officer neighbor stated....there will be no way to hide from the actual, physical evidence. If the cop shot this kid in cold blood in the back like the witnesses were saying...it'll come out. If he didn't (like the evidence is beginning to prove) it'll come out.

As for the rest of our debate or exchange....I really don't see the point in re-engaing it because there are two sides to this 'fence' and we are on opposite sides of it and neither is going to convince the other to jump over...so.....I don't see the point in debating arguing further about it. I'd rather just wait until the report is made public and then pick it up from there.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #180 on: August 18, 2014, 10:53:39 AM »
I think you're trying too hard and it's starting to become pretty obvious.   Now the family of the guy who was shot dead are at fault for the rioting that has taken place? 


More victim blaming.


Just stop.  You keep ascribing things to me that are not true.  It's not "victim blaming".   But it is saying that we are ALL accountable and we all have inputs and abilities to drive change.  NO ONE, not the police, not the victim's family, not the government, not the media, not the citizens, are either totally BLAMELESS or totally AT FAULT.   I'm just recognizing that fact.   

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #181 on: August 18, 2014, 11:23:54 AM »
And I totally understand that; but for it to be a reason that a BLACK person may not be able to vote (as opposed to any other demographic) it has to be exclusive to that demographic.  And none of those things are.  They are, frankly, all excuses, as proven by the two most recent Federal elections, where black turnout was equal to ('08) and exceeded ('12) white turnout.  What changed on that Tuesday? 

No they don't. They just have to effect black persons more so than other demographics, in no way does it have to be exclusive.

What changed on that Tuesday? What Tuesday was it? Was it the same day as the Presidential election, or was it a Tuesday in June in 2009? It is harder for black people to vote. We could argue the reasons for this, but survey and study after study shows that it IS harder for black people to vote. Given that, they could make the EXTRA effort to vote during the Presidential election, in '08 and '12, and it doesn't prove apathy for them to not be able to put in that extra effort into every other election.

On top of that, if it is a Presidential, more employers would probably be more leniant and letting of people voting. So during those elections, it's easier for them to vote. But for a local election, on a Tuesday in June, maybe they can't get the time off to go vote - or maybe just can't fenangle a busy schedule again to get the chance to go vote.


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Latent racism doesn't mean  there's a white guy going, "Fuck black people, they're inferior." It means the way in which the laws are enacted and enforced have unequal impact along racial lines. Plus, assuming the black guy would represent black people is absurd. He could advocate policies that most black people don't support or which arent helpful to most black people. Like Hermain Cain. Voting for the black guy because he's black is racist as well, so it does litttle to actually absolve the system of racism.

And more importantly, with the level of corruption in our system, just electing more blacks doesn't mean the system will change. It's not because of racism per say, more greed, but it helps perpetuate a system which unfairly harms blacks and other minorities moreso than whites.

I understand what "latent" means.  ;)  I get the statistics, and there is some correlation with what you are saying but in my experience (I am not an expert, but my experience is not minor; I am certified in Six Sigma, which is a statistics-based analytical tool) one of the main problems with statistical analysis is not proving correlation, but rather proving cause and effect.  I have no doubt that certain laws and certain schema tend to impact blacks differently than other demographics, but as I have tried to show (poorly) it is often just as much if not more impactful to certain economic classes. 

Except there isn't as much of a correlation with class as there is with race. Correlation does not prove causation, but non-correlation does prove non-causation. Poor whites are more likely to be in jail than rich whites, but poor whites are less likely to be in jail than poor blacks (there are more poor whites in America, but make up a minority of the Prison population). Our system is unfair to poor people, yes, but that does not invalidate or really overlap with the system also being unfair to minorities.

https://www.amacad.org/content/publications/pubContent.aspx?d=808

If it were a matter of education, why are whites who drop out of high school less likely to be in Prison? Why are Blacks who complete College more likely to be arrested? You see, you're making a hypothesis, that it's class, not race, but when examined, even by class and educational opportunities, we see race being far more important.

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And yes, of course electing the black candidate because he is black is "racist".  ANY time "skin color" is a factor EITHER way it is technically racist.   But, by way of example only, I point to Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter's comments on the night of the '08 election when interviewed following the concession by McCain:  "We have been waiting 400 years for this moment!!!!!!".   Uh, who's we and where did the "400 years" come from; at my count the US was 'in play' for about 232 years at that point...    please don't try and tell me there wasn't ONE VOTE for Obama that wasn't because he was black.  I don't claim that is the ONLY reason he was elected (it was, as I usually say, economics, even if the economics was totally wrong), but it IS a factor.   And if even those that WOULD vote for a black candidate because of his/her skin color don't bother, there is no answer for that other than APATHY, and not the kind that El Barto is talking about.

Red herring. Anything of value of responding to in this I'll respond to elsewhere.

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D'oh, I knew I should have just done the math, what I get for being lazy. Misread that table (obviously).

But why don't those people finish highschool? Often it's bad schools, which are underfunded and poorly staffed. That, and they see a broken system around them where getting their diploma won't do them as much good. They don't see the jobs or opportunities, and it creates a vicious cycle. More black people havinh a diploma wouldn't make more jobs are change the laws ofs scarcity, so in a sense, it's also pragmatically irrelevant as far as I can see.

Plus, like you said, you just undermined your own argument. More white people are poor. Therefor, more whites should be in prison for the same offenses if the main driving force were purely economic. Poor whites have just as much incentive to sell drugs as poor blacks, and there are a lot more of them. We should expect a higher percentage of blacks to be in prison than whites, given the statistics, but the prison population should reflect the society at large, and it doesn't, and by a long shot.

The problem was that I know the general facts, that more whites are poor than blacks, and so I was lazy in finding support for that when I needed it. Partly cause one-handed typing is aggravating, and the less I had to write, the more it pleased me.

