Poll

How would you personally want the DVD released in terms of the live vocals?

Fix them up (LALP or more-so)
12 (14.1%)
Only very slightly if needed
34 (40%)
Only in an extreme case for one or two notes the whole night
18 (21.2%)
No, no changes at all please
21 (24.7%)

Total Members Voted: 85

Author Topic: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?  (Read 7706 times)

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Offline TheAtliator

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For this coming DVD specifically, do you wish for there to be no fix-ups in the vocal department, or would you not mind? You can take into account how well LaBrie performed on that night (if you know), or don't if that doesn't affect your position.

I'm choosing no changes at all. Mostly because what I really want out of a live DVD is a quality recording of that live performance, just like I was there, but I can watch it over and over. Also I have taken into account that (from what I know) LaBrie probably did really well that night, and there are probably a few bum notes here and there at most. Not to mention, for me it tends to distract from the listening/watching experience when I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Edit: I'd like to add that I'm 100% sure the DVD will be awesome whatever is done to it, but I still find this topic to be an important and interesting one to discuss.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:57:54 AM by TheAtliator »

Offline GasparXR

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 01:08:52 AM »
I voted for only in extreme cases, but I didn't feel like LALP sounded like it was messed with. I found Score sounded a little more fixed, although LaB definitely wasn't. In Surrounded on LALP, the last word in "now at last I'm blind" is slightly sharp and wasn't fixed.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 03:13:24 AM »
I never thought that fixing the vocals up was an issue worth mentioning with DT (except for CiM, but that doesn't count anyway). It's a no brainer with live releases that the less they're tampered with, the better (although the only thing that prevents Live at Budokan from being perfect is JLB's weak performance). After LALP, a healthy mix and a good drum sound is the top priority. This one sounds miles better so I'm optimistic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_kDNZdE5is


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Offline wasteland

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 03:18:29 AM »
Fix them. If anybody wants to see the raw product he or she can look for the great Manchester Blu Ray, bootleg, or really any other audience recording out there.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 05:55:25 AM »
Do they need to be tampered with?
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 06:05:55 AM »
Considering how he performed when I saw him about a month before that show, I'd say there are no fixes necessary at all. I don't know how well he performed on the actual Boston show, but unless he totally flubbed some parts, I see absolutely no reason why they should be tampered with.
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Offline Zydar

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 06:16:44 AM »
Fix them. If anybody wants to see the raw product he or she can look for the great Manchester Blu Ray, bootleg, or really any other audience recording out there.

Exactly. If I want raw un-tampered shows I'll listen to some bootlegs instead (which I never do).
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Offline GasparXR

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 06:29:51 AM »
Considering how he performed when I saw him about a month before that show, I'd say there are no fixes necessary at all. I don't know how well he performed on the actual Boston show, but unless he totally flubbed some parts, I see absolutely no reason why they should be tampered with.

According to other people who were there, he was at the top of his game with very few flubs. I know I heard he nailed the difficult part in Illumination Theory, except for "noble and brave" where his voice cracked.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 07:33:40 AM »
He was thoroughly very good and powerful, and throughout trying to make the performance a bit more special than usual. He nailed most of the hard parts, but at times his voice faltered as it's normal. I'd say very few parts will need fixing, and I'm rather positive they will be fixed.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 07:39:16 AM »
I voted fixing the vocals in extreme cases, maybe just a couple notes that were flubbed.  Generally speaking I like live concerts to be as live as possible, but I totally understand touching up a few minor things here and there.  That's a completely different mentality than some bands who fix everything to the point of essentially re-recording the show, that I am not a fan of.

From reading this thread though, it sounds like JLB was on point that night in Boston and not a lot of fixes will be needed, which is always the best case scenario!

 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2014, 07:41:20 AM »
I don't care either way.  I accept that most live albums are touched up nowadays. 

I'm choosing no changes at all. Mostly because what I really want out of a live DVD is a quality recording of that live performance, just like I was there, but I can watch it over and over. Also I have taken into account that (from what I know) LaBrie probably did really well that night, and there are probably a few bum notes here and there at most. Not to mention, for me it tends to distract from the listening/watching experience when I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 08:39:03 AM »
I never thought that fixing the vocals up was an issue worth mentioning with DT

This. 

