Rate DT members in terms of stage presence

[Madman Shepherd]

Simpler music does not equate for the necessity of stage presence.

It doesn't hurt. I love Twister Sister's music, but I'd have absolutely no reason or interest in seeing their live DVDs if all they did was stand there and play their music. But seeing the way Dee Snider engages the audience, and interacts with everyone, that's the fun part of seeing their live show.

Same with KISS. They never would have become such a sensation if they didn't have that visual appeal to them. And maybe that doesn't necessarily equate to stage presence, but it's still something that gives the audience an appealing show to LOOK at, not just listen to. And in addition to the costumes, they engage the audience really well, from what I've seen.

Simpler music might not equate to NECESSITY for greater stage presence, but that's not to say that stage presence counts for nothing, either. Iron Maiden's music isn't even simple, and Bruce Dickinson's stage presence is still a huge asset to their live shows.

You make a great point.  Black Sabbath is probably my favorite band of all time but they are pretty boring to watch.  When they had Dio they were as good as any other live band but with ZombieOzzy, they just aren't that great to watch.  I really had no intention of seeing that again after 2004 because it was such a boring show but I took every opportunity to see them when they had Dio. 

[King Postwhore]

Simpler music does not equate for the necessity of stage presence.

It doesn't hurt. I love Twister Sister's music, but I'd have absolutely no reason or interest in seeing their live DVDs if all they did was stand there and play their music. But seeing the way Dee Snider engages the audience, and interacts with everyone, that's the fun part of seeing their live show.

Same with KISS. They never would have become such a sensation if they didn't have that visual appeal to them. And maybe that doesn't necessarily equate to stage presence, but it's still something that gives the audience an appealing show to LOOK at, not just listen to. And in addition to the costumes, they engage the audience really well, from what I've seen.

Simpler music might not equate to NECESSITY for greater stage presence, but that's not to say that stage presence counts for nothing, either. Iron Maiden's music isn't even simple, and Bruce Dickinson's stage presence is still a huge asset to their live shows.

Kiss went in making music and wanted to make the visual the focal point.  They admitted that and that's where your logic is flawed.  They didn't have the visuals because their music was not technical.  Kiss went out with a purpose to being the visual into music.  That's the difference.

Besides I've seen plenty of hair metal bands, that stood around and I enjoyed their show.  Remember, I'm old.

[Jay.Ess]

Sometimes the best stage presence is in the performance, and connecting on the emotional level with the audience, and not always needing to run around the stage or play outwardly energetically.

For me, Dream Theater do have good stage presence (not fantastic, but good) and that is due to their performance and their consistency, and the ability to connect to the audience.

Have you tried playing some of those difficult passages in odd time signatures whilst running around? That shit's not happening 

[TheGreatPretender]

Kiss went in making music and wanted to make the visual the focal point.  They admitted that and that's where your logic is flawed. They didn't have the visuals because their music was not technical.  Kiss went out with a purpose to being the visual into music.  That's the difference.

Besides I've seen plenty of hair metal bands, that stood around and I enjoyed their show.  Remember, I'm old.

Not really. I never said that bands acquire stage presence when they realize that their music isn't technical enough to keep audiences' attention. But if a band goes into it with having that visual aspect in mind, then they don't need to have technical music, because there is that visual spectacle and they know it. I don't see how making it intentional from the get go changes my argument.

Actually though, I think more to the point is that oftentimes stage presence and precision have a hard time coexisting. Not necessarily always, but it's like someone mentioned, JP said that he was hard on himself making mistakes, so he stopped the horsing around. A lot of bands sound a lot better on their albums than they do on stage, and it's those bands that benefit greatly from having stage presence, because even if the singer might not hit all the notes while on stage, he'll still rock out to the utmost and give everybody a hell of a show.

Besides, I don't know which bands you refer to, but it's like I said about Megadeth. When Dave Mustaine got onto that stage, and just stood there with his guitar, in the spotlight, before he even struck a single note, he already emanated great energy and great stage presence. So it depends on the person, and there's not always the need for running around and hyping up the audience.
And honestly, maybe not to the same extent, but Petrucci is the same way. You put that spotlight on him and let him do his thing on the guitar, and that's all you need. And when he does the duo thing with Myung, or with Rudess on his keytar, and all those extra little touches, that's just icing.