Look no harm no foul on the mistake, we all make them, and it doesn't change your argument.  I get where you are coming from.   And yes I undermined my own argument, because the stats don't lie.   But, in a different sense, they do.   Read "Dumbing Down Our Schools" by Charles Sykes if you haven't already (by the way, to anyone here with a kid, you owe it to yourself and them to read that book.  You don't have to agree with all - or any - of it, but it will give you insight if you are looking to do the best you can by your kid re: education).  The single greatest PREDICTOR (remember, we're trying to dig deeper than just "correlation") of a student's success is not race, and it isn't even (directly) the economics of the schools (some of the poorest performing schools actually get some of the most funding, though admittedly sometimes there is a lag between the funding and the performance).   Grossly simplifying it is "what do the kids do over the summer".   Again, grossly simplifying, and this involved a multitude of factors, including economics, but generally speaking, the kids that stay "educationally focused" through the summer through reading lists, camps, etc. outperform those that "take the summer off". 

I'll just reference my above link. If this were as true as yo usay, then blacks who complete College wouldn't be more likely to be in prison, and whites who drop out of high school wouldn't be less likely to be in prison.

Citing under performing schools that are over funded doesn't prove that underfunding schools doesn't effect performance. Fallacious logic there.

I would have more questions for this "educationally focused" aspect, and availability of programs for poor blacks vs poor whites. Not saying it's because of race here, because I'd be willing to guess that a lot of poor whites live in rural communities, as opposed to urban communities, and that has a big effect. In fact, if you were to try and make this more geosocioeconomic argument, I'd be more amendable. But you're making an argument that it's about class and poverty, which just doesn't seem to play itself out in anything I've ever seen.

And I don't see where yo uaddressed the laws of scarcity. How does more black people graduating high school create more and higher paying jobs for them to get hired doing? Show me the job openings which can't be filled because of a lack of education, and specifically how blacks graduating high school would fill those job openings. Job creation is a different issue than education, and education does not create jobs. Jobs are created by factors outside of education. Which is proven by the education gap we DO have in America in regards to tradeskills and manual labor. If you can weld well, you can probably get yourself a six figure salary. Those job openings exist now, despite the fact that we don't have enough training for welding.

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You can't really point to "race" here, unless you are willing to risk saying that some races are "lazier" than others.   I don't mean that literally, it's meant a little facetiously, but I am serious to the extent we are getting close to the area that is an untenable argument for me:  I don't doubt that some families have "given up" for many of the reasons stated here, but I don't think it is unfair to say that if you make a choice - regardless of how attractive (or not) the other choices are - you have to own your consequences. 

Unless you experience the reality first hand,, live in a community of depression, and face systemic poverty. To lay it down to apathy is to show a complete lack of empathy. There have been psychological studies of poverty, and they show the negative effects of just being poor, caused by the stresses of being poor. If you're constantly worrying about where that next meal will come from, it draws a lot of your energy away from what could be time thinking about improving your lot.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/am-i-right/201210/the-effects-poverty-the-brain

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People thought that removing the militarized police response would just allow looters and rioters to have a free for all. But what we saw was nothing of the sort, and that the looting and rioting was a response to the police. I'm suggesting that generally disarming the police would be like this, that when we escalate the situation by arming the police, we create the very problem we use as justification for the escalation. Like when people say drugs should be illegal because of gang violence and such, even though there's gang violence because it's illegal.

Eh, I understand you now, but that is apples and oranges.   You are not dealing with a closed system in the latter case, and you have a TON of money involved which skews things dramatically.   And don't confuse a "militarized police response" with a general disarming.

Well its not as if I said no guns anywhere, just that there has to be a protocol followed in order to access them. Bank robbery happens? Armed robbery happens? Response can show up with guns. Police officer patrolling the streets, or responding to a sick child call (as in this case), no gun. If we look at this case specifically, a stun gun or tazer would've sufficed as protection.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #182 on: August 18, 2014, 11:30:39 AM »
Gary, that is sad, but true.  No matter what the truth ends up being, there will be people who will never believe it.   

Chino, Dorian Johnson appears to have given a false statement, and given that he was once charged with that, it makes sense now why he was avoiding talking to the police and going to the media with his fabricated story; he didn't want to get charged again with lying to the police.  In that regard, he is a real piece of shit, as he basically fanned the flames and then poured gasoline on them with his fake story.  Pretty disgusting.

1) If you just saw your friend shot by the police for doing nothing, you wouldn't feel too safe or secure giong to them to tell them your story

2) He talked to the DOJ and FBI, whilst not "the police," are certainly authority figures with police powers, and who can charge him with lying to them.

3) From the reporting I've heard, the police failed to contact him.

4) I like how it's apparently acceptable to call Johnson a "piece of shit" because of media reportings and incomplete truths and specific interpretations, but it's a "kangaroo court" for anyone to say the police officer should be held responsible because of media reporting, incomplete truths and specific interpretations.


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #183 on: August 18, 2014, 11:37:25 AM »
1) I am sure deep down he knows his friend wasn't shot for "doing nothing."

2) Fair enough.

3) you heard wrong.  I posted a link in this thread where the police said they wanted to talk to him and couldn't get a hold of him.

4) If he is found to have done enough in the wrong to warrant changes, absolutely, the officer should be held responsible and charges filed.  It remains to be seen. 

On the flip side, Johnson fanned the racial flames with what appears to be outright lies.  And he has a history of lying to the authorities, so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #184 on: August 18, 2014, 11:38:08 AM »
"He doubled back" and "But he kept coming towards him"doesn't mean Brown was running at him in a threatening manner. It could be slowly walking. It could be a shocked look at his face because he was just shot. It could be running at him in a threatening manner. Hell, it could be a verbal slip, and refer to the police offier. And the, "he like - be like-" could be Brown raising his hands in the air, it could be a lot of things. It's certainly not proof against the contentions of numerous other eyewitnesses, which corroborates each other. It's pretty hard for me to just throw away numerous eyewitnesses, who have been interviewed, including going on television, being public, talking to the DOJ and FBI and other numerous organizations - who most certainly will notice any inconsistency in Johnson story, if he is indeed lying as you imply, that's the great thing about a large record.

