Any love for BC&SL?

[bosk1]

On topic, I like the album, but rank it pretty low in the DT discography.  It is pretty much the only DT album where I find myself wanting to listen to particular songs, but never find myself really wanting to listen to the album.

[Grizz]

My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in.  As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD.  We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"

Inspiration corner which dates back at least as far as JR's tenure (not including the one-off)? And those bad lyrics written by John Petrucci?
And trust me, the RAWR is a step up from the original part.

[Rodni Demental]

What I like about Black Clouds & Silver Linings—and this is why I will never get the accusation that DT was getting stale or writing music on autopilot at this time—is that it really strives to create an atmosphere across the whole album that is distinct from that of other Dream Theater albums. People fawn on Awake for being atmospheric, and it undoubtedly is, but BCSL is just as atmospheric, if not more. The great thing about it is that the title of the album is the perfect descriptor for the atmosphere, too. The whole "dark-but-not-irredeemably-dark" vibe is actually rather gorgeous and pervades the album, especially A Nightmare to Remember, A Rite of Passage and The Count of Tuscany (which is not to say that the other songs don't adhere to this). And the album is of incredible quality. There is not a bad song on here. The Best of Times is my least favorite because it feels a little too long, but it's still excellent, and I don't know what could or should be removed from it anyway. All the rest of the songs are criminally underrated themselves. The Count of Tuscany is one of the very best songs Dream Theater ever wrote—I only rank it behind Breaking All Illusions and Octavarium. A Nightmare to Remember is also easily top ten material. The Shattered Fortress is my second favorite Twelve-Step Suite song behind This Dying Soul. Wither is one of the band's best ballads, and A Rite of Passage is actually an excellent song, in contrast to its popular perception.

Couldn't agree more!

I personally love BC&SL, though it may have something to do with it being my first DT album.

Yeah... Me too. I have no doubt that's something to do with it for me aswell. But.. I still can't comprehend how so many avid fans practically despise it in some cases 

[dragonmaster715]

interesting album rankings.

I like BCSL. I can't say I LOVE it, but I like it. ANTR is great, I don't really care for AROP, Wither is pretty good as far as ballads go, TBOT is pretty decent, and TCOT is a masterpiece. That is all my opinion of course.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

I enjoy the album, but it's ranked 11th. It seems to me the songs are waaay longer than they need to be to convey their stories about scary castle tour guides and free masonry . While there isn't a song I really dislike, TCOT and TSF are the only ones I listen to.

In general, I think almost every song overstays it's welcome, and I think it's quite cheesy. I'm not a big fan of fantasy-ish subject matter anyways, so that doesn't help Its case with me. I still think it has good melodies and riffs, and I just don't care for how they album is put together as a whole.

[jjrock88]

Its a very solid release.  Its not a go to DT disc for me, but I enjoy it once in awhile.

[?]

BC&SL was my first full-length DT album, but unfortunately time hasn't been kind to it. I rank it above Octavarium and SC, but I think it's like a combination of all the things that were wrong with DT before MP left:

-Overlong songs
Both ANTR and TBOT would've benefited a lot from being trimmed down. Ironically though, I have no problem with TCOT and it's the one song I keep coming back to on this album.

-Too much MP vocals
You already know which part I'm talking about Shouting words like "KINDNESS!" in TSF is pretty silly as well.

-Subpar lyrics and vocal lines
I think everything about the quality of the lyrics has been said already, but a lot of the time they also convey a totally different mood from the music ("everyone survived, roar!"). Some songs have pretty uninteresting vocal melodies (especially AROP), and it's clear that an actual singer wasn't involved in writing them, as it feels like the vocals were added as an afterthought and a necessary evil.

-Forced heaviness
I am a metal fan who listens to way heavier music than DT, and I like a lot of DT's metal songs, but on this album the heaviness feels kind of contrived and unnatural compared to TOT and songs like The Glass Prison and The Mirror. It's the more melodic stuff like TCOT, Wither, Beautiful Agony and parts of TBOT where DT get to shine here.

-Lack of band feeling
JM is doubling JP most of the time, a lot of Jordan's keyboard work is buried in the mix and James is singing vocal melodies and lyrics that he had no input on - all of this gives an "another day in the office" feeling.

-Some of DT's worst solos and instrumental sections
AROP - 'nuff said.