I voted "Only very slightly if needed."  A little touching up here and there is normal, so I expect that to be the case here.
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Offline Labrie1984

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 11:10:10 AM »
The expected release date for the upcoming dvd in Boston was August as James announced in Phily, wasn't it? I find it strange that there has not been an official announcement yet. I hope this bluray is not postponed for ages like Live at Luna Park. In relation to the topic, I've listened to the bootleg at the Opera House and there are some cracks in James voice throughout the concert. Nevertheless, generally speaking, the performance is solid and enjoyable. I would like the mistakes to be fixed to improve the overall experience. James' singing nowadays is impressive taking his age under consideration.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 11:18:09 AM »
The expected release date for the upcoming dvd in Boston was August as James announced in Phily, wasn't it? I find it strange that there has not been an official announcement yet.
Well, August 2015 is still far off.
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Offline Labrie1984

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2014, 11:23:39 AM »
I think he was talking about an august 2014 release. When I watched him say it I thought the postproduction time would be similar to Score (recorded in april/May and released in August). Who knows....what do you all think? I'm dying to have it :) I saw them in Barcelona last January and the performance was phenomenal :)

Offline Labrie1984

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2014, 11:29:40 AM »
I would like the appearance of the new dvd to be similar to Score's. I dind not enjoy Live at Luna Park very much in terms of visuals and camera work. James sounds stellar in my opinion but Rudess, Mangini and Myung are almost mute in some parts...

Offline JiM-Xtreme

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2014, 11:34:13 AM »
I'm 100% in favour of authenticity, so no tweaking whatsoever please.

Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2014, 11:35:21 AM »
Went with Kevin Moore
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2014, 11:52:55 AM »
Given how high quality the bootleg is of the show, it will be interesting to hear the A/B comparison.
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Offline TheAtliator

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2014, 11:59:35 AM »
Fix them. If anybody wants to see the raw product he or she can look for the great Manchester Blu Ray, bootleg, or really any other audience recording out there.

Exactly. If I want raw un-tampered shows I'll listen to some bootlegs instead (which I never do).

Aaghh this post makes me crazy! (Don't read this the wrong way) Because think of it this way, it's almost like- how would you like it if the thing you wanted was only available by a one-angle audience recording? It's easy for you to say listen to the bootleg, because the bootleg doesn't have the thing that you really want to hear. But no audience recording is even close to the same thing as even a poorly-produced professional, line-in, recording.

Basically, obviously it's fair that you answer the question with "fix it up", but don't then think that the non-fix side is still getting what they want too. Because I'll tell you first hand, I really don't get what I want (in terms of fix ups) from a bunch of awesome bootlegs and one fixed up DVD.

I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Well, let me put it this way- Yes it does, but whose fault is that?

In other words, is it the performer's lack of performance integrity to blame, or the viewer's struggle to enjoy something that is partially lacking in performance integrity.

Same goes for watching the show with backing tracks. When I'm at the show, it takes me a minute to get past it before I can really enjoy what is happening live. Luckily, it's a very short and small struggle with DT considering how minor the fix ups and backing tracks are, and how flat out amazing the genuine parts of the show are.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2014, 12:11:01 PM »
One step I'd actually be down with would be to replace the backing tracks with dedicated recordings. So, send JP into a recording studio to record his vocals for example.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2014, 12:13:24 PM »
I think he was talking about an august 2014 release.
I don't, since there has been literally NOTHING from the band about it.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2014, 12:16:38 PM »

I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Well, let me put it this way- Yes it does, but whose fault is that?

In other words, is it the performer's lack of performance integrity to blame, or the viewer's struggle to enjoy something that is partially lacking in performance integrity.

Same goes for watching the show with backing tracks. When I'm at the show, it takes me a minute to get past it before I can really enjoy what is happening live. Luckily, it's a very short and small struggle with DT considering how minor the fix ups and backing tracks are, and how flat out amazing the genuine parts of the show are.

The viewer's.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2014, 12:20:57 PM »
I think he was talking about an august 2014 release.
I don't, since there has been literally NOTHING from the band about it.

That's the peculiar part I find. LALP, despite the dragged-out release, there were announcements, videos with crying girls etc. With this one, hadn't they said something at the concert itself, we wouldn't even know about it.
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Offline BelichickFan

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2014, 12:35:02 PM »
I haven't read much about LALP, were there a lot of overdubs on that ?  Was it just vocals ?

Offline TheAtliator

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2014, 12:44:12 PM »
One step I'd actually be down with would be to replace the backing tracks with dedicated recordings. So, send JP into a recording studio to record his vocals for example.

Actually I think JP is in some of the tracks already. But either way, they did record a ton of things just for the tour because they don't use Portnoy's voice or the original hypnotherapist's voice. "Temptation" for example has been rerecorded WONDERFULLY.