Look, I'm not saying the Police version isn't correct. I'll wait for a complete investigation on that matter. I'm arguing against the counter-argument being given. IJReview didn't interview the people being heard, they didn't get their story. They noticed some ambiguous dialogue, which would serve as a good place to start an investigation. I imagine in court, it wouldn't be allowed because it's hearsay.

It could be all those things; but those things are SPECULATION.  ANY counter-argument at this point is specious and meaningless.   Not one of those facts should be taken on their own and out of the context of the conversation.   As for the throwing away of "numerous eyewitnesses" while I don't think it is the likeliest outcome, the notion that "buzz" went through the crowd saying "he was executed" and that there are people testifying to things they didn't actually see, but just heard about, is not totally out of the question (how many people CLAIM to have been at Woodstock?) 

Um, it's speculation as to what the conversation was saying, either way. That was my point, and that's why it's hearsay.

A lot of people claiming to be at Woodstock, and not being at Woodstock, does not prove no one was at Woodstock. Just the same, a lot of people claiming to have seen the events, and not, does not prove those events did not happen. Completely fallacious logic.

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And I'm not sure what you mean by "hearsay"; if that person takes the stand, if they testify to the "consensus" version, then the prosecution can introduce the background tape - to the extent that they can prove it is the same person speaking of the same events - and use it to impeach the initial testimony.   It just can't be used in lieu of the real witness.

You did a good job of changing the premise before hand. We are talking about the video, and only the video, at this point. Using just the video as proof of anything is hearsay, per what I said. If the person who was talking comes forward, gives his version of the story, AND it agrees with your interpretation, then it is evidence.

But the problem is that the actualy content of what was said is up for question. It is ambiguous, and it doesn't make a definitive statement about what happened. As I pointed out, you can interpret it in another fashion, and as such, if the guy were to take the stand, and disagreed with your interpretation of what was said, this does not amount to proof that he was telling the truth then and is lying now. It more reasonably means that the original video and overheard conversation wasn't saying what you thought it meant, because you lacked the complete information.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #185 on: August 18, 2014, 11:40:29 AM »
The autopsy sketch was interesting. Of the six shots, 5 were at worst superficial. The sixth shot was certainly fatal, but I'm not even sure that would have shut him off. People keep using the number of rounds as an indictment, and really it doesn't mean much. Either the shooting was justified or not, and the number of shots doesn't factor in.

Also, the way the private autopsy is being reported is a bit questionable. The lawyer made a point of saying that the final headshot looked like the cop was standing over him. They're in no position to determine that yet, and it's just more incitement as far as I'm concerned.


Scheavo: If I'm wrong then so be it, but you seem awfully keen to believe Johnson's story. Hell, I've stated numerous times in this thread that I think cops are professional liars, but even I tend to find Johnny's account to be a bit more credible than Johnson's. Why is his word more valid than anybody else's?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #186 on: August 18, 2014, 11:44:04 AM »
1) I am sure deep down he knows his friend wasn't shot for "doing nothing."

Based upon what? I already pointed out how the autopsy results released thus far doesn't say anything definitive. The corronor I saw went out of his way to make this point clear. At this point, the results don't back up either story, disprove either story, and definitly doesn't make Johnson a liar. You're making a huge assumption here.

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3) you heard wrong.  I posted a link in this thread where the police said they wanted to talk to him and couldn't get a hold of him.

Was he already talking to the DOJ and FBI at this point?

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4) If he is found to have done enough in the wrong to warrant changes, absolutely, the officer should be held responsible and charges filed.  It remains to be seen. 

The officer claims a struggle occured. From what I heard, there is no indication on Brown that a struggle occurred. Does this make the Officer a liar?

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On the flip side, Johnson fanned the racial flames with what appears to be outright lies.  And he has a history of lying to the authorities, so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

Only if you want to make a rash judgement. You are now assuming he is lying, instead of just being wrong, without proof or any real good reason.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #187 on: August 18, 2014, 11:44:54 AM »
The final headshot appears to be a classic case of the victim keeling over from the shots he had already taken, hence him being slumped over and the top of his head facing the cop, and the final shot then being delivered.  It's easy to say, "Why did he have to shoot him one more time and kill him?", but keep in mind that as we pointed out, in those cases, you are basically spraying the threat with a series of bullets to stop the threat and just because someone is slowed down and keeling over while reeling from the shots they have already taken doesn't mean they are not still a threat.  It seems awful to put it that way, and it's still utterly tragic that it happened, but that sounds like what probably happened. 

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #188 on: August 18, 2014, 11:47:57 AM »
Chino, Dorian Johnson appears to have given a false statement, and given that he was once charged with that, it makes sense now why he was avoiding talking to the police and going to the media with his fabricated story; he didn't want to get charged again with lying to the police.  In that regard, he is a real piece of shit, as he basically fanned the flames and then poured gasoline on them with his fake story.  Pretty disgusting.

That says a lot about the guy's intelligence. "I've got an idea. I am going to go on national TV and lie through my teeth about the biggest story in country. No one is ever going to find out".

Actually Johnson admitted to and was convicted of giving a false identity. Anyway, as the facts of the case make their way out.....the only version of the account that is supported by the facts is the account provided by the police officers.


Except, that's not true.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2014, 11:52:05 AM »
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One wound to his arm was consistent with a witness statement that Brown was walking away and appeared to jerk, as if shot, Parcells said. The wounds to his arm could have also have occurred while he had his hands up, possibly in a defensive posture, Parcells said.


