Poll

How would you personally want the DVD released in terms of the live vocals?

Fix them up (LALP or more-so)
12 (14.1%)
Only very slightly if needed
34 (40%)
Only in an extreme case for one or two notes the whole night
18 (21.2%)
No, no changes at all please
21 (24.7%)

Total Members Voted: 85

Author Topic: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?  (Read 7705 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59284
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2014, 08:25:00 PM »
Whoa whoa whoa, first of all, when I say "tampered with" I am most certainly not referring to EQ or reverb effects and such. That's just part of mixing/ mastering. Yes technically you could call that "tampering", but I'm pretty sure no one here is referring to that (right?). I only mean re-recording or tuning any section of vocals. Sorry for the misunderstanding, if there is one!

Point #2, I'm actually really surprised people would disagree with me on this!

Firstly, it has absolutely nothing to do with expectations. If someone makes a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, adds ketchup into it, and serves it to you, it does not taste terrible because you didn't expect the ketchup. It tastes terrible because ketchup goes terrible in peanut butter and jelly.

Secondly, it's preposterous to say that you have total control over whether something you're experiencing is pleasurable or not. The only thing you have control over is your preconceived notions and your attitude. Beyond that, it's left up to the traits of the experience itself and your natural opinions of those traits. Whether you are served that sandwich hoping for it to be delicious, really wanting to like it, or expecting it to be terrible, either way it's gonna suck.

Also, if you say "I believe DT already have their own performance integrity" you don't really understand the meaning of the word, because integrity is entirely objective (The house will either fall over or it won't). Maybe what you mean to say is that what DT consider integrated is in disagreement with what I would consider integrated. In that case, then we'd have a discussion because we could debate which definition is actually true.

Except they would serve a different peanut butter than the one you ordered.  Besides that,  I hate to break it to you, most lives albums, and by most I'd venture about 95% get touched up.  It's been documented for decades.  It never crosses my mind anymore.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2014, 08:54:15 PM »
You aren't breaking anything to me, I already know that. It has nothing to do with me liking it.

Ok so yea of course I purposely used an exaggerated examples. Let's say they serve me peanut butter that I don't like. It's now the peanut butter's fault that the 10/10 grade goes down to 8 or 9/10. And by the way, that still goes for whether I dislike the peanut butter for an objective reason (it's expired) or for a subjective reason (it's too crunchy).

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2014, 09:09:07 PM »
All DT live releases have seen some kind of modification, to varying degrees. The most massive one I'm aware of are the Ronnie Scotts tracks on ACOS, where they rerecorded long stretches of instruments and vocals.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2014, 09:20:44 PM »
That's one thing that is so good about the official bootlegs. Also, I was pretty sure LSNY Metropolis 2000 had no overdubs? They even said something about that in regards to the vocals in the commentary.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2014, 09:30:43 PM »
Given some of the vocals on LSFNY ... no, it wasn't overdubbed.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline TheGreatPretender

  • The Second Dancing Turtle
  • Posts: 6981
  • Gender: Male
  • You are reading these words.
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2014, 09:30:58 PM »
That's one thing that is so good about the official bootlegs. Also, I was pretty sure LSNY Metropolis 2000 had no overdubs? They even said something about that in regards to the vocals in the commentary.

Yep, that's what they said. And I believe Score didn't have any overdubs either. In fact, I thought it did, until a bunch of people here on the forums insisted that it did not.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2014, 09:43:07 PM »
Of course Score has been modified. JP's guitar didn't work at the start, that was all recorded afterwards.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline TheGreatPretender

  • The Second Dancing Turtle
  • Posts: 6981
  • Gender: Male
  • You are reading these words.
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2014, 09:46:02 PM »
Of course Score has been modified. JP's guitar didn't work at the start, that was all recorded afterwards.

I meant specifically vocals. Didn't know that about JP's guitar.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2014, 10:16:12 PM »
I know for a fact Score's vocals were touched up at least a little. The only audience-shot footage I've seen from Score is about 5 30 second videos, and just with that I've heard about 6 or 7 notes that were different from how they sound on the DVD. One of which wasn't even a mistake or anything, just an unnecessary change to make it slightly more like the studio version.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2014, 10:42:17 PM »
This assumption that the backing track is a big part of what we are hearing live is just that: an assumption.  It has no basis in reality.  I think of a backing track with DT as being them filling out the edges with this here and that there, but almost everything you are hearing is being played and sang by the five guys on stage.  It's silly to suggest otherwise. 

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2014, 10:55:44 PM »
Um.. I know pretty much exactly what is being played by the backing track every single time I hear it. Maybe you're referring to someone else, but I also never said that it was a big part of what we're hearing either. It's very small part of it, but what is part of the backing track is no "assumption" when James LaBrie's voice times 4 is coming out of the speakers and no one is at a microphone  :lol

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2878
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2014, 11:24:43 PM »
I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Well, let me put it this way- Yes it does, but whose fault is that?

In other words, is it the performer's lack of performance integrity to blame, or the viewer's struggle to enjoy something that is partially lacking in performance integrity.

"Fault" doesn't even enter into the equation.  There is no "fault."  And for that matter, there is no such thing as "performance integrity."

Well sure it does, if you were watching a concert and the lighting is so bad that you can't see two of the performers, you'd blame the lighting (well, technically the people responsible for the lighting) for detracting from your enjoyment of the concert. If you're watching a concert, and only half of what you're seeing is being played live, and you argue that it takes away from the energy, emotion, flow, or anything else, you would be arguing that the backing tracks (or those who are responsible for their presence) are at fault for detracting from your enjoyment of the concert.

So in DT's case, all I'm saying is that you can't blame me, the viewer, for being increasingly disconnected from the emotion with each touch up (or backing track, depending on what we're talking about).

As for integrity, I mean it quite literally (I'm not just throwing that word around). Just as you would say a house that is built with proper support has structural integrity, a live band whose sound is built by lively-performed instruments has performance integrity. The emotion portrayed by the music could just as easily crumble as a house could without structural integrity.
I agree.

DT are known to be these virtuous masterminds, and I am a little disappointed to learn recently that they use backing tracks and click tracks. Not the end of the world, and plenty of bands doing it, but for a band so known for being such great players, it does make the whole live product less impressive.

It's strange to me that so many prog metal bands do this, despite being considered virtuoso players. To any other virtuoso genre or fanbase, playing with a click and using backing tracks automatically takes you down a level.

Of course, we all know DT could do without the click and piped in vocals if they wanted, because they did for several years, so I'm not sure what gives. I guess it's for the stage show? It's cool they have such a nice production, but I'd still just love to see them jam out from time to time.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2014, 11:48:02 PM »
That's one thing that is so good about the official bootlegs. Also, I was pretty sure LSNY Metropolis 2000 had no overdubs? They even said something about that in regards to the vocals in the commentary.

If LSFNY is touched up, I'd hate to hear the original. :lol
Even though most of the official bootlegs are thoroughly live (and couldn't have been changed if they wanted to, being soundboard mixdowns), some of the official bootlegs sound more touched up than their regular live releases imo.
I'm not convinced any of the vocals on the TNOTB bootleg are live. Judging from the Osaka performance of that album, JLB sang admirably well, but not near that well. Not that I am bothered by this at all, because it still had a live feel to it, and I was still amazed at the time that JLB was capable of such vocals, live or studio.
Some of the Uncovered vocals don't sound live to me either. Again though, this doesn't bother me if it is indeed the case. I'm not a stickler for completely live vocals on a live release.


I know for a fact Score's vocals were touched up at least a little. The only audience-shot footage I've seen from Score is about 5 30 second videos, and just with that I've heard about 6 or 7 notes that were different from how they sound on the DVD. One of which wasn't even a mistake or anything, just an unnecessary change to make it slightly more like the studio version.

Yep, Score had a few little dubs, but the vast majority of it was still live just with just a bit of pitch correction, which is all standard. JLB did a fantastic job on that show and tour, so not much was necessary.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2014, 12:00:34 AM »
Oh yea I'm not referring to the cover albums, those might be touched. Also Another Day on the Christmas release was tuned (not very slickly).

Yep, Score had a few little dubs, but the vast majority of it was still live just with just a bit of pitch correction, which is all standard. JLB did a fantastic job on that show and tour, so not much was necessary.

Ah, see yea that's where they get ya. The pitch correction. A little pitch correction throughout is actually most definitely not a minor change. Maybe it wasn't throughout, though, you didn't use that word.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2014, 12:10:24 AM »
Oh yea I'm not referring to the cover albums, those might be touched. Also Another Day on the Christmas release was tuned (not very slickly).

Yep, Score had a few little dubs, but the vast majority of it was still live just with just a bit of pitch correction, which is all standard. JLB did a fantastic job on that show and tour, so not much was necessary.

Ah, see yea that's where they get ya. The pitch correction. A little pitch correction throughout is actually most definitely not a minor change. Maybe it wasn't throughout, though, you didn't use that word.

Unless it's applied heavily, I consider pitch correction a minor change, since almost every single album and live album of the past decade uses it. It would be naive to think otherwise. And it's still using the original live vocal, rather than dubbing it to achieve the same result.
I think it was probably used on all of Score, but it only needed to be used lightly because the original vocal was so damn good. I recall TSCO and IWBY being the more obvious examples, while other parts I could tell mostly by comparison with the bootlegs.
It's not a matter of needing it, it just makes it sound that little bit nicer when done properly, as was definitely the case here.

I'm not sure about LALP. I only listened to it once, but it sounded very live to me, in a good way. :tup
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
Oh I know, it's used on EVERYTHING now and I HATE it. I can hear it in everything and it just sounds SO BAD to me. It actually changes the tone of a singer which is just terrible. And yes, as far as I can tell, all the fix ups on LALP sound like overdubs rather than tuning. So at least it sounds good to me even if it's not totally live.

Offline wasteland

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8011
  • Gender: Male
  • Jay Beckenstein was in Spyro Gyra, right?
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2014, 01:03:45 AM »

I'm not convinced any of the vocals on the TNOTB bootleg are live. Judging from the Osaka performance of that album, JLB sang admirably well, but not near that well. Not that I am bothered by this at all, because it still had a live feel to it, and I was still amazed at the time that JLB was capable of such vocals, live or studio.


You can't compare the  NOTB bootleg with the Osaka performance, since the former was recorded in 2002 and the latter happened in 2004. Still, I know for a fact that parts of NOTB have been re-recorded. Take the ending note of Children Of The Damned: it sounds nothing like a scream James would do in 2002 (on the unofficial bootleg of the performance, in fact, the scream is much grittier, higher pitched and with no vibrato), but rather like something that belongs to his post-restyling technique, that is to say from 2003 onwards.
:slayer: Somewhere, over the wasteland..... bootlegs fly :slayer:
MoraWintersoul is the BEST person.
- Marco

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2014, 01:16:51 AM »

I'm not convinced any of the vocals on the TNOTB bootleg are live. Judging from the Osaka performance of that album, JLB sang admirably well, but not near that well. Not that I am bothered by this at all, because it still had a live feel to it, and I was still amazed at the time that JLB was capable of such vocals, live or studio.


You can't compare the  NOTB bootleg with the Osaka performance, since the former was recorded in 2002 and the latter happened in 2004. Still, I know for a fact that parts of NOTB have been re-recorded. Take the ending note of Children Of The Damned: it sounds nothing like a scream James would do in 2002 (on the unofficial bootleg of the performance, in fact, the scream is much grittier, higher pitched and with no vibrato), but rather like something that belongs to his post-restyling technique, that is to say from 2003 onwards.

