The official Opeth thread v. In Cauda Venenum

[Riitasointi]

Anyway, as I said, of course Heritage and PC have a similar vibe, but I think that's where it ends.

That's it really, to me that "vibe" is everything basically. I don't know how to put this more clearly but to me the atmosphere an album creates is the most important thing. And that's why I love Opeth! They have an amazing emotional quality to their music even when the style has changed in the 2010s.

I really dig River now, which is a very good sign for the future of this album. It's has a very positive, uplifting and soothing quality to it, something that I can't really say of many Opeth songs. Very interesting piece with some great vocal harmonies and melodic guitar.

That's part of the fun though.

Definitely! 

[Mladen]

I found that positive vibe of The River to be slightly off-putting at first, but it has grown on me. Especially because the rest of the song is fantastic, some truly unpredictable moments in the later half of it.

[Podaar]

So, I was sitting in the front room, reading, and listening to Pale Communion last night. Mrs. P came in and sat in her favorite chair and started reading her own book. Time passes in the marital bliss that is sitting together in the same room while a light rain falls outside and the dog snores quietly from the floor, consuming literature and music simultaneously.

About two minutes after the album ends, the Missus looks up from her book and asks,"Who was that?"

"You mean the music?"

"Of course the music you silly old fool!" She says with a crooked smile.

"Opeth, ya ornry ol' battleaxe"

"The depressing Swedish orcs?!" She exclaims with much surprise.

  I pretty much just dissolved into a giggling puddle at that point. Anyway, after I could breath and comprehend human speech, she told me she really liked it and wants me to put the album onto general rotation for the house stereo. I guess they made a new fan!

[Zydar]

Well that's a new description for the band

[Podaar]

Well that's a new description for the band

I guess you have to think of it from a total outsiders point of view. I mean the most radical music she listens to is Depeche Mode (which I like too). She's only ever noticed Opeth when one of their heavy/growl songs are on and while intruding on me working in the garage or coming home from being out with friends and heard me playing it. Always in the past she would ask, "Who is that?" as if she were holding her nose and just barely her gorge. I would tell her, of course, and explain where they were from and the genre of music. I would even explain why I liked it but it's obvious (now) what her take away was. 

[Dr. DTVT]

I think we'd all be a lot better if we didn't have to defend our opinions.  I listened to the album four times now, and nothing is grabbing my attention, therefore I am not particularly enjoying it.  It is when people force others to analyze the music, try to put their finger on what they don't like, and defend their opinions that the counterarguments start to take the original premise too far or over extrapolate that these arguments happen.  If someone, black_floyd for instance, misses the heaviness, he's allowed to.  In my case, I like Damnation and other non-heavy music from other bands, so I don't think that is the issue for me.  When I try to quantify what I don't like about it because "I don't like it" isn't an acceptable answer to people who like it or feel the need to defend Mikael, I trying to point to something that I honestly have not put my finger on.  In the interim, my official stance on Pale Communion is, "All I know is that when I listen to it nothing grabs my attention and makes me want to listen."  I hope you enjoy the album, and I honestly hope I come around on it too, but seeing that I still feel the same way about Heritage as I did when that came out, I don't see that happening. 

[Dark Castle]

I think we'd all be a lot better if we didn't have to defend our opinions.  I listened to the album four times now, and nothing is grabbing my attention, therefore I am not particularly enjoying it.  It is when people force others to analyze the music, try to put their finger on what they don't like, and defend their opinions that the counterarguments start to take the original premise too far or over extrapolate that these arguments happen.  If someone, black_floyd for instance, misses the heaviness, he's allowed to.  In my case, I like Damnation and other non-heavy music from other bands, so I don't think that is the issue for me.  When I try to quantify what I don't like about it because "I don't like it" isn't an acceptable answer to people who like it or feel the need to defend Mikael, I trying to point to something that I honestly have not put my finger on.  In the interim, my official stance on Pale Communion is, "All I know is that when I listen to it nothing grabs my attention and makes me want to listen."  I hope you enjoy the album, and I honestly hope I come around on it too, but seeing that I still feel the same way about Heritage as I did when that came out, I don't see that happening.

[hefdaddy42]

I think it's great if we ARE able to discuss and point out specific criticisms of music, film, TV, whatever, but sometimes you just don't like it.

That is definitely tough for some people here to accept.

