Poll

Are buying the HD versions of DT albums worth it to you?

You would be an idiot not to.
Yes, when I can afford them.
No, obtaining the hardware necessary for enjoyment is too much of a hassle.
No, I can't tell the difference.
HD tracks?  Humph!  Man give me vinyl.

Author Topic: DT HD Tracks, worth it?  (Read 16715 times)

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Offline nikatapi

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2015, 01:00:02 AM »
It's so unfortunate that the regular CD is so compressed. I don't think they would ever have released such an album if MP was still in the band.

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2015, 05:28:50 AM »
I just wish DT would do what Dan Swanö did with the latest Nightingale and Witherscape albums: include a more dynamic mix as an enhancement on the limited edition to give an alternative for those who want better-quality audio AND a physical product.

Offline rumborak

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2015, 06:38:28 AM »
It's so unfortunate that the regular CD is so compressed. I don't think they would ever have released such an album if MP was still in the band.

SC wasn't too far away from that compression level.

To me, the very fact that the HDTracks exist as a separate product that was released after the CD, really rubs me the wrong way. It really says "if you care about sound, pay twice the money". Had they made the HDTracks available as part of a package right from the getgo, with a slight surcharge, that would have been fine. But this way, they made everyone buy the CD first, and then had their core base, the ones who give a shit about sound, shell out again.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 06:44:33 AM by rumborak »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2015, 06:51:53 AM »
It's so unfortunate that the regular CD is so compressed. I don't think they would ever have released such an album if MP was still in the band.

SC wasn't too far away from that compression level.

Most of their 2000s albums aren't too far from that compression level really. SC is a bit more noticeable because it's compressed more in the bass frequencies, and the bass drum clips a bit (especially TDEN). I think the high end is slightly more dynamic than others, like BCASL. It's a bit of a weird one for mastering.

DT12 isn't too much more compressed, but when they're that close to the edge, that tiny bit makes a big difference to how listenable it is. Judging from the HDTracks version, I think the mix itself is pretty amped too. I don't have the HDTracks of the earlier RR albums for comparison, but I expect their mixes were a bit more dynamic to begin with.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2015, 12:05:33 PM »
I think DT12's mix was compressed as well.  Even though the HD Tracks files are dynamic there still seems to be something off with it.  I bought Muse's "The 2nd Law" from HD Tracks and that version is awesome.  It was a good example to me of how clear and dynamic a modern record could sound.(It actually could have had a little more dynamic range but I am not complaining) 

I think this is the reason why many people have a harder time hearing the difference on DT12.   

Offline Grizz

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #75 on: January 20, 2015, 12:19:05 PM »
The problem here is HD Tracks should be cheaper than the physical CD.  It didn't go through a mastering process and the distribution/manufacturing costs are infinitely cheaper.
But... but... they slapped big numbers on the virtual label and catered to a market known for people that buy gold plated digital cables and think it helps sound quality!
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Calvin6s

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2015, 01:21:39 PM »
Systematic Chaos says hi.

Well, it said hello.  It just got compressed to hi.

Offline nikatapi

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2015, 03:04:31 AM »
Systematic Chaos says hi.

Well, it said hello.  It just got compressed to hi.

 :lol :lol :lol

Anyway, i think the problem with DT's sound is not only the mastering, since it seems that the individual tracks are compressed as well, so the mix is no so dynamic anyway.
But in my honest opinion, the CD version should have the dynamic mastering, it's no excuse to sell the better sounding version digitally only and even more expensive than the standard version. Fuck it.

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2015, 04:26:41 AM »
I suspect more than a few of us here might not buy the next CD immediately next time around
I am definitely not buying the CD straight away, after the appalling experience with the sound of DT12 and subsequent HD tracks release. I will wait it out and then make a judgement. If reviews of the album's sound are good, I'll probably go and get it. If not, and reviews of the HD tracks are far more positive, I'll get those and then maybe buy a used copy of the CD much later on for the completionist in me.

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Calvin6s

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2015, 05:38:55 AM »
I am definitely not buying the CD straight away, after the appalling experience with the sound of DT12 and subsequent HD tracks release.
HD Tracks could do something that makes everybody happy.

If you preorder the new album coming out with HD Tracks, you can buy all the rest of the Dream Theater albums they have for $9.99 each with the same purchase.  I bet many hardcore DT fans would take them up on that.

Offline Zydar

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2015, 05:41:58 AM »
I suspect more than a few of us here might not buy the next CD immediately next time around
I am definitely not buying the CD straight away, after the appalling experience with the sound of DT12 and subsequent HD tracks release. I will wait it out and then make a judgement. If reviews of the album's sound are good, I'll probably go and get it. If not, and reviews of the HD tracks are far more positive, I'll get those and then maybe buy a used copy of the CD much later on for the completionist in me.

