Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 57496 times)

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Offline axeman90210

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1540 on: December 10, 2017, 09:32:51 AM »
This case really pisses me off. It might be the best example we have to date that if a cop wants to shoot you there's nothing stopping him from doing so and nobody's going to punish him if he does. Whether he acts through malice or incompetence makes no difference. He's clear.

What would be really great and productive is if this became the narrative we could focus on and not ALL COPS ARE RACIST.

I think that's not quite the point people are trying to make. Most people (aside from the nutjob extremists) are making the point that a legal system that protects and/or lets cops like this guy walk constitutes systemic racism.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1541 on: December 10, 2017, 09:46:26 AM »
I would argue "most people" are not making that argument. The loudest people certainly are. My inclination is also to say they are wrong, but I am willing to give it more thoughtful consideration.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1542 on: December 10, 2017, 10:43:28 AM »
I would argue "most people" are not making that argument. The loudest people certainly are. My inclination is also to say they are wrong, but I am willing to give it more thoughtful consideration.
The racism, for lack of a better word, is there but it's not the overt variety that people tend to think of when they hear the word. I doubt there are many cops that just want to go out and torment black folk. I think there are plenty that are far more afraid of them than they are of white folk. Considering that fear is the driving force behind what we're seeing, that plays a huge role. The guy who got shot in his car while reaching (as instructed) for his license is a great example. Johnny fell apart after shooting him. He clearly didn't want to do it, but felt threatened by a situation he encounters 30 times a day.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1543 on: December 10, 2017, 12:56:51 PM »
El Barto, that to me is spot on.  Maybe it never came up in the decades before but it feels like that situation happens much more these days.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1544 on: December 11, 2017, 08:39:21 AM »
This case really pisses me off. It might be the best example we have to date that if a cop wants to shoot you there's nothing stopping him from doing so and nobody's going to punish him if he does. Whether he acts through malice or incompetence makes no difference. He's clear.

What would be really great and productive is if this became the narrative we could focus on and not ALL COPS ARE RACIST.

I think that's not quite the point people are trying to make. Most people (aside from the nutjob extremists) are making the point that a legal system that protects and/or lets cops like this guy walk constitutes systemic racism.

 But "cops" aren't a race.  Nor are "perps".  I think the narrative that this only happens because of a difference in skin color is missing the point, and thereby ignoring the cause for the symptoms. 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1545 on: December 11, 2017, 02:14:19 PM »
I think there are plenty that are far more afraid of them than they are of white folk. Considering that fear is the driving force behind what we're seeing, that plays a huge role.

Interesting thought I had not considered. Which made my mind go off in a new direction

* If person A is "afraid" of person B because of their race, does that make them racist?
* If so, how do we address that in our current LEO situation?
* Should we address why there might be fear (I already know the answer I'll get to this, so disregard....)
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1546 on: December 11, 2017, 09:05:18 PM »
I just saw a video of Hannibal Buress the comedian where he's getting arrested by cops in his being very confrontational. I guess what happened was is that he was completely drunk and he couldn't figure out how to use this phone for Uber. Went to the cops they smelled alcohol on him and they arrested him.

If I'm so drunk I'm not asking it cop to help me with my phone to get Uber.
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1547 on: December 11, 2017, 10:30:05 PM »
That Daniel Shaver video is just absolutely sickening. I just put myself in Daniel's shoes, I have six police officers in full armor and assault rifles trained on me and they ask me to crawl towards them with my hands on the air and if I make ONE wrong move, he's gonna shoot me... I just can't imagine. I realize that cops are supposed to maintain an air of authority and shouting is one way to do that, but I think he goes over the top with his yelling, I think he contradicts himself a few times too. I read on a different forum that he thought the cops may have been worried about a shooter in the room and that they didn't know if there was a person hiding. I call BS on that because immediately after shooting Daniel, they move right towards his room with no hesitation.

You have six officers with assault rifles and armor vs a guy in basketball shorts bawling his eyes out begging you not to shoot him and the cop plays a game of Simon Says and Daniel made one wrong move..... I don't know police training, but I feel like they had full control over the situation, doing that crawling thing just seemed unnecessary.

When I watch that video, I just hear a cop on a power trip, playing Mr. Tough Guy. It's just heartbreaking...

