Author Topic: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?  (Read 24615 times)

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Offline npiazza91

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2014, 08:57:30 PM »
Abstract art is different than being a bad artist.  I can't make a bad drawing/painting and say it's abstract art.  They even joke about it in some comedies.

Here's another example.  Say I try and make a bench.  I know nothing about bench making, but a carpenter, who probably knows how to make one a lot better than I do, will make the better bench.  He is more skilled at making things, therefore his work will be of better quality.  Haven't you ever heard people say "oh he's the best doctor/lawyer/whatever?  They are good because the work they do is better than what other people do in the same field.  It's the same with musicians or writers or directors.  Some people make better things than others.  Sure, I might like the shitty bench, for whatever reason, but it's not as good of a bench than the one the carpenter made.  It's just how it is.  I understand what "subjective" means.  People are going to like different things, I get that, and there is nothing wrong with that.  The fact is, though, certain things are just better than others.  Now if you take different types of soda, such as Coke or Pepsi or Mountain Dew...they are of equal quality and this is where subjective is 100% on the subject.  However, store brand Dr Pepper is of lesser quality than regular Dr Pepper.  Some people might like store brand better (myself included) but it is the lesser of the two.

Is seems as if the first question you need to answer is: What is quality and how can it be measured?

Is quality simply a conformity to the norms of a group of people about how a certain product (music, soda, film, etc.) show be made and presented?

Also, you can't compare music across such a wide field in terms of raw quality. How can pop and prog be compared when they don't even usually share the same musical goals? And make no mistake, there is usually a lot of skill behind the hit pop songs (and many times the ones that aren't hits as well). It may not always be the name on the album that possesses that skill, it may not be the name that sells the concert tickets, but it is somewhere there nonetheless.

I like your approach to this.  I'm going to sleep right now, but I will definitely get back to you tomorrow on this.  This is fun.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2014, 09:30:58 PM »
"And we’re gonna play the new Madonna where she rips a fart,
And then stand around talking about why it’s art"
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2014, 10:15:05 PM »
"And we’re gonna play the new Madonna where she rips a fart,
And then stand around talking about why it’s art"
Kevin Gilbert  :heart
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2014, 10:21:51 PM »
OK, well for the film comparison, let's take that further. How do you define "good" acting? If there is some objective standard, why do people not agree on what constitutes good acting? And some film makers (David Lynch, I think) are revered for films where the plot makes no sense.

The thing it always comes down to is subjectivity.

Good acting is where the actor can clearly be convincing in becoming the person he is portrayed as.  I do know some people who cannot tell good acting from bad acting.  That is ok, but it is up to them to decide if they want to educate themselves on how to act or what good acting entails.

So basically, if anybody disagrees with you about whether or not an actor is convincing, they just don't understand acting as well as you do? 
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2014, 10:37:39 PM »
He does consider his intelligence above average.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2014, 10:45:26 PM »
Prog, to about 90%, is absolutely contrived horse shit. The most generic statement you could make about prog listeners is that they are likely to listen to contrived horse shit.

:lol

I don't think prog fans are any more open minded than other music fans. Of course many will be, but that goes for fans of any genre, including pop or whatever. And the idea kind of implies that not liking prog must be due to being close minded, rather than simply finding it to be crap. :lol

In my experience, prog fans aren't more open minded, just different minded. For every musical door they open up, they often seem to close up another.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2014, 10:51:55 PM »
can't we all just agree that all music fans are awful