And for the record, I don't mind any of the spoken words, samples, or sound effects on the track. Just the vocal and guitar harmonies (I think there are guitar harmonies) I mind.

The viewer's.

I think I read the question wrong, I guess I really shouldn't say that having to question what parts of the show are real or not takes the fun out of being a fan of music, but it certainly is a detracting factor to the specific product being viewed. And my point is that the blame is most certainly not on the viewer for feeling those effects while viewing, it is the imperfections of the product, whatever it might be.

I haven't read much about LALP, were there a lot of overdubs on that ?  Was it just vocals ?

Yea there were. Of course it depends on what you call "a lot", but in certain sections of certain songs, things were rerecorded even if the original was already good. I've heard an audience recording of TROE and I actually thought the actual way it was sung was miles better than the overdub! I'd still say most of the overdubbing was that a lot of minor things were changed to be more perfect, but also all big cracks or flat notes were definitely fixed completely. However, still some songs seem completely left alone. And yes, from what I could tell, just vocals.

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2014, 12:51:09 PM »
And for the record, I don't mind any of the spoken words, samples, or sound effects on the track. Just the vocal and guitar harmonies (I think there are guitar harmonies) I mind.
I would imagine that most guitar harmonies are done with a harmonizer, not pre-recorded.
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Offline BelichickFan

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2014, 12:55:54 PM »
Yea there were. Of course it depends on what you call "a lot", but in certain sections of certain songs, things were rerecorded even if the original was already good. I've heard an audience recording of TROE and I actually thought the actual way it was sung was miles better than the overdub! I'd still say most of the overdubbing was that a lot of minor things were changed to be more perfect, but also all big cracks or flat notes were definitely fixed completely. However, still some songs seem completely left alone. And yes, from what I could tell, just vocals.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2014, 03:26:55 PM »
Considering how he performed when I saw him about a month before that show, I'd say there are no fixes necessary at all. I don't know how well he performed on the actual Boston show, but unless he totally flubbed some parts, I see absolutely no reason why they should be tampered with.

According to other people who were there, he was at the top of his game with very few flubs. I know I heard he nailed the difficult part in Illumination Theory, except for "noble and brave" where his voice cracked.

Well, if his voice cracked, I see nothing against doing a little overdub over that part. But I mean, as long as they don't mess around with it too much. I don't care if he's off by 1/4 of a semitone on the occasional song.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2014, 03:37:50 PM »
I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Well, let me put it this way- Yes it does, but whose fault is that?

In other words, is it the performer's lack of performance integrity to blame, or the viewer's struggle to enjoy something that is partially lacking in performance integrity.

"Fault" doesn't even enter into the equation.  There is no "fault."  And for that matter, there is no such thing as "performance integrity." 
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Offline TheAtliator

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2014, 04:42:18 PM »
I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Well, let me put it this way- Yes it does, but whose fault is that?

In other words, is it the performer's lack of performance integrity to blame, or the viewer's struggle to enjoy something that is partially lacking in performance integrity.

"Fault" doesn't even enter into the equation.  There is no "fault."  And for that matter, there is no such thing as "performance integrity."

Well sure it does, if you were watching a concert and the lighting is so bad that you can't see two of the performers, you'd blame the lighting (well, technically the people responsible for the lighting) for detracting from your enjoyment of the concert. If you're watching a concert, and only half of what you're seeing is being played live, and you argue that it takes away from the energy, emotion, flow, or anything else, you would be arguing that the backing tracks (or those who are responsible for their presence) are at fault for detracting from your enjoyment of the concert.

So in DT's case, all I'm saying is that you can't blame me, the viewer, for being increasingly disconnected from the emotion with each touch up (or backing track, depending on what we're talking about).

As for integrity, I mean it quite literally (I'm not just throwing that word around). Just as you would say a house that is built with proper support has structural integrity, a live band whose sound is built by lively-performed instruments has performance integrity. The emotion portrayed by the music could just as easily crumble as a house could without structural integrity.

Offline Rodni Demental

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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2014, 06:26:25 PM »
Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?

Hopes and dreams.. But not gonna happen with this one, vocals are always tampered with. :lol I do however find it an interesting subject..

I hope it's tampered with in the usual way. Like balancing out the midtones so not to rely on the varying monitor output levels. Taking a direct recording is not necessarily the best way to get the best out of James' voice. Some of the amplifiers might pick up the higher range on the waveform that doesn't exactly represent the output you hear in realtime through the monitors, so with subtle amounts of compression you can reduce any of the sharper high range feedback, and bring out the lower tones.

