Biggest DT-related disappointment

[Madman Shepherd]

This might better belong in the controversial thread, but DT's stage performance just isn't strong enough to be compared to Van Halen or others. Particularly JLB, as great a singer as he is, is not really much of a frontman.
So, realistically, the video screens were DT's best way of sprucing up the experience.

Although JLB might be not 'much of a frontman', I think he's taking his place really well in DT on stage. He's giving the music a lot of space (which is good in a band as theirs) and doesn't claim too much attention (I don't think you háve to as a singer). I actually like this humble way - he shows himself when his voice is really taking part in the music and not unnecessarily. And he's giving credit to the guys doing nice playz. So to me, exactly the frontman DT needs.

This is an excellent point. "Diamond Dave" really left a sour taste in my mouth from the last VH concert I saw on the ADKOT tour. He delayed the start of the show by a good hour because he needed a dance floor to be set up which he slid across maybe four times, and he "sang" probably 50% of each song. Most lyrics were spoken, not sung, and he put every drop of effort he had in twirling the mic stand, needless runs, and trying to be funny.
I'd take JLB over DLR any day after that show. James let everyone have their spotlight, and  (as generic as it sounds) gave his all no matter what. He didn't speak the lyrics in IT even if it was a tough for him to sing, he went for it. He chatted with the crowd, but he didn't pretend the whole tour was so people could hear him tell sex jokes. He may not have "star power", but he seems friendly and real, and without a trace of Axl Rose syndrome.

Dude, you summed up DLR so well it is uncanny.  I have that exact same view except I first saw him on the Sam & Dave tour and he did the same shit (without the dance floor or the mariachi outfit).  I was more of a Roth era fan but Sammy came on and blew DLR out of the fucking water.  It was no contest really.  I gained a lot of respect for Sammy that night. 

[rumborak]

I don't exactly know why you guys are solely focusing on DLR, other than that it's an easy target for counter-criticism. There's other strong frontmen out there, e.g. Bruce Dickinson or Freddie Mercury, both of whom were/are strong live singers and yet at the same time engaged the audience.
I understand it's not James' style and it's certainly not going to change for the rest of DT's lifetime, but there's a lot of headroom in terms of frontmanship, *without* sacrificing performance.

[bl5150]

.........and DLR has been a shadow of his former self since long before the Sam and Dave tour.  He was "the man" in the 70's and 80's but it's very hard/impossible to pull off the party rock schtick when you're around 60 yo.

[Zook]

My biggest disappointment would probably be them only playing an hour before Maiden in 2010.

Otherwise it would be every album after Octavarium except DT12. Of course I became a fan in 2006 so I didn't experience it first hand, but after hearing all their albums and then hearing what was to come, I couldn't help but be disappointed. Not to say they were all bad, but DT12 is the first album since 8VM that doesn't have a single bad song on it. ADTOE technically doesn't, but between the Images and Words similarities... Well that's basically it. It's a turn off. Then there's the horrendous Prophet's of War, and the other just OK songs on SC, and the 4 out of 6 on BCSL...

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

I don't exactly know why you guys are solely focusing on DLR, other than that it's an easy target for counter-criticism. There's other strong frontmen out there, e.g. Bruce Dickinson or Freddie Mercury, both of whom were/are strong live singers and yet at the same time engaged the audience.
I understand it's not James' style and it's certainly not going to change for the rest of DT's lifetime, but there's a lot of headroom in terms of frontmanship, *without* sacrificing performance.

The reason we're focusing solely on DLR is because he is the frontman to the only band you specifically mentioned in a post comparing frontmen. It also reminded me of how terrible of of a frontman he was when I saw him live, as it did Madman Sheperd. I know there are other great frontman, but I think DLR is a particularly bad example of one, in modern times at least.

What do you think constitutes a great frontman anyways? I think a great frontman does what he needs to in the band, and I think James is pretty close to what DT needs. What would you like JLB to do differently?

EDIT: I'm sure the band could be more active, or move more, but I'm sure having songs as complex as theirs doesn't make that as easy as it is for some bands. And I think you are right about the video helping improve their performance.

[Zook]

I think comparing any frontman to Bruce Dickinson is unfair anyway.

Also, I hate Davis Lee Roth.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I think comparing any frontman to Bruce Dickinson is unfair anyway.