Offline Sacul

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2014, 11:43:01 PM »
The thing about quality in music is that like other forms of art, it's about giving you an experience. Literature gives you an experience totally different than music can give you, for example. Each experience is totally unique, you can't describe it 100% and hope that the other understands the whole thing, especially the subtle nuances - he may understand, but can't relive it with full details. It has to do with everybody's own previous experiences. Why do some people cry of joy with The Spirit Carries On while others just think it's cheesy and boring? The first one might remember a deceased relative and that song may have helped him to overcome it's death, while the second might have never liked songs in that style.
What I'm trying to say is that we can't determine the quality of something in an absolute objective way, because that's impossible for us human beings. About that film, the acting may be awful and the plot confusing, but if somebody enjoyed it, he'd think that despite all the "flaws", it was all connected in a way that gave him a certain experience, and later when he thought about the quality of the movie (because we can't analyze an experience while we're having it!), he'd have thought it was awesome. And a critic will have a different experience. He may notice the flaws during the movie, self-interrupting the immersion, and think it has a low quality, because his experience was bad. To analyze an experience you need to use introspection, and that is obviously subjective. Even when you say something has all the elements to be "objectively better" than something else, you're focusing in one or a few viewpoints. And, then, viewpoints are subjective. As Shadow Ninja said, «The thing it always comes down to is subjectivity».

About the OP, I agree with what Blob said.
In my experience, prog fans aren't more open minded, just different minded. For every musical door they open up, they often seem to close up another.

Offline Zantera

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2014, 01:56:33 AM »
This is one of those questions when you can't say "it's A or B", because we music fans are all different. But from my own personal experience, I actually feel the opposite. So many narrow minded Prog-fans, if it isn't progressive, it's not interesting.

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2014, 02:20:57 AM »
I think prog fans can be split into (at least) two groups:

A) Those who fall in love with prog so hard that they become snobby and consider every other kind of music inferior and "unintelligent" if there are no 20-minute songs and 100 time signature changes (close minded)

B) Those who discover other genres through prog by, say, introducing themselves to bands and artists their favorite musicians have been influenced by (open minded)

Although I still mostly listen to metal and prog, I belong to the latter group, as I've gotten into stuff like trip hop, synth pop, shoegazing, etc.

Offline ariich

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2014, 02:51:56 AM »
Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?

You must be new to the forum.
:lol

And no, they're not, but they're not any less open minded either. People are people.

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2014, 02:58:59 AM »
I think it would be helpful if you clearly defined what you mean by open-mindedness. I suspect you are equating people with a broad taste in music as  being open minded, which I find as a flawed presumption, and frankly, arrogant.

To me, an open minded music fan would be someone who is willing to be exposed to any music...but that does not require them to enjoy it. As many others have pointed out, subjectivity plays into it way too much.

Conversely, what is a closed-minded music fan? I would answer, someone who refuses to try anything other than one genre? I've tried getting into hip-hop many times. Often when I've been told by someone, who's taste in music I admire, that "_______________ rap album is terrific." I've given it multiple listens and have been left unimpressed. Does that make me closed-minded or just that rap just isn't my thing?

I assume there are very open-minded people who've sincerely tried out a huge variety of music styles but still only truly enjoy one genre. Subjectivity is the key.

Besides, who's to say that having a broad taste in music is more desirable than having a narrow one? It would certainly be easier on the wallet.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2014, 03:00:10 AM »
Liking more types of music objectively makes you a better person.

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2014, 03:00:50 AM »
 :lol
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2014, 07:27:40 AM »
Whether it's prog you're listening to or not is irrelevant. It all depends on how you go about it.

Really, I feel like the more open-minded will listen to any form of music, or at least won't close themselves up to just one style of music.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2014, 09:01:31 AM »
can't we all just agree that all music fans are awful
I was awful before it was popular.

Offline Jaq

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2014, 09:51:22 AM »
ITT: the OP indirectly proves his point in his responses  :lol

I think you have to be open minded to get into prog, but people who champion it as a genre can be so closed minded (which, to be fair, is what happens with a lot of people who champion particular genres) that it amuses me.
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Offline npiazza91

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2014, 02:07:44 PM »
OK, well for the film comparison, let's take that further. How do you define "good" acting? If there is some objective standard, why do people not agree on what constitutes good acting? And some film makers (David Lynch, I think) are revered for films where the plot makes no sense.

The thing it always comes down to is subjectivity.