And then there's waveform correction which is a different game. This is normally really subtle, and so long as it's as subtle as it's been on studio albums/most live albums then it'll only enhance the experience. It only starts to sound fake when you flatline the pitch correction or stretch a note further than it should. Or have a lazy sound engineer. (CiM)

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2014, 06:51:10 PM »
I find myself constantly asking myself "Do you think that note was real?? How about that one?" because I just always tend to wonder about that stuff.

Doesn't that take the fun out of being a fan of music?

Well, let me put it this way- Yes it does, but whose fault is that?

In other words, is it the performer's lack of performance integrity to blame, or the viewer's struggle to enjoy something that is partially lacking in performance integrity.

"Fault" doesn't even enter into the equation.  There is no "fault."  And for that matter, there is no such thing as "performance integrity."

Well sure it does, if you were watching a concert and the lighting is so bad that you can't see two of the performers, you'd blame the lighting (well, technically the people responsible for the lighting) for detracting from your enjoyment of the concert. If you're watching a concert, and only half of what you're seeing is being played live, and you argue that it takes away from the energy, emotion, flow, or anything else, you would be arguing that the backing tracks (or those who are responsible for their presence) are at fault for detracting from your enjoyment of the concert.

So in DT's case, all I'm saying is that you can't blame me, the viewer, for being increasingly disconnected from the emotion with each touch up (or backing track, depending on what we're talking about).

As for integrity, I mean it quite literally (I'm not just throwing that word around). Just as you would say a house that is built with proper support has structural integrity, a live band whose sound is built by lively-performed instruments has performance integrity. The emotion portrayed by the music could just as easily crumble as a house could without structural integrity.

Sorry for double post, just wanted to make a separate comment regarding this discussion about performance integrity versus perception of the viewer. I believe the viewer is completely responsible for how they feel about the experience. It's a little absurd to be any other way right? Think about it, you can find reasons or excuses to blame for the experience not being how you imagined, but that's what you get for bringing in those sort of expectations. You can completely choose how you feel about it, so I think it's up to you whether you enjoy the experience or not, not the performer to live up to any ones specific expectations. I'm fairly sure they're already trying to give it their all so anything short of perfection is probably just a point of view, if the performers are doing the best they can.

I guess to clarify what I'm saying by your examples, the integrity of a house can only be so strong. At a certain point, you have to essentially take it on faith that the builders and structural engineers did their job properly and did the best they could so you can comfortably be in the house without the fear of it crumbling. I believe DT already have their own performance integrity, and it's up to the viewer to believe or not believe in that. You don't have to match them, but you are responsible for how emotionally disconnected or connected you feel about the show surely, fubs and all as they're part of it too.

Offline TheAtliator

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2014, 08:02:35 PM »
Whoa whoa whoa, first of all, when I say "tampered with" I am most certainly not referring to EQ or reverb effects and such. That's just part of mixing/ mastering. Yes technically you could call that "tampering", but I'm pretty sure no one here is referring to that (right?). I only mean re-recording or tuning any section of vocals. Sorry for the misunderstanding, if there is one!

Point #2, I'm actually really surprised people would disagree with me on this!

Firstly, it has absolutely nothing to do with expectations. If someone makes a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, adds ketchup into it, and serves it to you, it does not taste terrible because you didn't expect the ketchup. It tastes terrible because ketchup goes terrible in peanut butter and jelly.

Secondly, it's preposterous to say that you have total control over whether something you're experiencing is pleasurable or not. The only thing you have control over is your preconceived notions and your attitude. Beyond that, it's left up to the traits of the experience itself and your natural opinions of those traits. Whether you are served that sandwich hoping for it to be delicious, really wanting to like it, or expecting it to be terrible, either way it's gonna suck.

Also, if you say "I believe DT already have their own performance integrity" you don't really understand the meaning of the word, because integrity is entirely objective (The house will either fall over or it won't). Maybe what you mean to say is that what DT consider integrated is in disagreement with what I would consider integrated. In that case, then we'd have a discussion because we could debate which definition is actually true.

Offline GentlemanofDread

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Re: Do you hope the vocals on the new DVD will not be tampered with?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2014, 08:05:22 PM »
Well, if we're talking about integrity, then DT lost it when they released Live at the Marquee.
i don't even like dt but i had keyboard and an ipad so what the fuck
Jordan is actually DT's tax advisor. He just happens to do their taxes on stage, that's why he has that iPad there.