Great tour show - Really minor complaint

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

I actually think it would be really interesting to hear what MM hears during a DT show... In fact that would be a cool bonus thing to release to the fans "MM's Guide Tracks" for the current DT tour. It would interesting to hear how much of the song is in there along with the metronome, how much vocal cues are included and for that matter what the vocal cues do (count in different sections, remind him of tough sections coming up, actually count through entire odd-meter sections, etc...)

Maybe a lot of fans wouldn't even understand what that would be, but a small group of fans would really enjoy that, especially drummers, I'm sure. Just a random thought, 

That's a great idea. I'd definately pay good money for that. It would interesting, and for sure helpful to play along to. I'd especially love to have all the stems for the songs, but that's a whole different story.

[rumborak]

What I don't understand is, playing to a click track isn't an all or nothing thing. Take for example Finally Free; there is no reason why the click couldn't just stop at the end section, and the band simply listens to MM's playing. The video at that point is rather irrelevant, so no sync is needed.
As far as I've been able to discern, the only free section is MM's drum solo.

In principle, I tend to agree with you.  Especially since that song is all the way at the end of the set anyway.  It seems like it would be a simple thing to transition out of the structured click and go freeform.  But then again, while this seems like common sense, I also must admit that I have no clue about how the hardware and software they are using integrates with the entire audio/visual stage setup, and have no idea what it actually takes to operate such a system on the scale that it takes for their live show, so I concede that there may be very good reasons why it might not be practical, and that I am completely clueless about those reasons.

Nah, there's really no technological reason. A click track is technologically nothing else than a multi-track machine that you hit "Play" on to start the song. After that it just runs until the end of the song. So, if you don't want a click at the end, you do little more than select & cut in the program and delete the clicks at the end.
My best guess is, they simply didn't think people would care about this specific section to be free-form.

[bosk1]

Nah, there's really no technological reason. A click track is technologically nothing else than a multi-track machine that you hit "Play" on to start the song. After that it just runs until the end of the song. So, if you don't want a click at the end, you do little more than select & cut in the program and delete the clicks at the end.

Well, yes, in terms of a basic click.  But what I am saying is that they are using more than a basic click.  What we are referring to as the "click track" is integrated with the lighting, video, and sound hardware and software, along with who knows what else.  Neither you nor I have any clue about how that all works and fits together.  There could very well be aspects about it that we just aren't aware of, so I am not willing to be dogmatic about how "easy" it is to just shut it off at the end of a show, despite how simple it might seem to an outsider like me.  However...

My best guess is, they simply didn't think people would care about this specific section to be free-form.

You could be 100% correct.

[rumborak]

I'm pretty sure the drum solo is played to a click. It's been pretty much the same all tour, as evidenced by the fact that the multi-cam rig had some sync issues from being from different shows.

Been meaning to come back to this, but forgot.
Interestingly, the drum solo isn't to click, or at least not all of it. I actually did the experiment a while ago where I would line up two YouTube videos to be in sync. This works perfectly for all the songs (I.e. they never deviate), but doesn't work for the drum solo.
My best guess is, given how the drum solo goes straight into the rest of EM right after, MM might restart the click track somewhere in the middle of the solo. Would be interesting to identity actually; maybe when he also triggers the bell sounds?

EDIT: Yeah, I would guess somewhere around there. For the polyrhythmic stuff he's probably back on the click.

[Grizz]

Huh. Could also be Eric running the click.

I've always wondered how they went back on mistakes, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcYvKaY_0AM .

[rumborak]

https://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkpur3peFew4&start1=33&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcP4jio_Jnkk&start2=21&authorName=dtdoubled

[BlobVanDam]

I didn't know such a site existed. That's pretty cool.

[rumborak]

Hah, drum solo is totally free form apparently:

https://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkpur3peFew4&start1=396&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcP4jio_Jnkk&start2=382&authorName=dtdoubled

Mike adds another measure in one video, right before they go into EM.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

For me, anyway, the problem with the way they do it now isn't the lack of rotating set lists, but simply no room for derivation AT ALL.  No extended solo sections, no impromptu jams, nothing whatsoever to make any one show different from any other.

Yes, but that's why they're not fucking up as much (or at all really) as they used to. That AND now MP isn't there to play the songs 1.5 times faster than they were originally recorded - that's definitely helping the guys play as tight and as flawlessly as possible too.

[hefdaddy42]

They never really fucked up very much anyway, so I am not sure what that matters. Also, I agree that MP used to play too fast on occasion, but I don't think that would be a problem with MM.

[ariich]

Yeah they were hardly a band who made loads of mistakes. And even on the rare occasion they did mess up, that just adds some uniqueness to that particular show, and they always seemed to respond well with humour in those circumstances.

[As I Am]

Click sucks.

Nobody goes to a DT concert to see the lights and video performance. It´s all about the music and see those 5 super musicians play. And having a clip that trigger playback sections makes it feels canned. I hate that.

 

[?]

I think the videos give the show a nice extra dimension - watching them play for 3 hours with just a backdrop wouldn't be as exciting.

[Zydar]

When I saw them in February the videos were some of the highlights of the show. Great visuals that really complemented the performance of the band.

[Grizz]

I didn't even look at the videos this time.

[ReaPsTA]

It'd be redundant to have a drum solo at the end of Finally Free when they have one in Enigma Machine.

[BlobVanDam]

It'd be redundant to have a drum solo at the end of Finally Free when they have one in Enigma Machine.

It's not really a drum solo in the same sense though, it's more a section where the drums take a lead role in the arrangement. If it were two unaccompanied drum solos, I'd see the point, but I don't consider it a redundancy in this case.
And I'd rather them ditch the one in EM, if that mattered.

[King Postwhore]

This last Rush Tour, Neil split up his drum solo into 3 spots.  They were short, concise, and felt fresh so I don't have a problem with it at all.

[?]

I actually preferred MM's solo in EM to the song itself

[TAC]

I actually preferred MM's solo in EM to the song itself

Yeah, me too.
I actually prefer Raw Dog to Enigma Machine.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

I actually preferred MM's solo in EM to the song itself

Yeah, me too.
I actually prefer Raw Dog to Enigma Machine.

That's supposed to be in green text, right?

[TAC]

Nope. I'm serious. I like Raw Dog. I don't get the dislike for it.

[Setlist Scotty]

For me, anyway, the problem with the way they do it now isn't the lack of rotating set lists, but simply no room for derivation AT ALL.  No extended solo sections, no impromptu jams, nothing whatsoever to make any one show different from any other.

Yes, but that's why they're not fucking up as much (or at all really) as they used to. That AND now MP isn't there to play the songs 1.5 times faster than they were originally recorded - that's definitely helping the guys play as tight and as flawlessly as possible too.

Will you knock it off with unnecessary blaming MP for everything you find wrong? Good grief. Sure MP may have played the songs a little faster, but never anything enough to screw them up. And quite frankly, I think playing the songs at a slightly faster pace can do wonders for the liveliness of the show. Two examples that come to mind are Maiden's Live After Death and Rush's Grace Under Pressure Tour live albums, which happen to be two of my favorite live recordings. The songs have so much more energy in them because they are played at a slightly faster rate. The one sole exception I've found would be the live version of Disappear on L@B which was played too fast for a song dripping with that emotion - incidentally, JR was the one who set the pace for that song, not MP.

Playing them at the same exact pace as the studio recordings makes the songs come off uninspired and mechanical, which is the one thing that I noticed when I saw them on this last tour. Not to say that the show in itself wasn't great or that they didn't put on good performances, but there was something missing in terms of excitement, and I attribute it to them playing at the rate as on the album.

[KevShmev]

 

Playing the songs as they were written is unexciting?

[Setlist Scotty]

Nope. I'm serious. I like Raw Dog. I don't get the dislike for it.

Dangit Tim - how DARE you go against the grain!!!! Where's that controversial thread...?

[Setlist Scotty]

Playing the songs as they were written is unexciting?

In short, I'd say to some degree, yes. Playing the songs slightly faster gives them more energy than they had. Tell you what - go back and compare The Spirit of Radio from the Grace Under Pressure Tour video to the studio version and tell me the live version doesn't come off as more exciting? Or Revelations from the Live After Death video as compared to the studio version. If you agree, I attribute that not just to the live setting, but to the songs being performed slightly faster. Again, it's one reason why I'm certain those two live albums are my favorites in terms of energy.

[rumborak]

Playing the songs as they were written is unexciting?

Actually, yes. Some songs on LALP are downright plodding because they are played at CD speed. There is a reason why just about any band on this planet plays their songs faster live than what's on the album. It's the energy of the live setting that then gets reflected in the rendition of the song.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Scotty!

[Setlist Scotty]

Playing the songs as they were written is unexciting?

Actually, yes. Some songs on LALP are downright plodding because they are played at CD speed. There is a reason why just about any band on this planet plays their songs faster live than what's on the album. It's the energy of the live setting that then gets reflected in the rendition of the song.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Scotty!

Thank you rumbo! 

[KevShmev]

Okay, but DT usually already plays enough speedy songs and sections that speeding up even more stuff is not necessary for their shows to be exciting.  I am not saying I am opposed to them doing it...not at all.  I am just saying, given that their shows are already pretty high energy, I don't see the issue here.

Personally, I'd be fine with them ditching the extended solo sections in songs that are already long.  Trial of Tears from the this year is a good example.  The song is already over 13 minutes, with three solo sections (opening guitar solo, and then the guitar and keys solos in the middle), and making one of those solo sections five minutes longer was kind of a snoozer for me; I couldn't wait for them to end it so we could get to the meat of the song.  Granted, given the nature of that intro, with the floating keys and percussion stuff, it begs to be extended live, and I get why they do it, but I am just saying, as a fan, I don't find that stuff that interesting to watch live. 

[JiM-Xtreme]

Playing the songs as they were written is unexciting?

Actually, yes. Some songs on LALP are downright plodding because they are played at CD speed. There is a reason why just about any band on this planet plays their songs faster live than what's on the album. It's the energy of the live setting that then gets reflected in the rendition of the song.

The "Happy Holidays" release suffers quite a bit from this too.

[TAC]

I'm glad LALP was brought up here. I LOVE listening to Live Albums, but LALP is the one I have the most trouble with. It actually doesn't "sound" live.

[rumborak]

I don't think the Boston gig DVD will be any different. All songs were played to click there too.

[TAC]

I don't think the Boston gig DVD will be any different. All songs were played to click there too.

Well, the mix might help it a little. Who knows? You are probably right.

[TAC]

Nope. I'm serious. I like Raw Dog. I don't get the dislike for it.

Dangit Tim - how DARE you go against the grain!!!! Where's that controversial thread...?

Yeah, right. I think I said it all the time. How can Enigma Machine catch all this praise when Raw Dog catches the shit. It's like OMG they put an instrumental on an album. Really? If that's their idea of an instrumental, just write lyrics over it. It's not like EM sucks. I do enjoy it, but I thing Raw Dog gets a Raw Deal.

[Setlist Scotty]

Okay, but DT usually already plays enough speedy songs and sections that speeding up even more stuff is not necessary for their shows to be exciting.  I am not saying I am opposed to them doing it...not at all.  I am just saying, given that their shows are already pretty high energy, I don't see the issue here.

Playing songs that originally have a faster tempo is not the same thing as playing songs at a slightly faster speed than they were originally recorded. And yes there is an issue, or else you wouldn't see people making comments about the performances coming off sterile, even tho perfect, or comments about how some songs on LALP are plodding. Nobody is asking them to play the songs 1.5 times faster or even just as fast as they played Metropolis at the Boston show in 2003 (to allow enough time for an encore without going past curfew), but just slightly faster can make the difference.

BTW, I'm still curious as to your thoughts on the live performances vs. the studio originals of those two songs - what do you think?