Thus far, the person whose views I agree with most on this album are ariich.  But I totally see why longtime Opeth fans have misgivings about this album (or outright don't like it).

[KevShmev]

Agreed, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and some people simply don't like the new albums.

I do find a lot of inconsistency though. People say "it's not because the albums aren't heavy, it's just because they aren't good", but then follow up by saying "if I want 70s prog I have plenty of better albums to listen to". Surely that's the case for death metal as well though. If it's about quality and not genre, then why even mention the 70s prog thing? (I'm not including black_floyd in this, because he's been pretty open about hating the lack of heaviness).

Also, I find it a bit rich that people jumped down PROGdrummer's throat for suggesting that the older Opeth albums were samey, while insisting that Heritage and Pale Communion are the same. Those two albums are as different as any of the "death metal era minus Damnation" ones.

Agreed.

[Zantera]

I also think some people (and this is not just with Opeth, but in other threads as well) keep coming back with the same post over and over, and that's what gets some people riled up, and not the opinion itself. Saying a couple of times that you didn't like the album/direction or whatever is one thing, but sometimes it's like people keep coming back with 25 posts about it. As soon as someone else has replied to the thread with their opinion, these people feel the need to post yet another post about their thoughts on the album. At that point it becomes a "yeah we get it", and some people go into defend mode with the "it's all just opinions".

Again, not pointing out anyone specific here, but sometimes it's not the opinion itself but how you chose to express it. And this happens quite often in other threads as well, so some people probably don't even think about it. For example, I recently browsed through the Oceansize-thread and found probably 10-15 posts by myself in 2-3 pages about pretty much the exact same opinion, I did not notice it at the time, but in hindsight, I could totally see how that would be frustrating to some. Not the opinions themselves, but going through the same stuff for so many posts. Sometimes you don't realize you do it until afterwards. 

[hefdaddy42]

Nice.

[PROGdrummer]

The way your post was worded, as well as most others sharing that sentiment, comes off as basically saying the metal fans will just take whatever's shoveled onto their plates with no critical thought process involved whatsoever since you put it this way...

I definitely didnt mean it like that. All i was really trying to say was that its nice to have some variety in Opeth's discography. As someone else stated, the band had remained consistent from Orchid to Watershed, with every album having a really similar tone and sound, and song's being structured similarly.
Now there's been a change in the songwriting, its far more old-school prog, a little jazzy. It's nice.
Its nice to have both Death Metal and Progressive Rock in one discography.

[ChuckSteak]

I agree when people say Opeth stopped at Ghost Reveries. Of course they made some good songs on Watershed and Heritage, but nothing on the same level. He can barely growl anymore. Just watch any youtube video from 2008 to 2014 or the Albert Hall concert and then get a bootleg from 2000-2004 (or the 5 growl songs from Lamentation) and compare the level. It sounds totally different and much more energetic, brutal. He had total control over his growls. Today he can't even hold his growls long..

I don't know about the others, but the reasons why I listen to Opeth are the growls, death metal passages, heavy riffs. I also love the soft, mellow passages, but Opeth for me is 80% heavy with growls and 20% mellow.

Even if you make an album of Opeth ballads from 1995 to 2005 you have a better album than Pale Communion or Heritage, in my opinion

Get Benighted, A Fair Judgement, To Bid You Farewell, Credence, Face Of Melinda, Harvest, Hours Of Wealth (beautiful ballad) and Isolation Years. IMO, every and each one of those songs are better than anything in Heritage or Pale Communion. So.. it is not because Pale Communion and Heritage don't have growls that I don't like it. I don't have anything against the change of sound, but they aren't doing songs on the same level.

[seasonsinthesky]

Even if you make an album of Opeth ballads from 1995 to 2005 you have a better album than Pale Communion or Heritage, in my opinion.

Get Benighted, A Fair Judgement, To Bid You Farewell, Credence, Face Of Melinda, Harvest, Hours Of Wealth (beautiful ballad) and Isolation Years. IMO, every and each one of those songs are better than anything in Heritage or Pale Communion. So.. it is not because Pale Communion and Heritage don't have growls that I don't like it.

totally agreed — they've been ripping off Camel and other old prog bands from the start with great results; it's just now that the whole thing comes off stale for me because the variety is gone. it doesn't have to be death metal vs. Camel, it doesn't need to be keyboardless... it's just Opeth focusing on one side of their sound as a permanent direction and that really, really removes a big part of why i listen to them. (obviously, i realize the validity that the old albums are there to listen to forever, and that by the time they made Watershed, it was clear that the old formulas were failing.)