[wasteland]

Having seen them not twelve hours ago, the ratings are fresh:

JLB
JP
JR
MM
JMX

I think a point that gets easily overlooked is how much Jordan interacts with the crowd, whenever he's actually playing or just pumping the crowd.

[King Postwhore]

TheGreatPretender, you make it sound like Kiss knew their music was easy to play and so they "had" to have the stage show.  I'm saying they decided even before writing and recording that they wanted to put on that kind of stage show.

I find that a very pompous attitude and I'm a prog lover myself.  Some bands want to get the fans involved by putting on that kind of show and some think, my music is enough.  I have not problem with either.

 

[TheGreatPretender]

TheGreatPretender, you make it sound like Kiss knew their music was easy to play and so they "had" to have the stage show.  I'm saying they decided even before writing and recording that they wanted to put on that kind of stage show.

I find that a very pompous attitude and I'm a prog lover myself.  Some bands want to get the fans involved by putting on that kind of show and some think, my music is enough.  I have not problem with either.

But there are quite a few bands out there, who, even if their music was enjoyable to listen on their album, are a complete bore to watch live, because they don't do anything to engage the fans. They stand around, and just play and sing, and for some bands that might be enough, but for others, it's really not. I'm sorry if there are bands out there that bore me because of their lack of stage presence, but that's how I feel. I don't see how that's pompous.

[King Postwhore]

I was referring to your first post.

"With bands like Kiss and Twisted Sister, they need stage presence, because their music is a lot simpler..."

I'm with you with the entertainment part.  Better for us fans but just because the music is simpler doesn't mean they have to have a stage presence like you talk about.  That's what irks me.

[TAC]

DT has no more stage presence than Rush. But somehow, especially if you've seen them multiple times, you kind if get the feeling if they're into it or not. That can change the entire experience.

[TheGreatPretender]

I was referring to your first post.

"With bands like Kiss and Twisted Sister, they need stage presence, because their music is a lot simpler..."

I'm with you with the entertainment part.  Better for us fans but just because the music is simpler doesn't mean they have to have a stage presence like you talk about.  That's what irks me.

Well, I'm a big fan of Twisted Sister, like I said. And personally, if all they did was stand around on their live shows and performed their songs, I'd find it pretty pointless. I mean, I'd get nothing more out of it than I would out of just listening to their albums. And yes, it's because their music is simple. It's incredibly catchy and has some great riffs, solos and hooks, but because of its simplicity, I can't say the sheer idea of seeing people performing the songs as they are is particularly entertaining.
But as it stands, I love watching their live shows, precisely because Dee Snider is so animated and brings the entire concert hall to life by emanating this terrific energy and connecting with the crowd. That's what makes a Twisted Sister concert worth seeing. And without it, I'd be content just listening to the albums.

Again, I can't speak for your personal experiences. But there were plenty of Glam metal bands (or at least musicians within said bands) that had enough virtuosity in their playing that it was still impressive to watch. Heck, if I went to see Dokken back in the day, and they just stood around playing like a bunch of trees, I'd still find it entertaining just for the Don's vocal range alone, along with the awesome face melting guitar solos, even though the songs themselves may not have been that complex. It's still impressive.

[TAC]

Don Dokken was literally one of the worst front men that I ever saw in the 80's.

[TheGreatPretender]

Don Dokken was literally one of the worst front men that I ever saw in the 80's.

To be honest, I've never really seen any Dokken concert footage. But if he actually hit those notes while in concert, then I wouldn't care how bad of a front man he was.

[King Postwhore]

Gotcha sir!

Tim, the band kicked so much ass back in the day it made up for Don's bad singing.

[TAC]

Here's some great footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxCrAL5j_nA

Don Dokken just came off like such an asshole. The first few times I saw them I couldn't stand him. He was much better at the Monsters Of Rock show. I also saw them on their 95 club tour and they were great!

[King Postwhore]

Tim you should add the date of the Monster Of Rock tour for all the youngster you old bastard.

[MoraWintersoul]

Tim you should add the date of the Monster Of Rock tour for all the youngster you old bastard.

