Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 38696 times)

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Offline KevShmev

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 08:53:02 AM »
Police brutality:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/18-year-old-shot-dead-missouri-witnesses-article-1.1898333

Anyone who even gives half a shit about due process and waiting until all the facts are in before making any conclusions would be sickened to the point of nausea at that article.    "Slaughtered", "gunned down", "executed"...   good thing we're going to wait until the "lengthy investigation" to find out what really happened.   For all the talk of "inncocent" and "unarmed" and "for no reason", you'll notice buried way down in the third article it says that Brown WAS in the custody of the police (he was allegedly in the car) and that a disturbance "spilled out of the car into the street", culminating with the boy being shot.  So if there is a conflict between two people, and one gets hurt, hard to see how that is de facto "no reason".  Not saying he deserved to die - no one does - but let's not burn the cop at the stake just yet, okay?

It is equally as likely, at this point, that this is a case of very bad judgment on the part of one individual who just happens to be a police officer as opposed to "police brutality".  But that doesn't matter when there's free TVs to be had!!!!

Oh, and it only took, what, 48 hours for Al Sharpton to show up on the scene?

Forgive me if I don't share the outrage.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 09:00:49 AM »
Well, Sharpton is a horrible human being, who always looks to take advantage of any situation involving race, so I won't be defending him.

Regardless of the way it has been overstated, the murder of this young man is a tragedy, and from the eyewitness reports, it sounds very bad.  Call it bad judgment or police brutality, but either way, it resulted in a death.

Read this: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

Regarding the looting, my stance on that is that the great majority of looters are knuckleheads who just look for any excuse to do something stupid like that. Kind of like when people riot in cities where a team just won a sports championship. There is no sensible rationale behind it; it's just criminals taking advantage of a situation to do their worst.  Hence, them going from small city to small city in the area and looting some more, and morons on social media riling them up don't help.

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 09:04:20 AM »
Surprising though this may be, I tend to give a whole lot of deference to coppers when things like this occur. If this knucklehead started a wrestling match with the cop then Johnny gets a whole lot of leeway in this one. That said, I'm still quite curious if there was a shell casing in the car, and where the entry wounds were. I don't see anything that suggests this would be in line with Garner and if he did plug this kid running away I hope they string him up (which of course they won't).
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 09:05:19 AM »

Yeah, nothing to be outraged about when an unarmed kid gets waxed on the street.

Offline Chino

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 09:11:51 AM »

Yeah, nothing to be outraged about when an unarmed kid gets waxed on the street.

If the unarmed kid was beating a police officer and going for his gun in an attempt to arm himself, the cop has to act. I don't know if this was the case of not, but just because he was unarmed doesn't mean he wasn't a threat.

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 09:18:21 AM »
We had an interesting and similar case down here a couple of years ago. Terrible part of town. Johnny is trying to bust a doper. Doper belts him a couple of time and then bolts out the back. Foot chase ensues and carries on for a mile or two. At a couple of points during the chase the kid turns and wallops Johnny again before resuming flight. After about the third time Johnny double-tapped him. His explanation, which I considered perfectly sound, was that after 1-2 miles of running and fighting he was completely exhausted and had absolutely no fight left in him. He was convinced that he'd wind up on the losing end of a 4th altercation and opted to stop it before he began. While there was no rioting, it came very close, despite the fact that in the situation shooting an unarmed man was perfectly reasonable.

Also, the reason there was no rioting in that instance is because a local and well respected preacher showed up and calmed the crowd. Just because Sharpton is a troublemaking douchebag, frequently on the wrong side of the facts, doesn't mean that he can't help out or even be right once in a while. Even morons get one right every once in a while. It's too easy to dismiss the guy due to past stupidity.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 09:28:56 AM »

Yeah, nothing to be outraged about when an unarmed kid gets waxed on the street.

If the unarmed kid was beating a police officer and going for his gun in an attempt to arm himself, the cop has to act. I don't know if this was the case of not, but just because he was unarmed doesn't mean he wasn't a threat.

Agreed.  Also, if the victim went for the cop's gun, and then when he got away, maybe he was making a movement that looked like he was going for a weapon of his own.  You can't know ahead of time if someone is armed or not, and if you wait, you might be dead.  These are just hypotheticals, but I just hate that kind of "an unarmed man was executed on the street" rhetoric, as it exaggerates what is already a terrible event.  But if the cop was totally in the wrong, and they can prove it, I hope he rots in prison.