Good acting is where the actor can clearly be convincing in becoming the person he is portrayed as.  I do know some people who cannot tell good acting from bad acting.  That is ok, but it is up to them to decide if they want to educate themselves on how to act or what good acting entails.

So basically, if anybody disagrees with you about whether or not an actor is convincing, they just don't understand acting as well as you do?


Some people understand things better than others.  I don't know anything about Calculus, but I'd be interested to hear what a Calculus major could be able to teach me, I love learning new things.  It's not a disagreement when it's a true vs false.  Someone who can act (the is, pulling off a character convincingly) is a better actor than someone who can't.

Offline npiazza91

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2014, 02:10:43 PM »
I think prog fans can be split into (at least) two groups:

A) Those who fall in love with prog so hard that they become snobby and consider every other kind of music inferior and "unintelligent" if there are no 20-minute songs and 100 time signature changes (close minded)

B) Those who discover other genres through prog by, say, introducing themselves to bands and artists their favorite musicians have been influenced by (open minded)

Although I still mostly listen to metal and prog, I belong to the latter group, as I've gotten into stuff like trip hop, synth pop, shoegazing, etc.

I both agree and disagree with this.   For "A", you can substitute prog with any other genre.

Offline npiazza91

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2014, 02:15:08 PM »
Liking more types of music objectively makes you a better person.

I appreciated your responses before, but I do no appreciate this passive aggressive response.  We're all adults here having a discussion.  Let's keep it that way. 

That is not what I said.  I never said it makes you a better person.  Please copy and paste where I said it makes you a better person.  Like I said earlier, people like what they like, no genre makes someone intelligent.  I was just trying to have a discussion on open mindedness and prog music.  I'm enjoying this and want to keep it going.  I don't know what's so hard about having a discussion without feeling the need to insult someone.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2014, 02:17:41 PM »
Dude, that wasn't a serious response.

Offline npiazza91

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2014, 02:18:22 PM »
ITT: the OP indirectly proves his point in his responses  :lol

I think you have to be open minded to get into prog, but people who champion it as a genre can be so closed minded (which, to be fair, is what happens with a lot of people who champion particular genres) that it amuses me.

You actually hit the nail on the head.  I think you have to be open minded to GET INTO prog.  However, if you're open minded already before getting into prog, once you get into it and are saying it's "the best" and nothing is better, then you're...close minded?  Are we running into a paradox here folks?

Offline npiazza91

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2014, 02:24:06 PM »
Dude, that wasn't a serious response.

Ok, that's fine, but how was I supposed to know?  It felt passive aggressive to me and a bit uncalled for.  Since you can't tell affect on the internet, all I can go on is the words that are being typed.  Just a miscommunication, don't worry about it.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2014, 08:33:16 PM »
OK, well for the film comparison, let's take that further. How do you define "good" acting? If there is some objective standard, why do people not agree on what constitutes good acting? And some film makers (David Lynch, I think) are revered for films where the plot makes no sense.

The thing it always comes down to is subjectivity.

Good acting is where the actor can clearly be convincing in becoming the person he is portrayed as.  I do know some people who cannot tell good acting from bad acting.  That is ok, but it is up to them to decide if they want to educate themselves on how to act or what good acting entails.

So basically, if anybody disagrees with you about whether or not an actor is convincing, they just don't understand acting as well as you do?


Some people understand things better than others.  I don't know anything about Calculus, but I'd be interested to hear what a Calculus major could be able to teach me, I love learning new things.  It's not a disagreement when it's a true vs false.  Someone who can act (the is, pulling off a character convincingly) is a better actor than someone who can't.