One of the bullets entered the back of his head and came out through his eye, another -- likely the fatal wound, Baden said -- struck Brown on the top of his head and caused irreparable damage to his brain.


Family attorney Benjamin Crump said Brown probably would have been either kneeling or bending forward when he was struck with those bullets.
Brown had abrasions on his face consistent with falling onto the ground, Baden said.


He cautioned that he needs access to autopsy results, including tests on Brown's clothes and X-rays, before making some conclusions.
But Crump said what it already revealed offered more than "ample" evidence to support Wilson's arrest.


"What does this autopsy say? That the witness accounts were true, that he was shot multiple times," Crump told reporters.




Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #190 on: August 18, 2014, 11:56:18 AM »
Also, the way the private autopsy is being reported is a bit questionable. The lawyer made a point of saying that the final headshot looked like the cop was standing over him. They're in no position to determine that yet, and it's just more incitement as far as I'm concerned.

While I agree the lawyers response is pretty bad, I do think that the bullet trajectory through his skull does demand some explanation. He was a tall man (who tall was the officer? I haven't seen that information), so that trajectory requires some explanation. As you point out, the shots prior to that were survivable and probably nothing to really stop him, so then why was his head lowered? A lowered head is a submissive response. It's reasonable to think that it's part of that raising his hands in the air per eyewitness accounts. It's also reasonable to think Brown was falling to the ground out of shock and got hit when the cop was unloading his round. Or, I'd say much less likely, if Brown had his head lowered and was bull-rushing the officer. But that's just becuase I don't see why you would lower your head that far away.

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Scheavo: If I'm wrong then so be it, but you seem awfully keen to believe Johnson's story. Hell, I've stated numerous times in this thread that I think cops are professional liars, but even I tend to find Johnny's account to be a bit more credible than Johnson's. Why is his word more valid than anybody else's?

It's not. I just don't see any reason to discount it given the evidence presented. I think the only reason I seem awfully keen to believe his story is becuase I'm arguing against people who are awfully keen on discounting his story, and didn't believe it prior to any "evidence" to discount it.

I'm taking a pretty damn neutral stance on the actual shooting. Johnson having some inaccuracies in his story doesn't make him a liar, it makes him human.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #191 on: August 18, 2014, 12:01:35 PM »
The final headshot appears to be a classic case of the victim keeling over from the shots he had already taken, hence him being slumped over and the top of his head facing the cop, and the final shot then being delivered.  It's easy to say, "Why did he have to shoot him one more time and kill him?", but keep in mind that as we pointed out, in those cases, you are basically spraying the threat with a series of bullets to stop the threat and just because someone is slowed down and keeling over while reeling from the shots they have already taken doesn't mean they are not still a threat.  It seems awful to put it that way, and it's still utterly tragic that it happened, but that sounds like what probably happened.

I'm not sure if that is a response to me, but I point out that there isn't a solid reaosn to think that Brown would be keeling over. I admit it's possible (as I did in my above post), but it's certainly not proven or given at this point. Like I said, imagine the opposite side is true, Brown has been a good kid, hasn't gotten in trouble. He does this strong armed robbery, then a police officer comes after him, and Brown thinks maybe he's had. He freaks, cause he's a black guy in Fergusson with a history of racism and problems (as already presented in this forum), and starts to run. He get's shot at, decides he should give up, turns around, raises his hands, and lowers his head submissively because he's devastated and remorseful for what he's just done.

Look, all I'm asking and trying to do is for you to use your imagination to see how the other side could be telling the truth, and for that reason, to take a neutral stance on this until more actual information comes out.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #192 on: August 18, 2014, 12:06:11 PM »
What changed on that Tuesday? What Tuesday was it? Was it the same day as the Presidential election, or was it a Tuesday in June in 2009? It is harder for black people to vote. We could argue the reasons for this, but survey and study after study shows that it IS harder for black people to vote. Given that, they could make the EXTRA effort to vote during the Presidential election, in '08 and '12, and it doesn't prove apathy for them to not be able to put in that extra effort into every other election.

On top of that, if it is a Presidential, more employers would probably be more leniant and letting of people voting. So during those elections, it's easier for them to vote. But for a local election, on a Tuesday in June, maybe they can't get the time off to go vote - or maybe just can't fenangle a busy schedule again to get the chance to go vote.

I'm sorry, you're not making sense.  Or perhaps I am just not understanding.   I don't know what a "Tuesday in June" refers to.   All I know, is the PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION in NOVEMBER OF 2008 and the PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION in NOVEMBER OF 2012, more blacks than whites found the initiative to get out and vote. 

I can't for the life of me understand why somehow the planets aligned in that election, but not others.   I don't understand how the planets aligned in - I think it was NOVEMBER of 1998 - when virtually 100% of blacks in Atlanta voted for Bill Campbell for Mayor.   What makes those anomalies?   I sometimes find it inconvenient or downright hard to get out and vote, too, and I make my choice:  do I want to put in the effort or not?   Usually I do, because I believe in the system.   But whether I do or not IS MY CHOICE, and certainly, under the strict definition of the word, if I opt to NOT go to the polls it is a form of apathy.   The relative threshold is irrelevant. 


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Except there isn't as much of a correlation with class as there is with race. Correlation does not prove causation, but non-correlation does prove non-causation. Poor whites are more likely to be in jail than rich whites, but poor whites are less likely to be in jail than poor blacks (there are more poor whites in America, but make up a minority of the Prison population). Our system is unfair to poor people, yes, but that does not invalidate or really overlap with the system also being unfair to minorities.

https://www.amacad.org/content/publications/pubContent.aspx?d=808

If it were a matter of education, why are whites who drop out of high school less likely to be in Prison? Why are Blacks who complete College more likely to be arrested? You see, you're making a hypothesis, that it's class, not race, but when examined, even by class and educational opportunities, we see race being far more important.

