Author Topic: Best Harmonies  (Read 3491 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sacul

  • Spinettapilled
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 12115
  • Gender: Male
  • ¿De qué sirvió haber cruzado a nado la mar?
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2014, 09:36:45 PM »
You're not listening to enough prog metal then :p
Maybe Opeth and PT can top DT, but I don't consider them prog metal in the traditional way. Actually, I still have to find a metal band, besides the both mentioned, that does better harmonies than DT.

Offline Mosh

  • For I have dined on honeydew!
  • Posts: 3825
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2014, 11:56:51 PM »
They don't really do a lot of harmonies though. As far as vocals go, they really don't do anything in the harmony department, even JLB has said that before. And instrumentally they're much more into guitar/keyboard unisons than harmonies. Not that they never do them, but it's really rare, and it's pretty much a third apart every time. Dream Theater is much more about straightforward melodies with complicated rhythms and subtleties going on underneath.

Opeth do a lot more, and imo more interesting, harmonies. I haven't heard a lot of Pain of Salvation but they seem to do quite a bit from what I've heard, maybe the actual PoS fans on this board could correct me there. Even Symphony X did a lot more in the way of harmonies, both instrumentally and vocally, back when they had a more progressive/symphonic edge.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 12:17:20 AM by Mosh »
New Animal Soup scifi space opera for fans of Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Iron Maiden: Chariots of the Gods

https://animalsoup.bandcamp.com/album/chariots-of-the-gods

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

  • Heir Transparent
  • Posts: 7663
  • Gender: Male
  • Transcribing Existence Rivets
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2014, 12:11:59 AM »
Was listening to Circus Maximus today, they've got great harmonies.

Offline PixelDream

  • Posts: 2891
  • Gender: Male
  • Maestro
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2014, 06:54:24 AM »
The Divine Wings of Tragedy (the track by Symphony X) has a very beautiful opening full of vocal harmonies. I know it isn't an original composition, but it's beautifully executed.
Not 'Down To F***', but 'Dream Theater Forums' .

Offline Scorpion

  • Unreal Heir
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9908
  • Gender: Male
  • Ragnarök around the Clöck!
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2014, 07:36:10 AM »
The Divine Wings of Tragedy (the track by Symphony X) has a very beautiful opening full of vocal harmonies. I know it isn't an original composition, but it's beautifully executed.

This so much. I just need to hear that opening "On the edge of paradise" and I get chills.
scorpion is my favorite deathcore lobster
Hey, the length is fine :azn: Thanks!

Offline TempusVox

  • Descendant of Primus
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5503
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2014, 02:22:22 PM »
Hmmm... Another "Too Many To Choose" topic here, but here are some...

Eagles... of course
Doobie Brothers
ELO
Journey
Extreme
Foreigner
America

You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
"I came here to drink milk and kick ass; and I just finished my milk."

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2014, 02:24:49 PM »
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 02:33:25 PM by rumborak »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Outcrier

  • Posts: 3904
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2014, 02:48:03 PM »
Outcrier: Toughest cop on the force.

Offline Sacul

  • Spinettapilled
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 12115
  • Gender: Male
  • ¿De qué sirvió haber cruzado a nado la mar?
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2014, 02:58:41 PM »
harmonies


Actually, when studying piano, I never came to understand musical harmony because I never found it well-explained somewhere, neither on books nor my teachers could explain it accurately. And there are some redundancies that I can't comprehend, like, if every major scale has an equivalent minor scale, why do we have both and not one?

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13559
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2014, 03:27:37 PM »
Great line of remotes. I love my 350.

I always thought the Monkees harmonized well, especially considering to a lot of people, they aren't even a real band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_hlYgCNFZc

"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Online King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59297
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Mosh

  • For I have dined on honeydew!
  • Posts: 3825
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2014, 05:24:14 PM »
if every major scale has an equivalent minor scale, why do we have both and not one?
Because the minor scale evokes a different sound and emotional resonance. If you play the C scale starting on a different note, you're going to get a totally unique sound, depending on the note. It's the same notes, but it's not the same sound and thus, a different scale. It's not a redundancy in the slightest. These are called modes and I think music makes a lot more sense when you think of it modally. But of course it varies from person to person.
New Animal Soup scifi space opera for fans of Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Iron Maiden: Chariots of the Gods

https://animalsoup.bandcamp.com/album/chariots-of-the-gods

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2014, 06:14:22 PM »
Yiiikes, I hate those explanations.

Sacul is exactly correct, it is indeed a redundancy. There is only one Western scale (2-2-1-2-2-2-1 in terms of intervals), and whether you start where I just started (which makes for the major scale), or whether you start on the last "2" (which makes for the minor scale), or any other one, is arbitrary. They have different names for sure since they need to be identified somehow, but in the end the fact that we single out major and minor scale is simply historical happenstance. Music in the Middle Ages started on all kinds of other positions.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15237
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2014, 06:24:10 PM »
Galactic Cowboys (first 2 albums)

 :tup  my first thought

YUP...mine as well.    I have a particular fondness for About Mrs. Leslie.  Perfect balance of crunchy riffs and beautiful harmonies.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Mosh

  • For I have dined on honeydew!
  • Posts: 3825
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2014, 07:18:12 PM »
Yiiikes, I hate those explanations.

Sacul is exactly correct, it is indeed a redundancy. There is only one Western scale (2-2-1-2-2-2-1 in terms of intervals), and whether you start where I just started (which makes for the major scale), or whether you start on the last "2" (which makes for the minor scale), or any other one, is arbitrary. They have different names for sure since they need to be identified somehow, but in the end the fact that we single out major and minor scale is simply historical happenstance. Music in the Middle Ages started on all kinds of other positions.
It's less about the notes being used and more about what you hear. If you played a minor scale and it's relative major back to back to an untrained listener, they're not going to realize it's the same notes being used. It's going to sound like two completely different scales. It's not redundant or arbitrary at all. Identifying them as the same thing would make no sense.

In the end, the chords being played underneath is going to be more important than what scale you're playing anyway as far as as the tonality goes.
New Animal Soup scifi space opera for fans of Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Iron Maiden: Chariots of the Gods

https://animalsoup.bandcamp.com/album/chariots-of-the-gods

Offline LudwigVan

  • Posts: 4777
  • Gender: Male
  • Proglodyte
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2014, 03:35:21 PM »
Early Kansas harmonies with Robby Steinhardt and Steve Walsh.

Early Yes with Jon Anderson and Chris Squire.
"There is nothing more difficult than talking about music."
--Camille Saint-Saëns

“All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff.”
--Frank Zappa

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2014, 08:54:06 AM »
Yiiikes, I hate those explanations.

Sacul is exactly correct, it is indeed a redundancy. There is only one Western scale (2-2-1-2-2-2-1 in terms of intervals), and whether you start where I just started (which makes for the major scale), or whether you start on the last "2" (which makes for the minor scale), or any other one, is arbitrary. They have different names for sure since they need to be identified somehow, but in the end the fact that we single out major and minor scale is simply historical happenstance. Music in the Middle Ages started on all kinds of other positions.
It's less about the notes being used and more about what you hear. If you played a minor scale and it's relative major back to back to an untrained listener, they're not going to realize it's the same notes being used. It's going to sound like two completely different scales. It's not redundant or arbitrary at all. Identifying them as the same thing would make no sense.

In the end, the chords being played underneath is going to be more important than what scale you're playing anyway as far as as the tonality goes.

I think I framed my argument poorly. What I rather meant to say is, the fact that the most popular scales (major and minor) are essentially shifted version of each other, is reasonably irrelevant. It's little more than historical happenstance. And in fact, if you look at the next popular ones (harmonic minor, melodic minor), they are no longer shifted versions, but already have different intervals.
I just have this visceral response when it comes to modes, because there's hordes of guitarists who believe that they are integral to music and that your practicing time is best spent learning them. IMHO, it is not. Several modes (e.g. phrygian) are essentially just academically interesting, and the useful ones, I personally rather view them as a "minor scale with raised 6th", because that's what is the important part about it. The listener uses the familiar minor scale as a reference (because that what music is about, playing with the expectations and habits of the listener), and then hears a peculiar note in it.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline puppyonacid

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 943
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2014, 02:49:47 AM »
Surely that's the Dorian mode?

Modes are useful to learn as they do colour your playing. However, I've found that in contemporary music, songs that are essentially modal in terms of harmony seem to be written more naturally than "right I'm going to compose something in the Lydian mode now!"

They're useful when you're stuck. Say you come up with a nice generic sounding E minor riff but you want to spice it up - by understanding modes you can manipulate it and make it sound darker or brighter quite easily. You won't be just randomising the notes as you'll have an understanding of the intervals and how they work harmonically.