But if I find an actor convincing, how can you say that the actor is objectively not convincing?  He convinced me, after all.  You could argue that I don't know much about acting, but I could just as easily argue that you know so much about acting that you've developed biased about which acting styles you like.  Regardless of those arguments, the fact is, he convinced one of us, but not the other.  How do we know who is objectively right?  Majority vote?   
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Offline TioJorge

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2014, 09:34:19 PM »
Jesus...are you seriously attempting to make an argument that acting is a measurable, objective facet? You are wrong. It's not.  :lol How about making an argument that cooking is an objective issue? Art? Sex? The argument you're attempting to make could be molded for anything...which is why, no offense meant by this at all...it's full of shit. Acting, much like anything in life, has suggestions, helpful advice, but the rest is up to the audience to simply 'like' or 'dislike' (or rather 'to be entertained' or to not). You cannot say that someone is 'acting wrong' as in 'these facts are false'. There are people that 'think' (an opinion) *Big name actor* is horrible, and a sect of people that think he/she is amazing. Now, you can rant all day about how said actor has encompassed this character perfectly...except...oopsie, that character is a creation of a writer, lest they're portraying a living person (and even then, it'd be extremely difficult for anyone to argue that a person portraying a once-living or living person has done it either 'right' or 'wrong' given that...well, they're not the person being portrayed. Now, if Jesse James rose from the grave and said "BRAD PITT YOU SUCK, THAT'S NOT HOW I WAS", you might have an argument...even then...maybe Jesse is lying cause he's a dick). At the end of the day the entire concept of acting has no measurable facts...there's nothing to be made into fact.

Also, why are you comparing calculus, the most measurable, set-in-stone, unarguable subject on the face of the planet, mathematics, to something that was created to kill boredom and has absolutely no laws? It seems to me that's actually an argument against your position.

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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2014, 10:05:54 PM »
Yeah. I think Nicolas Cage is a hilariously bad actor and can't take anything seriously that he appears in. But if others like him that's cool, and there's nothing wrong with their opinion.

Offline TioJorge

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2014, 10:12:50 PM »
Right. Everything about the subject is opinion. The very definition of acting is based around playing to the opinions and emotions of those the person is entertaining. There are no absolutes. The closest thing you'll get to trying to make acting into something that is 'right or wrong' is...nope, Chuck Testa.

For the record, I too think Nic Cage is horrendous, even in his best roles. That doesn't mean he's portraying the role 'wrong', it just means I don't like the way he's doing it. There's some people that will genuinely defend Cage to their dying breath, and even those insane people are not wrong.  :P

Hell, the very words 'good' and 'bad' denote opinion. Good acting to one is bad acting to another.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2014, 11:26:43 PM »
Personally, I like to argue both sides purely for the mental exercise.   But in actuality, I don't think it is ALL subjective nor do I think it is ALL objective. 

The problem is that while I agree that opinions vary greatly, and that the greatness of an art form is impossible to be quantified in any way that we can currently articulate....I also agree with the simple fact that, at some level, some things ARE just better than others. 

I mean, think of this.   If we take the "it's all opinion" argument to its *absolute* extreme, then my son is every bit as good a drummer as Neil Peart or Mike Portnoy.  (he's 21 and has absolutely no sense of rhythm and has never actually played the drums...but for all you know, he's simply a master of an avant guarde new drumming method based on "the think system")    You can't say he's not as good as those other two drummers...because it's all opinion.    See how dumb that sounds? 

As much as you guys say that art cannot be quantified....I argue even further that it is simply the line of objectivity that cannot actually be quantified. 
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Offline TioJorge

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2014, 12:13:38 AM »
Some things.

Music isn't properly relatable to acting because music can in fact be measured in certain forms...it can be a fact that your son isn't technically as good as Peart; disregarding all opinion. For example, one can logically argue that Peart keeps more consistent time, that he can hit more notes, play faster, play a wider variety, etc. There are numerous ways to measure playing 'ability'. Whether or not one likes that type of style more than your son's is irrelevant; based purely in a numerical format...Peart is 'more skilled', and it can be stated as fact with proof, without ever uttering an opinion. Choice of words is vital as well. What I'm getting at is that there are in fact facets of the activity that can be quantified and measured, even if you throw out all subjective view from the argument, the argument is still there on a purely technical basis. Hell, I'm sure almost everyone here has had or seen that discussion at one point or another: "Sure, Petrucci (or whoever) is more skilled than *so and so*, but it's not all about technicality". When you get down to the nitty gritty, it doesn't matter about the technical side...but it's still there, it is something that can be measured without opinion.