And also, having "You're Fucked" etched onto your rifle should say a lot about the state of mind of a police officer.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1548 on: December 12, 2017, 09:09:42 AM »
Seems to me the guy's best move at that point was to just go prone and refuse to follow any more instructions. A simple "fuck you, I'm not moving" might well result in a broken arm when they cuff and beat you, and they will beat you, but at least you're not giving them a pretense to shoot you.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1549 on: December 12, 2017, 09:14:42 AM »
I realize that cops are supposed to maintain an air of authority and shouting is one way to do that, but I think he goes over the top with his yelling

Same here. There are many ways to establish and maintain authority in a tense situation and shouting is only one of them, yet it seems to be the only one that officer knew (or cared about). Once the guy is on the ground with his hands up, that would be the time to switch to calm but firm and clear instructions, not screaming like he was. It's as if he was trying to goad the guy into giving him a reason to kill him, doing all he could to get him to flinch.

Offline Kattoelox

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1550 on: December 12, 2017, 09:23:37 AM »
Hm.

I'm not claiming to know everything on the Shaver incident, but from what I know, after watching the video and reading about what happened: he was showing off a gun and apparently pointed it out a window. That would set off alarm bells if I was a cop and I wouldn't take any chances especially given that the most deadly shooting in American history happened recently from a hotel window (or is it the second-deadliest now? hard to keep up these days). The guy did stupid things which brought the cops, and the officer was extremely clear with his instructions, NOT to do anything that would give the officer reason to believe he was reaching for a weapon - and being in the moment in this climate, well... Right at the moment he was shot, it was when his arm moved back, farther than it ever should be if he was crawling like the officer instructed.

Tragic? Absolutely. Could the officer have handled it differently? Of course - but we can't rewind time. Hindsight is 20/20. But - another example of a murderous cop? No. In this situation, I'm with the officer. You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes, as the saying goes, and even if he was drunk, the whole thing could've been avoided if he just hadn't pointed a damn rifle out of the hotel window. It is a stupid thing to do.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1551 on: December 12, 2017, 09:31:19 AM »
Did the guy need to be shot? No.
Did the guy get shot? Eight times in the back.

Simply put, Johnny killed a man that didn't need to be killed. In a normal society he'd be held accountable for it. I have no problem with the cops being cautious. I do have a problem with them acting out of paranoia to the detriment of the citizens they're supposedly out to protect.
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Offline Kattoelox

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1552 on: December 12, 2017, 09:46:45 AM »
I don't think it's as simple as that. I'm trying to put myself in both of their shoes and the officer is the one who has to respond to an eye witness account of a man pointing a rifle out of a hotel window in late 2017 - try to imagine how you would honestly handle it for your own safety when you have to potentially deal with these situations on a daily basis. Like I said, with recent events, it's tragic and could have been handled differently but I can't exactly blame the officer for firing in this instance especially when he was more than clear, multiple times, about his expectations for Shaver. I dunno. It's a bad situation all around.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1553 on: December 12, 2017, 09:59:19 AM »
We can sit here and say how it SHOULD be... in a PERFECT WORLD. But we are far from that, and it's pretty clear that until things change, this progression of events and the outcome are still considered legal by the system. It's important for people to know that.

And when it comes down to it, I find all the "specifics"/variables to be irrelevant. At that moment, when Shaver made that move, the cop did what I think most people would do in that situation. 1+2=3. (1) A cop with his gun on a guy in a tense situation + (2) Guy reaching for his waist band = (3) Dead guy.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1554 on: December 12, 2017, 10:09:32 AM »
For the sake of argument here, let's say the guy had a G19 in his wasteband which miraculously didn't fall out on the floor, and his intention was to take as many cops with him as he could. Did he pose any real threat from his prone position on the ground and six cops sighted up on him? So much of a threat that they couldn't even wait to see if there actually was a weapon?

And should we just assume that he's a cold blooded, murderous graduate of the Lee Strasberg School, using his acting skills to lull the cops into a false sense of security with his phony pleas and crying?

Honestly, the people looking to write this off as "he shouldn't have flinched" are every bit as much of a problem. That used to work, but now that we're seeing more and more video of these encounters people need to be reevaluating the standards, and we damn sure shouldn't be dismissing these things as "a tragic, unavoidable occurrence." It was completely avoidable and fucking well should have been. Perhaps when enough people stop defending cops when they needlessly kill somebody Johnny will start to reconsider their practices. Doubtful, I know, but they don't have much of a reason to now.
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Offline Kattoelox

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1555 on: December 12, 2017, 10:21:37 AM »
Wait, so there's a dichotomy of either "completely innocent" or "murderous cop-hating criminal" and nothing in between? How is the cop supposed to know anything about this individual other than he was reported to have pointed a rifle out of a window and could potentially have something in his waistband or back pocket? You cannot ignore current events for something like this; this is something we just very recently witnessed, a man shooting from a hotel window and killing, what was it, over 50 people? It's a very serious thing to deal with and I don't blame the officer for being as loud as he was. He was very explicit in his instructions: do NOT reach back or move your hand back there, because you WILL get shot, and you WILL likely lose your life. Do not even chance it.

Quote
Honestly, the people looking to write this off as "he shouldn't have flinched" are every bit as much of a problem. That used to work, but now that we're seeing more and more video of these encounters people need to be reevaluating the standards, and we damn sure shouldn't be dismissing these things as "a tragic, unavoidable occurrence." It was completely avoidable and fucking well should have been. Perhaps when enough people stop defending cops when they needlessly kill somebody Johnny will start to reconsider their practices. Doubtful, I know, but they don't have much of a reason to now.

I disagree. You call it flinching; I see it as his move his arm in a way that looks like he might have been reaching for his back pocket or waistband. The movement takes a split second, and the officer had to react to it in a split second. He didn't have the luxury of waiting to see what the guy's intent or motive was or analyze every aspect of it like we are now. I am normally never on the cop's side in these situations but this officer could not have been more clear about what was going to happen, and the guy messed up. We could talk til the cows come home about the other ways the officer should have handled it, but that's not what happened. What happened is the guy fucked up and got shot despite the officer telling him exactly what NOT to do.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1556 on: December 12, 2017, 10:53:36 AM »
hot take...............................cops are bad.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1557 on: December 12, 2017, 10:58:13 AM »
Honestly, the people looking to write this off as "he shouldn't have flinched" are every bit as much of a problem. That used to work, but now that we're seeing more and more video of these encounters people need to be reevaluating the standards, and we damn sure shouldn't be dismissing these things as "a tragic, unavoidable occurrence."
You're continuing to mis- characterize the move he made, as well as some people's perception of that move. He did not FLINCH. He absolutely reached his arm for his waste band. Those are two entirely different actions. Also, nobody is implying that it was UNAVOIDABLE. It was absolutely avoidable, in many ways, one of which being the guy not making that specific move.

I truly hope you EB don't end up in a similar scenario anytime soon (or ever for that matter), but if you do, what exactly will you do to hold these cops to a higher standard? It's one thing to talk about from the outside, how we can change the power imbalance. But it's quite another when you're on the inside, with a gun in your face and a cop yelling at you. You're hard pressed to find something that will get that cop to chill out and not be so on edge. But you CAN control your own actions, and doing something that won't get you killed is probably in your best interest in the short term.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1558 on: December 12, 2017, 11:12:58 AM »
Honestly, the people looking to write this off as "he shouldn't have flinched" are every bit as much of a problem. That used to work, but now that we're seeing more and more video of these encounters people need to be reevaluating the standards, and we damn sure shouldn't be dismissing these things as "a tragic, unavoidable occurrence."
You're continuing to mis- characterize the move he made, as well as some people's perception of that move. He did not FLINCH. He absolutely reached his arm for his waste band. Those are two entirely different actions. Also, nobody is implying that it was UNAVOIDABLE. It was absolutely avoidable, in many ways, one of which being the guy not making that specific move.

I truly hope you EB don't end up in a similar scenario anytime soon (or ever for that matter), but if you do, what exactly will you do to hold these cops to a higher standard? It's one thing to talk about from the outside, how we can change the power imbalance. But it's quite another when you're on the inside, with a gun in your face and a cop yelling at you. You're hard pressed to find something that will get that cop to chill out and not be so on edge. But you CAN control your own actions, and doing something that won't get you killed is probably in your best interest in the short term.

I tihnk it'S also way too easy for us to sit here and say "I never would have moved like that, pshh what an idiot"

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1559 on: December 12, 2017, 11:23:27 AM »
Wait, so there's a dichotomy of either "completely innocent" or "murderous cop-hating criminal" and nothing in between? How is the cop supposed to know anything about this individual other than he was reported to have pointed a rifle out of a window and could potentially have something in his waistband or back pocket? You cannot ignore current events for something like this; this is something we just very recently witnessed, a man shooting from a hotel window and killing, what was it, over 50 people? It's a very serious thing to deal with and I don't blame the officer for being as loud as he was. He was very explicit in his instructions: do NOT reach back or move your hand back there, because you WILL get shot, and you WILL likely lose your life. Do not even chance it.