Same here.
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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2015, 06:05:26 AM »
So what about this ?

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2015, 06:11:09 AM »
So what about this ?
Can someone give me a tl/dr version?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2015, 06:32:47 AM »
So what about this ?
Can someone give me a tl/dr version?

It says: old pricks with dodgy ears from decades of way-too-loud-music can't hear shit. Buying, expensive, huge, music files in a format that only a few music players can run is a stupid waste of money.

Happy?
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2015, 06:47:44 AM »
So what about this ?

The better sound quality of the HDTracks version was entirely due to being a different master (all the benefits of which would still exist at CD quality), not due to the marketing gimmick of "HD", if that's what you mean.

The audio frequencies on the HD version of DT12 completely roll off by about 28-30Khz anyway, so while you're gaining a little bit extra over the CD's 22.1Khz bandwidth, it's nothing ridiculous or excessive. I just did a quick test by deleting everything below 22.1Khz, leaving effectively only what you'd gain from the HDTracks version, and while there is sound there, it's obviously nothing audible to human ears.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Calvin6s

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2015, 06:54:52 AM »
Actually, it talked about the fact that the fact that as the frequencies go into the extreme highs and lows (mostly highs), it takes more db to be recognizable.  And sense a certain threshold hold of db = pain, hearing above 20kHz isn't very enjoyable to begin with.

Intermodulation distortion in the dog ear range can affect the human ear range, so 192/24 could actually be worse.  A way to solve that is to have an ultra-tweeter, but why?

Nyquist frequency = 192kHz / 2 = 96kHz and you only need a small pad over 20khz, so what's the point?

24 bit is used during the actual instrument recording process to give headroom to avoid digital distortion.  It is there for recording, not playback.

But I don't really pay attention to this stuff enough to feel confident in my summation.  I mostly use my ears.

So once again, 192/24 is bigger in file size, but not only is it not necessarily better, it can actually be worse.  (Article's words, not mine.)

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2015, 06:57:11 AM »
So what about this ?
Can someone give me a tl/dr version?

It says: old pricks with dodgy ears from decades of way-too-loud-music can't hear shit. Buying, expensive, huge, music files in a format that only a few music players can run is a stupid waste of money.

Happy?

Yes, thank you.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2015, 07:05:22 AM »
Actually, it talked about the fact that the fact that as the frequencies go into the extreme highs and lows (mostly highs), it takes more db to be recognizable.  And sense a certain threshold hold of db = pain, hearing above 20kHz isn't very enjoyable to begin with.

Intermodulation distortion in the dog ear range can affect the human ear range, so 192/24 could actually be worse.  A way to solve that is to have an ultra-tweeter, but why?

Nyquist frequency = 192kHz / 2 = 96kHz and you only need a small pad over 20khz, so what's the point?

24 bit is used during the actual instrument recording process to give headroom to avoid digital distortion.  It is there for recording, not playback.

But I don't really pay attention to this stuff enough to feel confident in my summation.  I mostly use my ears.

So once again, 192/24 is bigger in file size, but not only is it not necessarily better, it can actually be worse.  (Article's words, not mine.)

As I said, DT12's HD version isn't using anywhere near those high frequencies, and isn't pounding your ears with high frequencies at loud volumes. It rolls off steadily as any professional recording does, and basically contains nothing above 30Khz at the most extreme. It gains enough to technically preserve the recording better, but I don't believe it would result in worse quality in any way vs the CD. The frequencies go high enough to utilize a tad higher than 48Khz sampling would allow (the next most common increment down), so I think the 96Khz sample rate is justified, if you don't mind using the storage space.

But nobody here is really arguing the HDTracks version's merits based on the sampling rate, it's just the matter of them using a different and better master. If they stuck that master on the CD, we'd all be just as happy. :tup
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2015, 07:05:39 AM »
Actually, it talked about the fact that the fact that as the frequencies go into the extreme highs and lows (mostly highs), it takes more db to be recognizable.  And sense a certain threshold hold of db = pain, hearing above 20kHz isn't very enjoyable to begin with.

Intermodulation distortion in the dog ear range can affect the human ear range, so 192/24 could actually be worse.  A way to solve that is to have an ultra-tweeter, but why?

Nyquist frequency = 192kHz / 2 = 96kHz and you only need a small pad over 20khz, so what's the point?

24 bit is used during the actual instrument recording process to give headroom to avoid digital distortion.  It is there for recording, not playback.

But I don't really pay attention to this stuff enough to feel confident in my summation.  I mostly use my ears.

So once again, 192/24 is bigger in file size, but not only is it not necessarily better, it can actually be worse.  (Article's words, not mine.)
As Blob said, nobody here cares about the sound definition. What we care about is the quality of the mastering. If DT are only going to release a satisfactorily mastered album on HD tracks, then that is where some people will choose to buy it.

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Calvin6s

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2015, 07:06:49 AM »
The better sound quality of the HDTracks version was entirely due to being a different master

Yes.  The article talks about that.  That a SACD might sound better than the CD counterpart simply because you are comparing apples to oranges at the source.

The article makes it sound like the HD tracks would be good to get (if they are indeed from the master recording, but not the mastered recording) with the high end (dog ear) cut off so your amplifier's THD doesn't allow the upper frequencies to intermodulate the lower (human ear) frequencies.

I'm sure there is another article that claims the exact opposite.

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2015, 07:12:11 AM »
The better sound quality of the HDTracks version was entirely due to being a different master

Yes.  The article talks about that.  That a SACD might sound better than the CD counterpart simply because you are comparing apples to oranges at the source.

The article makes it sound like the HD tracks would be good to get (if they are indeed from the master recording, but not the mastered recording) with the high end (dog ear) cut off so your amplifier's THD doesn't allow the upper frequencies to intermodulate the lower (human ear) frequencies.

I'm sure there is another article that claims the exact opposite.

Probably. :lol
I don't buy into the audiophile stuff, and make no claims either way, I just want the better master in whatever form it becomes available to us. Ideally, I'd like it to be what is used on the CD itself, but if it's only available from HDTracks, then that's what I'll get.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Calvin6s

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2015, 07:29:52 AM »
Ideally, I'd like it to be what is used on the CD itself, but if it's only available from HDTracks, then that's what I'll get.

The funny part is if you are older, you didn't grow up on massively compressed albums.  But if you are older, you are more likely to buy the CD.

So they should just make the CDs the digitally dynamic version, and the digital downloads should be the slammed master.

They got it reversed.  (Maybe that's why the music industry is dying.  It has nothing to do with torrents after all.)

Offline marlencrabapple

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2015, 07:49:24 AM »
I don't care much for the hi-res part, but I'd love if they used the same master they used for HD Tracks on their normal CD and digital releases. No reason why anyone needs to be stuck with a compressed staticy mess when a superior master exists.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2015, 08:09:37 AM »
I am happy that the good master is available for download because it gives access to us in ghe international market, who are killed by the price of the CDs.

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2015, 09:08:01 AM »
The funny part is if you are older, you didn't grow up on massively compressed albums.  But if you are older, you are more likely to buy the CD.

So they should just make the CDs the digitally dynamic version, and the digital downloads should be the slammed master.

They got it reversed.  (Maybe that's why the music industry is dying.  It has nothing to do with torrents after all.)

exactly. do it the Dan Swäno way: use the loudest master for the YouTube/iTunes/other digital retailer market, and sell the more dynamic master exactly the same (save bit depth and sample rate conversions) across the CD, vinyl, and HDTracks markets.

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2015, 10:06:59 AM »
I suspect more than a few of us here might not buy the next CD immediately next time around
I am definitely not buying the CD straight away, after the appalling experience with the sound of DT12 and subsequent HD tracks release. I will wait it out and then make a judgement. If reviews of the album's sound are good, I'll probably go and get it. If not, and reviews of the HD tracks are far more positive, I'll get those and then maybe buy a used copy of the CD much later on for the completionist in me.
Same here.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: DT HD Tracks, worth it?
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2015, 05:25:46 PM »
Ideally, I'd like it to be what is used on the CD itself, but if it's only available from HDTracks, then that's what I'll get.

The funny part is if you are older, you didn't grow up on massively compressed albums.  But if you are older, you are more likely to buy the CD.

So they should just make the CDs the digitally dynamic version, and the digital downloads should be the slammed master.

They got it reversed.  (Maybe that's why the music industry is dying.  It has nothing to do with torrents after all.)

This is an interesting point. Most younger people I know don't use CDs at all. It's all listening to music on youtube or downloading off itunes. Personally, I'm a bit of an OCD collector so I like having hard copys. I've been doing this with music CDs, movie DVDs (even have a decent collection of old VHS tapes  :xbones) and of course video games. I hate how everything's going digital, especially when there's limited licences or crap like that, like when you can only 'activate' a digital download 5 or so times before you don't even own it anymore, but I digress. I suppose the plus side is that it's very convenient, more accessible and lasts longer.

I also think torrents are pretty irrelevant because the people that download that stuff are not the people that were ever gonna shell out any money for what they're downloading anyway so I don't think it's anyone's loss, just more exposure in the end which can only be good.