Altered scales like the harmonic minor are altered for a reason. In that particular scale the 7th is raised by a semitone in order to make the resolution between Chord V (which is now major instead of minor) and chord I much stronger.
This post was brought to you by Puppyonacid and subsequently ignored.

DTF's resident thread killer

Offline Lucien

  • James 5:1-5
  • Posts: 4618
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2014, 09:01:33 AM »
Can't wait for theory in college!
"Kind of a stupid game, isn't it?" - Calvin

Offline Mosh

  • For I have dined on honeydew!
  • Posts: 3825
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2014, 10:17:04 AM »
I think I framed my argument poorly. What I rather meant to say is, the fact that the most popular scales (major and minor) are essentially shifted version of each other, is reasonably irrelevant. It's little more than historical happenstance. And in fact, if you look at the next popular ones (harmonic minor, melodic minor), they are no longer shifted versions, but already have different intervals.
I just have this visceral response when it comes to modes, because there's hordes of guitarists who believe that they are integral to music and that your practicing time is best spent learning them. IMHO, it is not. Several modes (e.g. phrygian) are essentially just academically interesting, and the useful ones, I personally rather view them as a "minor scale with raised 6th", because that's what is the important part about it. The listener uses the familiar minor scale as a reference (because that what music is about, playing with the expectations and habits of the listener), and then hears a peculiar note in it.
I could agree with this actually. Like I said it really depends on what works for you. I got a better understanding on modes and minor scales in particular when I was taught that they're just shifted versions of major scales. This to me was much easier to understand than "flat the 3rd, 6th, 7th" or "sharp the 4th". It also helped me understand what the use of modes were in the first place and when it was appropriate to use them.

You're right that it's not intergral to spend so much time practicing them. I think learning the theory of the modes is important, as well as when you should use them, but beyond that, practicing all the modes is a bit of a waste of time. In the end you're really just practicing the same scale.

My point was that learning that those scales are shifted versions of each other helped me better understand them. Is it important when practicing music? No. Is it important for studying theory? I think so.
New Animal Soup scifi space opera for fans of Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Iron Maiden: Chariots of the Gods

https://animalsoup.bandcamp.com/album/chariots-of-the-gods

Offline Lucien

  • James 5:1-5
  • Posts: 4618
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2014, 08:42:48 PM »
(2-2-1-2-2-2-1 in terms of intervals)

This is nitpicky and really unnecessary, but those are not intervals, those are half steps. An interval is a placement on a scale relative to a tonic.
"Kind of a stupid game, isn't it?" - Calvin

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2014, 08:49:52 PM »
Err, no. An interval is the distance between any two notes (feel free to check any online resource on this). In my sequence it's the distance between two adjacent notes, specified in semitones.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline ronnibran

  • Posts: 747
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2014, 09:16:31 PM »
First to come to my mind is Shaw/Blades.  I have their first album (possibly their only album other than covers) and it seems pretty much built around the great harmonies.  I was a HUGE fan of the Damn Yankees, Styx, and Night Ranger back in the day, so I naturally ended up getting into this project.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2014, 09:28:50 PM »
First to come to my mind is Shaw/Blades.  I have their first album (possibly their only album other than covers) and it seems pretty much built around the great harmonies.  I was a HUGE fan of the Damn Yankees, Styx, and Night Ranger back in the day, so I naturally ended up getting into this project.

Nice to see someone else likes that CD here!  Definitely good stuff.  Not as rocking as Damn Yankees, but yeah, their harmonies were outstanding. :hat

Offline Lucien

  • James 5:1-5
  • Posts: 4618
  • Gender: Male
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2014, 09:47:07 PM »
Err, no. An interval is the distance between any two notes (feel free to check any online resource on this). In my sequence it's the distance between two adjacent notes, specified in semitones.

Well, semitones are also called half-steps, so
"Kind of a stupid game, isn't it?" - Calvin

Offline Captain Reddot

  • Posts: 45
Re: Best Harmonies
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2014, 03:17:38 AM »
Haken. Although in the studio it's all Ross, when they play live they all sing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65020NiNR8o
“I think it's really tragic when people get serious about stuff. It's such an absurdity to take anything really seriously ... I make an honest attempt not to take anything seriously: I worked that attitude out about the time I was eighteen, I mean, what does it all mean when you get right down to it, what's the story here? Being alive is so weird.”
― Frank Zappa