Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 38190 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2014, 07:29:44 AM »

How many of those black people can't vote because they've been given a felony for drug possession?

"They've been given" a felony?   Felonies are EARNED.   




Lecturing the forum on semantics and/or grammar doesn't come off as a particularly strong position from which to argue your point  :)


You know what he meant, just like the rest of us knew what he meant.  Obfuscation may seem like a viable tactic here, but that dog don't hunt.

Jeesus.   This is like the fourth or fifth post where you've got a hair across your ass about me or my posts.  You don't have to agree with them, or like them (couldn't care less either way) but at least be fair.

It is NOT a "lecture on grammar".  It's a viable - but subtle - point.  He's on about "latent racism" and a system that is "unfair" toward blacks, the implication being that there is not a fair shake in the court room.  The "been given" has meaning in this context, and whether he intended it purposefully or not, the implication is that the judgment was at least in part because of the court itself, and not the defendant.  My response - again, subtle, I can see how you might have missed it - was to clarify, because words matter, words mean something, that regardless of whether there is profiling by the police, regardless of whether there is inherent bias in the courtroom, at SOME point there is a level of personal responsibility that has to be had.  Unless it is just the single greatest railroad in the history of US jurisprudence, and unless you are going to completely overturn every single conviction, at some point you have to acknowledge that to get that far there is SOME personal culpability on the part of the defendant. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2014, 07:30:33 AM »
uh, you missed my point


my point is, whether or not the word "given" or "earned" was used in the point that Schevo was making is nothing but a diversion to pivot the conversation into blaming the victim.  Again.

Wrong.  Again.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #142 on: August 16, 2014, 08:34:27 AM »

We're the ones who made non-violent drug crimes a felony. More importantly, as kirk points out, youre taking the word out of context. Wish you would be as understanding of context for me as you do fot Gene Simmons.

Exceptions don't make the rule, and I'd say thats what you did at the end there.

But whether non-violent drug crimes should be a felony or not is a different matter than the latent racism of the court system.   I'm actually with you on that point.   I think - independent of race - the notion of being in jail for a non-violent drug crime is ridiculous and a waste of resources. 

And as I've explained above, I WAS giving you the benefit of context, and crediting you with making a subtle but important point.   I am sorry if I misunderstood. 


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What does the first part have to do with anything? And statistically speaking, more white people have the ability to go on tuesdays and vote. And when many elections are won by a few percentage difference, that makes an important difference.

It's directly relevant.  I don't know where you get your stat on "white person Tuesday", but the point was, when black communities (or any community for that matter) WANT to vote, they find a way.  Some of those communities in Atlanta get 100% turnout - on a Tuesday - from the black constituency.  I'm struggling to see how that translates into some disadvantage for blacks. 



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Huh? Youre making my head hurt with all your circular logic. I also don't see how it matters one iota what color of skin the officials are. Lets talk about the policies and practices.

Aren't we talking about the latent racism in the system?  Doesn't that concern skin color?   It's not circular logic, it is straightforward:  If I am black, and I have a black candidate, and I don't vote for them, opting for the white candidate, how can I complain about the "racism" in the system? 


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Nice obfuscation with percentages, which is a complete butchery of logic and statistics. More whites do crack-cocaine. We would then expect, in a fair system, for incarceration rates to be close to this reality. But we see the entire thing massively reversed, with more blacks being incarcerated for crack-cocaine. Could you tell me why you believe the percentages to matter?

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

There are more poor whites in America than blacks. Overall, its fairly similar in number, at about 5 million. If economics were a large factor, then we would expect there to be fairly similar incarceration number. We don't. Your hypothesis is factually wrong.

Stop.  There is no obfuscation.  To the first point, DOING crack cocaine and SELLING crack cocaine are very different matters.   Again, circumstantial evidence, I know, but the trial I was on, the defendant (for crack dealing charges, of which he was convicted FOUR prior times and yet was not in jail) and two co-conspirators were all black or Hispanic.  In EVERY picture purporting to show a "drug transaction" the defendant was seen talking to a white person.    I saw these with my own eyes.    So percentages matter, yes, but we have to be careful WHAT percentages we are talking about.   

And to show you I'm being fair, I'm going to point out your mistake, even though it helps your argument.   The "5 million" number is CHILDREN UNDER 18.    The total poverty numbers for whites are roughly 315,000,000 people times 63% white times 11% (rough poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites): 21.8 million.   The total poverty numbers for blacks are roughly 315,000,000 times 13% black times 27.5% (rough poverty rate for blacks): 11.2 million.   So there are actually about twice as many impoverished whites as there are blacks.  But here's the difference:  Over 70% of blacks in jail did not finish high school, compared with only about 10 to 15% whites.  High school graduation rates for blacks are at about 50%, whereas they are at about 80% for whites; dropout rates for blacks are about double that of whites.   We know unemployment for people without a high school degree is about double that of those with a high school degree (or better) and we know that wages for people without a high school degree are about half of those with a  high school degree (and a fraction of that of those with more than a high school degree).    Unless we want to argue that HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUT RATES ARE RACIST (which is possible, not arguing that, though we also know that the single greatest predictor of graduation rates is economics, not race) the chance of being in prison is far more likely an economic issue than a race issue.

Dismiss all of this as "obfuscation".  Your prerogative.   But if you're going to try to point fingers doesn't it make sense to do the work, put in the effort, and see if the simple statistics really reflect the reality?   




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Like how last night in Ferguson was supposed to be worse?

I don't get the reference, I'm sorry.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #143 on: August 16, 2014, 08:35:56 AM »
uh, you missed my point


my point is, whether or not the word "given" or "earned" was used in the point that Schevo was making is nothing but a diversion to pivot the conversation into blaming the victim.  Again.

Wrong.  Again.

I'd say he's pretty spot on. "Given" does not imply what was gave was unearned. "The cashier gave me back my change." "The teacher gave me an A." "The cop gave me a speeding ticket." "My boss gave me my paycheck." In all of these, what was given  was also earned. They are not opposing ideas, as you are making it out to be.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #144 on: August 16, 2014, 08:48:06 AM »
Poverty, and the kinds of jobs whites work vs blacks.**

And I never said it didn't apply to a lot of people, or other races, and it's fallacious to assume I did. It certainly does apply to a lot of whites, Hispanics and Asians. Stadler was making the argument that blacks should take it to the polls and I gave a list of reasons why the election results aren't accurate or a good measure of the populace and its' desires.

** in a GENERAL and STATISTICAL sense, not a case by case issue, or as if there are black or white jobs.

But to the point that El Barto, KevShmev (I giggle every time I write that), and I are making is that a) none of those reasons are endemic to blacks, and b) none of them are reasons that other communities - including black communities - haven't overcome multiple times in the past.  In fact, in 2008, about the same number of blacks voted (on a percentage basis) than whites did, and in 2012, MORE blacks voted than whites (on a percentage basis)!   Over 66% of eligible black voters found a way, on a Tuesday, to get out of work and make it to the polls, whereas only 64% of whites did. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #145 on: August 16, 2014, 09:02:52 AM »
uh, you missed my point


my point is, whether or not the word "given" or "earned" was used in the point that Schevo was making is nothing but a diversion to pivot the conversation into blaming the victim.  Again.

Wrong.  Again.

I'd say he's pretty spot on. "Given" does not imply what was gave was unearned. "The cashier gave me back my change." "The teacher gave me an A." "The cop gave me a speeding ticket." "My boss gave me my paycheck." In all of these, what was given  was also earned. They are not opposing ideas, as you are making it out to be.

I stand by my post above.  Not sure what else you want me to tell you. 

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #146 on: August 16, 2014, 09:33:56 AM »
Is voting in the US always on a Tuesday?

If yes, why?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #147 on: August 16, 2014, 09:55:16 AM »
Poverty, and the kinds of jobs whites work vs blacks.**

And I never said it didn't apply to a lot of people, or other races, and it's fallacious to assume I did. It certainly does apply to a lot of whites, Hispanics and Asians. Stadler was making the argument that blacks should take it to the polls and I gave a list of reasons why the election results aren't accurate or a good measure of the populace and its' desires.

** in a GENERAL and STATISTICAL sense, not a case by case issue, or as if there are black or white jobs.

But to the point that El Barto, KevShmev (I giggle every time I write that), and I are making is that a) none of those reasons are endemic to blacks, and b) none of them are reasons that other communities - including black communities - haven't overcome multiple times in the past.  In fact, in 2008, about the same number of blacks voted (on a percentage basis) than whites did, and in 2012, MORE blacks voted than whites (on a percentage basis)!   Over 66% of eligible black voters found a way, on a Tuesday, to get out of work and make it to the polls, whereas only 64% of whites did.

Exactly.  If someone really wants to vote, they'll find a way to make time to do it.  Hell, there have been Tuesdays where I didn't give that much of a darn about what was being voted on, so I didn't go out of my way to do it, and I suspect many people have that same attitude, regardless of what ethnicity they are.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #148 on: August 16, 2014, 09:57:15 AM »
Is voting in the US always on a Tuesday?

If yes, why?
I suspect it's the same reason Thanksgiving is always on a Thursday. In both cases it's always a specific Tuesday or Thursday. In the case of voting the 2nd Thursday of whatever month. Presidential elections are always in November, so you could look at a calender and find out that the 2096 presidential election will be on November 8th. States usually follow this convention, but you will hear about some cities holding their elections on Saturday (Dallas does, I think).
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #149 on: August 16, 2014, 10:10:21 AM »
Poverty, and the kinds of jobs whites work vs blacks.**

And I never said it didn't apply to a lot of people, or other races, and it's fallacious to assume I did. It certainly does apply to a lot of whites, Hispanics and Asians. Stadler was making the argument that blacks should take it to the polls and I gave a list of reasons why the election results aren't accurate or a good measure of the populace and its' desires.

** in a GENERAL and STATISTICAL sense, not a case by case issue, or as if there are black or white jobs.

But to the point that El Barto, KevShmev (I giggle every time I write that), and I are making is that a) none of those reasons are endemic to blacks, and b) none of them are reasons that other communities - including black communities - haven't overcome multiple times in the past.  In fact, in 2008, about the same number of blacks voted (on a percentage basis) than whites did, and in 2012, MORE blacks voted than whites (on a percentage basis)!   Over 66% of eligible black voters found a way, on a Tuesday, to get out of work and make it to the polls, whereas only 64% of whites did.

Exactly.  If someone really wants to vote, they'll find a way to make time to do it.  Hell, there have been Tuesdays where I didn't give that much of a darn about what was being voted on, so I didn't go out of my way to do it, and I suspect many people have that same attitude, regardless of what ethnicity they are.
In general I agree with this. As an aspect of Schevo's point, I can also see why some people (blacks in Fruguson, perhaps) might feel that it's absolutely pointless to bother as the system works against them anyway. Since I know the system's a sham so I don't think I've voted in 20 years, so I can certainly see their point. It's not a direct result of the system being crafted to keep them down (although I still think there is some of that), but the belief is there and the end result gets reenforced, so they reenforce it further with apathy.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2014, 10:38:43 AM »
Is voting in the US always on a Tuesday?

If yes, why?
I suspect it's the same reason Thanksgiving is always on a Thursday. In both cases it's always a specific Tuesday or Thursday. In the case of voting the 2nd Thursday of whatever month. Presidential elections are always in November, so you could look at a calender and find out that the 2096 presidential election will be on November 8th. States usually follow this convention, but you will hear about some cities holding their elections on Saturday (Dallas does, I think).

Actually, no (though that may be the reason it remains that day and hasn't been changed).   It was a vestige of the dynamics of the Republic back when the union was formed.  We were largely an agriculture society, one that often had to travel long distances to get to a population center, and one that held weekends sacred for religious observation.  So the month was November (after the harvest, but before winter weather), and, with a day of travel to, and a day of travel from, that left either Tuesday or Wednesday as possible days for voting.   I think Wednesday was typically "market day", so that left Tuesday.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #151 on: August 16, 2014, 10:44:34 AM »
In general I agree with this. As an aspect of Schevo's point, I can also see why some people (blacks in Fruguson, perhaps) might feel that it's absolutely pointless to bother as the system works against them anyway. Since I know the system's a sham so I don't think I've voted in 20 years, so I can certainly see their point. It's not a direct result of the system being crafted to keep them down (although I still think there is some of that), but the belief is there and the end result gets reenforced, so they reenforce it further with apathy.

This is an honest question, open to all.   At what point DOES responsibility play in?   I can actually see the logic in all of that, and while I don't know if it is actually true, I understand your point well.  But at what point (if at all) does apathy become "speech" in the sense of a statement?   

I know back when Obama was first elected, there were some pundits that noted that his election was the first step in removing one of the big "excuses" (quotes because I wish I had a better word) given by minorities.   it's a fair point to say "I'm not going to participate in a system that is rigged against me", but when a member of your demographic attains the highest office in the land, it's much harder to claim "glass ceiling", isn't it?   So, notwithstanding that maybe ONE candidate isn't proof of anything (we'll see how the next black Vice Presidential candidate fares, when it isn't a statement in and of itself) at what point does the belief simply become a fallacy?  At what point does the "choice" to not vote become a choice with no quotes?   I personally would argue that we're already past that point, but then again, I tend to lean heavily on the personal responsibility side of the equation.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2014, 12:03:36 PM »
Well I think there are two different things working here. Obama getting elected certainly does negate some of the racial aspect of voter apathy, but not the other practical one. I don't vote because my vote simply doesn't matter. Even if Pete Sessions get's caught on video fucking underaged male goats, he will still win the congressional seat for my district. If Jesus himself ran as a democrat, he'd still not get Texas's 38 electoral votes. So while I can see how Obama might give some more hope to the black constituent, I don't know as it'll change a whole lot.

At the same time, I agree that there does need to be some personal responsibility there. There only being 3 black cops in Ferguson should concern them. Not because they won't get hired, obviously they will, but because there aren't enough people trying. Same I imagine with the local politic side.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2014, 12:17:39 PM »
Tales from Ferguson

Cliff's: Cops bust the wrong guy for an outstanding warrant. Confirm the mistake at the jail, but hold him anyway. When they don't like the way he asks for a mat to sleep on they handcuff and beat the shit out of him. Looking for a felony to charge him with, they file four charges of destruction of property for bleeding all over their uniforms.  :lol
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2014, 12:52:31 PM »
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What does the first part have to do with anything? And statistically speaking, more white people have the ability to go on tuesdays and vote. And when many elections are won by a few percentage difference, that makes an important difference.

It's directly relevant.  I don't know where you get your stat on "white person Tuesday", but the point was, when black communities (or any community for that matter) WANT to vote, they find a way.  Some of those communities in Atlanta get 100% turnout - on a Tuesday - from the black constituency.  I'm struggling to see how that translates into some disadvantage for blacks. 

But see, I was simply pointing out reasons why a black person may not have been able to vote. That doesn't say that it only applies to blacks, just that the results of an election may not (and usually don't, anymore) reflect the will of the people.


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Huh? Youre making my head hurt with all your circular logic. I also don't see how it matters one iota what color of skin the officials are. Lets talk about the policies and practices.

Aren't we talking about the latent racism in the system?  Doesn't that concern skin color?   It's not circular logic, it is straightforward:  If I am black, and I have a black candidate, and I don't vote for them, opting for the white candidate, how can I complain about the "racism" in the system?

Latent racism doesn't mean  there's a white guy going, "Fuck black people, they're inferior." It means the way in which the laws are enacted and enforced have unequal impact along racial lines. Plus, assuming the black guy would represent black people is absurd. He could advocate policies that most black people don't support or which arent helpful to most black people. Like Hermain Cain. Voting for the black guy because he's black is racist as well, so it does litttle to actually absolve the system of racism.

And more importantly, with the level of corruption in our system, just electing more blacks doesn't mean the system will change. It's not because of racism per say, more greed, but it helps perpetuate a system which unfairly harms blacks and other minorities moreso than whites.

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Nice obfuscation with percentages, which is a complete butchery of logic and statistics. More whites do crack-cocaine. We would then expect, in a fair system, for incarceration rates to be close to this reality. But we see the entire thing massively reversed, with more blacks being incarcerated for crack-cocaine. Could you tell me why you believe the percentages to matter?

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

There are more poor whites in America than blacks. Overall, its fairly similar in number, at about 5 million. If economics were a large factor, then we would expect there to be fairly similar incarceration number. We don't. Your hypothesis is factually wrong.

Stop.  There is no obfuscation.  To the first point, DOING crack cocaine and SELLING crack cocaine are very different matters.   Again, circumstantial evidence, I know, but the trial I was on, the defendant (for crack dealing charges, of which he was convicted FOUR prior times and yet was not in jail) and two co-conspirators were all black or Hispanic.  In EVERY picture purporting to show a "drug transaction" the defendant was seen talking to a white person.    I saw these with my own eyes.    So percentages matter, yes, but we have to be careful WHAT percentages we are talking about.   

And to show you I'm being fair, I'm going to point out your mistake, even though it helps your argument.   The "5 million" number is CHILDREN UNDER 18.    The total poverty numbers for whites are roughly 315,000,000 people times 63% white times 11% (rough poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites): 21.8 million.   The total poverty numbers for blacks are roughly 315,000,000 times 13% black times 27.5% (rough poverty rate for blacks): 11.2 million.   So there are actually about twice as many impoverished whites as there are blacks.  But here's the difference:  Over 70% of blacks in jail did not finish high school, compared with only about 10 to 15% whites.  High school graduation rates for blacks are at about 50%, whereas they are at about 80% for whites; dropout rates for blacks are about double that of whites.   We know unemployment for people without a high school degree is about double that of those with a high school degree (or better) and we know that wages for people without a high school degree are about half of those with a  high school degree (and a fraction of that of those with more than a high school degree).    Unless we want to argue that HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUT RATES ARE RACIST (which is possible, not arguing that, though we also know that the single greatest predictor of graduation rates is economics, not race) the chance of being in prison is far more likely an economic issue than a race issue.

Dismiss all of this as "obfuscation".  Your prerogative.   But if you're going to try to point fingers doesn't it make sense to do the work, put in the effort, and see if the simple statistics really reflect the reality?   


D'oh, I knew I should have just done the math, what I get for being lazy. Misread that table (obviously).

But why don't those people finish highschool? Often it's bad schools, which are underfunded and poorly staffed. That, and they see a broken system around them where getting their diploma won't do them as much good. They don't see the jobs or opportunities, and it creates a vicious cycle. More black people havinh a diploma wouldn't make more jobs are change the laws ofs scarcity, so in a sense, it's also pragmatically irrelevant as far as I can see.

Plus, like you said, you just undermined your own argument. More white people are poor. Therefor, more whites should be in prison for the same offenses if the main driving force were purely economic. Poor whites have just as much incentive to sell drugs as poor blacks, and there are a lot more of them. We should expect a higher percentage of blacks to be in prison than whites, given the statistics, but the prison population should reflect the society at large, and it doesn't, and by a long shot.

The problem was that I know the general facts, that more whites are poor than blacks, and so I was lazy in finding support for that when I needed it. Partly cause one-handed typing is aggravating, and the less I had to write, the more it pleased me.


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Like how last night in Ferguson was supposed to be worse?

I don't get the reference, I'm sorry.

People thought that removing the militarized police response would just allow looters and rioters to have a free for all. But what we saw was nothing of the sort, and that the looting and rioting was a response to the police. I'm suggesting that generally disarming the police would be like this, that when we escalate the situation by arming the police, we create the very problem we use as justification for the escalation. Like when people say drugs should be illegal because of gang violence and such, even though there's gang violence because it's illegal.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2014, 01:13:33 PM »
For me, it does the opposite. Well, not the video, but the fact that Johnson? is being so candid about the events. He's talking to the authorities and admitting to participating in a crime. He's sticking his neck out a little, telling the truth when it doesn't benefit him, and that to me says the rest of his story is more likely to be true.

And choking seems way hyperbolic. He shoved him. His actions aren't very good, but stealing a pack of cigars and shoving away someone is hardly the most violent thing, and is a FAR stretch from being violent or dangerous. He's a young kid, he's allowed to make some stupid decisions, and it doesn't make him dangerous or say anything about him getting shot.

Really....Johnson being candid about the events?  :lol He only admitted it was he and Brown AFTER faced with a video that captured him and Brown committing a crime. Nothing candid about that at all.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown

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“We see that there’s tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery,” said Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney. “We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos. He told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police.”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/attorney-confirms-that-is-his-client-and-michael-brown-in-surveillance-video/

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Freeman Bosley, Jr. told CNN’s Don Lemon that he did not believe Johnson “lied” when he neglected to tell the media about the incident in the convenience store. But when he and his client met with the FBI, they did tell them what had happened.

Wrong. The admission became PUBLIC after the release of the video, but that he was talking with the FBI and DOJ prior to the release of the video. How could he, when he didn't even see or know about the video?

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Sure the 'choke' wasn't MMA caliber but it was a shot to the throat area of a much smaller man....and not only that Brown then uses his enormous size to intimidate the victim even further by confidently strutting towards him.

Shoving is not choking, and even the police don't allege choking. Let's not make this into something it's not.

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Yeah he's a young kid but that doesn't pardon you from the consequences of your actions....it only makes those consequences tougher to take.

Never said otherwise, just that one documented case of taking some cigars, pushing someone, and walking out the door doesn't make someone some hard and fast criminal deserving of havinh his life ruined, thought of as a societal threat, and certainly not deserving of being shot.


Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2014, 01:17:18 PM »
Definitely more fitting in one of the 8 or so Guns Are Icky threads, but there are too many guns here now for that to work.
[/quote]

I'd say it plays into police brutality. And you can't fire a gun without bullets, so there is something that can be done. Australia is also a powerful counter example. But we can have that discussion elsewhere.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #157 on: August 17, 2014, 12:30:30 PM »
An eye witness to the shooting describing it to his buddy as his buddy filmed the scene after the shooting states that Brown "doubled back" on to the police after he got out of the truck and ran from them...even after he was being fired at. Nothing about having his hands raised in the air....nothing about him being 'executed'....only that Brown continued towards the police even after he was being shot at.......

Article:
A previously unnoticed detail in a background conversion of a video taken minutes after the Ferguson shooting could change the course of the investigation into Mike Brown’s death.

The original video poster appears sympathetic to the narrative that Mike Brown was shot unarmed with his hands in the air. But he unknowingly picks up conversation between a man who saw the altercation and another neighbor.

An approximate transcription of the background conversation, as related by the “Conservative Treehouse” blog:

@6:28/6:29 of video
#1 How’d he get from there to there?
#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck
{crosstalk}
#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him
{crosstalk}
#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –
#1. Oh, the police got his gun
#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him
{crosstalk}

#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing
#1 The Police?
#2 The Police shot him
#1 Police?
#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

This is terribly important because if Mike Brown had been shot, and he advanced towards the cop instead of surrendering, it would substantiate the narrative that the policeman shot in self-defense due to the fact that he was being threatened with severe bodily harm.

This corroborates an account of the event given by a friend of Officer Darren Wilson:

Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.”

It’s far too unlikely that these two accounts are similar accidentally, having been from such disparate sources. The seeming witness in the background conversation is speaking with detail about the tragic shooting, and in a manner that runs contrary to the widespread version. Those who watch the video need to judge for themselves if the witness sounds reliable (but he would seemingly have nothing to gain by telling such a story.)

A third piece of the puzzle would be the toxicology report. If there happens to be anything found that might explain how Mike Brown might have been shot and kept advancing toward the officer, then the defense becomes even more believable. Unless someone is emotionally invested in an alternative narrative to the extent that one might ignore plain facts.

We shall see.






Doesn't sound like the 'hands up' version of the story that the community and many media outlets have been continuously claiming. Sounds near identical to the account that the officer of the law said happened though........



Link:

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #158 on: August 17, 2014, 03:35:03 PM »
"He doubled back" and "But he kept coming towards him"doesn't mean Brown was running at him in a threatening manner. It could be slowly walking. It could be a shocked look at his face because he was just shot. It could be running at him in a threatening manner. Hell, it could be a verbal slip, and refer to the police offier. And the, "he like - be like-" could be Brown raising his hands in the air, it could be a lot of things. It's certainly not proof against the contentions of numerous other eyewitnesses, which corroborates each other. It's pretty hard for me to just throw away numerous eyewitnesses, who have been interviewed, including going on television, being public, talking to the DOJ and FBI and other numerous organizations - who most certainly will notice any inconsistency in Johnson story, if he is indeed lying as you imply, that's the great thing about a large record.

Look, I'm not saying the Police version isn't correct. I'll wait for a complete investigation on that matter. I'm arguing against the counter-argument being given. IJReview didn't interview the people being heard, they didn't get their story. They noticed some ambiguous dialogue, which would serve as a good place to start an investigation. I imagine in court, it wouldn't be allowed because it's hearsay. 


Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #159 on: August 17, 2014, 07:42:05 PM »
"He doubled back" and "But he kept coming towards him"doesn't mean Brown was running at him in a threatening manner.

You're absolutely correct....it doesn't mean that. I happen to think it does because of the fact that is what the officer said he did and the fact that 10 minutes earlier he used the same type of intimidating move on the store owner he just robbed. But sure I can agree that "doubled back" could mean something different.



It's certainly not proof against the contentions of numerous other eyewitnesses

That's exactly what this is....proof that a person who witnessed the entire event is recounting the same story that the police officer told and the opposite story of what other 'witnesses' have stated. This video was taken within minutes of that shooting and already the 'hands up' theme had begun to spread and the commentator rebuked that story by telling what he saw

It's pretty hard for me to just throw away numerous eyewitnesses, who have been interviewed, including going on television, being public, talking to the DOJ and FBI and other numerous organizations - who most certainly will notice any inconsistency in Johnson story, if he is indeed lying as you imply, that's the great thing about a large record.

Exactly. The problem as I see it is that the entire 'hands up' version of the story is the version that has been latched onto by social media...by celebrities....it's the one being re-tweeted and face booked and having tee shirts made without even being verified as truth. So, when the truth does hit and is made public and if it is different than the now famous 'hands up' Brown was doing nothing wrong version.....you're going to get a level of disbelief and cries of even more racism if that happens.....even if it is the actual truth. Because just as the officers account of the incident is just his version....this whole 'hands up' Brown was assasinated at this point is just as suspicious as the officers account....only it's being treated as cannon.


I imagine in court, it wouldn't be allowed because it's hearsay. 


I have no idea what the law says about this type of video. He's a witness essentially giving a statement. If they identify that person I see an issue getting him to actually testify and say what he did on that tape. When he said that....it was fresh....he was being honest and as the article mentioned...he had nothing to gain. Now, it's a national story and his entire community is in an uproar. We all saw the huge graffiti "Snitches get Stitches" sprayed on the walls of the looted and burned down Quick Trip. There is no way this guy would ever admit that was him or enter that same statment into record despite what the video suggests is exactly what he saw. But if I were a lawyer defending that officer (if it came to that) I'd certainly do all I could to get it admissable because it verifies his account to the tee.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #160 on: August 17, 2014, 11:12:13 PM »
It appears as if the story told by Dorian Johnson, the friend of the deceased and the supposed key witness, was a farce.  His story talked about how Brown was shot in the back, but the autopsy report shows that six bullets hit Brown, all of which were in the front.  In other words, he was not shot in the back once.

Meanwhile, things are getting bad in Ferguson again with the protesters, as some from the crowd are throwing shit at police officers and allegedly a gun was fired tonight, too. Like the guy on CNN said, when that happens, and you are facing a large crowd of angry protestors, you don't have the luxury of trying to figure out which one of the hundred in the crowd did it; you have to protect yourselves.  But we'll still have some saying the police are awful for being aggressive with protestors.

Honestly, while it's not their job, and they are dealing with so much already, but I think it would be awesome if Michael Brown's family spoke out very publicly, asking that all public protesting stop.  It's obvious that a few bad eggs are gonna make a mess out of it no mater what, and at some point you have to ask yourself: what is the end goal? 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #161 on: August 18, 2014, 08:14:30 AM »
Well I think there are two different things working here. Obama getting elected certainly does negate some of the racial aspect of voter apathy, but not the other practical one. I don't vote because my vote simply doesn't matter. Even if Pete Sessions get's caught on video fucking underaged male goats, he will still win the congressional seat for my district. If Jesus himself ran as a democrat, he'd still not get Texas's 38 electoral votes. So while I can see how Obama might give some more hope to the black constituent, I don't know as it'll change a whole lot.

At the same time, I agree that there does need to be some personal responsibility there. There only being 3 black cops in Ferguson should concern them. Not because they won't get hired, obviously they will, but because there aren't enough people trying. Same I imagine with the local politic side.

Maybe not here, maybe not now, but we should address that comment for a second.  The "my vote doesn't matter" comment.  It DOES matter, just not in the way that most people assume.  I will work on the assumption that you know the concept "the tragedy of the commons"? It's kind of this in reverse.    It sort of has to be measured not on an individual basis, but on the basis of "all the people that would vote as you do".   So in the context of "I'm in the minority" (as I am on many issues), maybe the notion that your vote can't change the direction of the ship immediately is true.   But if everyone that was on the losing side in any given election sat out, we would be in deep trouble as a collective. 

To that end, it is interesting to see the demographics of the elections from 2004, 2008, and 2012, and the differences between them.  I think it may not be a clear statement, but it hints at the concepts you are talking about, and having a black candidate at that level has certainly opened a level interest in certain demographics (NOT just blacks, either) that wasn't there before. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2014, 08:35:33 AM »
But see, I was simply pointing out reasons why a black person may not have been able to vote. That doesn't say that it only applies to blacks, just that the results of an election may not (and usually don't, anymore) reflect the will of the people.

And I totally understand that; but for it to be a reason that a BLACK person may not be able to vote (as opposed to any other demographic) it has to be exclusive to that demographic.  And none of those things are.  They are, frankly, all excuses, as proven by the two most recent Federal elections, where black turnout was equal to ('08) and exceeded ('12) white turnout.  What changed on that Tuesday? 

Quote
Latent racism doesn't mean  there's a white guy going, "Fuck black people, they're inferior." It means the way in which the laws are enacted and enforced have unequal impact along racial lines. Plus, assuming the black guy would represent black people is absurd. He could advocate policies that most black people don't support or which arent helpful to most black people. Like Hermain Cain. Voting for the black guy because he's black is racist as well, so it does litttle to actually absolve the system of racism.

And more importantly, with the level of corruption in our system, just electing more blacks doesn't mean the system will change. It's not because of racism per say, more greed, but it helps perpetuate a system which unfairly harms blacks and other minorities moreso than whites.

I understand what "latent" means.  ;)  I get the statistics, and there is some correlation with what you are saying but in my experience (I am not an expert, but my experience is not minor; I am certified in Six Sigma, which is a statistics-based analytical tool) one of the main problems with statistical analysis is not proving correlation, but rather proving cause and effect.  I have no doubt that certain laws and certain schema tend to impact blacks differently than other demographics, but as I have tried to show (poorly) it is often just as much if not more impactful to certain economic classes. 

And yes, of course electing the black candidate because he is black is "racist".  ANY time "skin color" is a factor EITHER way it is technically racist.   But, by way of example only, I point to Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter's comments on the night of the '08 election when interviewed following the concession by McCain:  "We have been waiting 400 years for this moment!!!!!!".   Uh, who's we and where did the "400 years" come from; at my count the US was 'in play' for about 232 years at that point...    please don't try and tell me there wasn't ONE VOTE for Obama that wasn't because he was black.  I don't claim that is the ONLY reason he was elected (it was, as I usually say, economics, even if the economics was totally wrong), but it IS a factor.   And if even those that WOULD vote for a black candidate because of his/her skin color don't bother, there is no answer for that other than APATHY, and not the kind that El Barto is talking about.

Quote
D'oh, I knew I should have just done the math, what I get for being lazy. Misread that table (obviously).

But why don't those people finish highschool? Often it's bad schools, which are underfunded and poorly staffed. That, and they see a broken system around them where getting their diploma won't do them as much good. They don't see the jobs or opportunities, and it creates a vicious cycle. More black people havinh a diploma wouldn't make more jobs are change the laws ofs scarcity, so in a sense, it's also pragmatically irrelevant as far as I can see.

Plus, like you said, you just undermined your own argument. More white people are poor. Therefor, more whites should be in prison for the same offenses if the main driving force were purely economic. Poor whites have just as much incentive to sell drugs as poor blacks, and there are a lot more of them. We should expect a higher percentage of blacks to be in prison than whites, given the statistics, but the prison population should reflect the society at large, and it doesn't, and by a long shot.

The problem was that I know the general facts, that more whites are poor than blacks, and so I was lazy in finding support for that when I needed it. Partly cause one-handed typing is aggravating, and the less I had to write, the more it pleased me.

Look no harm no foul on the mistake, we all make them, and it doesn't change your argument.  I get where you are coming from.   And yes I undermined my own argument, because the stats don't lie.   But, in a different sense, they do.   Read "Dumbing Down Our Schools" by Charles Sykes if you haven't already (by the way, to anyone here with a kid, you owe it to yourself and them to read that book.  You don't have to agree with all - or any - of it, but it will give you insight if you are looking to do the best you can by your kid re: education).  The single greatest PREDICTOR (remember, we're trying to dig deeper than just "correlation") of a student's success is not race, and it isn't even (directly) the economics of the schools (some of the poorest performing schools actually get some of the most funding, though admittedly sometimes there is a lag between the funding and the performance).   Grossly simplifying it is "what do the kids do over the summer".   Again, grossly simplifying, and this involved a multitude of factors, including economics, but generally speaking, the kids that stay "educationally focused" through the summer through reading lists, camps, etc. outperform those that "take the summer off". 

You can't really point to "race" here, unless you are willing to risk saying that some races are "lazier" than others.   I don't mean that literally, it's meant a little facetiously, but I am serious to the extent we are getting close to the area that is an untenable argument for me:  I don't doubt that some families have "given up" for many of the reasons stated here, but I don't think it is unfair to say that if you make a choice - regardless of how attractive (or not) the other choices are - you have to own your consequences. 


Quote
People thought that removing the militarized police response would just allow looters and rioters to have a free for all. But what we saw was nothing of the sort, and that the looting and rioting was a response to the police. I'm suggesting that generally disarming the police would be like this, that when we escalate the situation by arming the police, we create the very problem we use as justification for the escalation. Like when people say drugs should be illegal because of gang violence and such, even though there's gang violence because it's illegal.

Eh, I understand you now, but that is apples and oranges.   You are not dealing with a closed system in the latter case, and you have a TON of money involved which skews things dramatically.   And don't confuse a "militarized police response" with a general disarming. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2014, 08:45:10 AM »
"He doubled back" and "But he kept coming towards him"doesn't mean Brown was running at him in a threatening manner. It could be slowly walking. It could be a shocked look at his face because he was just shot. It could be running at him in a threatening manner. Hell, it could be a verbal slip, and refer to the police offier. And the, "he like - be like-" could be Brown raising his hands in the air, it could be a lot of things. It's certainly not proof against the contentions of numerous other eyewitnesses, which corroborates each other. It's pretty hard for me to just throw away numerous eyewitnesses, who have been interviewed, including going on television, being public, talking to the DOJ and FBI and other numerous organizations - who most certainly will notice any inconsistency in Johnson story, if he is indeed lying as you imply, that's the great thing about a large record.

Look, I'm not saying the Police version isn't correct. I'll wait for a complete investigation on that matter. I'm arguing against the counter-argument being given. IJReview didn't interview the people being heard, they didn't get their story. They noticed some ambiguous dialogue, which would serve as a good place to start an investigation. I imagine in court, it wouldn't be allowed because it's hearsay.

It could be all those things; but those things are SPECULATION.  ANY counter-argument at this point is specious and meaningless.   Not one of those facts should be taken on their own and out of the context of the conversation.   As for the throwing away of "numerous eyewitnesses" while I don't think it is the likeliest outcome, the notion that "buzz" went through the crowd saying "he was executed" and that there are people testifying to things they didn't actually see, but just heard about, is not totally out of the question (how many people CLAIM to have been at Woodstock?) 

And I'm not sure what you mean by "hearsay"; if that person takes the stand, if they testify to the "consensus" version, then the prosecution can introduce the background tape - to the extent that they can prove it is the same person speaking of the same events - and use it to impeach the initial testimony.   It just can't be used in lieu of the real witness. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2014, 08:49:15 AM »
6 shots, two in the head.  I see a lot of the noise on this going away now.   6 shots.  If he carries a revolver, he emptied it.  Into an unarmed person.


I'm sorry, but defending the cop at this point looks pretty silly.


6 shots.  6 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #165 on: August 18, 2014, 08:52:51 AM »
Honestly, while it's not their job, and they are dealing with so much already, but I think it would be awesome if Michael Brown's family spoke out very publicly, asking that all public protesting stop.  It's obvious that a few bad eggs are gonna make a mess out of it no mater what, and at some point you have to ask yourself: what is the end goal?

This will not at all be a popular statement, but not only do I agree with you on them making a statement, but if they don't I would pursue them for contributing to the rioting, for all the statements they made in the immediate aftermath that fanned the flames.  I get that they are grieving, but that doesn't entitle them to make up facts, or act as judge and jury before all the facts are in.  The initial comments regarding Brown being "executed" and "slaughtered" and "gunned down" were all from the family or those close to the family.   They wasted no time in hiring an attorney; that attorney should have IMMEDIATELY staged a press conference and stated the position of the family:  "We believe there to be two sides to this story, we believe in the goodness of our son Michael Brown, but we ask that all people stand down until the facts and evidence have been collected, analyzed and adjudicated on.  In the meantime, please respect our privacy."  At the same time that attorney should have called the police department or better yet the Attorney General and made it clear that they were staying out of the media on a temporary basis and only to keep peace, but that the SECOND there was a hint of bias, impropriety, or corruption, they were going nuclear and involving every media outlet they could find.   

They did not do that. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2014, 08:57:48 AM »
I think you're trying too hard and it's starting to become pretty obvious.   Now the family of the guy who was shot dead are at fault for the rioting that has taken place? 


More victim blaming. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2014, 09:01:36 AM »
6 shots, two in the head.  I see a lot of the noise on this going away now.   6 shots.  If he carries a revolver, he emptied it.  Into an unarmed person.


I'm sorry, but defending the cop at this point looks pretty silly.


6 shots.  6

Him being unarmed is meaningless.  Given the size of Brown - 6'3'' and nearly 300 lbs - if he was charging back at the officer, who was much smaller and had taken somewhat of a pounding in the car reportedly from Brown, then he may have had no choice.  6 shots may have been excessive, yes, but remember that this is in the heat of the moment, and it is very possible the cop feared for his life.  Plus, there is this:

Some commentary (which I read elsewhere) on "lethal force" by lawofficer.com reveals two interesting takeaways:

• The suspect must be a lethal threat or reasonably perceived as one.
An individual does NOT need to be armed to be reasonably considered a lethal threat. This is taught in self defense firearm classes as well as LEO training. In personal self defense cases they look for Capacity and Intent to do lethal harm. I can't speak to the baseline for LEO.
 
• A minimum number of officers fire a minimum number of rounds.
Minimum number of rounds is highly subjective. In the heat of the moment, its tough to expect an officer to fire, wait to assess the threat, fire again, etc. I think it's reasonable to expect any shooting to be done in bursts...particularly if the threat is immediate.  In this case the officer emptied about 1/3 to half of his magazine into the suspect. IF it turns out the suspect was charging him, I'm not sure thats easy to prove as excessive against a man of this size.


This will not at all be a popular statement, but not only do I agree with you on them making a statement, but if they don't I would pursue them for contributing to the rioting, for all the statements they made in the immediate aftermath that fanned the flames.  I get that they are grieving, but that doesn't entitle them to make up facts, or act as judge and jury before all the facts are in.  The initial comments regarding Brown being "executed" and "slaughtered" and "gunned down" were all from the family or those close to the family.   They wasted no time in hiring an attorney; that attorney should have IMMEDIATELY staged a press conference and stated the position of the family:  "We believe there to be two sides to this story, we believe in the goodness of our son Michael Brown, but we ask that all people stand down until the facts and evidence have been collected, analyzed and adjudicated on.  In the meantime, please respect our privacy."  At the same time that attorney should have called the police department or better yet the Attorney General and made it clear that they were staying out of the media on a temporary basis and only to keep peace, but that the SECOND there was a hint of bias, impropriety, or corruption, they were going nuclear and involving every media outlet they could find.   

They did not do that.

Okay, but like I said last night, that is not their job.  Yes, it would be awesome if they would do that, but it's neither their job nor their responsibility.  They are not responsible for an entire city protesting and some of them acting like fools.

Jackasses like Al Sharpton should be doing more to calm the community.  He was supposedly hanging out at the casino downtown the other night when the protesting was hitting a fever pitch.  Of course.  He came to town to race bait, stir up the masses, and hopefully benefit from it some fashion, while bailing when the going got tough.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 09:11:26 AM by KevShmev »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2014, 09:03:36 AM »
6 shots, two in the head.  I see a lot of the noise on this going away now.   6 shots.  If he carries a revolver, he emptied it.  Into an unarmed person.


I'm sorry, but defending the cop at this point looks pretty silly.


6 shots.  6

Two witnesses have now said that even after the cop started firing, Brown kept advancing on him.  One witness made the point of saying in so many words that he couldn't tell if the cop was missing or not, as Brown CONTINUED to advance on him even as he fired.   It is not silly at all to wait for due process to take its course and see if in fact the cop (or his partner) could tell if any of the six found their target. 

The concepts involved in a shooting like this are not evaluated with the benefit of hindsight, but rather what was going through the mind of the actors at the time of the incident.  If the cop is still shooting and Brown was still advancing (we have clear statement on whether Brown registered impact of the shots; as noted one witness indicated that he couldn't tell if the cop was missing or not) then it is not unreasonable to think that not only did the cop still think he was in danger, but that the danger was increasing as Brown got nearer. 

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2014, 09:18:11 AM »
A local reporter/radio show personality was 'live tweeting' last night from Ferguson. He mentioned that there were (2) very clear groups of people forming in the large crowds of folks in Ferguson throughout the evening heading into the night. There were people there to rally/protest and there were people there to loot and riot. Even the Higway Patrol Captain came out this morning after 7 more people were arrested last night and one person being shot and said that the rioting last night was not random....that it was calculated and systematic.

I think that our Governor did a horrible disservice to the situation by buckling to political and social pressure and removing the St. Louis County police who were doing their job....effectively signaling to the rioters that Law enforcement and leadership was weak. All the outcry about the County being 'militarized' and over stepping their authority was a joke because the Highway Patrol was forced to do the exact same thing when faced with the exact same set of circustances ie (flaming bottles being thrown at them, guns being fired at them, people being shot, businesses being looted)...oh...what's the word for that....oh yeah Rioting. Police tend to put on riot gear and respond with tear gas and force when facing rioters. Now, the Governor....who accused the St. Louis County police of being too forceful has ordered the National Guard in to help try and get control of the situation.

It appears as if the story told by Dorian Johnson, the friend of the deceased and the supposed key witness, was a farce.  His story talked about how Brown was shot in the back, but the autopsy report shows that six bullets hit Brown, all of which were in the front.  In other words, he was not shot in the back once.

It's not going to matter what the actual evidence proves in this case. The police officer has already been villified and convicted in the media. Even as alternate accounts of what happen surface that conflict with the now famous 'hands up' version and autopsy reports come back that conflict with the 'key' witnesees statement.....public opinion has been set in place and that is going to trump the truth....if the truth happens to turn out to be the officers account.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2014, 09:26:53 AM »
6 shots, two in the head.  I see a lot of the noise on this going away now.   6 shots.  If he carries a revolver, he emptied it.  Into an unarmed person.


I'm sorry, but defending the cop at this point looks pretty silly.


6 shots.  6

Two witnesses have now said that even after the cop started firing, Brown kept advancing on him.  One witness made the point of saying in so many words that he couldn't tell if the cop was missing or not, as Brown CONTINUED to advance on him even as he fired.   It is not silly at all to wait for due process to take its course and see if in fact the cop (or his partner) could tell if any of the six found their target. 

The concepts involved in a shooting like this are not evaluated with the benefit of hindsight, but rather what was going through the mind of the actors at the time of the incident.  If the cop is still shooting and Brown was still advancing (we have clear statement on whether Brown registered impact of the shots; as noted one witness indicated that he couldn't tell if the cop was missing or not) then it is not unreasonable to think that not only did the cop still think he was in danger, but that the danger was increasing as Brown got nearer.

If that's the real story, that 'key witness' is just as responsible for fanning these flames as the parents.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2014, 09:30:24 AM »
People thought that removing the militarized police response would just allow looters and rioters to have a free for all. But what we saw was nothing of the sort, and that the looting and rioting was a response to the police. I'm suggesting that generally disarming the police would be like this, that when we escalate the situation by arming the police, we create the very problem we use as justification for the escalation. Like when people say drugs should be illegal because of gang violence and such, even though there's gang violence because it's illegal.
Looks like the calm and friendly approach didn't work as well as it seemed. Everybody played nice for one night, and then there was looting and rioting. Now we've had two nights of marshal law and tonight the national guard will be there, and they will be militarized.


6 shots, two in the head.  I see a lot of the noise on this going away now.   6 shots.  If he carries a revolver, he emptied it.  Into an unarmed person.


I'm sorry, but defending the cop at this point looks pretty silly.


6 shots.  6 
Nonsense. The cop or anybody else will keep firing until the threat ceases, and plenty of people will remain a genuine threat after multiple gunshots.


6 shots, two in the head.  I see a lot of the noise on this going away now.   6 shots.  If he carries a revolver, he emptied it.  Into an unarmed person.


I'm sorry, but defending the cop at this point looks pretty silly.


6 shots.  6
The concepts involved in a shooting like this are not evaluated with the benefit of hindsight, but rather what was going through the mind of the actors at the time of the incident.  If the cop is still shooting and Brown was still advancing (we have clear statement on whether Brown registered impact of the shots; as noted one witness indicated that he couldn't tell if the cop was missing or not) then it is not unreasonable to think that not only did the cop still think he was in danger, but that the danger was increasing as Brown got nearer. 
This is true, but it's also part of the problem. It's really a pretty low bar for OIS cases. It'll clear Johnny in the case, which is quite possibly the correct result, but it will also continue to clear a whole lot of really shitty cops and their actions. Remember, this is what cleared the assholes who beat Kelly Thomas to death.



If that's the real story, that 'key witness' is just as responsible for fanning these flames as the parents.
Absolutely. And plenty of others.


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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #172 on: August 18, 2014, 09:32:44 AM »
Gary, that is sad, but true.  No matter what the truth ends up being, there will be people who will never believe it.   

Chino, Dorian Johnson appears to have given a false statement, and given that he was once charged with that, it makes sense now why he was avoiding talking to the police and going to the media with his fabricated story; he didn't want to get charged again with lying to the police.  In that regard, he is a real piece of shit, as he basically fanned the flames and then poured gasoline on them with his fake story.  Pretty disgusting.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #173 on: August 18, 2014, 09:35:15 AM »
Honestly, while it's not their job, and they are dealing with so much already, but I think it would be awesome if Michael Brown's family spoke out very publicly, asking that all public protesting stop.  It's obvious that a few bad eggs are gonna make a mess out of it no mater what, and at some point you have to ask yourself: what is the end goal?

This will not at all be a popular statement, but not only do I agree with you on them making a statement, but if they don't I would pursue them for contributing to the rioting, for all the statements they made in the immediate aftermath that fanned the flames.  I get that they are grieving, but that doesn't entitle them to make up facts, or act as judge and jury before all the facts are in.  The initial comments regarding Brown being "executed" and "slaughtered" and "gunned down" were all from the family or those close to the family.   They wasted no time in hiring an attorney; that attorney should have IMMEDIATELY staged a press conference and stated the position of the family:  "We believe there to be two sides to this story, we believe in the goodness of our son Michael Brown, but we ask that all people stand down until the facts and evidence have been collected, analyzed and adjudicated on.  In the meantime, please respect our privacy."  At the same time that attorney should have called the police department or better yet the Attorney General and made it clear that they were staying out of the media on a temporary basis and only to keep peace, but that the SECOND there was a hint of bias, impropriety, or corruption, they were going nuclear and involving every media outlet they could find.   

They did not do that.
Add to that, their attorney (who makes Bush sound like fucking Hemingway), is doing the same thing by bullshitting everyone with the autopsy reports. I get that it's his job, but he's not helping anybody but himself. He's claiming that the report corroborates the eye witness testimony, which I guess is true if you interview everybody and only go with the one you want. It refutes the testimony of the two people that were there, though.

And seriously, how can somebody that inarticulate graduate high school, college, and law school? I wouldn't want the guy working the counter of my 7-11 with speech skills so poor.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #174 on: August 18, 2014, 09:44:47 AM »
Chino, Dorian Johnson appears to have given a false statement, and given that he was once charged with that, it makes sense now why he was avoiding talking to the police and going to the media with his fabricated story; he didn't want to get charged again with lying to the police.  In that regard, he is a real piece of shit, as he basically fanned the flames and then poured gasoline on them with his fake story.  Pretty disgusting.

That says a lot about the guy's intelligence. "I've got an idea. I am going to go on national TV and lie through my teeth about the biggest story in country. No one is ever going to find out". It also takes a lot of balls to rob a place, and then voluntarily go on TV a day later. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 09:57:11 AM by Chino »