We had an interesting and similar case down here a couple of years ago. Terrible part of town. Johnny is trying to bust a doper. Doper belts him a couple of time and then bolts out the back. Foot chase ensues and carries on for a mile or two. At a couple of points during the chase the kid turns and wallops Johnny again before resuming flight. After about the third time Johnny double-tapped him. His explanation, which I considered perfectly sound, was that after 1-2 miles of running and fighting he was completely exhausted and had absolutely no fight left in him. He was convinced that he'd wind up on the losing end of a 4th altercation and opted to stop it before he began. While there was no rioting, it came very close, despite the fact that in the situation shooting an unarmed man was perfectly reasonable.

Also, the reason there was no rioting in that instance is because a local and well respected preacher showed up and calmed the crowd. Just because Sharpton is a troublemaking douchebag, frequently on the wrong side of the facts, doesn't mean that he can't help out or even be right once in a while. Even morons get one right every once in a while. It's too easy to dismiss the guy due to past stupidity.

That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.


Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 09:33:25 AM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 09:37:28 AM »
Regarding the looting, my stance on that is that the great majority of looters are knuckleheads who just look for any excuse to do something stupid like that. Kind of like when people riot in cities where a team just won a sports championship. There is no sensible rationale behind it; it's just criminals taking advantage of a situation to do their worst.  Hence, them going from small city to small city in the area and looting some more, and morons on social media riling them up don't help.

Those individuals are acting out of real problems and issues. To simply dismiss them as criminals ignores the system they are protesting against. This specific case may not even be the best example, but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2014, 09:40:06 AM »
Regarding the looting, my stance on that is that the great majority of looters are knuckleheads who just look for any excuse to do something stupid like that. Kind of like when people riot in cities where a team just won a sports championship. There is no sensible rationale behind it; it's just criminals taking advantage of a situation to do their worst.  Hence, them going from small city to small city in the area and looting some more, and morons on social media riling them up don't help.

Those individuals are acting out of real problems and issues. To simply dismiss them as criminals ignores the system they are protesting against. This specific case may not even be the best example, but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.
Real issues like lack of fortified wine.



Fantastic action shot, BTW. Great photography.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2014, 09:50:54 AM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.

Fair enough.

Regarding the looting, my stance on that is that the great majority of looters are knuckleheads who just look for any excuse to do something stupid like that. Kind of like when people riot in cities where a team just won a sports championship. There is no sensible rationale behind it; it's just criminals taking advantage of a situation to do their worst.  Hence, them going from small city to small city in the area and looting some more, and morons on social media riling them up don't help.

Those individuals are acting out of real problems and issues. To simply dismiss them as criminals ignores the system they are protesting against. This specific case may not even be the best example, but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

Dismissive or not, when you loot like that, you are a criminal, plain and simple.  The footage of much of it was on live TV here and it was scary to watch. 

I agree about the prejudices and disadvantages, but the problem is that activity like all of this looting merely feeds into the stereotype and makes some people think, "Here we go again; black people feel like an injustice is done against them and respond like this."  It's not fair, especially since, like I said before, I think the vast majority are probably criminals already who are taking advantage of a situation.  They even said that it is suspected that most of the looters were not from Ferguson, so you had criminals coming from other areas to take advantage of the situation and do their worst.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2014, 09:54:14 AM »
but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

Of course there are. But trashing Apu's Quick-E-Stop doesn't do anything but hurt Apu.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2014, 10:04:32 AM »

Yeah, nothing to be outraged about when an unarmed kid gets waxed on the street.

If the unarmed kid was beating a police officer and going for his gun in an attempt to arm himself, the cop has to act. I don't know if this was the case of not, but just because he was unarmed doesn't mean he wasn't a threat.


Oh, I definitely agree.  IF they were in close contact and the kid made a move for the gun, that's one thing, but if that struggle was over and the kid was surrendering (according to eye-witness accounts so says the media) with his hands up in the air as alleged, that's an entirely different thing altogether. 




Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2014, 10:10:32 AM »
Oh, I definitely agree.  IF they were in close contact and the kid made a move for the gun, that's one thing, but if that struggle was over and the kid was surrendering (according to eye-witness accounts so says the media) with his hands up in the air as alleged, that's an entirely different thing altogether.
Trying to decide who to believe between eye witnesses (including self-serving relatives) and cops (self-serving liars) is an impossibility. That's why I'm waiting to hear about the physical evidence. Based on the two stories I think it'll wind up being fairly conclusive once we know the details on the actual shots fired.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2014, 10:20:05 AM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.


