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Offline Cable

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1470 on: September 06, 2017, 10:12:10 AM »
And the whole quotas will never be mentioned, but they totally exist. And it is probably on all levels; traffic tickets, amount of "busts," and amount of positive evidence from detectives.

One of my best friends is a local cop.  The quotas are different for different towns and whatnot, but they exist.  There are only two in his case, tickets and arrests.  Essentially though, you can hit your quota in a couple shifts if you actually work and struggling to meet a quota is not an issue.  That's coming from a low crime town.  Most of his arrests and tickets are issued to people driving through the town.
Those ticket quotas are going to be replaced by searches. Writing tickets to passersby is an annoyance. Seizing the stuff of passersby is much easier and more profitable. I had a Podunk cop pull me over allegedly for 45/35 or something, I'd call it 50/50 that I was actually speeding, but whatever. He let me off with a warning. That is completely unheard of in small towns. All he wanted was to find out if it'd be worth his time running a dog around my car. He did a pretty good job of "interviewing" me and decided that I was who I said I was and let me go. However, had he been able to seize my car, not a difficult thing to do nowadays, the good folks in Commerce, Tx would have auctioned it off or $5k. That covers ~50 speeding tickets.


Some police love searching. Potential for seizures as you mentioned. The professor I helped with research would walk me through, while watching the video tapes, how some cops "talk" the person into a search. Sometimes he said the cop would "asshole" the person into a search- still love how the term asshole is used as a verb. If I recall correctly, the word used as a verb was an accepted and researched thing in the lit.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1471 on: September 06, 2017, 10:14:33 AM »
Potential for a pretty big protest and I'd guess subsequent rioting in St. Louis again stemming from a Police Shooting that happened even before the Wilson/Brown incident. The officer waived his right to a jury trial and put it in the hands of the judge....who still hasn't announced the verdict but it appears it's close to coming out.

Not sure what to think about the case itself. I remember when it happened but it's been so long ago I had to re-read what is out there. The gist of it is (2) officers pursued a suspected drug dealer then fired on him when they felt threatened. The prosecution claims one of the officers then planted a gun after the shooting....but the facts of the case are largely word against word. There is a clip of dashboard video that captured the officer charged saying something to the effect of 'we're going to kill this Muther Fu%*er'....but defense is arguing it's out of context. Not sure what context would make that statement acceptable though. Anyway....link below to recent article in the st louis post.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/anticipation-grows-ahead-of-verdict-in-jason-stockley-murder-trial/article_68d0cc45-89e1-5ab3-a7e5-81bc39191de0.html
Not sure why a cop would bother planting a gun on him since it makes no difference to the final outcome. Johnny can shoot an unarmed man just as lawfully, and the plant adds an element of complication. Just shoot the guy, recite the standard spiel, get acquitted and sue for back pay.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1472 on: September 06, 2017, 10:20:11 AM »
And the whole quotas will never be mentioned, but they totally exist. And it is probably on all levels; traffic tickets, amount of "busts," and amount of positive evidence from detectives.

One of my best friends is a local cop.  The quotas are different for different towns and whatnot, but they exist.  There are only two in his case, tickets and arrests.  Essentially though, you can hit your quota in a couple shifts if you actually work and struggling to meet a quota is not an issue.  That's coming from a low crime town.  Most of his arrests and tickets are issued to people driving through the town.
Those ticket quotas are going to be replaced by searches. Writing tickets to passersby is an annoyance. Seizing the stuff of passersby is much easier and more profitable. I had a Podunk cop pull me over allegedly for 45/35 or something, I'd call it 50/50 that I was actually speeding, but whatever. He let me off with a warning. That is completely unheard of in small towns. All he wanted was to find out if it'd be worth his time running a dog around my car. He did a pretty good job of "interviewing" me and decided that I was who I said I was and let me go. However, had he been able to seize my car, not a difficult thing to do nowadays, the good folks in Commerce, Tx would have auctioned it off or $5k. That covers ~50 speeding tickets.


Some police love searching. Potential for seizures as you mentioned. The professor I helped with research would walk me through, while watching the video tapes, how some cops "talk" the person into a search. Sometimes he said the cop would "asshole" the person into a search- still love how the term asshole is used as a verb. If I recall correctly, the word used as a verb was an accepted and researched thing in the lit.