[BlobVanDam]

My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in.  As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD.  We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"

Inspiration corner which dates back at least as far as JR's tenure (not including the one-off)? And those bad lyrics written by John Petrucci?
And trust me, the RAWR is a step up from the original part.

I was just about to point some of that stuff out.
People criticize the fantasy lyrics, but all of those were written by JP. Forsaken, TDEN, ITPOE, and then the lyrics of ANTR, TCOT, and AROP that people criticize too. TDEN and ITPOE's lyrics were "inspired" by other literature. All of MP's lyrics on those two albums were quite personal to him, actually. There's no evidence that JP's lyrical direction had anything to do with MP's influence.

Most of this musical "inspiration corner" criticism on recent albums is baseless, and mostly based on a 10 second studio snippet from over a decade ago, and people just plain not enjoying DT's changing musical direction.
In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT, which I think is their freshest, greatest album, and I find their two most recent albums (especially ADTOE) to be their most bland and stale, so I'd be all for some "inspiration".

[Siddhartha]

I love the album. A Nightmare to remember, The Best of Times and The Count of Touscany to me are DT at his best.

How I miss DT sounding that good in studio.

[jingle.boy]

Once again, I feel the need to remind people of the forum rules.  You are all free to like or to dislike whatever you choose.  But criticism must be contructive.  Posts like the following are unacceptable:

*snip*

To quote the forum rules:  "12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

On topic, I like the album, but rank it pretty low in the DT discography.  It is pretty much the only DT album where I find myself wanting to listen to particular songs, but never find myself really wanting to listen to the album.

[King Postwhore]

I reach for it way more than SC and WDADU. Hell even TOT.

[jingle.boy]

I reach for it way more than SC and WDADU. Hell even TOT.

No you didn't.  *snap snap*

[King Postwhore]

*Shakes hip & finger*  Oh yes I did.



Of late yeah.  Can't explain it.

[hefdaddy42]

Can't explain it.

Me neither.

[King Postwhore]

Don't you have something to do like monitoring some youngsters or something?!

[hefdaddy42]

[Grizz]

In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT

Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.

[Skeever]

I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!

-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)

Dream Theater is a  band resting on there laurels?
I think its the band not doing the same old thing and changing things up by crafting a new sound. I think BC&SL was stale in that respect. The new album sounds fresh and different and that's a good thing.

That's how Rush has stayed relevant for 40 years. Just sayin...

'

Well sir, I am not a Rush fan, so no sympathy there!

[BlobVanDam]

In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT

Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.

I very well might be thinking of that video. I rank SFAM just as highly as SDOIT, and that's even older than SDOIT, so either way!

[King Postwhore]

Well Skeever, thats your problem then 

But seriously,  Rush is a good example.  They always sound like Rush but they tinker with their writing styles and their sound.  You last that long you always lose a certain amount of your fanbase that wants every album to sound like 2112.

[Setlist Scotty]

Personally, I like the album. I probably wouldn't rate it quite as highly as I did when it first came out, but I'd still probably put it in the upper half of the catalog.

The one thing that I just do not understand is all the hate for ARoP. The Bebot solo is rather annoying and a major misstep, IMO, but the rest of the song is good - especially the catchy chorus.

My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in.  As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD.  We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"

It's possible that MP was pushing DT in a specific direction, but I'll argue the point that if the rest of the band was not into it, then they would've pushed back, just as they did in September of 2010.

Inspiration corner is something that they always had from day one - it's only that people became familiar with it when they mentioned it around the time of the writing for SFaM and SDoIT. I don't know what all the albums in inspiration corner were for WDaDU, but I do know that Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime was one of them. And IIRC, JP brought in Rush's Hold Your Fire during the Awake sessions to reference some of Alex's clean guitar sounds. Oddly enough, BCaSL is the first album DT did where they specifically did NOT have an inspiration corner.

Lyrically, don't blame MP for most of it. Yeah, he wrote Constant Motion (about OCD), but as Grizz mentioned, you can thank JP for the "Dark Master", "Day after day" and "mah bruthah" lyrics.

[KevShmev]

I like this album quite a bit, but I, too, do not listen to it very much. 

Lyrically, I think it is arguably their least best album to date.  As much as I like The Count of Tuscany, the lyrics are just a bit too silly for me; The Shattered Fortress sounds like he basically recycled many of the lyrics from the previous 12-step songs; A Nightmare to Remember has the obvious corny lyrics; the sentiment expressed in The Best of Times is nice, the execution was not very good; etc.  Granted, DT's lyrics took a nosedive for a while in the mid to late 00s, but this album is where they hit rock bottom. 