Prison guards are even worse.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2014, 10:24:55 AM »
Oh, I definitely agree.  IF they were in close contact and the kid made a move for the gun, that's one thing, but if that struggle was over and the kid was surrendering (according to eye-witness accounts so says the media) with his hands up in the air as alleged, that's an entirely different thing altogether.
Trying to decide who to believe between eye witnesses (including self-serving relatives) and cops (self-serving liars) is an impossibility. That's why I'm waiting to hear about the physical evidence. Based on the two stories I think it'll wind up being fairly conclusive once we know the details on the actual shots fired.


I agree.  Physical evidence trumps any eye-witness accounts which are sure to be at the very least biased and more than likely partially made up.  Unfortunately, that's often how these things go down.   I'm wondering if any video will hit the street.  Someone must have pulled out a phone, I think.


I really hope the cop didn't just wax that dude...it's bad for everyone if that's what happened.  For all we know it could have been completely justified. Time will might tell.

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2014, 11:00:16 AM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.


Prison guards are even worse.
Yeah, Christ man. Have you red the DOJ's Riker's report? I think it was just released in the last day or two. They should take most of those guards and throw their sorry asses into the general population for a month, although they probably deserve even worse.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 12:18:20 PM »
but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

Of course there are. But trashing Apu's Quick-E-Stop doesn't do anything but hurt Apu.

And I never said otherwise. (But lets be real, in this America, it's most likely not Apu's, and they prob have insurance)

Quote
I agree about the prejudices and disadvantages, but the problem is that activity like all of this looting merely feeds into the stereotype and makes some people think, "Here we go again; black people feel like an injustice is done against them and respond like this."  It's not fair, especially since, like I said before, I think the vast majority are probably criminals already who are taking advantage of a situation.  They even said that it is suspected that most of the looters were not from Ferguson, so you had criminals coming from other areas to take advantage of the situation and do their worst.

Why are those people you consider criminals, criminals? Because of the broken system that puts them in that position, most notably, the War on Drugs and the police which enforce those horrible laws. Not only does it make them feel targetted, but it destroys their family, disenchranices them, makes it very, very hard to get a job, impossible to get financial aid to get an education, and basically make it so they have no real opportunities other than to commit crimes and become a "criminal."

The "not fairness" is exactly what I'm arguing against. You say yourself it's wrong, but then I'd say implicitly do it. Looting and rioting is wrong, and people shouldn't do it, but neither should we think it says something about a person or the people if they do riot or loot.

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2014, 12:30:18 PM »
Why are those people you consider criminals, criminals? Because of the broken system that puts them in that position, most notably, the War on Drugs and the police which enforce those horrible laws. Not only does it make them feel targetted, but it destroys their family, disenchranices them, makes it very, very hard to get a job, impossible to get financial aid to get an education, and basically make it so they have no real opportunities other than to commit crimes and become a "criminal."
Now you're making assumptions. I agree with a lot of your concerns, but at the same time, who's to say that kid up there looting the QT doesn't live in a good neighborhood, have two good parents and attend a decent school somewhere. Maybe he's just acting like a fucking thug because he wants to be a fucking thug, emulating his thug buddies. It does actually happen, and in both cases it might look exactly the same.

Like I said, I think a lot of your concerns are dead on and need to be addressed, but at the same time it's no free pass. The disadvantaged occasionally turn out quite well, and the privilidged can sometimes turn into real shitbags.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2014, 12:34:57 PM »
I don't consider them criminals; they are criminals, by the very definition of the word.

A co-worked posted this on facebook:

http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/08/11/police-officers-arent-the-ones-destroying-the-black-community/

I don't agree with everything he wrote, but there is quite a bit of truth in much of what he said there.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2014, 12:54:42 PM »
but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

Of course there are. But trashing Apu's Quick-E-Stop doesn't do anything but hurt Apu.

But lets be real, in this America, it's most likely not Apu's, and they prob have insurance
I don't know, I live in a very small town in rural NC, and even WE have one convenience store run by an Apu and his family. 

And whether or not they have insurance is irrelevant.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2014, 01:07:33 PM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.


Prison guards are even worse.
Yeah, Christ man. Have you red the DOJ's Riker's report? I think it was just released in the last day or two. They should take most of those guards and throw their sorry asses into the general population for a month, although they probably deserve even worse.


I don't need to read it.  I lived it for the better part of two decades.    :|

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2014, 01:17:52 PM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.