But you're not answering the question, and I mean that nicely.  Put it another way:  is all "poor" equal?  In other words, are the "black poor" the same as the "white poor"?   I do know that unemployment rates for blacks is higher than whites (almost double) which suggests a racial component, until you look at the fact that blacks are the second LOWEST participants in the labor pool.   Meaning, they aren't even putting themselves out there as candidates for the positions!   Even if you have little hope of success, at what point does one have to take ownership of the idea that they have made a conscious decision to stop trying?

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, I am saying that there are a whole lot of other questions that have to be answered - some of them hard questions, and some of them unpopular questions - before either one of us can be deemed "right". 

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I'll just reference my above link. If this were as true as yo usay, then blacks who complete College wouldn't be more likely to be in prison, and whites who drop out of high school wouldn't be less likely to be in prison.

I'm not following?  More or less likely than who?

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Citing under performing schools that are over funded doesn't prove that underfunding schools doesn't effect performance. Fallacious logic there.

That wasn't the statement.  It's back to "correlation" versus "cause and effect".  The only conclusion that one could draw (and I didn't even do that) is that "funding" doesn't directly improve performance.  Everything else is up for further analysis.

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I would have more questions for this "educationally focused" aspect, and availability of programs for poor blacks vs poor whites. Not saying it's because of race here, because I'd be willing to guess that a lot of poor whites live in rural communities, as opposed to urban communities, and that has a big effect. In fact, if you were to try and make this more geosocioeconomic argument, I'd be more amendable. But you're making an argument that it's about class and poverty, which just doesn't seem to play itself out in anything I've ever seen.

Where do you live, if I may ask?    I try very hard not to use anecdotal or empirical information in these posts, except as color or as sidebar.  But where I am now (in Connecticut, where I was born and raised), where I was in Charlotte, and in Atlanta, the reality supports what I am saying.  The only place I've lived which doesn't fit nicely in this is Philadelphia, and I'm still trying to figure out why.   There is a LOT of racism in Philly, of the most insidious kind, but having said that, many prominent civic leaders are black and there is a small black subcommunity that is economically prosperous. 

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And I don't see where yo uaddressed the laws of scarcity. How does more black people graduating high school create more and higher paying jobs for them to get hired doing? Show me the job openings which can't be filled because of a lack of education, and specifically how blacks graduating high school would fill those job openings. Job creation is a different issue than education, and education does not create jobs. Jobs are created by factors outside of education. Which is proven by the education gap we DO have in America in regards to tradeskills and manual labor. If you can weld well, you can probably get yourself a six figure salary. Those job openings exist now, despite the fact that we don't have enough training for welding.


Those are all fair points, but if I am understanding you correctly, they assume the conclusion.   Meaning, I can't answer what would happen if there were 100 candidates, exactly equal in training and qualifications, going for one job.  Presumably, that would include 13 black candidates and 63 white ones.  Clearly, if the white wins that job more than 63% of the time, there is a problem.    But we don't know that.  What we do know is that based on education - which is at least SOMEWHAT tied to choice.  SOMEWHAT - the 100-person candidate pool is more like 70 (or more) white and 6 (or less) black.   So no wonder the outcomes are skewed.
 
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Unless you experience the reality first hand,, live in a community of depression, and face systemic poverty. To lay it down to apathy is to show a complete lack of empathy. There have been psychological studies of poverty, and they show the negative effects of just being poor, caused by the stresses of being poor. If you're constantly worrying about where that next meal will come from, it draws a lot of your energy away from what could be time thinking about improving your lot.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/am-i-right/201210/the-effects-poverty-the-brain


First, don't play that card.    We're talking concepts here; my "empathy" has nothing to do with it, and you have no idea who's shoes I've walked in.  I purposefully leave out "empathy" in these discussions, because "empathy" more often than not leads to bad decisions.   The right answer is the answer that leads to the best outcome; not the most emotionally satisfying outcome.    I would argue - strongly - that many of things we have to fix here are in place BECAUSE of empathy.   I think someone like El Barto will disagree with me, but I strongly believe that the current drugs laws are largely what they are because of empathetic reasons (most people don't know or give a shit about the monetization aspect of the war on drugs; they don't want it legal because they fear losing a subset of a generation to abuse).   

If anything, my argument is based strongly in empathy, because I am seeking to dig as deep as possible to get the right answer.    Don't mistake my position here to be "let them eat cake"; just the opposite.  I say let's do the things that are necessary to reward those that DO break the cycle, let's remove some of the obstacles where we can to allow more people (of all races) to break the cycle, and make all of us better.   I don't mean this in the clichéd "trickle down economics" way, but in terms of engaging all people in our society, a rising tide raises all boats. 

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Well its not as if I said no guns anywhere, just that there has to be a protocol followed in order to access them. Bank robbery happens? Armed robbery happens? Response can show up with guns. Police officer patrolling the streets, or responding to a sick child call (as in this case), no gun. If we look at this case specifically, a stun gun or tazer would've sufficed as protection.

Not a concept I've heard before.  Interesting thought.   
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 12:13:54 PM by Stadler »

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #193 on: August 18, 2014, 12:06:41 PM »
I think you're trying too hard and it's starting to become pretty obvious.   Now the family of the guy who was shot dead are at fault for the rioting that has taken place? 


More victim blaming.


Just stop.  You keep ascribing things to me that are not true.  It's not "victim blaming".   But it is saying that we are ALL accountable and we all have inputs and abilities to drive change.  NO ONE, not the police, not the victim's family, not the government, not the media, not the citizens, are either totally BLAMELESS or totally AT FAULT.   I'm just recognizing that fact.