[Onno]

I think we'd all be a lot better if we didn't have to defend our opinions.  I listened to the album four times now, and nothing is grabbing my attention, therefore I am not particularly enjoying it.  It is when people force others to analyze the music, try to put their finger on what they don't like, and defend their opinions that the counterarguments start to take the original premise too far or over extrapolate that these arguments happen.  If someone, black_floyd for instance, misses the heaviness, he's allowed to.  In my case, I like Damnation and other non-heavy music from other bands, so I don't think that is the issue for me.  When I try to quantify what I don't like about it because "I don't like it" isn't an acceptable answer to people who like it or feel the need to defend Mikael, I trying to point to something that I honestly have not put my finger on.  In the interim, my official stance on Pale Communion is, "All I know is that when I listen to it nothing grabs my attention and makes me want to listen."  I hope you enjoy the album, and I honestly hope I come around on it too, but seeing that I still feel the same way about Heritage as I did when that came out, I don't see that happening.

I agree with you. However, while I mostly hate discussions in which everyone tries to prove everyone else right or wrong and am very reluctant to engage in these discussions, I do enjoy discussions which have the sole aim of trying to understand why people have a different opinion from one another. My purpose in the discussion about Heritage and Pale Communion has never been the former, but rather the latter. Let me give an example.

If someone states that Heritage and PC sound like 70s prog rock, I accept that. I even agree on that. However, if someone states that they do not sound like Opeth albums, I don't quite understand why that person thinks that. Rather than trying to prove that they sound like Opeth albums, I prefer to explain why I think they sound like Opeth albums, i.e. by stating examples of where I think the music sounds like classic Opeth, and discussing about what makes them not sound like typical Opeth albums.

To sum it up: I don't have anything against people who don't like Heritage or PC, and I don't mean to try to prove them wrong. I do, however, enjoy discussion about why some people like these albums and others don't like them. If you don't want to do that, that's fine I don't mean to attack anyone's opinions, and I don't think I did. But if someone feels I've done that, please tell me

[devieira73]

More sort of a "Ghost Reveries to today" fan here )

Going a little off the topic, but taking the opportunity, could someone tell me what are the Opeth songs without growls pre-Ghost Reveries (without the entire Damnation, of course)?

Thanks!

[Evermind]

Well, while I can't contribute anything to the new album discussion because according to Amazon it will arrive at 16th September (), I just wanted to say it's different strokes for different folks. The only albums from Opeth I fully enjoy are Damnation and Heritage, and that's not because I didn't try; I have all their albums except the first one. There are cool bits and sections here and there, but when the growls come up, I just want to turn it off. Even though they are damn impressive. Just not my thing.

With all that, I'm sure I will enjoy Pale Communion too. I thought Eternal Rains and The Cusp were quite good, and I can't wait to hear the rest of the record. But I totally can understand people who's disappointed with new mellow-proggy direction or with songs' quality. It's just tastes, everyone has the different ones.

Get Benighted, A Fair Judgement, To Bid You Farewell, Credence, Face Of Melinda, Harvest, Hours Of Wealth (beautiful ballad) and Isolation Years. IMO, every and each one of those songs are better than anything in Heritage or Pale Communion.

Well, again, matter of opinions. I enjoyed Folklore, The Devil's Orchard, both Heritage and Marrow of the Earth for their simplicity (maybe something else from Heritage, but as I'm always listening to it as a whole, I don't recall which song comes after which in the middle ), and both Rains and Cusp the same, or maybe even more than some of those songs. Hours of Wealth is glorious though, that I totally agree with. 

All in all, I just can't wait for the new record to arrive. 

[Onno]

More sort of a "Ghost Reveries to today" fan here )

Going a little off the topic, but taking the opportunity, could someone tell me what are the Opeth songs without growls pre-Ghost Reveries (without the entire Damnation, of course)?

Thanks!

Silhouette and Requiem from Orchid (though they're both instrumental transition tracks, not really full songs)
To Bid You Farewell from Morningrise
Prologue, Madrigal, Epilogue (all instrumental) and Credence from My Arms, Your Hearse
Benighted and Face of Melinda from Still Life
Harvest and Patterns in the Ivy from Blackwater Park (PITY is instrumental)
A Fair Judgement and For Absent Friends from Deliverance (FAF is instrumental)

In addition, the bonus tracks Patterns in the Ivy II and Still Day Beneath The Sun from the limited edition of Blackwater Park are also growlless.