Prison guards are even worse.
Yeah, Christ man. Have you red the DOJ's Riker's report? I think it was just released in the last day or two. They should take most of those guards and throw their sorry asses into the general population for a month, although they probably deserve even worse.


I don't need to read it.  I lived it for the better part of two decades.    :|
Not to belittle your experience, but you didn't live this. Apparently in NY there is no distinction between 16 and adulthood when it comes to prison. If you're 16 then it's off to the general population for you. Most of the report was dealing with the treatment of those guys, sandwiched between lifers and guards who were generally worse than lifers.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2014, 02:56:51 PM »
Why are those people you consider criminals, criminals? Because of the broken system that puts them in that position, most notably, the War on Drugs and the police which enforce those horrible laws. Not only does it make them feel targetted, but it destroys their family, disenchranices them, makes it very, very hard to get a job, impossible to get financial aid to get an education, and basically make it so they have no real opportunities other than to commit crimes and become a "criminal."
Now you're making assumptions. I agree with a lot of your concerns, but at the same time, who's to say that kid up there looting the QT doesn't live in a good neighborhood, have two good parents and attend a decent school somewhere. Maybe he's just acting like a fucking thug because he wants to be a fucking thug, emulating his thug buddies. It does actually happen, and in both cases it might look exactly the same.

Like I said, I think a lot of your concerns are dead on and need to be addressed, but at the same time it's no free pass. The disadvantaged occasionally turn out quite well, and the privilidged can sometimes turn into real shitbags.

I'm talking generalities, not specifics. There probably are a few dolts doing it that are scumbags, that doesn't make all of them such.

I don't consider them criminals; they are criminals, by the very definition of the word.

To be a criminal, you must commit a crime. A crime is a legal construct we make, based upon our morality. For you to consider someone a criminal, you must consider what they did to be morally reprehensible.

Someone who goes 36 in a 35 is breaking the law and could be punished as such. By the strict definition, that person is a criminal. Do you consider someone going 36 in a 35 to be a criminal? I sure don't. I distinguish between performing a criminal act and being a criminal.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2014, 03:16:57 PM »

Yeah, nothing to be outraged about when an unarmed kid gets waxed on the street.

How about being outraged at trivializing this poor kid's death, and using it as a lame excuse to grind axes? 

I'm extremely outraged that this kid doesn't get to grow old, doesn't get to be a dad, doesn't get to fall in love, doesn't get to be cool (okay, so I copped that from Neil Young).  But I can also be outraged that people are more than willing - with half the story, and most of that from the parents of the kid that died - to hang this cop out to dry without even knowing his f-ing name (and therefore what his history is).

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2014, 03:23:15 PM »
Interesting. In a situation like this why does his name or history matter? Either the shooting was justified or not, and personal history probably isn't going to factor into that.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2014, 03:25:16 PM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.

We've had this conversation before, I know, but it's a new context, so I'll bite.   My brother is on the job.  He did, in fact "volunteer" for this job.   And for that, he gets to put himself in harm's way several times a week for a paycheck that barely makes ends meet (in a blast of "fairness and justness", I literally make three times what he does and I working as an attorney for a company that sells trains.  Yes, trains.)

Not every cop, in fact not even most cops, in fact not even the majority of cops "exploit their authority", and at least on my brother's force, they don't tolerate that crap.  They are acutely aware that many people have the nihilistic attitude that you do.  They are also acutely aware that a lot of people are dickheads.   I was on patrol with him one night and he had THREE stops in a row where the person tried - even after being told multiple times to stay in the vehicle with their hands on the wheel (in plain sight) - to get out of the vehicle.  In none of those instances did he even move for his weapon, and no force was used either.   He kept his cool and he was able to diffuse all three situations without incident, as he is trained to do.  Incidentially, he issued no citations in any of the three stops, even though two had clearly broken the law (the third wasn't black and white, but he could have found something if he was the vindictive dickhead that cops are being painted here as being). 

My experience?  Even in the relatively rare instances where force is used, it is almost never unprovoked in some way.  We can debate whether the provocation was just, but is almost always SOME provocation.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 03:44:24 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2014, 03:28:46 PM »


Those individuals are acting out of real problems and issues. To simply dismiss them as criminals ignores the system they are protesting against. This specific case may not even be the best example, but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

I call bullshit on that.  That's not "protest".  What exactly was being protested after the Lakers won the NBA Championship??? 