No, actually, that's NOT what you're doing.  At least, that's now how it reads to me.


I'm not going to stop posting my opinion of what I'm reading here.  This is the impression you are giving me.  You start a post with "I know this won't be popular, but..." and then you unload some junk like you just did - blaming a grieving family who just lost their kid - because they're pissed off and sick and tired of being treated like second class citizens and now the very system that treats them that way has just put their kid in this grave, probably completely unnecessarily.  I'm sorry, but you're going to have to excuse my outrage at what is looking more and more like a straight up fucking execution.  And I see a few people doing some pretty incredible rhetorical gesticulation here trying to rationalize why it's probably OK that this cop just fucking waxed this kids ass right there on the street in broad daylight.  Yeah, I'm outraged by it.  And I'm kinda disgusted, frankly, with all of the verbal gymnastics going on all over the place looking for a way to excuse what this cop did.


 

Edit: corrected some spelling mistakes
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:37:35 AM by kirksnosehair »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #194 on: August 18, 2014, 12:07:35 PM »


4) I like how it's apparently acceptable to call Johnson a "piece of shit" because of media reportings and incomplete truths and specific interpretations, but it's a "kangaroo court" for anyone to say the police officer should be held responsible because of media reporting, incomplete truths and specific interpretations.

Can you at least see how BOTH are not helping, and how BOTH feed the inevitable downward spiral?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #195 on: August 18, 2014, 12:21:38 PM »

Um, it's speculation as to what the conversation was saying, either way. That was my point, and that's why it's hearsay.

No, that's not what makes it 'hearsay'.  It's hearsay when it is an out-of-court statement being used (whether it is good proof or not) to prove the issue at hand.   If a prosecutor introduced that to PROVE that Brown was not running away, it would be excluded as "hearsay", unless an exception could be found (i.e. that the witness was not available).
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A lot of people claiming to be at Woodstock, and not being at Woodstock, does not prove no one was at Woodstock. Just the same, a lot of people claiming to have seen the events, and not, does not prove those events did not happen. Completely fallacious logic.

Ugh.  You're killing me.  I'm not saying that Woodstock - or the events - didn't happen.  I'm saying that we have to evaluate each person individually, and that there are 10 people saying the same thing DOESN"T IN AND OF ITSELF mean that the event happened.  You have to evaluate the veracity of each and every one of the 10. 

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You did a good job of changing the premise before hand. We are talking about the video, and only the video, at this point. Using just the video as proof of anything is hearsay, per what I said. If the person who was talking comes forward, gives his version of the story, AND it agrees with your interpretation, then it is evidence.

NOT of anything; it CAN be used to impeach a witness without being hearsay.  it can also be used as evidence that there are other interpretations of what went down.  What it CAN'T be used for is to prove that Brown was or was not running away when shot.

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But the problem is that the actualy content of what was said is up for question. It is ambiguous, and it doesn't make a definitive statement about what happened. As I pointed out, you can interpret it in another fashion, and as such, if the guy were to take the stand, and disagreed with your interpretation of what was said, this does not amount to proof that he was telling the truth then and is lying now. It more reasonably means that the original video and overheard conversation wasn't saying what you thought it meant, because you lacked the complete information.

The ambiguity of the statement does not matter in the context of "hearsay".  If it gets admitted, whether it is ambiguous or not, or whether it proves what it is intended to prove is a matter of fact for the jury.    Your last statement is not accurate; not because it isn't reasonable (a juror could come up with that interpretation) but because it isn't a matter of law.  It is subject to the jury's interpretation.  I as a juror am free to draw whatever conclusion I want to the evidence once it is admitted.

Do you see the difference? 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #196 on: August 18, 2014, 12:23:41 PM »
The autopsy sketch was interesting. Of the six shots, 5 were at worst superficial. The sixth shot was certainly fatal, but I'm not even sure that would have shut him off. People keep using the number of rounds as an indictment, and really it doesn't mean much. Either the shooting was justified or not, and the number of shots doesn't factor in.

Also, the way the private autopsy is being reported is a bit questionable. The lawyer made a point of saying that the final headshot looked like the cop was standing over him. They're in no position to determine that yet, and it's just more incitement as far as I'm concerned.


Scheavo: If I'm wrong then so be it, but you seem awfully keen to believe Johnson's story. Hell, I've stated numerous times in this thread that I think cops are professional liars, but even I tend to find Johnny's account to be a bit more credible than Johnson's. Why is his word more valid than anybody else's?

Um, that attorney is way out of line; Dr. Michael Baden, who performed the autopsy (and is about as highly regarded a coroner as you can find) said the headshot showed his head was bowed, BUT he took great pains to indicate that it was INCONCLUSIVE as to why the head was bowed, and could have easily been either because he was charging or he was submitting.   


Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #197 on: August 18, 2014, 12:30:04 PM »
While I agree the lawyers response is pretty bad, I do think that the bullet trajectory through his skull does demand some explanation. He was a tall man (who tall was the officer? I haven't seen that information), so that trajectory requires some explanation. As you point out, the shots prior to that were survivable and probably nothing to really stop him, so then why was his head lowered? A lowered head is a submissive response. It's reasonable to think that it's part of that raising his hands in the air per eyewitness accounts. It's also reasonable to think Brown was falling to the ground out of shock and got hit when the cop was unloading his round. Or, I'd say much less likely, if Brown had his head lowered and was bull-rushing the officer. But that's just becuase I don't see why you would lower your head that far away.

See, here's where you lose me.  You say something that is completely factual and sustainable  - "the bullet trajectory through his skull does demand some explanation", then ruin it with something subjective, opinionated, and supportive of what appears to be a pre-determined conclusion - "a lowered head is a submissive response".    Ever see a defensive back in football lower his head to annihilate a receiver crossing the flat?   

You're not Michael Brown.  You don't know whether he was enraged, on steroids, on other mind-altering drugs or cold sober.   You don't know if he got the bright idea to lower his head to reduce his profile.  You don't know if he was off balance from taking a prior gunshot.   

Why do we even have to speculate at this point?    Let the professionals do their job.  Michael Baden, while often being an expert for hire, is about as credible an investigator as they come.  HE refused to speculate, so why should we? 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 12:39:49 PM by Stadler »

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #198 on: August 18, 2014, 12:31:32 PM »
Uh, you kind of pretty much ignored where Scheavo said that it was possible that maybe he did lower his head in an attempt to bull rush the officer, although evidence points away from that, so uh Scheavo's pretty level headed.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #199 on: August 18, 2014, 12:38:54 PM »
I think you're trying too hard and it's starting to become pretty obvious.   Now the family of the guy who was shot dead are at fault for the rioting that has taken place? 


More victim blaming.


Just stop.  You keep ascribing things to me that are not true.  It's not "victim blaming".   But it is saying that we are ALL accountable and we all have inputs and abilities to drive change.  NO ONE, not the police, not the victim's family, not the government, not the media, not the citizens, are either totally BLAMELESS or totally AT FAULT.   I'm just recognizing that fact.


No, actually, that's NOT what you're doing.  At least, that's now how it reads to me.


I'm not going to stop posting my opinion of what I'm reading here.  This is the impression you are giving me.  You start a post with "I know this won't be popular, but..." and then you unload some junk like you just did - blaming a grieving family who just lost their kid - because they're pissed off and sick and tired of being treated like second class citizens and now the very system that treats them that way has just put their kid in this grave, probably completely necessarily.  I'm sorry, but you're going to have to excuse my outrage at what is looking more and more like a straight up fucking execution.  And I see a few people doing some pretty incredible rhetorical gesticulation here trying to rationalize why it's probably OK that this cop just fucking waxed this kids ass right there on the street in broad daylight.  Yeah, I'm outraged by it.  And I'm kinda disgusted, frankly, with all of the verbal gymnastics going on all over the place looking for a way to excuse what this cop did.

Nice of you to offer your opinion on what I am thinking.   I don't share your outrage and disgust, but I understand it.   What I don't understand is how that justifies you wrongly interpreting what I wrote.    There are far more biased opinions in this thread than mine - which simply put is "let's let the facts speak for themselves".   If the cop was wrong, he was wrong.  He should face punishment for what he did, and no argument from me.  That doesn't justify forming an opinion and picking the facts that fit and castigating the facts that don't.  It also doesn't justify lying to the press and instigating racial unrest.   Even if you can excuse the family because of their grief (I don't, but I see your point) it is up to the attorney to provide a cool, unemotional head and help in decisions like this.  That's what attorney's are for.   Rather than doing that, he's doing his own Al Sharpton imitation and fanning the fires himself.  Whatever it is that the family is going through, it doesn't justify lying to and manipulating the press.   


Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #200 on: August 18, 2014, 12:43:05 PM »
Uh, you kind of pretty much ignored where Scheavo said that it was possible that maybe he did lower his head in an attempt to bull rush the officer, although evidence points away from that, so uh Scheavo's pretty level headed.

Haha, pun intended?

In the post I read, he discounted that almost immediately (in the next sentence).  But having said that in the following post (which I hadn't read when I posted my reply) you're right he did sort of back off on that.

And in fairness, in that last post, he is saying exactly what I am saying:  let's wait until the evidence speaks.   I frankly think there will be bits of truth in both sides.  These things are usually not that cut and dry. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #201 on: August 18, 2014, 12:56:13 PM »
The final headshot appears to be a classic case of the victim keeling over from the shots he had already taken, hence him being slumped over and the top of his head facing the cop, and the final shot then being delivered.  It's easy to say, "Why did he have to shoot him one more time and kill him?", but keep in mind that as we pointed out, in those cases, you are basically spraying the threat with a series of bullets to stop the threat and just because someone is slowed down and keeling over while reeling from the shots they have already taken doesn't mean they are not still a threat.  It seems awful to put it that way, and it's still utterly tragic that it happened, but that sounds like what probably happened.

I'm not sure if that is a response to me,

It was to Barto.  You replied right before I did, so my post was two after his (and I often don't use the quote system if my post follows the one I am replying to).

   And I'm kinda disgusted, frankly, with all of the verbal gymnastics going on all over the place looking for a way to excuse what this cop did.

We still don't know what exactly occurred, but it sure sounds like you are ready to convict him based on speculation and assumptions.

Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #202 on: August 18, 2014, 12:58:07 PM »
I blame the police department by default for not have vest and/or dash cams. There are several towns in CT where the police have cams in their vests that run the duration of their shift. If we can mandate that ever vehicle on American roads must have a back up camera, I think it'd be rather easy to make happen with law enforcement.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 01:05:37 PM by Chino »

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #203 on: August 18, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »

   And I'm kinda disgusted, frankly, with all of the verbal gymnastics going on all over the place looking for a way to excuse what this cop did.