This is true.

And I just don't think it fits not only JLB's but also DT's style to do constant energetic live performances. The music just doesn't always call for it and it's not within JLB's particular realm to outshine the rest of the band when clearly most of the audience reveres each member of the group on relatively equal terms. There are certain moments where he could benefit from being more engaged and involving, but they're few and far between.

[Rodni Demental]

Disappointments aye. It's obvious enough, but we set ourselves up for these things based on how we set our expectations. High expectations tends to result in high disappointment, and so naturally having zero expectations (although not the easiest Pov to have once you've developed your own preconceptions about anything) is more likely to result in being pleasantly surprised. I try not to bring too many expectations into music listening. But I'm still human and have preferences. I think some of my bigger disappointments were related to outside preconceptions that I'd heard about when I was digging backwards into their discog.

I won't go right into the story again but I basically I properly got into the band in 2009 where I started going backwards, rediscovering parts of SC and TOT that I'd heard bits of in the past. I remember finding I&W not very digestible, but I'd heard amazing things about it on the Internet. It was mostly because you don't get the full experience on your first listen, although your impressions of the first listen still determine how it grows on you. I knew there was something great going on here, but until there was familiarity, I just wasn't that into it. So I&W was quite a disappointment to me, considering it was actually one of the last albums I heard from the band (less Pull Me Under, which I had heard quite early).

I was also disappointed at the setlists not rotating this tour. Simply because the 1 time they came to my country, we got an amazing setlist, and then I looked at the Sydney set across the creek and it was a similar yet different set that was just as cool, if not better. And it generated a lot of excitement at the potential of what could be heard. And then following the shows online was a lot of fun. There's probably reasons why it's better the way it is now, but after being spoiled a bit it was disappointing for it to go static.

My biggest disappointment ever though, is that they haven't come back to New Zealand on subsequent tours since Black Clouds.

Anyway, to contrast what I've said. Things that pleasantly surprised me; the performance quality of Luna Park. I see a lot of people that are disappointed with the mix, which is a valid complaint I'm sure (although didn't come to my attention straight away, had it pointed out by the overwhelming consensus). Regardless, the mix wasn't anything special nor an issue for me, I just thought the entire band was on fire. Each member had stunning performances, James was killing, Mike was in the energy. Thought it was the best Live show they've released in their career. I don't know if I still think that but I really enjoyed LALP when it came out.

Was also pleasantly surprised at ADTOE/DT12. I pretty much started following the band just in time to be quite shocked at MPs departure. So I had no idea what to expect with DTs future at the time. So I didn't expect anything. And then ADTOE blew me away. I think someone already mentioned; DT seems to have almost come full circle because, long(er than the average) song arrangements with progressive metal influences, with catchy yet slightly unpredictable structures. That's a basic description I could summarise for WDADU/I&W and it seems their recent output can be comparable to those roots and is strongly representative of these ideas as much as ever, with out adding too many asterisked side notes to this generalised description; which would be required if we were to describe all of their output in a similar way. So I've been very pleasantly surprised at the direction they've taken (in that it feels true and is an honest reflection of what the band wants to do), and I have only excitement about what's to come. But hopefully not excitement with too many preconceptions or I'll set myself for disappoint.

[rumborak]

Dude. Tldr.

[KevShmev]

This might better belong in the controversial thread, but DT's stage performance just isn't strong enough to be compared to Van Halen or others. Particularly JLB, as great a singer as he is, is not really much of a frontman.
So, realistically, the video screens were DT's best way of sprucing up the experience.

True, but with all due respect, while the video stuff is cool at the time, I didn't feel much of the video they used that great or memorable.  The only thing I can remember from the shows I saw three plus months ago was the intro with all of the album covers and whatnot; that was neat.  But all of the stuff they used during or before songs, I don't remember any of it. 

[wolfking]

So what was the most disappointing DT-related event for you?

A Dramatic Turn of Events.

[Grizz]

Dude. Tldr.

I&W after going thru discography backwards from '09, static sets, no recent New Zealand shows. Pleasantly surprised @ ADToE, LaLP, DTXII.

This might better belong in the controversial thread, but DT's stage performance just isn't strong enough to be compared to Van Halen or others. Particularly JLB, as great a singer as he is, is not really much of a frontman.
So, realistically, the video screens were DT's best way of sprucing up the experience.