And since you're so willing to give the second "bad act" a pass as a result of the first "bad act", I'll wait for your compassion and sympathy and excuses for the police officer when it comes out that the shooting was a second "bad act" as a result of a first "bad act".   

Online El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2014, 03:32:05 PM »
That story is a reminder of how tough a job cops have.  I know I wouldn't want it.  You're damned if you, and damned (and possibly dead) if you don't.  It's a thankless job nowadays.  Now that thank yous are why they do it, but considering they put their lives on the line every day, you'd think more people would show some appreciation for them.
Nah, fuck that. They volunteer to do the job, often for crappy reasons, and then exploit their authority every chance they get. Just because there are instances where they lawfully use force doesn't excuse the far too frequent instances of them beating the shit out of somebody quite needlessly and justify it by yelling "STOP RESISTING" the whole time.

We've had this conversation before, I know, but it's a new context, so I'll bite.   My brother is on the job.  He did, in fact "volunteer" for this job.   And for that, he gets to put himself in harm's way several times a week for a paycheck that barely makes ends meet (in a blast of "fairness and justness", I literally make three times what he does and I working as an attorney for a company that sells trains.  Yes, trains.)

Not every cop, in fact not even most cops, in fact not even the majority of cops "exploit their authority", and at least on my brother's force, they don't tolerate that crap.  They are acutely aware that many people have the nihilistic attitude that you do.  They are also acutely aware that a lot of people are dickheads.   I was on patrol with him one night and he had THREE stops in a row where the person tried - even after being told multiple times to stay in the vehicle with their hands on the wheel (in plain sight) - to get out of the vehicle.  In none of those instances did he even move for his weapon, and no force was used either.   He kept his cool and he was able to diffuse the situation. 

My experience?  Even in the relatively rare instances where force is used, it is almost never unprovoked in some way.  We can debate whether the provocation was just, but is almost always SOME provocation.
And out of curiosity, would your brother be willing to, let's say stretch the rules just a tiny bit, in deference to the greater good?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2014, 03:38:58 PM »

To be a criminal, you must commit a crime. A crime is a legal construct we make, based upon our morality. For you to consider someone a criminal, you must consider what they did to be morally reprehensible.

Someone who goes 36 in a 35 is breaking the law and could be punished as such. By the strict definition, that person is a criminal. Do you consider someone going 36 in a 35 to be a criminal? I sure don't. I distinguish between performing a criminal act and being a criminal.

You are GROSSLY oversimplifying to make your point.  The majority of crimes are NOT morally based (though they may have started out that way), in the sense that they are not crimes simply because "stealing is immoral".   "Stealing" is about protecting the property rights of the one that was stolen from.  "Homicide" has nothing to do with the morals of killing another human being; it is about depriving that other soul of the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

Your definition is entirely your own, and not shared by the criminal justice system (and not by me, either, I should add).  If I boost a gas station, that I did it to buy hookers or to feed my starving kid does not matter; either way, I AM A CRIMINAL.    The definition of a "criminal" is one who pleads or is otherwise found guilty of a violation of the relevant criminal code.    That definition is decidedly, and purposefully, lacking a "moral" component. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2014, 03:41:50 PM »
Interesting. In a situation like this why does his name or history matter? Either the shooting was justified or not, and personal history probably isn't going to factor into that.

Well, I happen to agree with you, but here, the ENTIRE case against the cop (and the justification for using such egregious terms as "slaughtered" and "gunned down" and "executed") is based on the humanizing of the victim.  We know HIS name, we know at least the parents biased and grief-soaked version of HIS history.  None of that bears on whether he reached for the gun or not, but the parents are wasting no opportunity to obscure that fact. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2014, 03:49:26 PM »
And out of curiosity, would your brother be willing to, let's say stretch the rules just a tiny bit, in deference to the greater good?

I'm trying to give you as honest an answer as I can.  I don't know.   I think it depends on what you mean by "stretch the rules", which I know (and I would argue too) is not an answer of degrees.  You either do or you don't.   

I do know this:   he had an opportunity to get a job for the son of one of his friends.   A son he knows to have had a history of drug issues but claimed to be clean.  He told the kid up front to disclose his history and to make sure he was clean for the next "x" days because he could be called in at any time for a test. 