Until proven otherwise all the police officer did was his job. I'm probably just as disgusted at the fact that social and news media have cannonized one side of the account as 'fact' and made sure that side of the story is the only one that 'counts'. So, when and if this all flushes out in the end and it's proven that this officers account of the incident is indeed what went down and he is not charged with anything I think the ensuing rioting will make the Rodney King riots look like kindergarten recess. And that will be the fault of many institutions....first and foremost the manner in which the reportage of information of this tradjedy.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #204 on: August 18, 2014, 01:34:31 PM »
Until proven otherwise all the police officer did was his job. I'm probably just as disgusted at the fact that social and news media have cannonized one side of the account as 'fact' and made sure that side of the story is the only one that 'counts'. So, when and if this all flushes out in the end and it's proven that this officers account of the incident is indeed what went down and he is not charged with anything I think the ensuing rioting will make the Rodney King riots look like kindergarten recess. And that will be the fault of many institutions....first and foremost the manner in which the reportage of information of this tradjedy.
Nah, this kind of needs to work the other way. Like I posted some pages ago, cop gets held to a higher standard. Whether or not the dead guy was a scumbag, he was at the time of the encounter a citizen of this country which makes him both innocent and Johnny's responsibility to protect. I sort of think that the facts will favor the cop in this, and I certainly agree with you that the media, the parents, the buddy, the attorney, and the City of Ferguson have all combined to make this an epic clusterfuck which will likely boil over far worse than it already has, but at the point the benefit of the doubt goes to the stiff.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #205 on: August 18, 2014, 01:54:16 PM »
Until proven otherwise all the police officer did was his job. I'm probably just as disgusted at the fact that social and news media have cannonized one side of the account as 'fact' and made sure that side of the story is the only one that 'counts'. So, when and if this all flushes out in the end and it's proven that this officers account of the incident is indeed what went down and he is not charged with anything I think the ensuing rioting will make the Rodney King riots look like kindergarten recess. And that will be the fault of many institutions....first and foremost the manner in which the reportage of information of this tradjedy.
Nah, this kind of needs to work the other way. Like I posted some pages ago, cop gets held to a higher standard. Whether or not the dead guy was a scumbag, he was at the time of the encounter a citizen of this country which makes him both innocent and Johnny's responsibility to protect. I sort of think that the facts will favor the cop in this, and I certainly agree with you that the media, the parents, the buddy, the attorney, and the City of Ferguson have all combined to make this an epic clusterfuck which will likely boil over far worse than it already has, but at the point the benefit of the doubt goes to the stiff.

I understand your point here....and the officer should be held at a higher standard. One thing that is not discussed is the complete lack of respect for authority when it came to the initial stop/arrest. We can debate for countless pages on 'why' the black community should have the right to be suspicious of the police....but the fact remains that Brown after being detained by the officer Brown and Johnson chose to run off from custody after what the officer says there was a scuffle and wrangling for his weapon. They ran off....then Brown turns back at him at which that point he's fired upon. Why take off running if you've nothing to hide or be worried about? But we know that Brown did have something to hide being that he and Johson robbed a store 10 minutes earlier.

That officer was out there protecting the community when he stopped these guys to question them. He was doing his job. Unless this officer is just some cold blooded killer who felt like shooting a man that day I don't see how anyone can 'prove' he did what he did out of nothing other than protecting himself from a man who had been hit multiple times with bullets and continued to come towards him, of which that guy is a pretty big fella and the officer has no idea 'why' the bullets aren't affecting him...oh and, he has maybe 5 seconds to figure out what to do. I've read in an article that the distance was an estimated 35 foot....that isn't really that far considering an average person can cover 10 foot (when running) in less than 2 seconds. Yes this shooting is a horrific tradjedy but it's far from the 'assasination' that it's been made out to be.

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #206 on: August 18, 2014, 02:21:35 PM »
The radio personality who 'live tweeted' from Ferguson last night just tweeted this:

"Asked protestors in #ferguson what needs 2 happen for peace, they almost all said, not until the officer suffers the same fate as Mike Brown"


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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #207 on: August 18, 2014, 02:26:51 PM »
I understand your point here....and the officer should be held at a higher standard. One thing that is not discussed is the complete lack of respect for authority when it came to the initial stop/arrest. We can debate for countless pages on 'why' the black community should have the right to be suspicious of the police....but the fact remains that Brown after being detained by the officer Brown and Johnson chose to run off from custody after what the officer says there was a scuffle and wrangling for his weapon. They ran off....then Brown turns back at him at which that point he's fired upon. Why take off running if you've nothing to hide or be worried about? But we know that Brown did have something to hide being that he and Johson robbed a store 10 minutes earlier.
I've got no problem whatsoever with a solid disrespect for authority. Hell, it's a cornerstone of my life. I also don't see running from cops as proof of guilt. Aside from the myriad reasons for black folk to distrust the poh-lice, there are practical ones as well. As a white teenager in a middle class neighborhood I was seconds away from kicking a [genuine asshole of a] cop squarely in the nuts and bolting for a nearby creek. The man was threatening to endanger my safety in a serious manner and even looking back with nearly 30 years of life experience it still would have been the right move. Two pissed off cops would have still been safer then than what he was proposing (and barring gunplay I would have gotten away from them quite easily).

As for your second paragraph, it relies way too heavily on facts that are as yet unknown. Including, you're saying 35', and I'm pretty sure I read 1-2. I've been busy and haven't looked too heavily into today's details, but it's safe to say that we're still in a stage where nobody knows WTF went down.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #208 on: August 18, 2014, 02:32:22 PM »
As for your second paragraph, it relies way too heavily on facts that are as yet unknown. Including, you're saying 35', and I'm pretty sure I read 1-2. I've been busy and haven't looked too heavily into today's details, but it's safe to say that we're still in a stage where nobody knows WTF went down.

Last week they said it'd be two weeks before the investigation would be concluded. I'm curious as to if that is still on track....if they can figure this all out that quickly? I'm sure the scrutiny that this case will have is forcing them to dot all the "I" 's and cross the "t" 's mulitple times over. The last thing they need is an OJ type of investigation.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #209 on: August 18, 2014, 02:38:08 PM »
The radio personality who 'live tweeted' from Ferguson last night just tweeted this:

"Asked protestors in #ferguson what needs 2 happen for peace, they almost all said, not until the officer suffers the same fate as Mike Brown"

Not touching this one...

I've got no problem whatsoever with a solid disrespect for authority.

Same here.

My problem is that many seem to have a total disregard for authority, and that is a problem.