The underestimation of youngsters on this forum is unbearable! Trust us, we know when some of the cool stuff happened sometimes.

[TAC]

Tim you should add the date of the Monster Of Rock tour for all the youngster you old bastard.

Giants Stadium
June 26, 1988

Took this shot while Metallica was on stage.


Also speaking of Dokken, saw them open for Priest in Providence on June 4, 1986.
Look who was standing next to us while Priest was on!

[TheGreatPretender]

Here's some great footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxCrAL5j_nA

Don Dokken just came off like such an asshole. The first few times I saw them I couldn't stand him. He was much better at the Monsters Of Rock show. I also saw them on their 95 club tour and they were great!

Well, I didn't watch the concert from beginning to end, but skimming through some of the performances and some of the crowd talk between songs, I don't see how he's an asshole. (Unless you were one of the guys who WASN'T getting laid.  ) He engages the crowd, moves around on stage, and his performance is pretty solid, if you ask me. I mean, if I had to rank him, I'd say he gets a solid 6.5/10 as a front man. 10/10 being Bruce Dickinson, and 1/10 being... Umm... This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z78YGXZWkZY

[King Postwhore]

Tim you should add the date of the Monster Of Rock tour for all the youngster you old bastard.

The underestimation of youngsters on this forum is unbearable! Trust us, we know when some of the cool stuff happened sometimes.

You my love are a different breed of youngsters.   

[bl5150]

Van Hagar co-headlined those gigs - any good/bad memories of that Tim?  From their point of view it was a bit of a financial disaster if memory serves correct .

[TAC]

Van Hagar co-headlined those gigs - any good/bad memories of that Tim?  From their point of view it was a bit of a financial disaster if memory serves correct .

Van Hagar was great. Of course, I liked OU812 way more than 5150. The first album/tour cycle round easily went to DLR, but I would see Van Hagar many times from 86-94 and they always put on a great show.


@TGP, RE: Don Dokken. I'm only going by memory here, but the first couple times I had seen them I was severely disappointed. Don Dokken, to me, came off as smug and arrogant in his demeanor, but especially his stage banter. I haven't watched that vid either, but if Vince Neil was talking about getting laid, I could go with that, but I guess I went in having higher expectaions for Dokken. Now on the MOR tour in '88, it was my third time seeing Dokken, and I will say that somehow, he was completely different. He was good in all aspects.

[MoraWintersoul]

Tim you should add the date of the Monster Of Rock tour for all the youngster you old bastard.

The underestimation of youngsters on this forum is unbearable! Trust us, we know when some of the cool stuff happened sometimes.

You my love are a different breed of youngsters.   

I'm very happy right now

[mikemangioy]

MP
JR
JLB
JP
MM
DS
KM
JM

[tiagodon]

They all suck on stage! ahahahah
No, that is not true. Mangini rocks and Rudess rocks. Considering their instruments, both have good stage presence. And that's it.

[Stadler]

I will never understand this stage presence thing.  If you interact with the crowd somewhat and master your instrument then why ask for anything else?  I don't want five people on stage commanding attention.  I also don't want it overdone.  If JLB was doing cartwheels on stage would that give him better stage presence?  Not in my mind.  It would look fucking dumb (although I hope he does at one gig...if for nothing else to shut people up that say there were no surprises night to night). 

I also don't understand how MP is any more entertaining to watch than MM. 

I'll go one step further, everyone says MP is clearly the better entertainer and MM is clearly the better musician...I say bullshit. 

MM is plenty fucking fun to watch.  He has crazy expressions.  He is looking out into the crowd and smiling, making faces at other DT members, doing one handed snare rolls, and just looks like he is having the time of his life. 

MP may not be as musically trained as MM but he certainly has done about as many complex patterns or interesting deviations from the norm that I would say he is about as good of a musician as MM. 

JLB interacts with the crowd enough, throws a couple high fives, cracks a few jokes, has his patented jibber jabber, points out into the crowd to make people feel connected, that I don't see how he can have any less of a stage presence than MP. 

Same with Jordan with the main exception that he doesn't leave his place except for keytar (and yes, it is a keytar) solos.

The one who clearly does not have much stage presence is JM and that is cool.  He still intereacts enough with the other guys to not be boring but its good to have a stoic member to balance them out.

First, I think it goes without saying that it depends on what your interest is.   I don't care how virtuostic a performance is, with the rarest of exceptions (Stevie Ray Vaughn comes to mind) I don't want to see a band just standing there.  I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Cars, but it was one of the most boring shows I've ever seen because they literally did not move and simply played one hour and 30 minutes of music almost note for note from the record, and that was it.  ZZ Top was the same way.   

Second, I think it goes without saying that it depends on the person:  I know the six times I've seen Robert Plant live, I felt like a little school girl (I'm a 46 yo straight male) watching his every move.  The guy has stage charisma like I've never seen.  Interestingly enough, the one time I saw him, Liam Gallagher was the same way.   In contrast, my opinion only, but watching Steve Rothery or Mark Kelly, well, sometimes I even wonder if they are still on stage. 

Third, I think it is important to see how the band interacts.   Ignore the fact that they are the same "instrument", but I don't think Dickinson (by the way, my standard by which all other front men are judged) could or should coexist in the same band as Dee Snider, and I think they serve the same purpose:  take the "performance heat" off the other members.   Dave Murray and Jay Jay French do not need to be Yngwie because they have front men to handle that.  Another example of this is Yes; Chris Squire is - or, as I understand it, was, as I haven't seen him live since I think the Union tour - a magnetic stage performer, which meant that Steve Howe and Jon Anderson didn't have to be. 

For me, not having seen KM or DS live (just on video) I would put it like this:
MP
JP

JR
MM


JLB
JM

No knock on JM or JLB, that just isn't their need in the band.  I am sort of split on JLB:  I think he gets far too little credit for his vocals (I frankly cannot imagine DT without his vocals, and it is one of the things that got me into the band back in '91) and I think he gets far too much credit for being a front man (I think he is horrible as a front man and can do without the over-exaggerated rockisms: "Hello Phil-a -del-PHHHHHHEEEEEEEE-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!  We're gonna RAAAAAAAWWWWWWKKKKKKKK to-nigh-EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!")

[As I Am]

MP 10/10
Jordan 7/10
JP 6/10

The rest all fail!

[son_ov_hades]

I honestly think Charlie Dominici had the best stage presence. 

[TheGreatPretender]

I honestly think Charlie Dominici had the best stage presence. 

You were just mesmerized by dat hair.

[TheMunz]

I think on their current tour Jordan has a ton of stage presence. When I saw them back in March two of the moments I remember the best were during Overture 1928 when he stuck his face up toward his overhead camera to give the audience the impression that he was looking at them, as well as the one or two songs where he brought out his keytar and got to play right in front of the audience. Things he does like that make up for the fact that he's normally standing in the back and not facing the crowd.

Sadly, that was the first DT show I've been to, so I've never gotten to see MP live, but from watching live videos it seems like he's really fun to watch. Mangini doesn't necessarily have bad stage presence (you definitely notice him with that huge kit), but I feel like if it was possible to move him up a few feet he'd have a much bigger impact on the crowd. As it is, he's stuck in the back and with his setup it's hard to see what he's doing.

[Rodni Demental]

Anyone that's watched DTs version of 'Dark Side of the Moon' might remember this; I think it's during Any Color You Like, Jordan just starts casually strolling around to the other side of the keyboard (the darkside?  ) and just keeps playing upside down as if nothing's changed. And it's not exactly a particularly simple bit either, he's practically soloing if I recall, it's really quite phenomenal and I found it fairly amusing when I wasn't expecting it.

JRs the man.   

[detemete]

I'm genuinely surprised when people talk about stage presence not being a big deal. Anyone that has ever set foot on a stage with an instrument in their hands would immediately say how important it's to engage the crowd. After being able to play your music properly, it's the single most important part of the live experience. Imagine no lightning, no stage design, no visual elements, just 5 guys standing up stiff and playing their songs perfectly. You might as well stay home and listen to the CD. From a rock n roll point of view, what's fun with that?

With that being said, my ranking would be something like this:

MP
JR
JLB
JP
MM
JMX