Quote
Honestly, the people looking to write this off as "he shouldn't have flinched" are every bit as much of a problem. That used to work, but now that we're seeing more and more video of these encounters people need to be reevaluating the standards, and we damn sure shouldn't be dismissing these things as "a tragic, unavoidable occurrence." It was completely avoidable and fucking well should have been. Perhaps when enough people stop defending cops when they needlessly kill somebody Johnny will start to reconsider their practices. Doubtful, I know, but they don't have much of a reason to now.

I disagree. You call it flinching; I see it as his move his arm in a way that looks like he might have been reaching for his back pocket or waistband. The movement takes a split second, and the officer had to react to it in a split second. He didn't have the luxury of waiting to see what the guy's intent or motive was or analyze every aspect of it like we are now. I am normally never on the cop's side in these situations but this officer could not have been more clear about what was going to happen, and the guy messed up. We could talk til the cows come home about the other ways the officer should have handled it, but that's not what happened. What happened is the guy fucked up and got shot despite the officer telling him exactly what NOT to do.
For one thing, I'm going with incompetent, which seems to fit into the mid-ground you're looking for. I don't think he maliciously killed a guy in cold blood. I think he fucked up royally. Normal people would be held accountable. Cops are not.

Also, did Johnny know if he was the guy with the weapon or not? It took LVPD thirty minutes to figure out which room a guy was in after he spent 10 firing constantly. These guys were acting on a tip and nothing more. But, if they did have reason to think he was their guy, then they had the situation resolved. In any case, all they had in that situation was a citizen. Somebody hanging out in a hotel drinking, as per his right.

Lastly, flinching isn't correct, but it's better for the pro-cop side. This guy's hand was empty and coming forward when Officer Shooty opened fire.



I truly hope you EB don't end up in a similar scenario anytime soon (or ever for that matter), but if you do, what exactly will you do to hold these cops to a higher standard? It's one thing to talk about from the outside, how we can change the power imbalance. But it's quite another when you're on the inside, with a gun in your face and a cop yelling at you. You're hard pressed to find something that will get that cop to chill out and not be so on edge. But you CAN control your own actions, and doing something that won't get you killed is probably in your best interest in the short term.
There's nothing I can do to prevent incompetence, or negate the Us Against Them conditioning. As I suggested earlier, in this particular instance I suspect going prone and refusing to move an inch is the best bet.

What I can do? Go out of my way to never involve cops in anything. If somebody breaks into my place, I'm calling Allstate, changing my locks, and leaving Johnny out of it altogether. He doesn't care about property crimes anyway. Gunfire breaks out in my front yard? I'm strapping up, locking the door, and getting back to my video games. Personally, I think this is a shame. I'd like to think that as an ostensibly law abiding citizen that the police are on my side. They might be, but with friends like these. . .

So, after seeing what happened to this guy who behaved exactly like a normal person would, you have any interest in engaging the police?
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Offline Kattoelox

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1560 on: December 12, 2017, 12:35:10 PM »
For one thing, I'm going with incompetent, which seems to fit into the mid-ground you're looking for. I don't think he maliciously killed a guy in cold blood. I think he fucked up royally. Normal people would be held accountable. Cops are not.

Incompetent is only a bit better, to me, but I don't think this was incompetence because he clearly instructed the guy who was a potential danger given the context of the situation, and warned him several times. But I want to push back on this: cops aren't held accountable? Michael Slager wasn't just sentenced to 20 years for shooting Walter Scott in the back as he fled? He wasn't fired from the police department shortly after that video popped up? Brailsford wasn't fired after they found that 'you're fucked' message on his gun? Let's be reasonable, now - cops *are* held accountable - just not as often as lots of people seem to wish they were.

Also, did Johnny know if he was the guy with the weapon or not? It took LVPD thirty minutes to figure out which room a guy was in after he spent 10 firing constantly. These guys were acting on a tip and nothing more. But, if they did have reason to think he was their guy, then they had the situation resolved. In any case, all they had in that situation was a citizen. Somebody hanging out in a hotel drinking, as per his right.

Hanging out, drinking, and pointing a gun out of a window. Don't leave out all the facts. :) I don't know all the information the officers had before entering, but they clearly knew enough to know it was coming from that room.

Lastly, flinching isn't correct, but it's better for the pro-cop side. This guy's hand was empty and coming forward when Officer Shooty opened fire.

It was empty, but not coming forward when he fired. That just isn't true, you can see it on the tape, he fired as his hand was in the air reaching backward for whatever reason. The officer warned him numerous times quite clearly not to do anything like that. If you are instructed to crawl forward, your hand at no point has any reason to go behind you.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1561 on: December 12, 2017, 12:43:12 PM »
Slager fucked up. I have no idea what he was thinking by copping out. And my point was about legal ramifications. If you or I shot somebody on the basis of "I thought maybe he might have had a gun" we're going to prison for a very long time. So, yeah, the law gives them a pass. But since you mention it, why was he fired if he acted reasonably? Was it for the message on his gun or for killing an unarmed man?


Hanging out, drinking, and pointing a gun out of a window. Don't leave out all the facts. :) I don't know all the information the officers had before entering, but they clearly knew enough to know it was coming from that room.
Did they? Says who?

And from my watching of the video it looked pretty clear that his hand was already coming back forward. But, for the sake of argument, assuming it wasn't you don't think Johnny jumped the gun a bit? As I asked before, what chance did that guy have to get any meaningful round off before being shot?
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Offline vtgrad

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1562 on: December 12, 2017, 01:05:50 PM »
Just wanted to remind all involved that this shooting took place in 2016... well before the Las Vegas shooting from earlier this year.

I've no problem with the shouting, I'll even go as far as to say I have no problem with the threats (though they were obviously unnecessary to a crying man on his face on the floor), but I have a serious problem with the instructions that lead to the shooting.  If the officer was trained to behave that way, change the training... the suspect is on the floor obeying your orders to lace fingers and cross feet, don't even ask him/her to move.  Go to him, place the handcuffs and neutralize the situation.  If LEO believes there's an active shooter in the room, proceed carefully with a spread formation and have the other officers watch the door while the lead office places the cuffs.  No movements after the face-down command, no chance for the "messing up again" that the officer so eloquently spoke about.

The articles also do not say with certainty that Shaver was pointing his "riffles" out of that window.

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Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1563 on: December 12, 2017, 01:09:44 PM »
Just wanted to remind all involved that this shooting took place in 2016... well before the Las Vegas shooting from earlier this year.

I've no problem with the shouting, I'll even go as far as to say I have no problem with the threats (though they were obviously unnecessary to a crying man on his face on the floor), but I have a serious problem with the instructions that lead to the shooting.  If the officer was trained to behave that way, change the training... the suspect is on the floor obeying your orders to lace fingers and cross feet, don't even ask him/her to move. Go to him, place the handcuffs and neutralize the situation.  If LEO believes there's an active shooter in the room, proceed carefully with a spread formation and have the other officers watch the door while the lead office places the cuffs.  No movements after the face-down command, no chance for the "messing up again" that the officer so eloquently spoke about.

This was the thing I never understood about this incident. Why did they make the guy go through all those gymnastics? It's almost like they were fucking with him. The guy was on the ground and officers had guns on him. Tell him to lay face down and not move. Have another officer walk over and apprehend him. If they're too afraid to do that out of fear for their lives, they shouldn't be cops. Danger comes with the territory. That's why you get to retire after 20 years. Man up.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1564 on: December 12, 2017, 01:13:33 PM »
And after seeing what it got the poor bastard I wouldn't follow those instructions.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1565 on: December 12, 2017, 03:27:28 PM »
You guys ever hear about "Swatting"?

It basically when popular internet streamers have one of their viewers find out their real name and address and think its funny to call a police department and tell them that they are going to go on a rampage or something using that streamers name.

So basically the swat team shows up, expecting a columbine situation, ready to rock and you almost have a Daniel Shaver situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiW-BVPCbZk

I find it pretty terrifying that Some random person can put a fake call in on you and your life can almost end or actually end all due to a misunderstanding. There needs to be some discretion from these police. Sure, you might be walking into the next virginia tech, but in the back of their mind should be what if we aren't? 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 03:36:15 PM by Phoenix87x »
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1566 on: December 12, 2017, 07:49:53 PM »
Seems to me the guy's best move at that point was to just go prone and refuse to follow any more instructions. A simple "fuck you, I'm not moving" might well result in a broken arm when they cuff and beat you, and they will beat you, but at least you're not giving them a pretense to shoot you.
I think they would have shot him for disobeying orders
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