[Podaar]

@ Onno,

Yea, I guess I should explain that my posts have been more aimed at why I think the last two albums still belong in the discography rather than to argue against people who don't. I totally get it even though I don't feel the same.

Anyway, ITT, the only one who's opinion has been coldly and cruelly attacked is mine...and by my own true love, to boot! 

More sort of a "Ghost Reveries to today" fan here )

Funny that, I was listening to Ghost Reveries yesterday and I thought that if you changed the occasional growls to singing, turned down the gain on the amps and turned off the chorus pedal, Ghost of Perdition would be a middle of the pack Heritage song. That's just my view and not meant as a negative criticism...remember, I really dig both albums. A lot.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Well, while I can't contribute anything to the new album discussion because according to Amazon it will arrive at 16th September (), I just wanted to say it's different strokes for different folks. The only albums from Opeth I fully enjoy are Damnation and Heritage, and that's not because I didn't try; I have all their albums except the first one. There are cool bits and sections here and there, but when the growls come up, I just want to turn it off. Even though they are damn impressive. Just not my thing.

....Why?

[Evermind]

Well, while I can't contribute anything to the new album discussion because according to Amazon it will arrive at 16th September (), I just wanted to say it's different strokes for different folks. The only albums from Opeth I fully enjoy are Damnation and Heritage, and that's not because I didn't try; I have all their albums except the first one. There are cool bits and sections here and there, but when the growls come up, I just want to turn it off. Even though they are damn impressive. Just not my thing.

....Why?

I just bought the whole discography except the debut back in 2009 with some mad thoughts like "if this won't help me to get into growls, nothing will". Dunno what I was thinking really.

My friend who tolerates growls well enough always borrows them though. 

[Dark Castle]

@ Onno,

Yea, I guess I should explain that my posts have been more aimed at why I think the last two albums still belong in the discography rather than to argue against people who don't. I totally get it even though I don't feel the same.

Anyway, ITT, the only one who's opinion has been coldly and cruelly attacked is mine...and by my own true love, to boot! 

More sort of a "Ghost Reveries to today" fan here )

Funny that, I was listening to Ghost Reveries yesterday and I thought that if you changed the occasional growls to singing, turned down the gain on the amps and turned off the chorus pedal, Ghost of Perdition would be a middle of the pack Heritage song. That's just my view and not meant as a negative criticism...remember, I really dig both albums. A lot.

So pretty much if you changed everything about the song sound wise it would sound like a Heritage song? Also disagree, partially because the drumming is metal as fuck in that song, amongst other reasons.

[theseoafs]

Wow, this thread is a mess.

I like Heritage and the new album.  I never liked Opeth's harsh vocals so I welcome the direction they seem to be going in for the long term.

[Podaar]

DC, I just think we're listening with different ears--which is all good. Vive la différence. I agree it's metal as fuck but, and here's the tricky part, so is Folklore from Heritage...IF you turned up the gain on the amps, stomped on the chorus pedal and growled out the lyrics! 

[Dark Castle]

DC, I just think we're listening with different ears--which is all good. Vive la différence. I agree it's metal as fuck but, and here's the tricky part, so is Folklore from Heritage...IF you turned up the gain on the amps, stomped on the chorus pedal and growled out the lyrics! 

Well no offense but....that's kind of an obvious conclusion to those additions.

[Onno]

In Podaar's example, I agree it would change the sound; however, that change in sound to me is relatively close to, say, if a band did an acoustic version of one of their existing songs. In principle, that does not changes the structure and idea behind the song, but it does change the sound.  An example of this is Demon of the Fall. Since I believe many of you who dislike Heritage and PC also didn't really like the acoustic version of DotF very much, I think I can now better understand why you don't like Heritage and PC. Although I prefer the original version of DotF, I also like the acoustic version. Maybe that's why I like Heritage and PC and still think those albums sound like classic Opeth, although a bit differently?

[?]

In Podaar's example, I agree it would change the sound; however, that change in sound to me is relatively close to, say, if a band did an acoustic version of one of their existing songs. In principle, that does not changes the structure and idea behind the song, but it does change the sound.  An example of this is Demon of the Fall. Since I believe many of you who dislike Heritage and PC also didn't really like the acoustic version of DotF very much, I think I can now better understand why you don't like Heritage and PC. Although I prefer the original version of DotF, I also like the acoustic version. Maybe that's why I like Heritage and PC and still think those albums sound like classic Opeth, although a bit differently?

I can hear a lot of echoes of Damnation and GR on Pale Communion. I don't understand the "this sounds nothing like old Opeth" comments, because 70s prog has always been a big part of the Opeth sound, and it's not like they took a 180-degree turn with Heritage. Mikael has been a songwriter for 25 years and created a distinct style that's still all over the new stuff - you can't escape your past competely. Dismissing Heritage and PC as 70s worship with no originality is unfair, because these albums still have an eerie and dark feel that you can't find it in most of 70s prog. While songs like Cusp and Eternal Rains may not be metal, you can hear that they were written by someone with a metal background.

Also, the only direct 70s rip-off in the Opeth discography is in Benighted, and that song was released 15 years ago.

[Dark Castle]

In Podaar's example, I agree it would change the sound; however, that change in sound to me is relatively close to, say, if a band did an acoustic version of one of their existing songs. In principle, that does not changes the structure and idea behind the song, but it does change the sound.  An example of this is Demon of the Fall. Since I believe many of you who dislike Heritage and PC also didn't really like the acoustic version of DotF very much, I think I can now better understand why you don't like Heritage and PC. Although I prefer the original version of DotF, I also like the acoustic version. Maybe that's why I like Heritage and PC and still think those albums sound like classic Opeth, although a bit differently?

I do like Heritage though 

[Onno]

Oh, wow! That's interesting. I'm sorry if you've already posted about this and I missed it, but it's hard to keep track of everything, so could you tell me why exactly you don't like PC while you do like Heritage?

[Dark Castle]

Oh, wow! That's interesting. I'm sorry if you've already posted about this and I missed it, but it's hard to keep track of everything, so could you tell me why exactly you don't like PC while you do like Heritage?

To keep it short, sweet, mildly sweatered, and simple, while I think Heritage has it's problems, it has some pretty outstanding tracks, despite it's wandering aimlessly, where as PC for me just feels like retreading, and aimlessly noodling. It's a more active album I suppose but nothing grabs my interest at all or stays in my head compared to Heritage which has some pretty damned good moments.

[hefdaddy42]

While I was on my lunchtime walk, Ghost of Perdition came up on Pandora.  Fuck yes

[ChuckSteak]

To keep it short, sweet, mildly sweltered, and simple, while I think Heritage has it's problems, it has some pretty outstanding tracks, despite it's wandering aimlessly, where as PC for me just feels like retreading, and aimlessly noodling. It's a more active album I suppose but nothing grabs my interest at all or stays in my head compared to Heritage which has some pretty damned good moments.

Agreed. I like Heritage too, but not as much as the other albums. Pale Communion is the only album I dislike.

[devieira73]

Thanks a lot, Onno!    I'll try to listen them.

More sort of a "Ghost Reveries to today" fan here )

Going a little off the topic, but taking the opportunity, could someone tell me what are the Opeth songs without growls pre-Ghost Reveries (without the entire Damnation, of course)?

Thanks!

Silhouette and Requiem from Orchid (though they're both instrumental transition tracks, not really full songs)


To Bid You Farewell from Morningrise
Prologue, Madrigal, Epilogue (all instrumental) and Credence from My Arms, Your Hearse
Benighted and Face of Melinda from Still Life
Harvest and Patterns in the Ivy from Blackwater Park (PITY is instrumental)
A Fair Judgement and For Absent Friends from Deliverance (FAF is instrumental)

In addition, the bonus tracks Patterns in the Ivy II and Still Day Beneath The Sun from the limited edition of Blackwater Park are also growlless.

[TioJorge]

Patterns In The Ivy II, oh my god my love for this song. 

[Onno]

Oh, wow! That's interesting. I'm sorry if you've already posted about this and I missed it, but it's hard to keep track of everything, so could you tell me why exactly you don't like PC while you do like Heritage?

To keep it short, sweet, mildly sweltered, and simple, while I think Heritage has it's problems, it has some pretty outstanding tracks, despite it's wandering aimlessly, where as PC for me just feels like retreading, and aimlessly noodling. It's a more active album I suppose but nothing grabs my interest at all or stays in my head compared to Heritage which has some pretty damned good moments.

Fair enough, I can see where you are coming from. To each his own!