True, but with all due respect, while the video stuff is cool at the time, I didn't feel much of the video they used that great or memorable.  The only thing I can remember from the shows I saw three plus months ago was the intro with all of the album covers and whatnot; that was neat.  But all of the stuff they used during or before songs, I don't remember any of it.

All I remember is this weird bondage thing happening in The Shattered Fortress

[SeRoX]

Rudess joining to the band.

[adastra]

My second biggest dissapointment (At that moment it was biggest) was ADTOE.  I don't know why, but I don't like the album at all.   I haven't  listened to it since 2013 (except when watching Luna Park)  

At the moment my biggest dissappointment is DT12 . Illumination theory is pretty good song, but apart from that, I rarely listen to DT12.

:<

[Bolsters]

There's a few, but the only one I haven't seen mentioned so far: The Shattered Fortress.

The 12SS songs were at one point among my favourite tracks by the band. For a year or two stretch I've no doubt that both The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul would have been my most listened to DT tracks (I never had Last.fm back then unfortunately), and while The Root of All Evil was probably nowhere near the top, I still liked it well enough. Repentance was already a bit of a disappointment on its own, but knowing that The Shattered Fortress was going to be the epic closer of a suite which was 80-90% quality had me pretty hyped up for BC&SL.

What I ended up getting, I feel is a gigantic mess and an even gigantic-er wasted opportunity. What could have been an amazing song and an epic closing chapter to the entire suite, to me, feels like a half-hearted and poorly thrown together hodge-podge of ideas. It has some of the band's most cringe-worthy sections for me, it has some of their absolute worst transitions (that transition between the low-voice Repentance section and the Root of All Evil section...what the fuck is that?), and while it does have some originality, most of the parts that are taken from previous 12SS songs are played pretty much verbatim.

I wouldn't say it has no good ideas at all, there are some ideas and short sections in there that I do like, but they don't even begin to redeem the song at all. I don't go in for all the ranking and stuff that most DTFers do and I'll never even attempt to make a list of the band's songs, but if I did, I've no doubt that The Shattered Fortress would be a strong contender for the absolute bottom of that list.

[BlobVanDam]

There's a few, but the only one I haven't seen mentioned so far: The Shattered Fortress.

The 12SS songs were at one point among my favourite tracks by the band. For a year or two stretch I've no doubt that both The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul would have been my most listened to DT tracks (I never had Last.fm back then unfortunately), and while The Root of All Evil was probably nowhere near the top, I still liked it well enough. Repentance was already a bit of a disappointment on its own, but knowing that The Shattered Fortress was going to be the epic closer of a suite which was 80-90% quality had me pretty hyped up for BC&SL.

What I ended up getting, I feel is a gigantic mess and an even gigantic-er wasted opportunity. What could have been an amazing song and an epic closing chapter to the entire suite, to me, feels like a half-hearted and poorly thrown together hodge-podge of ideas. It has some of the band's most cringe-worthy sections for me, it has some of their absolute worst transitions (that transition between the low-voice Repentance section and the Root of All Evil section...what the fuck is that?), and while it does have some originality, most of the parts that are taken from previous 12SS songs are played pretty much verbatim.

I wouldn't say it has no good ideas at all, there are some ideas and short sections in there that I do like, but they don't even begin to redeem the song at all. I don't go in for all the ranking and stuff that most DTFers do and I'll never even attempt to make a list of the band's songs, but if I did, I've no doubt that The Shattered Fortress would be a strong contender for the absolute bottom of that list.

That Repentance > TROAE is a kicker. From what I recall, the transitions up to that point are fine, but that one is very forced, and where it really starts to feel like a medley to me. I like most of what they did with modifying old sections, but some of them as you said are almost just verbatim, with slightly different lyrics or arrangement.
It works a lot better in the context of the whole 12SS than you'd think listening to it individually, but I was really hoping for a unique epic conclusion to the suite, and it was a bit of a disappointment for me.

[Zook]

Not hearing the bad transition.

[Rodni Demental]

Dude. Tldr.

I&W after going thru discography backwards from '09, static sets, no recent New Zealand shows. Pleasantly surprised @ ADToE, LaLP, DTXII.

Lol, well done. I like to rambles.

[The Curious Orange]

OK, DT are still one of my favourite bands, and likely to be so for some years yet, but...

I've just been to see Pearl Jam for the first time, and they blew me away. PJ and DT may be very different musically, but they've got a lot in common - I got into both bands around 1992-ish, and they're both bands I'm still listening to today. They both operate "under the radar" of the music business, both have built their reputation on actively engaging with their dedicated fan communities, and by encouraging fans to see them multiple times on a tour by playing long shows and rotating setlists every night.

PJ manage to release a decent bootleg CD of every show they play. I get that DT don't have their resourses, but even if you compare the quality of official bootlegs that Marillion manage to put out (a band with even fewer resources) the Ytse Jam releases are pretty poor. There wasn't a CD release of any show since FII, and then the range just stopped. Shame.

I'm a huge fan of live albums. DT have released lots of them, but Budokan was the last one that was listenable. The Score CD sounds muddy (yet the DVD doesn't), Chaos In Motion has "clipping" issues, and LALP has that awful distortion on JLBs quiet bits.

Didn't the band say they would have to up their interaction with the fans following MP's departure? They didn't. Factor in the higher ticket prices and lack of setlist rotation, and being a DT fan these days feels less like being a member of a fan community and more like being a consumer of a product. Perhaps the most disappointing thing of all.

[nikatapi]

Didn't the band say they would have to up their interaction with the fans following MP's departure? They didn't. Factor in the higher ticket prices and lack of setlist rotation, and being a DT fan these days feels less like being a member of a fan community and more like being a consumer of a product. Perhaps the most disappointing thing of all.

Unfortunately i have the same feeling as well, and it begins from the music itself, it feels kind of forced and with no exploration-inspiration whatsoever, just doing the same old thing that keeps making money for the band.

I honestly feel like the band has lost their sense of adventure and artistic freedom, in the sense that the preconceived idea of the "DT sound" is confining them in all the aspects of songwriting.

[Mladen]

Probably the fact that the combo tour with Iron Maiden was happening only in USA. I would have killed to see a tour like that in Europe.

[Rodni Demental]

Er.. I would argue that DT are as artistically free as they have ever been with DT12. Especially after having 'something to prove' with ADTOE. It seems like DT12 was; anything goes. Is it possible that imposing the idea that you expect something 'unforced' might mean there's a preconception about the direction you would hope the band would move towards? DT12 was all written in studio, and is a result of the chemistry within the band at that time. It's completely possible DT imposed a framework on themselves with preconceptions about the sound they want to make, but if that sound is just the natural result of these guys jamming together, then it's not forced or contrived. Many of the passages have been said to be from single takes of an idea. That is surely artistic freedom.

[nikatapi]

Er.. I would argue that DT are as artistically free as they have ever been with DT12. Especially after having 'something to prove' with ADTOE. It seems like DT12 was; anything goes. Is it possible that imposing the idea that you expect something 'unforced' might mean there's a preconception about the direction you would hope the band would move towards? DT12 was all written in studio, and is a result of the chemistry within the band at that time. It's completely possible DT imposed a framework on themselves with preconceptions about the sound they want to make, but if that sound is just the natural result of these guys jamming together, then it's not forced or contrived. Many of the passages have been said to be from single takes of an idea. That is surely artistic freedom.

What i meant is that the preconceived idea that they seem to have (and has been stated in interviews) kind of limits the artistic expression of individual members, especially Jordan. He has told in interviews that he doesn't provide many of his ideas because they don't fit the "DT sound". But i think in the earlier years this "DT sound" concept was not as strict as it seems today, and especially in SDOIT where i think everybody was experimenting and trying different things.

ADTOE was a safe move for sure and it is understandable, but for some reason i felt that DT12 is lacking any kind of innovation and spark, it's just DT by the numbers. You could argue that the orchestral part in IT is something different, but it's not that different in the context of an epic. Maybe it's just a personal feeling, i'm not trying to present it as a fact, but DT12 probably feels the most forced album DT have ever made, especially on some parts like the ending of IT (let's use the usual epic ending) or parts of The Bigger Picture where i feel like the song was forced to have a more progressive edge. It leaves me with a very bland impression, just like it was a duty to do an album that has elements that will satisfy most fans.

[mirko_metal_88]

Portnoy leaving
BC&SL/ADTOE
Mangini snare sound

[RodrigoAltaf]

 Portnoy leaving.

[mirko_metal_88]

Probably the fact that the combo tour with Iron Maiden was happening only in USA. I would have killed to see a tour like that in Europe.

Well, a couple of years ago (2011 maybe) Maiden played together with DT (and twisted sister, hammerfall, uriah heep...) in Spain

[RodrigoAltaf]

Probably the fact that the combo tour with Iron Maiden was happening only in USA. I would have killed to see a tour like that in Europe.

Well, a couple of years ago (2011 maybe) Maiden played together with DT (and twisted sister, hammerfall, uriah heep...) in Spain

 Here´s what I saw on the very same day: Glenn Hughes, Saxon, Savatage, Manowar, Dream Theater, Megadeth and Slayer! That was the Monsters of Rock festival in São Paulo, back in 1999.

[OsMosis2259]

MP leaving was a huge letdown when I first heard it but then I was looking forward to the new era with Mangini so it was all good.

DT12 and Live at Luna Park have been let downs.

I think both releases were really hyped up. It's cool to see the band having fun and in a good state in their career but I felt the overall production in both releases were a disappointment.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

ADTOE was a safe move for sure and it is understandable, but for some reason i felt that DT12 is lacking any kind of innovation and spark, it's just DT by the numbers. You could argue that the orchestral part in IT is something different, but it's not that different in the context of an epic. Maybe it's just a personal feeling, i'm not trying to present it as a fact, but DT12 probably feels the most forced album DT have ever made, especially on some parts like the ending of IT (let's use the usual epic ending) or parts of The Bigger Picture where i feel like the song was forced to have a more progressive edge. It leaves me with a very bland impression, just like it was a duty to do an album that has elements that will satisfy most fans.

While it'd be great for DT to make another album that's a little more experimental for them, I'm not sure why everyone seems to think that if they don't, then they're not making anything worthwhile. Both albums are certainly "DT by the numbers", sure, but I feel that they have enough diversity in their catalog for it to not matter as much as it would for, say, an 80's arena rock band.

For what it's worth, ADTOE feels a lot more forced than DT12 does to my ears. They showed a lot of restraint instrumentally in the latter and instead focused on tighter song-writing and the overall flow to the album as a whole, which are only partly reasons of what makes it so successful.

In terms of writing in a way that would please most fans, I don't really see that either. If they did, there would have been a ton more "prog wankiness" and drawn-out song lengths for more instrumental passages. Ever since its release, it's gotten a pretty lukewarm reception from a decent chunk of the fanbase as well, so it's obviously not something that most of the fans would have wanted to hear.

[hefdaddy42]

The biggest shock was MP leaving.

But the biggest disappointment was easily FII.  I became a fan with I&W, and then when Awake came out, that level of awesome was maintained, if not exceeded.

Then came FII, and although it definitely has some great songs, it also has a lot of dreck.  Especially when the only thing you had to compare it with was the power & glory of I&W and Awake.  (I also had WDADU, but for me, that didn't count, because it was a "first album" and had a different singer.)

They have released albums since then that I now rank beneath FII, but none of them were as disappointing as FII was.  When SFAM was released, there was no happier DT fan in all the land than me.

[kirksnosehair]

Biggest?  I think I'm in the FII camp.  Another huge one was the DT concert I went to when they were supporting ADTOE (Orpheum Theater, Boston) was the loudest thing I have ever heard in my entire life and it definitely increased the damage to my already blunted hearing.  I swear to the flying spaghetti monster, whoever signed off on that sound check must have been deaf.

[metrojam]

Simple answer for me, it was both the songs and the mix/production on DT12 and the horrendous muddy "noise" that was the LALP DVD.

[ToT-147]

No bass solo since TDoE...   

[TAC]

Biggest?  I think I'm in the FII camp.  Another huge one was the DT concert I went to when they were supporting ADTOE (Orpheum Theater, Boston) was the loudest thing I have ever heard in my entire life and it definitely increased the damage to my already blunted hearing.  I swear to the flying spaghetti monster, whoever signed off on that sound check must have been deaf.

Obviously the same guy that signed off to Maiden at Great Woods in 2012.

[KevShmev]

And the DT show in KC back in April.

Seriously, how does anyone think that concerts at deafening levels sound good?