You may not, but I don't have any problem with a cop "talking" a person into a search.  They still have free will and can choose to say no at any time.   Whether I'm okay with "assholing" a person into a search, it of course depends on what you mean by "assholing".  If it's just less friendly speech, well, I don't have a problem with that either, generally. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1473 on: September 06, 2017, 11:07:53 AM »
And the whole quotas will never be mentioned, but they totally exist. And it is probably on all levels; traffic tickets, amount of "busts," and amount of positive evidence from detectives.

One of my best friends is a local cop.  The quotas are different for different towns and whatnot, but they exist.  There are only two in his case, tickets and arrests.  Essentially though, you can hit your quota in a couple shifts if you actually work and struggling to meet a quota is not an issue.  That's coming from a low crime town.  Most of his arrests and tickets are issued to people driving through the town.
Those ticket quotas are going to be replaced by searches. Writing tickets to passersby is an annoyance. Seizing the stuff of passersby is much easier and more profitable. I had a Podunk cop pull me over allegedly for 45/35 or something, I'd call it 50/50 that I was actually speeding, but whatever. He let me off with a warning. That is completely unheard of in small towns. All he wanted was to find out if it'd be worth his time running a dog around my car. He did a pretty good job of "interviewing" me and decided that I was who I said I was and let me go. However, had he been able to seize my car, not a difficult thing to do nowadays, the good folks in Commerce, Tx would have auctioned it off or $5k. That covers ~50 speeding tickets.


Some police love searching. Potential for seizures as you mentioned. The professor I helped with research would walk me through, while watching the video tapes, how some cops "talk" the person into a search. Sometimes he said the cop would "asshole" the person into a search- still love how the term asshole is used as a verb. If I recall correctly, the word used as a verb was an accepted and researched thing in the lit.

You may not, but I don't have any problem with a cop "talking" a person into a search.  They still have free will and can choose to say no at any time.   Whether I'm okay with "assholing" a person into a search, it of course depends on what you mean by "assholing".  If it's just less friendly speech, well, I don't have a problem with that either, generally.
That's kind of dodgy, dude. Cops are, by design, intimidating. Maintaining an air of control is a part of every traffic stop. Will and the ability to say no isn't quite as free as if you and I were chatting about it over a beer. Let's also keep in mind that they're allowed to lie to you.

Here's what I can tell you. I'm fully aware of my rights during a traffic stop. I'm also fairly nervous when dealing with them. It is a confrontational interaction, after all. When Podunk Johnny stopped me it took a couple of minutes for me to figure out what his true intentions were. I thought I was just being shaken down for a $100 speeding fine. Had it come down to it I would have raised some objections to a search of my car, or waiting around for a dog to show up, but I'm not sure I'd have been fully assertive of my rights. That's a pretty tough thing to do on the side of the road.
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Offline Cable

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1474 on: September 06, 2017, 11:21:20 AM »
Yeah I'm not commenting Stadler on the legality of it or not, nor acceptance or rejection of it. Just commenting that it goes on, and it is known in the research realm. And that I love how "asshole" via exerting lawfully enabled powers is a verb- at least from my old professor.  :coolio
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1475 on: September 06, 2017, 12:47:46 PM »
And the whole quotas will never be mentioned, but they totally exist. And it is probably on all levels; traffic tickets, amount of "busts," and amount of positive evidence from detectives.

One of my best friends is a local cop.  The quotas are different for different towns and whatnot, but they exist.  There are only two in his case, tickets and arrests.  Essentially though, you can hit your quota in a couple shifts if you actually work and struggling to meet a quota is not an issue.  That's coming from a low crime town.  Most of his arrests and tickets are issued to people driving through the town.
Those ticket quotas are going to be replaced by searches. Writing tickets to passersby is an annoyance. Seizing the stuff of passersby is much easier and more profitable. I had a Podunk cop pull me over allegedly for 45/35 or something, I'd call it 50/50 that I was actually speeding, but whatever. He let me off with a warning. That is completely unheard of in small towns. All he wanted was to find out if it'd be worth his time running a dog around my car. He did a pretty good job of "interviewing" me and decided that I was who I said I was and let me go. However, had he been able to seize my car, not a difficult thing to do nowadays, the good folks in Commerce, Tx would have auctioned it off or $5k. That covers ~50 speeding tickets.


Some police love searching. Potential for seizures as you mentioned. The professor I helped with research would walk me through, while watching the video tapes, how some cops "talk" the person into a search. Sometimes he said the cop would "asshole" the person into a search- still love how the term asshole is used as a verb. If I recall correctly, the word used as a verb was an accepted and researched thing in the lit.

You may not, but I don't have any problem with a cop "talking" a person into a search.  They still have free will and can choose to say no at any time.   Whether I'm okay with "assholing" a person into a search, it of course depends on what you mean by "assholing".  If it's just less friendly speech, well, I don't have a problem with that either, generally.
That's kind of dodgy, dude. Cops are, by design, intimidating. Maintaining an air of control is a part of every traffic stop. Will and the ability to say no isn't quite as free as if you and I were chatting about it over a beer. Let's also keep in mind that they're allowed to lie to you.

Here's what I can tell you. I'm fully aware of my rights during a traffic stop. I'm also fairly nervous when dealing with them. It is a confrontational interaction, after all. When Podunk Johnny stopped me it took a couple of minutes for me to figure out what his true intentions were. I thought I was just being shaken down for a $100 speeding fine. Had it come down to it I would have raised some objections to a search of my car, or waiting around for a dog to show up, but I'm not sure I'd have been fully assertive of my rights. That's a pretty tough thing to do on the side of the road.

No doubt.  I can't really argue with you on much here.   But at the end of the day, we can't say there should be NO conversation.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1476 on: September 06, 2017, 12:56:40 PM »
A conversation is fine. Persuasion is a different matter. Compulsion via the intimation of authority a different matter still.

edit: And I want to reiterate that we're talking about fishing expeditions here. This isn't grilling a suspected murderer under bright lights. This is random citizens being stopped to find out if their stuff can be seized. The entire basis for this is deeply flawed.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 01:04:06 PM by El Barto »
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1477 on: September 06, 2017, 02:32:08 PM »
I know my rights, got an A in criminal procedure back in the day, and will probably fold like a deck of cards in about 2 seconds if it ever comes down to it.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1478 on: September 06, 2017, 03:03:19 PM »
I know my rights, got an A in criminal procedure back in the day, and will probably fold like a deck of cards in about 2 seconds if it ever comes down to it.

 :lol so true

I don't like the cops bullying tactics, but there's a fine line between what I personally find acceptable and what I think becomes some sort of entrapment.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1479 on: September 06, 2017, 03:10:53 PM »

Here's what I can tell you. I'm fully aware of my rights during a traffic stop. I'm also fairly nervous when dealing with them. It is a confrontational interaction, after all.

This is why that nurse's situation struck me. You basically had two different kinds of authority facing off. The medical people had their set of responsibilities and applicable laws, and the police officer had his. When the nurse and her boss tried to explain that to the officer, he said "I've had enough of this" and manhandled her out of her workplace.

If that officer has so much faith in the authority of his badge, and so little respect for even medical professionals, it makes me wonder how he treats people of a lower social class when they try to exercise their rights and follow the law (as the nurse was doing). Even though the nurse was clearly very frightened, she nonetheless maintained a degree of control. It's easy though to imagine a very different kind of scenario, where the person being manhandled instinctively put up a slightly greater struggle (because of fear, panic or confusion) and the policeman took even less kindly to it.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:21:22 PM by Dave_Manchester »


Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1481 on: September 15, 2017, 08:00:04 AM »
Potential for a pretty big protest and I'd guess subsequent rioting in St. Louis again stemming from a Police Shooting that happened even before the Wilson/Brown incident. The officer waived his right to a jury trial and put it in the hands of the judge....who still hasn't announced the verdict but it appears it's close to coming out.

Not sure what to think about the case itself. I remember when it happened but it's been so long ago I had to re-read what is out there. The gist of it is (2) officers pursued a suspected drug dealer then fired on him when they felt threatened. The prosecution claims one of the officers then planted a gun after the shooting....but the facts of the case are largely word against word. There is a clip of dashboard video that captured the officer charged saying something to the effect of 'we're going to kill this Muther Fu%*er'....but defense is arguing it's out of context. Not sure what context would make that statement acceptable though. Anyway....link below to recent article in the st louis post.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/anticipation-grows-ahead-of-verdict-in-jason-stockley-murder-trial/article_68d0cc45-89e1-5ab3-a7e5-81bc39191de0.html

All indications are that the verdict is set to be announced today around three o'clock. My neighbor is a former St. Louis police officer and he said he got a few calls and texts yesterday from his brethren who are still working there saying it's going to happen today.