Having said all of that, I still like five of the six songs enough to enjoy the hell out of them whenever I hear them.  A Rite of Passage is kind of a throwaway song; it's not bad, but I usually lose interest by the time the first chorus rolls around. 

[Kotowboy]

I think it's their last album with decent all around production.

[Tick]

I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!

-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)

Dream Theater is a  band resting on there laurels?
I think its the band not doing the same old thing and changing things up by crafting a new sound. I think BC&SL was stale in that respect. The new album sounds fresh and different and that's a good thing.

That's how Rush has stayed relevant for 40 years. Just sayin...

'

Well sir, I am not a Rush fan, so no sympathy there!

I can tell from this thread and the Mike Portnoy thread we are destined to be great pals!

Its cool, we don't have to agree, just respect. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany are still amazing.

I really got into The Shattered Fortress live, earlier this year.

I don't care much about the rest of the songs.

[Tick]

I think it's their last album with decent all around production.

I think the latest album just has better crafted songs, imo. BUT...I never met a DT album I didn't like so...

[Phoenix87x]

At one time DT was my favorite band on Earth and I pretty much refused to listen to anything else.

My interest began to wane a little bit with SC, but BC&SL is what put the nail in the coffin. I didn't listen to the band for almost a year after its release.

Now all that being said, ADTOE really rekindled my love for the band and the accompanying concert I would consider to be the best show I have ever seen in my life.

[Jaq]

Black Clouds is my least favorite DT album by miles. It's a collection of good to great parts and very few good to great songs, the lyrics are pretty dreadful. so even a song that is uniformly brilliant musically like TCOT falls flat, and I don't think I've played it since ADTOE came out. Actually like the covers disc better.

[mikemangioy]

Black Clouds for me is very inconsistent. That album has 6 songs:

- 2 are masterpieces  (A Nightmare To Remember and The Count Of Tuscany)
- 2 are great songs (Wither and The Best Of Times)
- 1 is a total rip-off from the other albums, but it's good nontheless (The Shattered Fortress)
and then there's A Rite Of Passage which IMO might be one of the worst song they wrote. But it's alright.

I basically like just half the album , not good for DT standards.

[kirksnosehair]

In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT

Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.

I suppose I could be remembering it incorrectly, but I seem to recall "inspiration corner" most prominently around the time of Octavarium, which I consider among the weakest albums they've released to date. 


And obviously I don't hold MP responsible for JP's lyrics.  I'm simply not very fond of the last few albums with Portnoy and really believe they got back on track without his infuence. 

[Grizz]

they would've pushed back, just as they did in September of 2010.

I agree with much of this post but I don't recall this from any account.

Also, just for clarity I think that the RORO part was Mike's idea as a replacement for JLB's unfitting slow vocals that JP originally called for.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

BC&SL is not a bad record, but it's not a stand-out for DT either. These days I usually stick to the classics: I&W, Awake, SFAM, SDOIT, DT12, and the great individual tracks from other albums.

[rumborak]

BCSL was the best late-MP album to me. I quite like TCOT, despite the silly lyrics. It has a really nice ebb and flow to it.

[Zook]

In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT

Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.

I suppose I could be remembering it incorrectly, but I seem to recall "inspiration corner" most prominently around the time of Octavarium, which I consider among the weakest albums they've released to date. 


And obviously I don't hold MP responsible for JP's lyrics.  I'm simply not very fond of the last few albums with Portnoy and really believe they got back on track without his infuence. 

Yeah I remember watching a studio clip from the SDOIT days and MP had a bunch of CDs lined up and among them was none other than Tool's Aenema.

[The Letter M]

They've been wearing their influences on their sleeves all of their career, with Rush and Queensryche at the start of their discography, and even through the Awake/ACOS-era:

The band did a distorted version of the song at some shows, which some fans have called "Caught in Alice's Nine Inch Tool Garden" for it's influences of Alice in Chains, Nine Inch Nails, Tool and Soundgarden. The distorted version became the basis of many musical themes for New Millenium. The two songs were eventually melded into Caught in a New Millenium.

I think they've had an "inspiration corner" for a LONG time, but were never really vocal about it until the SFAM/SDOIT-days. I'm sure there were some major influences during FII considering how different that album sounds compared to their first three.

-Marc.