If Derek was not fired...

[Cable]

I thought of this hypothetical situation after listening to Making of FII; Burning My Soul. As JP, MP and DS (DelFuvio)?were doing backing vox, I thought what if DS was in the band longer. Would he have started doing backing vox in concert? More vocal harmonies? It doesn't seem he has since done vocals in his projects, but I just liked the idea of 4 part harmonies.

Feel free to take this anywhere else (or no where)!

[BlobVanDam]

I think of the BMS backing vocals more like gang vocals, so I think his participation there was just to have a lot of voices. Both MP and JP also have easily identifiable background vocals in other songs on FII (eg. Hollow Years), which I don't believe is the case with DS. If he wanted to do backing vocals, I think he could/would have on the FII tour, so I don't think he ever would have started contributing vocally.

[goo-goo]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

[BlobVanDam]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

[mikeyd23]

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

Yeah this was my first thought; SFAM and SDOIT are my two favorite DT albums, so not firing DS would have clearly changed those albums and those are two albums I wouldn't want changed!!

[Cable]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

I have always felt that his overall sound is vastly superior to JR's patches/sounds. As DS has said he has a guitarist mentality, it shows on a fair amount of sections on FII.

Consequently, I feel DS would have had a better sound for TOT than JR. That's not to say the compositions and everything else would have been as solid.

[efx]

Yeah taking nothing away from JR at all, DS has always been my favorite keyboardist. SFAM is not one of my favorite albums but it would have been interesting to hear Dereks style on ToT.
However, in the long run I'm glad things panned out the way they did as I find Dereks stuff with Planet X more interesting from all angles than most DT stuff post FII.

[dparrott]

On SFAM, it sounds like the rest of the band were challenged to keep up with JR, where in the past, the other instruments were the lead and keys were supplementary.

[Madman Shepherd]

There would be less noodling, thats for sure.  As it stands, all of the good things about JR outweigh my gripes.  The noodling seems to be done when he has no one to put a leash on him.  Look at the End Credits section on DT12.  Its very subtle, tasteful, beautiful.  Who knows if he wanted to play that with five billion more notes or if JP told him to tone it down.  Either way, JR is invaluable when he is being roped in. 

DS gets a bum rap.  The dude was great in Dream Theater and I agree his patches are generally better than JR.  I think had he stayed, I probably would have liked DT just the same but who knows.  He is very underrated.  An easy target.  Most of the criticism against him is unfair, IMO. 

[Grizz]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

What was wrong with the FII live shows?

[hefdaddy42]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

What was wrong with the FII live shows?

They weren't good, or at least they weren't consistent.  Of course, not all of that had to do with DS, but frequently he dropped the ball.

[Bertielee]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

What was wrong with the FII live shows?

Well, apart from JP having a grunge look, MP sporting a cauliflower hairstyle, everybody cutting their hair and DS having a glass of Idunnowhat on his keyboard and a leopard shirt, nothing was wrong.

B.Lee

[rumborak]

What was wrong with the FII live shows?

They weren't good, or at least they weren't consistent.  Of course, not all of that had to do with DS, but frequently he dropped the ball.

There were the occasional flubs, yeah, but I don't know, these performances are pretty awesome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TllRd_MTX8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTduOgLle-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaDrSYvlmzs

He was clearly capable of playing the stuff, and I find his flubs are way overblown.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Listen to the 26 minute demo version of Metropolis Part 2 and I think you get a fair impression of what it would have sounded like with Derek still in the band.

[Scorpion]

If DS hadn't left, we'd be missing out on Planet X... which is inexcusable to even suggest that.

Seriously, though, I like FII a lot, but I like JR as well, and I think DS's solo output after leaving DT has been stellar.

[Madman Shepherd]

Listen to the 26 minute demo version of Metropolis Part 2 and I think you get a fair impression of what it would have sounded like with Derek still in the band.

Ehhhhhhhh....no.   I dont think that is indicative of anything.  That is such a rough rehearsal that Portnoy never intended on releasing it.  It was so rough that I doubt that song could be considered even 1/4 done at that point. 

[Grizz]

I could believe that it was the intended finished product if it was professionally recorded and lyrics were written.

[BlobVanDam]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

What was wrong with the FII live shows?

Just listen to OIALT. Derek was fumbling his way through the material, with a lot of mistakes and poor transitions, and wasn't using the right sounds much of the time. He only had maybe 5 sounds total that he used for everything. And with his stage setup and antics, they were very lost as a band. On top of that JLB was also sounding his weakest, which didn't help either.
Then compare that to JR's one-off show with DT from 1994, where he nailed the performance and sound setup, doing in a few days what Derek never managed in the band after several years in the band. Derek was easily their weakest keyboardist imo, in every regard, performance, sounds, composition.

Everything turned out for the best for both sides, so I wouldn't even want to think about it being any other way.

[Madman Shepherd]

The selection of the sound patches in the solos would have been more tasteful. And the solos would have been developed more than improvised.

A cheap Casio through a wah pedal is not very tasteful. And their live shows had suffered hugely with him. I adore FII, but they dropped him at the perfect time to release their 2 best albums directly after, with a far superior player and composer.

What was wrong with the FII live shows?

Just listen to OIALT. Derek was fumbling his way through the material, with a lot of mistakes and poor transitions, and wasn't using the right sounds much of the time. He only had maybe 5 sounds total that he used for everything. And with his stage setup and antics, they were very lost as a band. On top of that JLB was also sounding his weakest, which didn't help either.
Then compare that to JR's one-off show with DT from 1994, where he nailed the performance and sound setup, doing in a few days what Derek never managed in the band after several years in the band. Derek was easily their weakest keyboardist imo, in every regard, performance, sounds, composition.

Everything turned out for the best for both sides, so I wouldn't even want to think about it being any other way.

Jordan didn't really "nail" everything in that one off show.  His performance was excellent sure, but he did change a few things significantly. 

I do agree that everything turned out best for both sides

[adastra]

IMO  Derek's playing has more "feeling"!

[Sycsa]

Derek was easily their weakest keyboardist imo, in every regard, performance, sounds, composition.

I disagree on Derek having inferior sounds. Even if we exclude Planet X and Derek's solo stuff (all of which are chock-full of great keyboard sounds) and talk only in the context of his DT tenure, his sounds were still of high quality.

Firstly, his organ sound was so good that after 15 years of technological advancement, Jordan still can't quite match it. OIALT was weak in the performance department indeed, but Derek's organ work added such a nice extra texture to it that I still listen to it just for that reason (the Metropolis solo section is the best example that I can think of, I miss that Hammond sound on every other version since I first heard it). I've been a frustrated keyboardist at one time, I know all too well that getting an authentic and satisfying Hammond sound is one of the most difficult, expensive and rare feats among keyboard players. Derek had a Korg CX-3 Hammond clone and hauled a Leslie speaker around for all the live shows, which made a world of difference. Jordan, at the time, had some of the worst keyboard sounds I've ever heard. The "cheap Casio sound" isn't always a problem, Kevin tastefully made some of the cheapest keyboard sounds work excellently, but Jordan's sounds on LTE were so cheap (the organ is like a toy keyboard) and - more importantly - tasteless at the same time that I'm often compelled to skip songs because I just can't stand them (I have the same problem with some of his solo albums as well).

Going back to Derek and FII, his ambient sounds were also great (that mighty Mellotron in Peruvian Skies), his retro synth sound at the beginning of LITS was a nice and unique touch and his Trial of Tears lead with all the filters and effects was more expressive than the majority of Jordan's lead sounds, so I'd definitely wouldn't write it off as a "cheap Casio through a wah."

In the end, these two quotes wrap it all up nicely:

If DS hadn't left, we'd be missing out on Planet X... which is inexcusable to even suggest that.

Seriously, though, I like FII a lot, but I like JR as well, and I think DS's solo output after leaving DT has been stellar.

Everything turned out for the best for both sides, so I wouldn't even want to think about it being any other way.

[BlobVanDam]

OIALT was weak in the performance department indeed, but Derek's organ work added such a nice extra texture to it that I still listen to it just for that reason (the Metropolis solo section is the best example that I can think of, I miss that Hammond sound on every other version since I first heard it).

That is specifically what I had in mind for his lack of sounds ruining their live performances. I can't even listen to that version of Metropolis. The organ doesn't fit, and it sounds awful, so distorted and grating, and uses it for half the song. And then the icing on the cake is his obnoxious wah lead ruining the unison too, and he can't even play it well to begin with.

Derek was a very limited player with a narrow range, who seemed to think he was in a classic rock band, not a prog rock/metal band. Luckily for him, that worked specifically for FII (which I love), but for all of their other material, he couldn't do it justice.

[MoraWintersoul]

Derek was a very limited player with a narrow range, who seemed to think he was in a classic rock band, not a prog rock/metal band. Luckily for him, that worked specifically for FII (which I love), but for all of their other material, he couldn't do it justice.

Okay, so why'd they hire him then?

[BlobVanDam]

Derek was a very limited player with a narrow range, who seemed to think he was in a classic rock band, not a prog rock/metal band. Luckily for him, that worked specifically for FII (which I love), but for all of their other material, he couldn't do it justice.

Okay, so why'd they hire him then?

Because they couldn't get Jordan.

[MoraWintersoul]

Yeah, but Derek wasn't the only other keyboardist in the world at the time

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, but Derek wasn't the only other keyboardist in the world at the time

What?! Since when??

It wasn't as easy in 1994 as it is now to scout talent from all over the world, and it's also a matter of who was available and willing to join the band at the time. Derek was a touring musician, so they knew he had the experience.
Obviously Jordan as their first choice wasn't available, and keeping in mind that Derek was initially considered a hired gun, it's possible they were still expecting to find someone better, then formed a good relationship with him. But even after making him a full time member, they fired him the instant they were able to get Jordan, which kind of says it all for me.

[MoraWintersoul]

It says everything about how much they wanted Jordan, and not anything about Derek. It wasn't easy to scout talent back then, but trust the guys who took almost two years to find a new singer, and imported the new singer all the way from Canada, to not settle for just about anything

[Grizz]

Yeah, they auditioned several people, like that one guy that died. They didn't just hire anyone after Steve Stone.

[KevShmev]

I disagree that he was not a good fit for the band, and calling him a limited player just seems silly.  Sure, Moore and Rudess were/are better fits, but Sherinian's style fitted them well at the time.  The fact that he was not their first choice after Moore's departure is largely irrelevant.  The intro to Lines in the Sand, which Sherinian wrote IIRC, is still one of the most bad ass things in the history of the band.

[Sycsa]

Yeah, they auditioned several people, like that one guy that died.

Right at the audition?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

The songs were too intense.

[Grizz]

Yeah, they auditioned several people, like that one guy that died.

Right at the audition?

[TL]

It says everything about how much they wanted Jordan, and not anything about Derek. It wasn't easy to scout talent back then, but trust the guys who took almost two years to find a new singer, and imported the new singer all the way from Canada, to not settle for just about anything

I mean, southern Ontario to New York. Let's not get carried away here. 

[Dublagent66]

Hey, I liked Derek's playing even though he acted like a clown sometimes.  So what?  He was only supposed to be in the band for a limited amount of time anyway because when they brought him onboard, they already knew they wanted JR.  It was just a matter of time.  I don't think FII would've been nearly as good of an album without DS.  I saw them on the FII tour and it was great.  Who cares how they looked.

[Rodni Demental]

I think it's a bit unfair to say the band were completely lost with him. They were just rollin' with it and having fun which is something DS probably helped them to relax and enjoy themselves more on stage.

The first Uncovered disk features some of Derek's best work with the band IMO. The funeral for a friend medley, perfect strangers and carry on my wayward son were from ACOS Ep too but there's some tight keyboard/organs in those songs.

Anyway, Uncovered 2003-2005. Fairly sure those songs are Jordan (God help me it'd make sense if some of them were Derek lol). Anyway, there's pretty amazing organ work in stuff like Heart of the Sunrise and I do believe there's some especially impressive 'hammond' style playing in Since I've been loving You. I'll admit some of JRs sounds have sounded a bit tinny to me on SFAM and LTE in the past, but what really gets me is his creative application of these unique sounds and still manages to make it enjoyable to listen to in the way he uses and expresses said weird sounds. But this 'Uncovered' CD has some amazing styles that you don't normally hear from Jordan.

DS' organwork was pretty good though and he did very well on a lot of the Floyd covers, I thought some of the keyboard textures even sounded more coloured and full than the originals with R. Wright. Also, Lines in the Sand speaks for itself about pushing potentially cheap hardware to it's fullest and making the most of the expressive qualities available resulting in something truly epic.

JRs my favourite player but DS is still a great player that deserves credit but I do think he would have been better suited for a classic rock band Also JR seems to fit more personality wise into the band, which may not seem to directly relate to the music, but it relates to the 'musical chemistry' that occurs when they're composing and recording.