I forgot/didn't realize the two performances were a few years apart, so it's much less believable for a JLB circa 2002 performance than it would be for a 2004 performance.  The SDOIT tour was a lower point for JLB's voice before he got the new vocal coach and improved his health, and started to improve noticeably from the ToT tour onwards, as you've noted.

Oh I know, it's used on EVERYTHING now and I HATE it. I can hear it in everything and it just sounds SO BAD to me. It actually changes the tone of a singer which is just terrible. And yes, as far as I can tell, all the fix ups on LALP sound like overdubs rather than tuning. So at least it sounds good to me even if it's not totally live.

Believe me, I hate it when it's overdone (such as on BTS which totally kills that song for me), but when it's done lightly, I have no problem with it at all. The vocals on Score and LALP are both great to me, so whatever approach they use, I'm sure I'll be happy with the vocals on the upcoming live album. :)
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline GasparXR

  • Posts: 3020
  • Why would I put something personal here?
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2014, 01:19:47 AM »
Firstly, it has absolutely nothing to do with expectations. If someone makes a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, adds ketchup into it, and serves it to you, it does not taste terrible because you didn't expect the ketchup. It tastes terrible because ketchup goes terrible in peanut butter and jelly.

I like your analogy, but I think it may have faltered here because some people may actually like ketchup with their peanut butter and jelly. :corn

Offline mikeyd23

  • Posts: 5479
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2014, 07:47:08 AM »
DT are known to be these virtuous masterminds, and I am a little disappointed to learn recently that they use backing tracks and click tracks. Not the end of the world, and plenty of bands doing it, but for a band so known for being such great players, it does make the whole live product less impressive.

It's strange to me that so many prog metal bands do this, despite being considered virtuoso players. To any other virtuoso genre or fanbase, playing with a click and using backing tracks automatically takes you down a level.

As a guitarist who has played live many times without click and many times with click, I'd say it takes a better, tighter musician to play with a click than it does to not.

So actually, I'd say the opposite; I find it incredibly impressive that DT can manage to play their incredibly complex music with a set click track night in and night out.  Whether you like the idea is personal preference, but it's impressive nonetheless. 

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2014, 09:09:49 AM »
This assumption that the backing track is a big part of what we are hearing live is just that: an assumption.  It has no basis in reality. 

I think it all depends on what you consider "big". It's definitely present enough that in a recent video, when James held the microphone to the audience so they sing, you clearly heard James' voice still singing, because they had used the regular vocal track to fill in the chorus, but had mixed it so high into the performance that it sounded he was still singing. That's not everybody's cup of tea.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2014, 09:16:29 AM »
Okay, but was likely a random occurrence, one where JLB would normally sing and you'd hear his live vocal mostly, while the backing track would fill up the sound underneath him, but since he decided to let the audience sing that line or whatever, all you heard was the backing track. If that happens once or twice in a 3-hour show, it is really a big deal? 

Online hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52772
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2014, 09:37:01 AM »
Okay, but was likely a random occurrence, one where JLB would normally sing and you'd hear his live vocal mostly, while the backing track would fill up the sound underneath him, but since he decided to let the audience sing that line or whatever, all you heard was the backing track. If that happens once or twice in a 3-hour show, it is really a big deal?
No.

I mean, if it was a total vocal track, and he was out there lip-synching, it would be a big deal.  But that isn't what's happening.

JLB is really singing.
JP is really playing.
JM is really playing.
JR is really playing.
MM is really playing.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2014, 09:53:57 AM »
Just FYI, it's not the end of the world for me either. I think it's just lamentable in the grander scheme of things, that DT has switched to this external reliance (clicks, backing tracks) in their shows. They're still great shows, mind you, just a bit less personal.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Online hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52772
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2014, 09:57:11 AM »
I know what you're saying.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2014, 11:39:55 AM »
Do I hope that vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?




Honestly: I don't care.  I was at the concert they filmed in Boston.  LaBrie's performance was quite good that night.*  May have been a couple of clams in there somewhere, but I do not specifically remember any OMG WFT LOL moments in his performance, except for his sometimes awkward-sounding banter between songs. 












* His performance was good but it wasn't especially special good

Offline Labrie1984

  • Posts: 121
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2014, 04:23:43 PM »
Why does Labrie oversingwhen the concert is recorded for a live dvd release? I've listened to plenty of bootlegs from this tour and he sounds way better than in Boston. His voice seemed forced at the Opera House. What do you guys think? He may feel the pressure and it compromises his vocal performance...


Offline Labrie1984

  • Posts: 121
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2014, 04:44:28 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzgI_lw0j6I

Oh my...! That's what I call a solid and spectacular performance from James in this current tour. His performance in Boston was not like that, I'm afraid.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2014, 04:54:37 PM »
I don't know dude, I think the Boston gig was better. In that video there he is off-pitch a ton and his screams sound really forced.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline MoraWintersoul

  • Gloom Cookie
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6737
  • Gender: Female
  • welcome to the wasteland
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2014, 05:04:22 PM »
The mic antics are cool though :biggrin:

Most of these videos of cool vocal parts that are being posted around... don't sound all that cool to me? Dunno, I just have a problem with phone videos.

Quote
Don't try to BS her about Kevin Moore facts, she will obscure quote you in the face.

type : mora : and delete the spaces for a surprise

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2014, 07:16:07 PM »
Whoa whoa whoa, first of all, when I say "tampered with" I am most certainly not referring to EQ or reverb effects and such. That's just part of mixing/ mastering. Yes technically you could call that "tampering", but I'm pretty sure no one here is referring to that (right?). I only mean re-recording or tuning any section of vocals. Sorry for the misunderstanding, if there is one!

Fair enough, I didn't realise it was completely assumed because a lot of people have been mentioning a completely authentic live experience, and I guess I was just trying to say it's never quite like that anyway because there are normally necessary changes to make when considering live playback.

Point #2, I'm actually really surprised people would disagree with me on this!

Haha, I appreciate where you were coming from with the lighting example, I don't so much disagree but rather believed there was a connection between your expectations and the effect on your experience. And although it's a fair example, if the lighting crew screw up and that detracts from your experience, that's probably something you can't control because you had expectations that the lights would be working properly and thought nothing of it until it went wrong. It's a little bit different if your preconceived idea about the backing tracks or whatever, that you brought into that experience, was holding you back from enjoying the show because it'd be easier to enjoy it if you had few or no expectations about the effect the backing tracks will have your experience right? If they catch you off guard or if you formulate that they're not enjoyable while you're there well that is different. I only emphasised this point because I have a different experience regarding the backing tracks because they don't bother me and I think they enhance the show.

Firstly, it has absolutely nothing to do with expectations. If someone makes a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, adds ketchup into it, and serves it to you, it does not taste terrible because you didn't expect the ketchup. It tastes terrible because ketchup goes terrible in peanut butter and jelly.

Okay. But, doesn't this whole scenario involve a preconception about the ketchup tasting terrible with peanut butter and jelly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sell people on this sandwich, because I have my own, probably similar expectations about what that would be like, but if some one told me that it was a rainbow and fairy sandwich and I didn't know what those things tasted like together, hey, I don't know what my experience would be like. But I certainly don't know for sure if it would be terrible... Unless I had a preconceived notion that those things don't go well together.

Secondly, it's preposterous to say that you have total control over whether something you're experiencing is pleasurable or not. The only thing you have control over is your preconceived notions and your attitude. Beyond that, it's left up to the traits of the experience itself and your natural opinions of those traits. Whether you are served that sandwich hoping for it to be delicious, really wanting to like it, or expecting it to be terrible, either way it's gonna suck.

Also, if you say "I believe DT already have their own performance integrity" you don't really understand the meaning of the word, because integrity is entirely objective (The house will either fall over or it won't). Maybe what you mean to say is that what DT consider integrated is in disagreement with what I would consider integrated. In that case, then we'd have a discussion because we could debate which definition is actually true.

Alright. Let me correct myself if I ever worded it that we have total control over how we experience something, I was trying to say we're responsible for how we feel about something, and it's possible to change how you feel about anything; (and so, have at least some control over how you feel about something you're actively experiencing) IF you change your definition of what it means to you (preconceptions, expectations?). And I do agree that we have total control over the preconceived notions that we bring into it, which was the the point I was trying to make. Meaning it has everything to do with expectations.

And I think it would be fair to assume that DTs integrity is objectively different from their, yours or my conception of it. I would proclaim that we can not determine which one is 'true' though because the answers would be relative.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 08:59:04 PM by Rodni Demental »

Offline TheGreatPretender

  • The Second Dancing Turtle
  • Posts: 6981
  • Gender: Male
  • You are reading these words.
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2014, 08:57:41 PM »
I know for a fact Score's vocals were touched up at least a little. The only audience-shot footage I've seen from Score is about 5 30 second videos, and just with that I've heard about 6 or 7 notes that were different from how they sound on the DVD. One of which wasn't even a mistake or anything, just an unnecessary change to make it slightly more like the studio version.

Okay, well, if they're changing things unnecessarily, ESPECIALLY to make them sound more like the studio version, then I definitely do NOT want to see those types of changes.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2014, 09:53:01 PM »
This assumption that the backing track is a big part of what we are hearing live is just that: an assumption.  It has no basis in reality. 

I think it all depends on what you consider "big". It's definitely present enough that in a recent video, when James held the microphone to the audience so they sing, you clearly heard James' voice still singing, because they had used the regular vocal track to fill in the chorus, but had mixed it so high into the performance that it sounded he was still singing. That's not everybody's cup of tea.

Yeah, it's definitely a point of view thing. I guess, for me, based on my previous posts, I'm curious why someone would want to let it effect their experience. I respect that people have preferences, but I still like to know why it bothers them so much.  :lol Which I think is a question that relates to the source of these differences between our experiences. And most of the opinions on the matter, tend to stem from a certain expectation about the presentation, or a preconception on the way things 'should be done' for the performance to be 'real', authentic, entertaining or whatevs.

Just FYI, it's not the end of the world for me either. I think it's just lamentable in the grander scheme of things, that DT has switched to this external reliance (clicks, backing tracks) in their shows. They're still great shows, mind you, just a bit less personal.

I appreciate this. I guess it could be considered unfortunate that DT can't present shows to the same level without external reliance. But at this point it's all what ifs and maybes because this is the way DT present their shows atm, and it's not like there are alternative performances where they're lacking these features for us to get upset about, because they always use them now, until that happens it's a bit of a non issue. I mean, they already have heavy external reliance on electric guitars and keyboards with very specific presets that if the right preparations weren't made, could potentially be far more of a detraction from the experience than relying on clicks or backing tracks because most of us have a much higher expectation about the way we think the music should sound.

Of course, I'm still only exploring possibilities on why this bothers some individuals to the point where they feel the experience is being cheapened in some way. Perhaps similarly; some people hate electric guitars because acoustic guitars are the only 'real' authentic sound. As if the technique or musicianship of an electric guitar player is comparatively not as skillful (just as a notion for why someone might believe this to be true). Same deal with digital keyboard patches and 'real' pianos. So, is there a point where the details effect the listener's experience? Certainly, but it's got to be highly connected to the listeners/viewers beliefs, perspectives, personal definitions that they bring into the equation.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 11:59:10 PM by Rodni Demental »

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2014, 10:27:00 PM »
I'll say this, I think the golden days of vocal delivery are somewhat over for James, and any official live release will need some editing. He's still standing his ground after 20 years (and impressively so), but I think it's also kinda obvious that he is the weakest link in their performances at this point.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline TheAtliator

  • Sixdegrematichaos onachristmasmorning
  • Posts: 1587
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2014, 11:28:26 PM »
Whoa whoa whoa, first of all, when I say "tampered with" I am most certainly not referring to EQ or reverb effects and such. That's just part of mixing/ mastering. Yes technically you could call that "tampering", but I'm pretty sure no one here is referring to that (right?). I only mean re-recording or tuning any section of vocals. Sorry for the misunderstanding, if there is one!

Fair enough, I didn't realise it was completely assumed because a lot of people have been mentioning a completely authentic live experience, and I guess I was just trying to say it's never quite like that anyway because there are normally necessary changes to make when considering live playback.

Point #2, I'm actually really surprised people would disagree with me on this!

Haha, I appreciate where you were coming from with the lighting example, I don't so much disagree but rather believed there was a connection between your expectations and the effect on your experience. And although it's a fair example, if the lighting crew screw up and that detracts from your experience, that's probably something you can't control because you had expectations that the lights would be working properly and thought nothing of it until it went wrong. It's a little bit different if your preconceived idea about the backing tracks or whatever, that you brought into that experience, was holding you back from enjoying the show because it'd be easier to enjoy it if you had few or no expectations about the effect the backing tracks will have your experience right? If they catch you off guard or if you formulate that they're not enjoyable while you're there well that is different. I only emphasised this point because I have a different experience regarding the backing tracks because they don't bother me and I think they enhance the show.

Firstly, it has absolutely nothing to do with expectations. If someone makes a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, adds ketchup into it, and serves it to you, it does not taste terrible because you didn't expect the ketchup. It tastes terrible because ketchup goes terrible in peanut butter and jelly.

Okay. But, doesn't this whole scenario involve a preconception about the ketchup tasting terrible with peanut butter and jelly? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sell people on this sandwich, because I have my own, probably similar expectations about what that would be like, but if some one told me that it was a rainbow and fairy sandwich and I didn't know what those things tasted like together, hey, I don't know what my experience would be like. But I certainly don't know for sure if it would be terrible... Unless I had a preconceived notion that those things don't go well together.

Secondly, it's preposterous to say that you have total control over whether something you're experiencing is pleasurable or not. The only thing you have control over is your preconceived notions and your attitude. Beyond that, it's left up to the traits of the experience itself and your natural opinions of those traits. Whether you are served that sandwich hoping for it to be delicious, really wanting to like it, or expecting it to be terrible, either way it's gonna suck.

Also, if you say "I believe DT already have their own performance integrity" you don't really understand the meaning of the word, because integrity is entirely objective (The house will either fall over or it won't). Maybe what you mean to say is that what DT consider integrated is in disagreement with what I would consider integrated. In that case, then we'd have a discussion because we could debate which definition is actually true.

Alright. Let me correct myself if I ever worded it that we have total control over how we experience something, I was trying to say we're responsible for how we feel about something, and it's possible to change how you feel about anything; (and so, have at least some control over how you feel about something you're actively experiencing) IF you change your definition of what it means to you (preconceptions, expectations?). And I do agree that we have total control over the preconceived notions that we bring into it, which was the the point I was trying to make. Meaning it has everything to do with expectations.

And I think it would be fair to assume that DTs integrity is objectively different from their, yours or my conception of it. I would proclaim that we can not determine which one is 'true' though because the answers would be relative.

Thanks for carrying on this conversation! About the preconceived notions/ expectations- what I'm trying to say is that even if someone said I'll make you a sandwich and it'll be a surprise what's on it, it's still gonna be bad once you bight into it. I can go to the concert expecting the backing tracks to be good, bad, or not even expecting there to be backing tracks, and either way their presence will disconnect me from the emotion a little; detracting from the experience.

So basically- "if your preconceived idea about the backing tracks or whatever, that you brought into that experience, was holding you back from enjoying the show because it'd be easier to enjoy it if you had few or no expectations about the effect the backing tracks will have your experience right?" Not in this case because the backing tracks will detract whether I have preconceived notions or not. However, if I went in to the show expecting to see Octavarium, and left disappointed that I didn't, then yes the preconceived notion would have held me back from enjoying the experience fully. That is why you should really never go in with preconceived notions unless it's something you've already done before (in which case I'm not sure would even still be called a preconceived notion).