Great tour show - Really minor complaint

[rumborak]

I can understand people wanting slightly faster version but ditching the backing tracks that give it the more full sound?  no thanks. 

And have to do it old school - like actually live?!?!? *shock* *horror*

Because .003478% of their sound ISN'T live, then the band is not considered "actually live?"

Actually, yeah.
Maybe it's the old fogeys around here, but we grew up with, and watched, all of our bands *live*, that is what you heard was what was being played.
And yes, let's put it acrimoniously, who can at this point tell for sure what's live anymore st a DT show and what isn't? There's videos where James holds the microphone into the audience, and yet you can hear him singing, because they decided to fill the chorus with overdubbed vocal lines. At the Boston gig they didn't even hear the orchestra because it was "easier for them that way". Call it what you will, but live it ain't.

[KevShmev]

Sure it is.  Just because you have a few things going on a backing track to fill out the sound doesn't mean what you are hearing isn't mostly live. 

I am curious though if they do a backing track that plays straight through, like U2 did with some of those 90s songs, or if they do what Rush does, which is trigger stuff on stage at various points in songs. It might sounds like semantics, but there is a difference.   

[BlobVanDam]

I can understand people wanting slightly faster version but ditching the backing tracks that give it the more full sound?  no thanks. 

And have to do it old school - like actually live?!?!? *shock* *horror*

Because .003478% of their sound ISN'T live, then the band is not considered "actually live?"

Actually, yeah.
Maybe it's the old fogeys around here, but we grew up with, and watched, all of our bands *live*, that is what you heard was what was being played.
And yes, let's put it acrimoniously, who can at this point tell for sure what's live anymore st a DT show and what isn't? There's videos where James holds the microphone into the audience, and yet you can hear him singing, because they decided to fill the chorus with overdubbed vocal lines. At the Boston gig they didn't even hear the orchestra because it was "easier for them that way". Call it what you will, but live it ain't.

It's always a minor distraction for me watching a show figuring out what's live and not live. When I know that it's 100% live, I can relax more and enjoy the musicianship fully, but when I know that what I'm hearing isn't all necessarily coming from the musicians on stage, then I'm constantly on the listen for what's real and what's not. Not that it's usually hard to tell, and I'm observant anyway, but it's a bit less honest to me (when it's vocals they could/should be doing live, at least), and for me that's not what a live show is about.

[Madman Shepherd]

Consider me dumbfounded.  For people to give that much credence to the idea that a small percentage of a vocal harmony that is prerecorded loses the live feel makes me lose hope in humanity. 

I mean, we're not talking about every chorus having every word prerecorded.  We are talking about 20-30% of the choruses having a line or two harmonized.  If thats not your thing, cool, I respect that.  But to say that it is not actually live? 

Can we just go back to talking about our hairstyle preferences for JLB because I feel that that discussion may have more legitimacy. 

[KevShmev]

Consider me dumbfounded.  For people to give that much credence to the idea that a small percentage of a vocal harmony that is prerecorded loses the live feel makes me lose hope in humanity. 

I mean, we're not talking about every chorus having every word prerecorded.  We are talking about 20-30% of the choruses having a line or two harmonized.  If thats not your thing, cool, I respect that.  But to say that it is not actually live? 

Can we just go back to talking about our hairstyle preferences for JLB because I feel that that discussion may have more legitimacy.

QFT.

[?]

Consider me dumbfounded.  For people to give that much credence to the idea that a small percentage of a vocal harmony that is prerecorded loses the live feel makes me lose hope in humanity. 

I mean, we're not talking about every chorus having every word prerecorded.  We are talking about 20-30% of the choruses having a line or two harmonized.  If thats not your thing, cool, I respect that.  But to say that it is not actually live? 

Can we just go back to talking about our hairstyle preferences for JLB because I feel that that discussion may have more legitimacy.

QFT.

[Rodni Demental]

I was excited when I started hearing backing tracks in the early version of ADTOE videos well before Luna Park was out, I just think it adds some colour to fill in parts of the entire spectrum of sound that you're hearing and ultimately enhance parts of a song. And whether it was performed at that moment, or earlier on and triggered as a tool to assist the presentation, I don't think it detracts from the experience unless focusing on these things is deliberately part of your experience. I get where you guys are coming from with 'authenticity' and even stretching that to 'honestly'. But DT have been doing this for so long, this is what they want to be doing now, they've done it old school for so long that they're probably quite excited about the prospect of expanding their performances and essentially opening up more freedom for what's actually possible for them as individuals and as a group during live shows. And that is them being true. Now they're playing more tightly than ever before and taken it to another level, so hell yeah? 

I can understand people wanting slightly faster version but ditching the backing tracks that give it the more full sound?  no thanks. 

And have to do it old school - like actually live?!?!? *shock* *horror*

Because .003478% of their sound ISN'T live, then the band is not considered "actually live?"

Actually, yeah.
Maybe it's the old fogeys around here, but we grew up with, and watched, all of our bands *live*, that is what you heard was what was being played.
And yes, let's put it acrimoniously, who can at this point tell for sure what's live anymore st a DT show and what isn't? There's videos where James holds the microphone into the audience, and yet you can hear him singing, because they decided to fill the chorus with overdubbed vocal lines. At the Boston gig they didn't even hear the orchestra because it was "easier for them that way". Call it what you will, but live it ain't.

It's always a minor distraction for me watching a show figuring out what's live and not live. When I know that it's 100% live, I can relax more and enjoy the musicianship fully, but when I know that what I'm hearing isn't all necessarily coming from the musicians on stage, then I'm constantly on the listen for what's real and what's not. Not that it's usually hard to tell, and I'm observant anyway, but it's a bit less honest to me (when it's vocals they could/should be doing live, at least), and for me that's not what a live show is about.

I might say it doesn't bother me and I'm happy about the way the shows are. But I still play that little game while watching Luna Park, and I'm listening for your singing JP. 

Anyway, when I think on it, one way to look at it; is that these features can add a lot to a live experience and is hardly gonna be the sole focus of ones attention at the time, but some of those techniques don't translate as well on a DVD where we expect everything to look perfect.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

For me, anyway, the problem with the way they do it now isn't the lack of rotating set lists, but simply no room for derivation AT ALL.  No extended solo sections, no impromptu jams, nothing whatsoever to make any one show different from any other.

Yes, but that's why they're not fucking up as much (or at all really) as they used to. That AND now MP isn't there to play the songs 1.5 times faster than they were originally recorded - that's definitely helping the guys play as tight and as flawlessly as possible too.

Will you knock it off with unnecessary blaming MP for everything you find wrong? Good grief.

First of fucking all, don't tell me what to do. I stated something that I noticed based on fact - Mike Portnoy did NOT play to a click track. FACT. Mike Portnoy used to (most of the time) play the songs at a tempo slightly faster (occasionally much faster) than originally written/recorded. FACT. Doing so, in turn, made some of the more difficult passages even MORE difficult for JR, JP, and JM to play, because of the increased speed in which they had to play them. FACT.

I stated those facts in such a way that did not disrespect Mike Portnoy or any one else for that matter. I blame MP for things that I find he was to blame for. He's a drummer, therefore he sets the tempo for the song, therefore if the song is being played too fast, or too slow, or just right, then he is to blame. Do NOT tell me to knock anything off. I was not bashing Mike Portnoy.

[mirko_metal_88]

MM could be a better drummer than MP, but not the right one for DT for sure.

Click sucks, people (and not only blind haters) always accused DT for being too "cold" in their music and on stage...well, now i'm really close to agree with those people, MP was the heart of the band, maybe the only "unpredictable" one, if you know what i mean...now i have the feeling of a pre-cooked show, something like a food in a microwave, no passion and same story night after night (and having the same setlist in this leg surely doesn't help to prove i'm wrong...)

i'm a bit disappointed with all this stuff, i LOVE DT12 (but to be honest i don't like that much drums on that record, and the drum sound is horrible) but i think that it could have been a better record with MP in the band, or at least a better tour for sure!

[rumborak]

I disagree on the statement that MP's drumming would have improved DT12. MP's drumming had become stale and predictable leading up to the split, I very much doubt that would have changed.

Fully agree though that the click track has pushed a band which has been accused of coldness (and even before the click track I somewhat agreed), pushed themselves a good chunk further into that direction.

[thedrumanimal]

..., or at least a better tour for sure!

It is great how opinions differ. I have seen DT on Saturday in Hamburg, this was my second concert of the tour. It was my 21th DT concert up to date (the first one being during the FII Tour), so I feel like I am able to see the progress in the concerts they have made during the years.

In the old days like on the FII tour we had lava lamps on the stage. During the Scenes Tour the band had TV screens for the "video show". On the SDoIT Tour there was one screen with pics on it (were there animated videos?!?) ...

A tour like this current one is simply another dimension, and this can only be done with a clicktrack which guides everybody (inclusive light techs) through the show. And for me it worked extremely well. A stunning show with incredibly well animated videos, the best light show they had. I even enjoyed the show twice even though the setlist remained unchanged. I was a big sucker for the changing setlists, but I must admit to myself that I prefer an evening-with-show this spectacular way over a DT show with support act and changing setlists. I mean this tour gives us 2.45 min of DT live with everything you could ask for, when it comes to a great show.

Today, the tempo of the songs always seemed to be “right”, whereas some of the songs seemed incredibly rushed with MP.

For me this is the best DT show I have ever seen (and I have seen every tour since FII). And MM is a huge part of the reasons, which I enjoyed the show that much.

[thedrumanimal]

I disagree on the statement that MP's drumming would have improved DT12. MP's drumming had become stale and predictable leading up to the split, I very much doubt that would have changed.

Fully agree though that the click track has pushed a band which has been accused of coldness (and even before the click track I somewhat agreed), pushed themselves a good chunk further into that direction.

I agree on the statement regarding MPs drumming, sometimes I could even airdrum to the parts while listening to them for the first time.

For me the disadvantage of the use of a click track is way outperformed (can you say that?) by the positive aspects which come with the clicktrack - e. g. the improved visual aspect of the current tour design.

[KevShmev]

I'll admit that my opinion on the set list staying the same all year might be a bit different if the set list weren't this great. 

If nothing else, the static set list takes the fun out of following the tour online, as it used to be fun to log on after every show to see what they played, cause you never knew what they might play, but for fans at the shows, I think we are getting it a bit better than we were the last few tours with Portnoy, for reasons I have stated before.

[Grizz]

A tour like this current one is simply another dimension, and this can only be done with a clicktrack which guides everybody (inclusive light techs) through the show.

This is false as I've pointed out before.

[BlobVanDam]

In the old days like on the FII tour we had lava lamps on the stage. During the Scenes Tour the band had TV screens for the "video show". On the SDoIT Tour there was one screen with pics on it (were there animated videos?!?) ...

I see you left out every single tour since where they have had full video. They had just as much in the video and lights without a click track, but it was more work for the crew to handle it all live rather than rely on the automation. Not to downplay the production of this tour though, as I think video-wise it is their most impressive all around from what I've seen, but that's not specifically due to click tracks. It does allow some tighter integration, but it's not a necessity, as they've proven on past tours.

For me some of the tempos aren't right with a click track, too plodding for the live setting, the difference now being that the tempo will be the exact same amount off at every single show with no chance of deviation. Some of the tempos were too fast with MP, but it of course varied, and it was still mostly not a problem, as it's mostly not a problem now.
But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me, like they were being held back by a click track when they were begging for that little bit more. The outro of TSCO was musical blue balls. And I know that every rendition of that song from now on will be exactly the same for me. As every other song will be. Great for consistency, but not particularly exciting imo. Those little deviations are what make a live version of a song to me.

[TAC]

If nothing else, the static set list takes the fun out of following the tour online, as it used to be fun to log on after every show to see what they played, cause you never knew what they might play, but for fans at the shows, I think we are getting it a bit better 

Yeah I agree. It's not uncommon to read that people are saying that this was the best they've seen them, and the last two shows I've seen are easily two of my favorites. But following the tour online, which was great fun, is now basically on existent.

But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me,

I was saying just that a bit back.

[mirko_metal_88]

In the old days like on the FII tour we had lava lamps on the stage. During the Scenes Tour the band had TV screens for the "video show". On the SDoIT Tour there was one screen with pics on it (were there animated videos?!?) ...

I see you left out every single tour since where they have had full video. They had just as much in the video and lights without a click track, but it was more work for the crew to handle it all live rather than rely on the automation. Not to downplay the production of this tour though, as I think video-wise it is their most impressive all around from what I've seen, but that's not specifically due to click tracks. It does allow some tighter integration, but it's not a necessity, as they've proven on past tours.

totally agree...Iron Maiden never used the click on stage and the show have always been full of pyros and light effects & cool stuff even back in the 80s where they used to speed up the songs as much as possible

[bosk1]

Maybe it's the old fogeys around here, but we grew up with, and watched, all of our bands *live*, that is what you heard was what was being played.

No, not really.  Bands back in the '80s used a plenty of techniques to add to their onstage sound, whether it be hidden offstage musicians of singers (technically still "live," but still not entirely genuine in terms of having all the sound you are hearing coming solely from the musicians you see onstage), prerecorded backing tracks or effects, playing to a metronome or click, or whatever.  That mostly did not bother me.  In fact, the converse bothered me more--for example, where a band only has one guitarist, and their albums would have layer upon layer upon layer of harmonized guitar parts that cannot be replicated live, and the result was a very thin, lackluster live performance.  And let's not forget that the members of Dream Theater themselves are "old fogeys" who were listening to and watching live music during that era.

Count me in the camp that has no problem with this.

But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me, like they were being held back by a click track when they were begging for that little bit more. 

Wait, why are we now assuming Luna Park was played to a click?  Am I forgetting something, or didn't they only just start using the click on the AFTR tour?

[hefdaddy42]

But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me, like they were being held back by a click track when they were begging for that little bit more. 

Wait, why are we now assuming Luna Park was played to a click?  Am I forgetting something, or didn't they only just start using the click on the AFTR tour?

That's what I thought to.

[GasparXR]

But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me, like they were being held back by a click track when they were begging for that little bit more. 

Wait, why are we now assuming Luna Park was played to a click?  Am I forgetting something, or didn't they only just start using the click on the AFTR tour?

That's what I thought to.

I'm pretty sure I was hearing of the click track during the ADTOE tour.

[rumborak]

You can line up LALP tracks with the album tracks with YouTube Doubler, and they never drift. So yeah, all tours with MM have been with click.

[TAC]

You can line up LALP tracks with the album tracks with YouTube Doubler, and they never drift. 

And it sounds like that. There's nothing about LALP that makes me think I'm listening to a Live album.

[Grizz]

Well the sound engineers seriously fucked up LaLP.

[Rodni Demental]

I thought it was fairly well known that they've been playing to a click since 2011 as demonstrated in the Happy Holidays release. (See Count of Tuscany). It seems that particular example still has room for deviation because the 'ambient' section is somewhat extended and possibly a bit more freeform.

Anyway, I just wanted to consider what it means for a performance to be 'cold'. Because it's a term I slightly disagree with, but I respect it's application to reflect some peoples experiences, but I also think it's an incomplete definition for this situation and almost cold to use the term in general. 

So, there's the thing where DT have had issues with casual music listeners that will say their music has so soul or something to that effect, and they just don't get it. They might describe it as 'cold'? Music sounds cold when you're not feeling it right? So it's obviously a subjective perspective. Because when you're into it, you can even follow irregular time changes that might come off jarring at first, and  with familiarity, turn it into something groovy. What becomes colder about the performance? I find it hard to believe it could be described as 'less natural' when it's bringing out the best in the musicians and tightening up the whole show. The musicians aren't rushed or pushed, they're playing comfortably and more often locked in and 'channeling' the songs more consistently than ever. And that's cold?

As previously said by others; bands have been using backingtracks, overdubs and even sometimes on the fly live pitch correction for as long as technology has been able to keep up with our demands and I'm talking when it was very much uncool and bands were more secretive about it. What about a solo musician than plays say; 4 instruments at once using delay effects, triggers and samples to essentially be creating enough sounds that it could sound like a band with multiple instrumentalists playing at once. That's impressive right? Is there a significant difference in the way this is perceived than if a full band was using similar techniques to enhance the listening experience?

 

I'll admit that my opinion on the set list staying the same all year might be a bit different if the set list weren't this great. 

If nothing else, the static set list takes the fun out of following the tour online, as it used to be fun to log on after every show to see what they played, cause you never knew what they might play, but for fans at the shows, I think we are getting it a bit better than we were the last few tours with Portnoy, for reasons I have stated before.

Also, I completely agree with this. It's not as exciting to follow online, but the overall experience of attending the shows seems to have generally improved for a lot of people.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

<snip>

I find it hard to believe it could be described as 'less natural' when it's bringing out the best in the musicians and tightening up the whole show. The musicians aren't rushed or pushed, they're playing comfortably and more often locked in and 'channeling' the songs more consistently than ever. And that's cold?

<snip>

I agree. I suppose I can understand how someone would come to that conclusion, but I disagree. I personally have the most fun playing to a click. It's so crisp and satisfying to lock in to the met and play. It always makes me happy, and I can't help but smile. I can, however, see how speeding up the click might make it more energetic or fitting for a live setting, but I don't have a problem with the click itself.

[BlobVanDam]

But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me, like they were being held back by a click track when they were begging for that little bit more. 

Wait, why are we now assuming Luna Park was played to a click?  Am I forgetting something, or didn't they only just start using the click on the AFTR tour?

It's not an assumption, interviews with MM have confirmed it since the start of the ADTOE tour. I thought this was common knowledge on DTF by now. And at the time LALP was released, I put the songs side and side, and there is literally zero deviation from the studio versions. I can't even tell the studio and live versions of OTBOA apart, aside from the vocals, which sounded much better live.

[GasparXR]

But some songs on LALP just failed to get to that live energy level at all for me, like they were being held back by a click track when they were begging for that little bit more. 

Wait, why are we now assuming Luna Park was played to a click?  Am I forgetting something, or didn't they only just start using the click on the AFTR tour?

It's not an assumption, interviews with MM have confirmed it since the start of the ADTOE tour. I thought this was common knowledge on DTF by now. And at the time LALP was released, I put the songs side and side, and there is literally zero deviation from the studio versions. I can't even tell the studio and live versions of OTBOA apart, aside from the vocals, which sounded much better live.

Aren't the intro and outro of Surrounded freeform on LALP?

[BlobVanDam]

Aren't the intro and outro of Surrounded freeform on LALP?

I think so. All of Surrounded sounds just dandy on LALP. There are a few other intros/outros that could benefit from doing the same imo, where it wouldn't mess up the sync for backing tracks etc later on.

[GasparXR]

Aren't the intro and outro of Surrounded freeform on LALP?

I think so. All of Surrounded sounds just dandy on LALP. There are a few other intros/outros that could benefit from doing the same imo, where it wouldn't mess up the sync for backing tracks etc later on.

I agree. Surrounded is probably one of my favourite parts of LALP.

[genome]

Nothing wrong with clicks + backing tracks for me. I'm struggling to think of many bands who don't use clicks nowadays, my band does it too. And I've seen plenty of amazing energetic sets from these bands. I think what Periphery do is raise the tempo of the songs a few bpm to give them more of a live energy. Perhaps that's something DT could do.

The ONLY point it was distracting for me during their 2014 was the verse backing vocals during The Mirror. They were far too high in the mix and it looked odd Petrucci singing with them. That's all, though.

[mikeyd23]

Count me into the group that has no issue with DT playing to a click live. It seems like it has tightened up the performances of the musicians and allowed every player (James as well) to convey their particular part comfortably and with confidence.  Obviously, DT were great players and performers live without the click, but with the click everything seems a bit tighter.

That being said, I agree that bumping the click up a few BPMs on certain songs wouldn't hurt to give them a little more of that live push. When my band plays out we do play to click with certain background parts looped and we do this for a couple songs. Actually now that I'm thinking about it, I cant remember the last time I played out with a band that didn't use click.  In my experiences it seems like its becoming the norm among bands in order to keep tempos right and keep everything as tight as possible.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, again, my only problem with them playing to a click/backing track is that there is no room for deviation from it.  You are chained to it.  Which means that there is nothing different from one show to the next.  There is nothing special about any one show, other than the fact that it may be the show YOU attend. 

[genome]

I think that's only a problem when you have a show like the current tour, where the whole set, video (and maybe lighting if it's midi controlled) is cued from it. In 2012 they had differing setlists so there was some variation.

[Madman Shepherd]

Well, again, my only problem with them playing to a click/backing track is that there is no room for deviation from it.  You are chained to it.  Which means that there is nothing different from one show to the next.  There is nothing special about any one show, other than the fact that it may be the show YOU attend.

Well that is sort of what I look for when DT tours....

[mikeyd23]

Well, again, my only problem with them playing to a click/backing track is that there is no room for deviation from it.  You are chained to it.  Which means that there is nothing different from one show to the next.  There is nothing special about any one show, other than the fact that it may be the show YOU attend.

I honestly think that has more to do with the lighting and video shows being tied so closely to the click track than the actual use of a click track itself.  The band still has the ability to do extended instrumentals as intros and outros very easily with the click by simply having MM turn it on or off and times.  Heck if they desired to, they could still easily throw in extended jams or improvised breaks in the middle of songs if they wanted to.  I've actually done that before with a programmed click track.  You basically program the click through the first part of the song and then have it stop where you think to might want to jam or extend the section, then you just program another click to follow the remaining part of the song that MM can punch back in at the end of the jam and boom! There you have it. Its basically just splitting the click track for a song into two parts, that's all. Now that I'm thinking about it, that's pretty much what they are doing with EM this tour by having the "jam" in the middle be a drum solo.

I kinda get the feeling the band doesn't have a huge interest in building in the extended jam times into the set anymore; since its still pretty easy to do with the click and they really haven't been doing it. Maybe since they didn't do much of that on this tour, they will work it into the next tour more.