My main point and eventual question is, how do you even begin to measure something like acting? There are no notes to hit, times to keep... it's all incalculable. That's mainly what I'm getting at is that there are absolutely no laws to acting. The first words out of anyone's mouth about acting is going to be a judgement based in nothing but their like or dislike of that person's acting; it is in no way technical, measurable...nothing about it. Even with something as subjective as music, there is a line where you cannot argue anymore about whether, again, based outside of any opinions, someone is 'more skilled'/'has more ability' than another. People seem to have a hard time keeping opinion out of it and it eventually degrades into a 'like'/'dislike' argument...but it does exist as something completely objective.

I just don't see how you can even begin to argue the point of acting without going back to 'it's what I think' not 'it is factual'. I'm not arguing that art can't be quantified, I'm arguing that acting can't be quantified. There are a lot of gray areas in the world, but just like no one is ever going to make an argument that 2 + 2 does not equal 4, you'll never be able to make an argument that Brad Pitt is an objectively 'more skilled' actor than Chandler Riggs quite simply because there's nothing to compare that isn't an opinion.

and I just realized that it's way past my bedtime AND that I'm way off topic...good talk, even if it is pointless as hell  :lol My shits have run out...I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow though. Or not.

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2014, 12:13:59 AM »
I mean, think of this.   If we take the "it's all opinion" argument to its *absolute* extreme, then my son is every bit as good a drummer as Neil Peart or Mike Portnoy.  (he's 21 and has absolutely no sense of rhythm and has never actually played the drums...but for all you know, he's simply a master of an avant guarde new drumming method based on "the think system")    You can't say he's not as good as those other two drummers...because it's all opinion.    See how dumb that sounds? 

No, I don't think it sounds dumb at all.  Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy are more skilled than your son, in that they objectively and measurable have more skills than your son - as in, they can do things he cannot (presumably).  That does not necessarily make them better.  There's a difference between skill and quality.  One can be measured; the other cannot.

EDIT:  Basically, what Tio said, except I wouldn't discount certain objective facets of acting.  If an actor can speak multiple dialects, he is objectively more skilled than an actor who cannot.  If an actor can get through a long monologue without ever messing up, he is objectively more skilled than an actor who trips up and gets tongue-twisted every other line.  Again, though - these are indicators of skill, not objective quality of performance.

EDIT2:  Just saw that your JamminSon has never actually played the drums.  In that case, I would concede that yes, Neil Peart is a better drummer than your son, in the same way that my desk is a better desk than I am.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 12:25:04 AM by Jaffa »
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2014, 12:26:27 AM »
But even with acting...   No one (and I mean this with every fiber of my being) NO ONE can quantify where the line actually is. 

BUT OTOH if we go to either extreme of the acting spectrum, there's not a man alive who would say or argue with any sanity whatsoever that Tommy Wiseau is a "better" actor than Marlon Brando. 

Somewhere, there *is* a line, but no one can actually quantify where that line is.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2014, 12:34:15 AM »
BUT OTOH if we go to either extreme of the acting spectrum, there's not a man alive who would say or argue with any sanity whatsoever that Tommy Wiseau is a "better" actor than Marlon Brando. 

Agreed.  Because in my opinion, it's not sane to argue that any artist is better than any other artist.  Might as well argue about which color is prettiest. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2014, 12:37:53 AM »
The implication was that you *could* reasonably argue the reverse. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2014, 12:43:43 AM »
I know.  I was disagreeing with that implication and making one of my own: all such arguments are insane.
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people?
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2014, 12:49:11 AM »
I know.  I was disagreeing with that implication and making one of my own: all such arguments are insane.

To disagree is to imply that Tommy and Marlon are equals.    That...to me...is insane. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude