Author Topic: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations  (Read 3128 times)

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Online axeman90210

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #245 on: October 04, 2018, 12:50:58 PM »
I'm less bothered by them not contacting her, but moreso by them not contacting any of the people she/her lawyers reached out to the FBI with.

Given the GOP's overall attitude towards this whole thing (McConnell's comment about how they're going to plow ahead with Kavanaugh before we even had the hearing, the short time frame of the investigation, the apparent limit on who could be contacted and what could be looked into) this definitely feels more like an attempt to give Republicans cover for voting yes than any kind of serious inquiry into things.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #246 on: October 04, 2018, 12:54:49 PM »
I keep seeing that many, including Dr. Ford's lawyers, are complaining that the FBI did not contact her and interview her as part of the continued investigation.  I don't understand that because:
1.  I thought she REALLY didn't want to be involved at all.  Why more involvement?
2.  She was given an opportunity to say anything and everything she needed to say during her opening statement, asked lots of questions by both sides of the Committee, and allowed an opportunity to say anything else in her closing.  There is no need for the FBI to contact her if everything relevant is already out on the table.

This seems like more partisan grandstanding to me.  What am I missing?

Nothing. She had her say, I didn't see any reason for her or Brett to be re-examined.







@Stads, I agree with a lot of what you said, the thing in that article that really caught my attention was his opinion, as a friend and contemporary of Brett's , of his behavior and how out of character he was for the man he is. He knew he was gonna get grilled on the tough issues, and he panicked. And, he knew he was gonna get laid into for his drinking and went psycho defensive (seen it a million times in the 12 step programs, it follows a script). Those are the things that stand out to me personally. In a certain IQ song there's a line that says "these are the lives we are measured by...", and we try to uphold positions on the court, the presidency, and congress as ideals of what we should be. For me, he falls far short of this. Legally this of course has no impact on the confirmation, but it does make me lose some faith in my government.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #247 on: October 04, 2018, 01:01:20 PM »
I keep seeing that many, including Dr. Ford's lawyers, are complaining that the FBI did not contact her and interview her as part of the continued investigation.  I don't understand that because:
1.  I thought she REALLY didn't want to be involved at all.  Why more involvement?
2.  She was given an opportunity to say anything and everything she needed to say during her opening statement, asked lots of questions by both sides of the Committee, and allowed an opportunity to say anything else in her closing.  There is no need for the FBI to contact her if everything relevant is already out on the table.

This seems like more partisan grandstanding to me.  What am I missing?
Point 2 I agree with. She's testified and the FBI knows her story. Point 1 is silly. I didn't want to come to work this morning, but now that I'm here I'm doing my job. Once she became involved she presumably became committed to being involved. Honestly, even mentioning it the way you did sounds like partisan grandstanding to me.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #248 on: October 04, 2018, 01:06:01 PM »
I'm less bothered by them not contacting her, but moreso by them not contacting any of the people she/her lawyers reached out to the FBI with.

But why?  The investigation was supposed to be limited in scope to the allegations relating to Dr. Ford.  Therefore, the universe of witnesses should by design have been limited to those disclosed in her testimony (and his, if any).  They talked to all of those.  If the FBI did not deem it necessary or appropriate to contact other witnesses outside of that, what is the problem?  I don't see the need for them to go off on tangents, especially given that he has been vetted SEVERAL times before this.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #249 on: October 04, 2018, 03:40:15 PM »
So, apparently, several senators have said 10 witnesses were interviewed for the FBI report, and the report is apparently about 50 pages long.  I know Dems are saying the scope was too limited and the White House tied the FBI's hands and did not let them do their job, but I'm not sure that is the case.  Given the scope of what they had to look into, 10 witnesses is far more than I thought they would interview.  It's just so hard to know what to believe as long as everyone is playing games.  If the Right deliberately prevented the FBI from looking at things they SHOULD be looking at, that is unconscionable, and they need to tap the brakes and wait for more to be looked into.  On the other hand, he has been thoroughly vetted several times over already, so it makes sense to keep this limited and keep things moving.  And since the Left is also acting unconscionably in encouraging the dredging up of dirt, no matter how unrelated or unsubstantiated, any delay permits them to do more harm to the process.  So, yeah, thanks, Government, for making a mess of this.
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Online TAC

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #250 on: October 04, 2018, 04:56:38 PM »
That's how I feel.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #251 on: October 04, 2018, 07:08:46 PM »
I will only say that the FBI is not required to track down any and all witnesses that one of the parties throws on the table.  There are numerous ways in which the FBI could have taken those names and ruled them out, deemed them irrelevant, or have been told by them (not Ford or her attorneys) that they have nothing new to offer.

The Dems complaining about this is like me going to Emeril's restaurant, asking for the ribeye, then when it arrives, saying "but I really wanted filet mignon."

Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #252 on: October 04, 2018, 07:18:07 PM »
Not a small point:  many indications are that the general population is rejecting the "RESIST!" tactics; several races - including two key ones, one in Arizona and one in North Dakota - have seen recent - within the last day or so - swings significantly in favor of the Republican candidates.  Ironically, in that ND race, many pundits are saying that the only hope the Democratic candidate - Heitkamp - has is to confirm Kavanaugh.

I can't speak for Arizona, but living in ND at the moment, this place is SUPER pro-Trump and republican. I doubt it has much to do with any resistance movements. If you never had any resist tactics, ND would still be very pro-Trump and republican.

Maybe so, but a) these are not the only two races showing this, and b) a seat is a seat.  If they were "heavily Republican" or not, they had a seat occupied by a Democrat.  That may not be the case in another month or so.   The goal is a Blue Wave that takes the Senate, and the fever dream is a Wave that takes the House as well.  That dream will not be realized by trading off seats.

Online El Barto

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #253 on: October 04, 2018, 07:28:51 PM »
Not a small point:  many indications are that the general population is rejecting the "RESIST!" tactics; several races - including two key ones, one in Arizona and one in North Dakota - have seen recent - within the last day or so - swings significantly in favor of the Republican candidates.  Ironically, in that ND race, many pundits are saying that the only hope the Democratic candidate - Heitkamp - has is to confirm Kavanaugh.

I can't speak for Arizona, but living in ND at the moment, this place is SUPER pro-Trump and republican. I doubt it has much to do with any resistance movements. If you never had any resist tactics, ND would still be very pro-Trump and republican.

Maybe so, but a) these are not the only two races showing this, and b) a seat is a seat.  If they were "heavily Republican" or not, they had a seat occupied by a Democrat.  That may not be the case in another month or so.   The goal is a Blue Wave that takes the Senate, and the fever dream is a Wave that takes the House as well.  That dream will not be realized by trading off seats.
Other way around. Democrats stand a pretty good chance of taking the House. The Senate is a huge longshot.

That's why this strategy never made much sense to me.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #254 on: October 04, 2018, 08:18:30 PM »
Not a small point:  many indications are that the general population is rejecting the "RESIST!" tactics; several races - including two key ones, one in Arizona and one in North Dakota - have seen recent - within the last day or so - swings significantly in favor of the Republican candidates.  Ironically, in that ND race, many pundits are saying that the only hope the Democratic candidate - Heitkamp - has is to confirm Kavanaugh.

I can't speak for Arizona, but living in ND at the moment, this place is SUPER pro-Trump and republican. I doubt it has much to do with any resistance movements. If you never had any resist tactics, ND would still be very pro-Trump and republican.

Maybe so, but a) these are not the only two races showing this, and b) a seat is a seat.  If they were "heavily Republican" or not, they had a seat occupied by a Democrat.  That may not be the case in another month or so.   The goal is a Blue Wave that takes the Senate, and the fever dream is a Wave that takes the House as well.  That dream will not be realized by trading off seats.
Other way around. Democrats stand a pretty good chance of taking the House. The Senate is a huge longshot.

That's why this strategy never made much sense to me.

Well, that's the Nate Silver projection; something like over 70% likelihood of Dems taking the House, something like 20% chance of taking the Senate, but - and far be it for me to question Nate Silver - but I think that's wildly optimistic on the House side.  Then again, I'm not really up on the House, so I could well be very wrong (and I'm certainly not confident enough to argue with you about it).   Regardless, it's trending away from that outcome, and like you said, the strategy doesn't seem to make sense in that light.

Online El Barto

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #255 on: October 05, 2018, 08:34:53 AM »
Not a small point:  many indications are that the general population is rejecting the "RESIST!" tactics; several races - including two key ones, one in Arizona and one in North Dakota - have seen recent - within the last day or so - swings significantly in favor of the Republican candidates.  Ironically, in that ND race, many pundits are saying that the only hope the Democratic candidate - Heitkamp - has is to confirm Kavanaugh.

I can't speak for Arizona, but living in ND at the moment, this place is SUPER pro-Trump and republican. I doubt it has much to do with any resistance movements. If you never had any resist tactics, ND would still be very pro-Trump and republican.

Maybe so, but a) these are not the only two races showing this, and b) a seat is a seat.  If they were "heavily Republican" or not, they had a seat occupied by a Democrat.  That may not be the case in another month or so.   The goal is a Blue Wave that takes the Senate, and the fever dream is a Wave that takes the House as well.  That dream will not be realized by trading off seats.
Other way around. Democrats stand a pretty good chance of taking the House. The Senate is a huge longshot.

That's why this strategy never made much sense to me.

Well, that's the Nate Silver projection; something like over 70% likelihood of Dems taking the House, something like 20% chance of taking the Senate, but - and far be it for me to question Nate Silver - but I think that's wildly optimistic on the House side.  Then again, I'm not really up on the House, so I could well be very wrong (and I'm certainly not confident enough to argue with you about it).   Regardless, it's trending away from that outcome, and like you said, the strategy doesn't seem to make sense in that light.
Three more things will happen between now and election day that moves the needle a git. The acrimony over the nomination will be nacient history.

Historically the electorate doesn't like keeping all of the power with one party for very long. Particularly with an unpopular president. Of course we're in an era where history doesn't seem to tell us anything, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Americans wanted some kind of check on the monarchy. Controlling the House would be enough to scuttle things like the new EPA provisions that radiation is good for us.  :lol

At this point the democrats need to tactfully resign themselves to Bart and simply use it as a motivational tool going forward. Frankly, the republicans should be looking for a way to drag this thing on that they can pin on the democrats.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #256 on: October 05, 2018, 09:03:41 AM »
Three more things will happen between now and election day that moves the needle a git. The acrimony over the nomination will be nacient history.

Historically the electorate doesn't like keeping all of the power with one party for very long. Particularly with an unpopular president. Of course we're in an era where history doesn't seem to tell us anything, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Americans wanted some kind of check on the monarchy. Controlling the House would be enough to scuttle things like the new EPA provisions that radiation is good for us.  :lol

At this point the democrats need to tactfully resign themselves to Bart and simply use it as a motivational tool going forward. Frankly, the republicans should be looking for a way to drag this thing on that they can pin on the democrats.

That's a pretty good post all around.  I'm certainly in agreement with respect to the time aspect of all this; there WILL be more things in the month ahead, and given that public opinion is even moderately on the Republicans side now, you wonder why they didn't try to run the sideline a little more.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #257 on: October 05, 2018, 02:15:47 PM »
Justice Kavanaugh.

Offline Adami

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #258 on: October 05, 2018, 02:18:42 PM »
Republicans V Democrats: Dawn of Justice Kavanaugh.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #259 on: October 05, 2018, 02:22:13 PM »
I like how this vote is mirroring how coverage of the general presidential election ends up: All everyone is focusing on is how two or three Senators will vote. They are the Senatorial equivalent of Ohio and Florida.

Anyway, just saw the update. I guess abortion will now be illegal, at least that's what my leftie friends are telling me. Because that is apparently the only thing they seem to care about with regards to SCOTUS.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #260 on: October 05, 2018, 09:08:15 PM »
People don't like having rights taken away. Film at eleven.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #261 on: October 05, 2018, 10:21:07 PM »
I like how this vote is mirroring how coverage of the general presidential election ends up: All everyone is focusing on is how two or three Senators will vote. They are the Senatorial equivalent of Ohio and Florida.

Anyway, just saw the update. I guess abortion will now be illegal, at least that's what my leftie friends are telling me. Because that is apparently the only thing they seem to care about with regards to SCOTUS.

Your lefty friends are selling you a bill of goods.   It takes FIVE justices to make abortion illegal, and three of the so-called "conservative" justices that would have to join Kavanaugh were the primary drafters of the Planned Parenthood case, which, among other things unequivocally reaffirmed Roe V. Wade.   Even if, by some paradox of time and space that Roe is overturned, it would not likely rescind the fundamental right, but rather push the responsibility to the states to provide legislation.   In the history of the United States, a fundamental right has been rescinded exactly ONCE, and that was the "fundamental right to contract", and it only lasted I think five years, max.  Roe has been the law of the land now for 45 years, it has been reaffirmed at least twice, and the principle that led to Roe has been the law of the land for almost 55 years, and IT has been reaffirmed too many times to count.

This is fear mongering. 

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #262 on: October 06, 2018, 12:42:26 AM »
I'm old enough to remember when Harriet Miers had to remove her candidacy because people thought she wouldn't be tough enough on abortion and gay rights.

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #263 on: October 06, 2018, 05:07:48 AM »
Justice Kavanaugh.

Yup, it's in the bag.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #264 on: October 06, 2018, 05:45:35 AM »
Sad day for America.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #265 on: October 06, 2018, 09:36:35 AM »
Sad day for America.

Absolutely true, without question.    Of course, it depends entirely on how you mean it and to whom it's directed.  I'm confident that we have fairly different explanations why.  (Hint:  Kavanaugh isn't even in the top five.)

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #266 on: October 06, 2018, 09:51:19 AM »
Nope.

Counterpoint: President Trump.

Oh my sweet summer child.

People don't like having rights taken away. Film at eleven.

Sad day for America.

Your posts give such food for thought. :lol :P

Online El Barto

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #267 on: October 06, 2018, 12:12:33 PM »
I like how this vote is mirroring how coverage of the general presidential election ends up: All everyone is focusing on is how two or three Senators will vote. They are the Senatorial equivalent of Ohio and Florida.

Anyway, just saw the update. I guess abortion will now be illegal, at least that's what my leftie friends are telling me. Because that is apparently the only thing they seem to care about with regards to SCOTUS.

Your lefty friends are selling you a bill of goods.   It takes FIVE justices to make abortion illegal, and three of the so-called "conservative" justices that would have to join Kavanaugh were the primary drafters of the Planned Parenthood case, which, among other things unequivocally reaffirmed Roe V. Wade.   Even if, by some paradox of time and space that Roe is overturned, it would not likely rescind the fundamental right, but rather push the responsibility to the states to provide legislation.   In the history of the United States, a fundamental right has been rescinded exactly ONCE, and that was the "fundamental right to contract", and it only lasted I think five years, max.  Roe has been the law of the land now for 45 years, it has been reaffirmed at least twice, and the principle that led to Roe has been the law of the land for almost 55 years, and IT has been reaffirmed too many times to count.

This is missing the point.
You're correct that Roe won't be touched. It doesn't need to be. Casey is what will get the axe and Roe will no longer matter. If Kansas enacts a law prohibiting abortion beyond seven days from conception do you really think they'd strike it down? You can be the optimist if you wish, but I think you really know that strict scrutiny won't apply, and undue burdens will be accepted.

As we've discussed before, legality is a concept without much real practical usefulness.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Kavanaugh confirmation and allegations
« Reply #268 on: October 06, 2018, 01:17:14 PM »
Your posts give such food for thought. :lol :P

Not really, no.