The thing is, the FBI investigated this shooting when it happened in 2011. They came back and said it was a justifiable shooting and that there was no evidence to prosecute. AFTER the Wilson/Brown incident in Ferguson some prosecutor in St. Louis thought it necessary to re-open the case stating they had additional evidence. The additional evidence was a 12 minute dash cam video that showed Stockley and his fellow officers processing the crime scene. Prosecution contends the instances when Stockley re-enter the vehicle that's when he planted a gun. There is no direct shot of him planting a gun....just him and the other officers processing the scene and entering the vehicle multiple times.

The outrageous thing is the Black Clergy of St. Louis met on the courthouse steps and told the judge that if he comes back with a not guilty verdict that 'blood was on his hands'. They didn't encourage or ask the black community to respect the court of law or not to riot if a not guilty verdict came back....only that unless the judge gives them the ruling they want things are going to get messy. They've encouraged 'protesting' which really is just rioting and they've threatened to shut down highways again....of which, there's already been an instance of a group of them being ran through by a vehicle (and we've talked that to death elsewhere) The Black Clergy and leadership of St. Louis are doing nothing but encouraging violence and rioting....on top of the fact the usual suspects of paid, professional rioters have made their way to St. Louis again...just waiting for the not guilty verdict.

I wish beyond all wishes that the verdict comes back guilty just so I can see the reaction of disappointment from the BLM folk, the clergy and professional rioters. It'll ruin their plans and they'll probably still riot in celebration.



EDIT

No sooner than I posted that I jumped over to STL Today and verdict is in .....Not Guilty. No surprise but I'm sure STL is in for a 'fun' weekend..

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ex-st-louis-police-officer-jason-stockley-found-not-guilty/article_c7ee91ad-e65b-5da6-84cb-0b478078c8cb.html
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1482 on: September 15, 2017, 08:15:34 AM »
Quote
Lab tests of the gun revealed only Stockley's DNA.

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1483 on: September 15, 2017, 08:19:21 AM »
Quote
Lab tests of the gun revealed only Stockley's DNA.

And yet a Judge chose not to convict....and the FBI chose not to even charge him. Must be a conspiracy...


**edit**
  Just confirmed with my neighbor (former officer) that part of procedure when finding a weapon at a crime scene is to unload it.....which is exactly what Stokely did and testified to. Depending on where your needle points that would either say "there's where the DNA came from" or "how convenient for him"

Either way whether anyone likes to hear it or not, with the dash cam evidence, witness testimony, DNA...all of it....if there were evidence to convict he'd have been convicted.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 08:25:14 AM by gmillerdrake »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1484 on: September 15, 2017, 08:34:11 AM »
Quote
Lab tests of the gun revealed only Stockley's DNA.

And yet a Judge chose not to convict....and the FBI chose not to even charge him. Must be a conspiracy...


**edit**
  Just confirmed with my neighbor (former officer) that part of procedure when finding a weapon at a crime scene is to unload it.....which is exactly what Stokely did and testified to. Depending on where your needle points that would either say "there's where the DNA came from" or "how convenient for him"

Either way whether anyone likes to hear it or not, with the dash cam evidence, witness testimony, DNA...all of it....if there were evidence to convict he'd have been convicted.
The judge didn't choose to convict in so much as he found it impossible to convict. Big difference, and related to the system itself, not the facts of the case.

And the relevant part of the quote is that ONLY in the middle. Is their any square millimeter of one of your guns that you haven't had your grubby hands on? Fingerprints in the oil you used on the slides? Dead skin cells in the grips? Thumb prints on the loaded ammo?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1485 on: September 15, 2017, 08:45:28 AM »
Link to article that SMF won't let me post plain

This is a good read, and I post it here not to highlight crooked cops being crooked, but rather as an example of how one can gradually slip into that category without necessarily noticing it. When reading it I was fairly understanding of the bad guys in this, simply because many of the incremental steps could be perfectly reasonable at the time. Always culminating in the fact that they're still serving the law and order side. Confiscating and leasing back a flashy BMW was actually aiding other departments in investigations while providing money to be used for the same purpose.

Moreover, it also demonstrates how haphazard oversight can be. Why go after your own guys when they're still fighting the good fight and nobody's complaining?
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1486 on: September 15, 2017, 08:58:36 AM »
The judge didn't choose to convict in so much as he found it impossible to convict. Big difference, and related to the system itself, not the facts of the case.

And the relevant part of the quote is that ONLY in the middle. Is their any square millimeter of one of your guns that you haven't had your grubby hands on? Fingerprints in the oil you used on the slides? Dead skin cells in the grips? Thumb prints on the loaded ammo?

no argument from me on these points EB. And you're most likely spot on with the point it was impossible to convict.

My larger issue lies with the black 'leadership' and Clergy who aren't dumb....they've know like everyone else that this not-guilty verdict was the most likely verdict. And, instead of talking to the community about how to deal with it peacefully....they've been stirring the pot....adding gas to the fire and doing everything they can to get the black community worked up rather than trying to work towards some sort of peaceful scenario.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1487 on: September 15, 2017, 09:23:05 AM »
Well, I had a reply typed out, but the forum won't let me post it. This is becoming a real problem.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1488 on: September 15, 2017, 12:31:39 PM »


No sooner than I posted that I jumped over to STL Today and verdict is in .....Not Guilty. No surprise but I'm sure STL is in for a 'fun' weekend..

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ex-st-louis-police-officer-jason-stockley-found-not-guilty/article_c7ee91ad-e65b-5da6-84cb-0b478078c8cb.html

I was considering going to U2 tomorrow, but it's at the Dome downtown. No way am I dealing with that crap.  Oh well.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1489 on: September 16, 2017, 09:12:13 AM »
The U2 concert tonight in St. Louis was just cancelled due to this bull shit. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1490 on: September 16, 2017, 10:46:59 AM »
The U2 concert tonight in St. Louis was just cancelled due to this bull shit.


That blows Kev.  :-\ Has this even been a reason for cancellation before, at least in the U.S.?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1491 on: September 16, 2017, 10:48:14 AM »
Seems to me that the protests are going off pretty reasonably, so far. And under the circumstances I consider the protests themselves reasonable. They're right to be pissed off right now.

Something that occurred to me yesterday was that down here if a known murder weapon was found and it only had one person's DNA on it, a jury would spend all of 45 minutes sending that person to the chair. There have certainly been people convicted on less. Yet in this case it's meaningless, as clearly the weapon belongs to somebody else.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1492 on: September 16, 2017, 10:49:42 AM »
The U2 concert tonight in St. Louis was just cancelled due to this bull shit.


That blows Kev.  :-\ Has this even been a reason for cancellation before, at least in the U.S.?
The reason for the cancellation is that the police are needed elsewhere and won't be available to provide security. It's not because the city is unsafe. I think that's an important distinction here.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1493 on: September 16, 2017, 02:08:40 PM »
In one of the links posted above which gives an overview of the case, it says that one of the prosecution's arguments involved comparing Stockley's actions and behaviour with that of his partner, Brian Bianchi. But the article then says "It is unclear why Bianchi was not called to testify at the trial". Has there been any further information on that, or indications as to why? What are some of the reasons his partner wouldn't be called to testify? I'd have thought he'd be one of the first people you'd want to hear from in this case.

The article says the prosecution wrote: "The only evidence linking Smith to the .38 revolver was Stockley’s testimony that he and Officer Bianchi saw Smith with it.”   Why would they not call Bianchi to corroborate or deny this?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 02:15:10 PM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1494 on: September 17, 2017, 06:12:57 AM »
The U2 concert tonight in St. Louis was just cancelled due to this bull shit.


That blows Kev.  :-\ Has this even been a reason for cancellation before, at least in the U.S.?

Not sure.  The U2 concert, which would have drawn 40-50K last night at the Dome, was cancelled, and apparently Ed Sheeran's sold-out show tonight downtown at the Scottrade Center (close to 20K) was as well.  That's a lot of disappointed music fans, but we can't get in the way of knuckleheads who want to vandalize and destroy the city.

This happened last night in a totally different area of the city:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/protests-turn-violent-in-delmar-loop-late-saturday-second-night/article_d93c9b0b-3958-5bba-a00b-bc971b2e9f4a.html

Seems to me that the protests are going off pretty reasonably, so far. And under the circumstances I consider the protests themselves reasonable. They're right to be pissed off right now.


Do we really think these "protests" wouldn't have happened if Stockley had been found guilty?  I don't think it mattered. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1495 on: September 17, 2017, 08:48:14 AM »
That's true Kev. They would  be protesting his sentence, insisting on Death Penalty or life. Then even at that they would protest the method.
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1496 on: September 17, 2017, 09:37:15 AM »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1497 on: September 17, 2017, 09:55:23 AM »
I didn't see any edit during the window break and reaction. Only during the interviews. Regardless, the telling part is in the demeanor of the other cops. If a protester or a bullet had smashed that window those guys wouldn't have been standing around quietly watching. Those guys saw what happened and weren't the slightest bit alarmed.

What a dipshit thing to do.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1498 on: September 18, 2017, 06:52:59 AM »
Talk about trying to drive an agenda. Every picture of Stokely is the one horrible up close shot of his face, looks very bad. The picture circulating of Smith is of him holding his then baby girl.

Everyone seems to have forgotten (because they haven't been told) that Smith WAS a known Heroin dealer who Stokely and his partner witnessed perform a heroin deal.....then when they tried to arrest him he fled off in a high speed chase ultimately ramming the police car.

The media is once again Trying to make Smith out to be citizen of the year like they did Mike Brown. Once again a series of horrible choices and actions by a criminal are ignored despite those being the reasons he was shot and killed.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1499 on: September 18, 2017, 07:35:26 AM »
Welcome to 2017 America, where the truth no longer matters.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1500 on: September 18, 2017, 08:10:56 AM »
Talk about trying to drive an agenda. Every picture of Stokely is the one horrible up close shot of his face, looks very bad. The picture circulating of Smith is of him holding his then baby girl.

Everyone seems to have forgotten (because they haven't been told) that Smith WAS a known Heroin dealer who Stokely and his partner witnessed perform a heroin deal.....then when they tried to arrest him he fled off in a high speed chase ultimately ramming the police car.

The media is once again Trying to make Smith out to be citizen of the year like they did Mike Brown. Once again a series of horrible choices and actions by a criminal are ignored despite those being the reasons he was shot and killed.
Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1501 on: September 18, 2017, 09:04:47 AM »
The media tells whatever story sells best.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1502 on: September 20, 2017, 07:45:39 AM »
The media tells whatever story sells best.

It's not just the media though.  People repeat this stuff as if it's true, and they ask for more on a daily basis.   My Yahoo "NEWS FEED" is anything but; it's HuffPo op/ed pieces.  It's style articles. It's dumb things like "Kim Kardashian rocked a mankini and broke the internet!" (I'm actually not really joking with that last one, though that's not a direct headline).   

I was watching "The Big Interview" between Dan Rather and Neil Young, and as much as I love Neil Young (I do) he kept going on about corporations, and how it is a travesty that corporations are treated as people.   And Dan said, and I'm paraphrasing, this is not a direct quote, that that's the law of the land.  And Neil said, and I'm paraphrasing, this is not a direct quote, that corporations can't have babies and families, so they can't be people.  And my head exploded.  The concept of corporations as people is not about anything OTHER than, it gives individuals standing to sue corporations in court.   THAT'S IT.   It doesn't go beyond that (much).  So Neil's bitching, and it sounds oh-so-1968, but the reality is, if they took that away, corporations couldn't be sued when they do commit bad acts.   That's not the media, that's people just believing what fits their narrative.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 12:25:05 PM by Stadler »

Offline Implode

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1503 on: September 20, 2017, 08:50:33 AM »
You aren't wrong. It's both. A vicious circle feeding itself.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1504 on: September 21, 2017, 10:28:00 AM »
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/21/552527929/oklahoma-city-police-fatally-shoot-deaf-man-despite-yells-of-he-cant-hear-you
I'm going to begin by saying I don't think his deafness matters much here. He was approaching Johnny with a weapon so whether or not he could hear "get on the ground" isn't so much a consideration.

Moreover, I also find silly the arguments "why couldn't they just taze him," or "why couldn't they have shot him in the knee." If you have to use force you use it to stop in the most certain, expedient manner possible. Nor do I buy into "he only had a knife, not a gun." People can close 15' and stab somebody a lot quicker than people assume. Guys with knives occasionally need to be shot.

Now that's out of the way, this doesn't sit so well with me. A pipe isn't a knife. Aside from the now deceased Bruce Lee, a forceful impact requires a fair amount of distance. If he winds up then you shoot him. But my bigger problem is that he was well covered. If one cop has a gun and one cop has a tazer and they both have him covered, start with the tazer. You've got plenty of time and distance to defend yourself if the tazer proves ineffective. This honestly sounds like another panicky cop to me. When the use of force is required you generally see everybody on the seen start shooting after the first bang. When one cop fires all the rounds and another doesn't that's telling to me.

This cops stands a better chance of winning two consecutive powerballs than he does being convicted, so that's not an issue, but panicky cops shouldn't be employed in my world. And here's an interesting angle. When the use of force is deemed justified, as it certainly will be, shouldn't that mean that the other cop didn't act properly by not firing? Didn't one of them necessarily bungle his job?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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