Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?

[Jaffa]

No, I wouldn't argue that they are equals, either.  That's sort of my point - I wouldn't argue about the objective quality of their performances, because I don't believe any such objective quality exists.  I might talk about why I prefer one over the other, but I wouldn't take it much further than that.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Equality could only exist where some form of measurement also existed, which several of us ardently dispute.

[jammindude]

I would never argue that there was a straight up, black and white "unit of measure"...  There's not.   But there are hazy outlines.   

Example.  Just getting an Oscar does not, in and of itself, mean you are "the best" or "better" than any other actor.   However, if you have won *several* Oscars, and are generally praised across the board for your consistently well crafted and executed performances, then several unquantifiable hazy outlines suddenly begin to form a clearer overall picture....and it is at that point that you can probably point to that particular actor as being "better" than the schlup on your block who is constantly getting turned down for every acting job he tries out for, because he simply has not succeeded in convincing a single person (out of possibly hundreds of people that judge it for a living) that he can act in any way, shape or form. 

[Jaffa]

What you're doing is compiling opinions and trying to create facts out of them.  Even if every single person on the planet shared an opinion, it would still be an opinion - never a fact. 

[ariich]

I think prog fans can be split into (at least) two groups:

A) Those who fall in love with prog so hard that they become snobby and consider every other kind of music inferior and "unintelligent" if there are no 20-minute songs and 100 time signature changes (close minded)

B) Those who discover other genres through prog by, say, introducing themselves to bands and artists their favorite musicians have been influenced by (open minded)

Although I still mostly listen to metal and prog, I belong to the latter group, as I've gotten into stuff like trip hop, synth pop, shoegazing, etc.

I both agree and disagree with this.   For "A", you can substitute prog with any other genre.

Definitely. The ironic thing is that you get people in category B who are just as snobby and criticise/mock the people in category A, or look down on prog fans in general.

[King Postwhore]

My music lovin' head hurts.

[hefdaddy42]

BUT OTOH if we go to either extreme of the acting spectrum, there's not a man alive who would say or argue with any sanity whatsoever that Tommy Wiseau is a "better" actor than Marlon Brando. 

That's why people who only argue from extreme POVs are, well, extremists, and are seen by most other people not equally extreme as being crazy.

The question is not whether your non-drummer son is as good a drummer as Neil Peart (no he's not) but whether Mike Mangini is as good a drummer as Neil Peart (both are among the best in the world, so which one is "better" comes down to opinion/personal preference).

Likewise, the question isn't whether Tommy Wiseau is a better actor than Marlon Brando (because Wiseau is a talentless non-acting hack), but whether Al Pacino is a better actor than Marlon Brando (again, opinion/personal preference).

[ariich]

EDIT2:  Just saw that your JamminSon has never actually played the drums.  In that case, I would concede that yes, Neil Peart is a better drummer than your son, in the same way that my desk is a better desk than I am.

Don't put yourself down, dude. You could be the best desk ever!

[jammindude]

EDIT2:  Just saw that your JamminSon has never actually played the drums.  In that case, I would concede that yes, Neil Peart is a better drummer than your son, in the same way that my desk is a better desk than I am.

Don't put yourself down, dude. You could be the best desk ever!

I agree.  I think he's just allowing his opinions about himself to effect his performance. 

[Jaffa]

 

[jammindude]

BUT OTOH if we go to either extreme of the acting spectrum, there's not a man alive who would say or argue with any sanity whatsoever that Tommy Wiseau is a "better" actor than Marlon Brando. 

That's why people who only argue from extreme POVs are, well, extremists, and are seen by most other people not equally extreme as being crazy.

The question is not whether your non-drummer son is as good a drummer as Neil Peart (no he's not) but whether Mike Mangini is as good a drummer as Neil Peart (both are among the best in the world, so which one is "better" comes down to opinion/personal preference).

Likewise, the question isn't whether Tommy Wiseau is a better actor than Marlon Brando (because Wiseau is a talentless non-acting hack), but whether Al Pacino is a better actor than Marlon Brando (again, opinion/personal preference).

But that's my point!  I agree with you!  But if we take the "subjective" approach that so many here seem to advocate...who are you to say that Wiseau is a talentless hack?  That's just your opinion, right?   Maybe his style is just different.  I mean, after all, The Room is now arguably more popular than some of Brando's lesser known films....so maybe Wiseau's a genius after all.

I personally think such a line of reasoning is laughable, but it seems that people actually advocate and follow that line of reasoning anyway.   I personally take that view as a lowering of standards...  ("What standards?" you may ask...  But again, it's not quantifiable.  But just because it cannot be quantified does not mean it does not exist at all...that is my point)

[Jaffa]

I just don't understand why it is necessary to establish those standards.  People either enjoy art or they don't - it's that simple.  Why complicate it by trying to be objective when there's no need? 

[jammindude]

I just don't understand why it is necessary to establish those standards.  People either enjoy art or they don't - it's that simple.  Why complicate it by trying to be objective when there's no need?

Because without them...I mean seriously...with *NO* standards whatsoever...we become that scene in Idiocracy.  The one where a movie called "Butt" (consisting of an hour and a half of a butt farting) wins the oscar for best picture.   I mean...who are you to say that Butt: The Movie doesn't deserve to be called a masterpiece of cinema?  Maybe it's just different and you don't get it. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Why would that matter? It's not like you're being forced to watch it.

[Jaffa]

To be honest, it's kind of baffling to me that anybody on a Dream Theater forum would try to hold awards as objective indicators of quality.  Is Beyonce objectively a better artist than Steven Wilson and Arjen Anthony Lucassen because she's won more awards than they have?  No, of course not. 

Awards are given based on the opinions of people who give out those awards.  If everybody on the Academy really enjoys a movie about a butt farting, then that movie deserves to win an Academy Award.  Whether or not that award means anything to you is up to you. 

[jammindude]

You're implying that I have a much more 'black and white' opinion of awards than I actually do.

Awards are mostly meaningless. 

I'm honestly not even sure I can quantify my own stance.     For instance....rankings on Rotten Tomatoes.    Mostly meaningless.   But they *can* be a general indicator of quality.   I am *more likely* to enjoy a highly rated movie than I am to enjoy a movie that scores a 9%.     I may have a personal enjoyment of something with a 30% ranking and a distaste for the subject matter of a 96% ranking...but just because there are exceptions to the rule does not mean that the entire process of ranking is "meaningless".    Even if I like a lower ranked movie and hate a higher ranked movie, I am still most likely going to have a level of respect for the higher ranked movie as a piece of art than I am for a lower ranked movie, which I may only like as "fluff" anyway. 

[Jaffa]

Right.  You're more likely to enjoy a movie that lots of other people have enjoyed than a movie that everybody else has hated.  But all of that is subjective and based on opinion.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't rank things - hell, this is DTF, where ranking things is what we do.  I'm just saying that those rankings are always going to be subjective, no matter how perfectly everybody agrees on them. 

[TioJorge]

I just realized that not only have we raped the OP, but have successfully shit all over that assumption while also slightly proving it...so basically we shit on it and then we cleaned it up a little bit but it still smells.

  This place. Is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

[jammindude]

Right.  You're more likely to enjoy a movie that lots of other people have enjoyed than a movie that everybody else has hated.  But all of that is subjective and based on opinion.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't rank things - hell, this is DTF, where ranking things is what we do.  I'm just saying that those rankings are always going to be subjective, no matter how perfectly everybody agrees on them.

Which means that it does *tend* to be an indicator.   

There is a line somewhere...but it cannot be pinpointed or defined...nor can it ever be.  But that doesn't mean it's not there.

Sortof like the line at the back of the batter's box by the third inning of a World Series game.    It's there...but it's not there. 

[Jaffa]

I don't think you're getting my point, jammin.  I'm not saying quality of art cannot be measured; I'm saying quality of art cannot be measured objectively.  You can measure it subjectively all you like.  It's just that your measurements will never add up to anything more than a bunch of opinions. 

For instance, I can say that Lady Gaga is an extremely popular artist.  This is an accurate assessment based on a collection of subjective opinions.  What I cannot say is that she is definitely a good artist; that's for each and every person to decide for themselves. 

[TioJorge]

 

It's all fucked, guys.

[King Postwhore]

I DID NOT SAY TOMATO, I SAID TOMATO.  CAN'T YOU SEE?!

[TioJorge]

I see the tomato...I...taste the tomato....



I AM THE TOMATO! /TheOneWhoKnocks

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think you're getting my point, jammin.  I'm not saying quality of art cannot be measured; I'm saying quality of art cannot be measured objectively.  You can measure it subjectively all you like.  It's just that your measurements will never add up to anything more than a bunch of opinions. 

For instance, I can say that Lady Gaga is an extremely popular artist.  This is an accurate assessment based on a collection of subjective opinions.  What I cannot say is that she is definitely a good artist; that's for each and every person to decide for themselves. 

Right. Something being more popular or highly regarded doesn't make it objectively good, it just makes it more likely that you'll also subjectively like it too. Popularity is only an objective measure of popularity, not of quality. Even if literally every single person on Earth loves something, it still doesn't make that opinion objective, just unanimous.

[kirksnosehair]

Take the movie THE ROOM, this is actually a great example.  I'm sure Tommy Wiseau still thinks this movie is a masterpiece.  However, the acting is terrible, the plot makes almost no sense and the characters are all over the place.  Tommy is able to love this movie, but this movie that he loves so much is a terrible film, quality wise.

This is bullshit.

The flying buffalo of truth agrees

[jammindude]

Take the movie THE ROOM, this is actually a great example.  I'm sure Tommy Wiseau still thinks this movie is a masterpiece.  However, the acting is terrible, the plot makes almost no sense and the characters are all over the place.  Tommy is able to love this movie, but this movie that he loves so much is a terrible film, quality wise.

This is bullshit.

The flying buffalo of truth agrees

I think he was just quoting the movie.

But even if he isn't, I disagree.    I mean, it's as if you guys are claiming that there are no such thing as bad acting or crummy actors. 

I mean seriously guys.   I'm sure you've seen this before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7pDNDuoJ0 - it's the famous video of that amateur band butchering Comfortably Numb.    If there's no such thing as good or bad, then this is just a re-interpretation.    To me, this is the musical version of The Room and The Room is the film version of this.   

I mean, these guys are capable of picking up their instruments and playing the actual notes...so you can't claim that they *can't* play...so therefore you must be judging as to whether or not they are good or bad.   

[Jaffa]

Of course I make judgments.  I'm not claiming otherwise.  I'm only acknowledging that the judgments I make are based on my own personal opinions, and nothing more. 

[jammindude]

It's not like i haphazardly go through life telling people they are wrong because they don't like something i like, or vice versa. But if you think The Room is the best film ever made, i will state the FACT that you are out of your mind.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

But it still wouldn't be a fact, even if you say it is.

[TioJorge]

 

TIME IS A CIRCLE. /thetruestdetective

[haceeb]

Yes, we're close minded.
I can't stand bullshit like Avenged Sevenfold, Metallica, One Direction or Justin Bieber.

Someone was calling Tommy Wiseau's The Room a terrible film, BTW it's cult classic and it has to be that way.

And David Lynch is one fucking amazing god of cinema, if you don't understand him, don't watch, we surreal lunatics adore him.

 

[jammindude]

See?  Perfect!  David Lynch I don't get.  That is my opinion.   I do not believe it to be a "fact" that Lynch makes bad films even if I don't care for them.  It is simply my opinion.    When it comes to things that I simply don't like...even with things that I can't understand how *anyone* could like it...then I tend to agree with Jaffa completely.   It is my opinion.  It is not fact.   

But somewhere... somewhere undefined...somewhere that no one could ever possibly pinpoint...a line gets crossed.   I don't even know where it is, but I know it exists.   

The Room, even though I enjoy it because I sometimes enjoy hilariously crappy films, is still crap.   Sorry, not my opinion, it is just a BAD film.  That is a fact.

[Jaffa]

So if someone genuinely enjoys The Room, their opinion machine is broken?

[FlyingBIZKIT]

So if someone genuinely enjoys The Room, their opinion machine is broken?

Apparently so

[TioJorge]

Opinions and facts...THEY'RE SO CONFUSING!