When my brother was given the application on which he was to affix his recommendation, he realized the kid didn't disclose all.  The kid also popped on the test.  My brother withdrew his recommendation, calling the kid out for lying (though you could argue it was self-serving, knowing that if he didn't and the kid popped, he would look bad).   Not the same circumstance you are going for, I know, but data nonetheless.   I don't profess to say my brother is perfect or a saint; I know he is not.   But he does take his job seriously, and he doesn't let his personal demons drive his behavior (i.e. his job is not a paid therapy session for him to get his agressions out) like many of the posts here imply. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 04:04:19 PM by Stadler »

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2014, 03:57:17 PM »


You are GROSSLY oversimplifying to make your point.  The majority of crimes are NOT morally based (though they may have started out that way), in the sense that they are not crimes simply because "stealing is immoral".   "Stealing" is about protecting the property rights of the one that was stolen from.  "Homicide" has nothing to do with the morals of killing another human being; it is about depriving that other soul of the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

Your definition is entirely your own, and not shared by the criminal justice system (and not by me, either, I should add).  If I boost a gas station, that I did it to buy hookers or to feed my starving kid does not matter; either way, I AM A CRIMINAL.    The definition of a "criminal" is one who pleads or is otherwise found guilty of a violation of the relevant criminal code.    That definition is decidedly, and purposefully, lacking a "moral" component.

Yeah, I've always viewed law and crime, at least the modern Western version of the concepts, as being less based in morality and more based on what is or is not an anti-social behavior.  Murder is not illegal because it is "wrong", it is illegal because it is disruptive to society, and indeed, the act itself undermines the legitimacy of the very concept of a society.  Likewise theft is also a very distinctly anti-social behavior that, for the sake of creating a society, cannot be permitted.  A society where people are permitted to just kill, rape and pillage each other at will is not a society, or at least, not a functioning society, by any definition of the term. 



As for the OP, I'm going to wait until more solid, physical, non-emotionally biased facts become known before I form an opinion, but right now, it looks like this is shaping up to become the next Tryvon Martin debacle. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2014, 04:53:25 PM »


Those individuals are acting out of real problems and issues. To simply dismiss them as criminals ignores the system they are protesting against. This specific case may not even be the best example, but there are serious problems with the police system, and there are some serious systemic prejudices and disadvantages for minorities.

I call bullshit on that.  That's not "protest".  What exactly was being protested after the Lakers won the NBA Championship??? 

What a fantastic red herring.

Quote
And since you're so willing to give the second "bad act" a pass as a result of the first "bad act", I'll wait for your compassion and sympathy and excuses for the police officer when it comes out that the shooting was a second "bad act" as a result of a first "bad act".

Wow.  I do believe I have not commented ONCE on the cops actions in this case. The only even slight reference I gave to this case was to say it may not even be a good example for this kind of thing, in and of itself. But nice snotty attitude and good job pigeonholing me.


To be a criminal, you must commit a crime. A crime is a legal construct we make, based upon our morality. For you to consider someone a criminal, you must consider what they did to be morally reprehensible.

Someone who goes 36 in a 35 is breaking the law and could be punished as such. By the strict definition, that person is a criminal. Do you consider someone going 36 in a 35 to be a criminal? I sure don't. I distinguish between performing a criminal act and being a criminal.

You are GROSSLY oversimplifying to make your point.  The majority of crimes are NOT morally based (though they may have started out that way), in the sense that they are not crimes simply because "stealing is immoral".   "Stealing" is about protecting the property rights of the one that was stolen from.  "Homicide" has nothing to do with the morals of killing another human being; it is about depriving that other soul of the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

I'm honestly not sure if this is supposed to be serious, and I don't intend to offend. You just defended something not being moral... by pointing out how they're moral... rights are moral claims. to say you are protecting anyone rights is to make a moral claim. It is your morality that says it is someone's right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Quote
Your definition is entirely your own, and not shared by the criminal justice system (and not by me, either, I should add).  If I boost a gas station, that I did it to buy hookers or to feed my starving kid does not matter; either way, I AM A CRIMINAL.    The definition of a "criminal" is one who pleads or is otherwise found guilty of a violation of the relevant criminal code.    That definition is decidedly, and purposefully, lacking a "moral" component. 

Yes, the legal system can "objectively" execute the law, but the law itself is subjective to the will of the people, based upon their morality. In the purely legal sense, you are correct. The legal definition of a criminal is purely one of administrative bureaucracy, and seeks to ignore the moral opinions of the people executing the laws. However, the legal definition is not THE definition, and if you would go look it up in the dictionary, you'll notice it means several things, and is somewhat convoluted.

Either way, the concept of a criminal is most certainly a moral concept based upon morality and what we consider appropriate behavior.